No I didn't get it, missed Black Flag as well. Why is the WSM writing about ineffectual post-leftist groups that only have three men and a dog in them anyway? ;)
But I never put out a dodgy left-communist freesheet?
You had a primitivist one?
Anyway wrong reason. Its more that although all three of these related groupings may consist of 3 men and a photocopier type groups (although I guess in the modern world the web site had replaced the photocopier for the younger ones) with no future but their ideas can have a seriously distorting effect on the anarchist movement that results in sections of it being useless or worse. Or that in critiquing them you can get anarchists to accept critiques they wouldn't consider if aimed more directly at their own ideas. I've not yet read the left communist article but that was pretty transparently part of the other two articles.
But I never put out a dodgy left-communist freesheet?
You had a primitivist one?
Anyway wrong reason. Its more that although all three of these related groupings may consist of 3 men and a photocopier type groups (although I guess in the modern world the web site had replaced the photocopier for the younger ones) with no future but their ideas can have a seriously distorting effect on the anarchist movement that results in sections of it being useless or worse. Or that in critiquing them you can get anarchists to accept critiques they wouldn't consider if aimed more directly at their own ideas. I've not yet read the left communist article but that was pretty transparently part of the other two articles.
Well I don't have a copy :( but it'd be a shame if you left Miasnikov and some of the other early left communists out of the discussion and just hammered the ICC with no context. Hopefully it's a bit better than that. Will this be online at any point?
That would hardly be the style of Red & Black Revolution, an article like that wouldn't make it through the editorial collective.
The PDF normally goes online about 2 months after publication to allow for re-couping of some of the printing costs so I'd guess it should be online in the new year. There have been difficulties getting all the printed material online this year though so maybe not.
The archive of previous issues is at http://www.wsm.ie/rbr
The most 'in the news' article is now online Modernisation, authoritarianism & political islam
Turkey has been under the spotlight this year, due to the threats of the Army against the possibility of an Islamist party taking the presidency. This move came to pose a number of questions to the European establishment, as Turkey has been negotiating its entry to the EU. The apparently uneasy two alternatives of government in Turkey are political Islam or the old fashioned authoritarian Kemalist secularism, which has the army as its vigilante sector of the ruling block.
The most 'in the news' article is now online Modernisation, authoritarianism & political islam
Turkey has been under the spotlight this year, due to the threats of the Army against the possibility of an Islamist party taking the presidency. This move came to pose a number of questions to the European establishment, as Turkey has been negotiating its entry to the EU. The apparently uneasy two alternatives of government in Turkey are political Islam or the old fashioned authoritarian Kemalist secularism, which has the army as its vigilante sector of the ruling block.
I haven't read the Turkey article yet (the WSM were kind enough to e-mail me a copy earlier), but I do note that it was written by Ender Yilmaz, who occasionally posts as miasnikov_perm on here. As he has been/still is denying that there will be a war, it will be interesting to read what he has to say.
I have read the Left communism article, which in my opinion was reasoned, and considered. There were very few factual errors, but unfortunately one of them seems to be the base of the conclusion. I will wait till it is published before commenting, and try to read Ender's piece today.
George, they said don't comment till it is on line.
The WSM were kind enough to give us advance copies of those articles, and we are grateful for that.
Unfortunately one of the articles got reproduced on a Turkish website, due to comrades not knowing where it came from reading the inbox on our mail, and wanting to discuss it.
I don't think that it will effect your sales. Maybe a bit of controversy will increase them.
I want to stress that we were grateful to the WSM for giving us advance copies of those articles, and we didn't try to act in bad faith in any way.
I haven't read the Turkey article yet (the WSM were kind enough to e-mail me a copy earlier), but I do note that it was written by Ender Yilmaz, who occasionally posts as miasnikov_perm on here. As he has been/still is denying that there will be a war, it will be interesting to read what he has to say.
the article is a little bit outdated and not much about the war issue, but still readable since most of it was a historical summary.
i am planning to write a new article for anarkismo covering especially the last 2 years. of course if i have enough time and motivation.
in solidarity
I've read the Red and Black. It helped keep me happy on the way home on the train from the Bookfair.
I thought the article on the Left Communists was a good one. It seemed well researched. It was interesting for what ti didn't discuss as much as what it did. However, it correctly pointed out that the KAPD were part of a mass movement with hundreds of thousands of members in the industrial wing - not just 3 guys a dog and a photocopier!
No feel free to comment. I'm one of the editors and as soon as the article is in the public domain I think we're happy to have it discussed. At least I see absolutely no reason that we wouldn't be happy to do that. If you want I can put it up online today and then you can discuss it.
So far I think it looks interesting and well argued.
Suprisingly I thought the article on 'Left Communism' was a pretty good summary in such a short space. I liked the connections loosely made with the approach of the Dyelo Truda group and Platformism. I also found myself agreeing with the conclusions on a quick reading, but if the author thinks this might lead on to some justification for the WSM's approach to 'political campaigning' I think they are mistaken.
My suspicians are with the usual 'weve got to get stuck down into the grit' stuff 'with all it's contradictions'. It isn't difficult to agree with this but what does it mean in practice? Perhaps developing a reform program for the capitalist state, I mean not just a minimum and maximum programme old style, but as the Irish Health Care article at least implies, a minimum, medium and maximum programme??
It is a sad fact that pro revolutionaries are not in a position to connect revolutionary aspirations to every expression of class struggle in a practical way.
In the qoutes from Marx more emphasis should be placed perhaps on the reference to the 'whole course of previous history' We do have to learn from history and the general approach of 'left communism' (and some anarchists) in opposition to Parliament, trade unionism, national liberation and reformism is such a lesson, even if it has sometimes been reduced by certain groups to the level of a doctrine. We need to be flexible enough in our strategy and tactics to adapt to different situations and times without abandoning such important lessons.
So far I think it looks interesting and well argued.
Suprisingly I thought the article on 'Left Communism' was a pretty good summary in such a short space. I liked the connections loosely made with the approach of the Dyelo Truda group and Platformism. I also found myself agreeing with the conclusions on a quick reading, but if the author thinks this might lead on to some justification for the WSM's approach to 'political campaigning' I think they are mistaken.
Glad to hear you liked it. Although i'm not sure what you mean by "the WSM's approach to 'political campaigning' ".
My suspicians are with the usual 'weve got to get stuck down into the grit' stuff 'with all it's contradictions'. It isn't difficult to agree with this but what does it mean in practice? Perhaps developing a reform program for the capitalist state, I mean not just a minimum and maximum programme old style, but as the Irish Health Care article at least implies, a minimum, medium and maximum programme??
It is a sad fact that pro revolutionaries are not in a position to connect revolutionary aspirations to every expression of class struggle in a practical way.
Again I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that we shouldn't call for reforms with the Irish health service? Or are you praising the attempt to see a way of calling for reforms to the Irish health service?
If the former, are you oppossed to all 'reform program[s] for the capitalist state'? If so are you oppossed to all reforms?
I agree fully with the last sentence, but I'm not sure if you are saying it in a fatalistic way or if you are saying 'well done to the WSM for trying to 'connect revolutionary aspirations to every expression of class struggle in a practical way.'
In the qoutes from Marx more emphasis should be placed perhaps on the reference to the 'whole course of previous history' We do have to learn from history and the general approach of 'left communism' (and some anarchists) in opposition to Parliament, trade unionism, national liberation and reformism is such a lesson, even if it has sometimes been reduced by certain groups to the level of a doctrine. We need to be flexible enough in our strategy and tactics to adapt to different situations and times without abandoning such important lessons.
I definitely wouldn't deny this. If there was nothing to be learnt from left communism, then the article wouldn't have been written.
Sorry if my comments were not obvious in saying that the article on the Irish Health Service, whilst interesting, appeared to me to be the WSM promoting full blown reform programmes of the sort common on the left, and potentially the start of winning support on that basis, which is fine if you are a reformist organisation but not if you claim to be pro-revolutionary. To be even clearer I do not believe it is the job of pro-revolutionaries to propose means of running the capitalist state more efficiently and seeking support on that basis. This is not the same as saying every reform is anti working class and should be opposed, of course, but means arguing consistently that there is no way forward for the working class through reformism.
Beyond that it is a recognition that the situation the working class is in today means that the opportrunities for organised resistance cannot simply repeat the methods and structures of the past. My reference to your emmerging minimum, medium and maximum programmes was a slight jest, referring back to the long outdated minimum and maximum programmes of early Social Democracy.
The WSM's emmerging attempts to provide 'practical' links between the 'struggle as it is' and the movement towards communism via reform programmes seems little different than the approach of much of the leninist left, though I do credit you (and not they) with a genuine understanding of and desire for libertarian communism in the long term.
You say you agree with the need to learn historical lessons and that there are lessons to be learnt from 'left communism' but I am not sure that your article was clear on what lessons you might broadly share with any of the original left communists (of any variety ) or modern day inheritors of 'left communism'. You seem to draw some vague organisational conclusions but do not share any of the 'lessons' in respect of trade unionism, reformism or national liberation. Presumably you can agree on antiparliamentarianism?
No I didn't get it, missed
No I didn't get it, missed Black Flag as well. Why is the WSM writing about ineffectual post-leftist groups that only have three men and a dog in them anyway? ;)
Probably for the same reason
Probably for the same reason that we've written about insurrectionalists and primitivists.
guydebordisdead wrote: But
guydebordisdead
You had a primitivist one?
Anyway wrong reason. Its more that although all three of these related groupings may consist of 3 men and a photocopier type groups (although I guess in the modern world the web site had replaced the photocopier for the younger ones) with no future but their ideas can have a seriously distorting effect on the anarchist movement that results in sections of it being useless or worse. Or that in critiquing them you can get anarchists to accept critiques they wouldn't consider if aimed more directly at their own ideas. I've not yet read the left communist article but that was pretty transparently part of the other two articles.
JoeBlack2
JoeBlack2
Well I don't have a copy :( but it'd be a shame if you left Miasnikov and some of the other early left communists out of the discussion and just hammered the ICC with no context. Hopefully it's a bit better than that. Will this be online at any point?
That would hardly be the
That would hardly be the style of Red & Black Revolution, an article like that wouldn't make it through the editorial collective.
The PDF normally goes online about 2 months after publication to allow for re-couping of some of the printing costs so I'd guess it should be online in the new year. There have been difficulties getting all the printed material online this year though so maybe not.
The archive of previous issues is at http://www.wsm.ie/rbr
JoeBlack2 wrote: That would
JoeBlack2
Good good.
you can probably get a copy
you can probably get a copy of dara. if he's a good revolutionary he should bring a bunch back to ol blighty with him next weekend.
I have some already. Let me
I have some already. Let me know and I'll save one for you.
The most 'in the news'
The most 'in the news' article is now online
Modernisation, authoritarianism & political islam
Turkey has been under the spotlight this year, due to the threats of the Army against the possibility of an Islamist party taking the presidency. This move came to pose a number of questions to the European establishment, as Turkey has been negotiating its entry to the EU. The apparently uneasy two alternatives of government in Turkey are political Islam or the old fashioned authoritarian Kemalist secularism, which has the army as its vigilante sector of the ruling block.
Quote: can have a seriously
you mean left communism?
do you believe in any kind of historical narrative, and if not why do you think communism will be stable? [/poorly worded derail]
:)
JoeBlack2 wrote: The most
JoeBlack2
I haven't read the Turkey article yet (the WSM were kind enough to e-mail me a copy earlier), but I do note that it was written by Ender Yilmaz, who occasionally posts as miasnikov_perm on here. As he has been/still is denying that there will be a war, it will be interesting to read what he has to say.
I have read the Left communism article, which in my opinion was reasoned, and considered. There were very few factual errors, but unfortunately one of them seems to be the base of the conclusion. I will wait till it is published before commenting, and try to read Ender's piece today.
Devrim
It has been published so
It has been published so feel free to comment away.
Unless you meant published
Unless you meant published on line but I don't see why that should matter.
George, they said don't
George, they said don't comment till it is on line.
The WSM were kind enough to give us advance copies of those articles, and we are grateful for that.
Unfortunately one of the articles got reproduced on a Turkish website, due to comrades not knowing where it came from reading the inbox on our mail, and wanting to discuss it.
I don't think that it will effect your sales. Maybe a bit of controversy will increase them.
I want to stress that we were grateful to the WSM for giving us advance copies of those articles, and we didn't try to act in bad faith in any way.
Apologises,
Devrim
I bought a copy but I
I bought a copy but I haven't read it yet.
Devrim wrote: I haven't
Devrim
the article is a little bit outdated and not much about the war issue, but still readable since most of it was a historical summary.
i am planning to write a new article for anarkismo covering especially the last 2 years. of course if i have enough time and motivation.
in solidarity
I've read the Red and Black.
I've read the Red and Black. It helped keep me happy on the way home on the train from the Bookfair.
I thought the article on the Left Communists was a good one. It seemed well researched. It was interesting for what ti didn't discuss as much as what it did. However, it correctly pointed out that the KAPD were part of a mass movement with hundreds of thousands of members in the industrial wing - not just 3 guys a dog and a photocopier!
Definitely recommended.
Hi Devrim, No feel free to
Hi Devrim,
No feel free to comment. I'm one of the editors and as soon as the article is in the public domain I think we're happy to have it discussed. At least I see absolutely no reason that we wouldn't be happy to do that. If you want I can put it up online today and then you can discuss it.
Also glad to hear you liked the mag knightrose.
Only part way through the
Only part way through the latest edition.
So far I think it looks interesting and well argued.
Suprisingly I thought the article on 'Left Communism' was a pretty good summary in such a short space. I liked the connections loosely made with the approach of the Dyelo Truda group and Platformism. I also found myself agreeing with the conclusions on a quick reading, but if the author thinks this might lead on to some justification for the WSM's approach to 'political campaigning' I think they are mistaken.
My suspicians are with the usual 'weve got to get stuck down into the grit' stuff 'with all it's contradictions'. It isn't difficult to agree with this but what does it mean in practice? Perhaps developing a reform program for the capitalist state, I mean not just a minimum and maximum programme old style, but as the Irish Health Care article at least implies, a minimum, medium and maximum programme??
It is a sad fact that pro revolutionaries are not in a position to connect revolutionary aspirations to every expression of class struggle in a practical way.
In the qoutes from Marx more emphasis should be placed perhaps on the reference to the 'whole course of previous history' We do have to learn from history and the general approach of 'left communism' (and some anarchists) in opposition to Parliament, trade unionism, national liberation and reformism is such a lesson, even if it has sometimes been reduced by certain groups to the level of a doctrine. We need to be flexible enough in our strategy and tactics to adapt to different situations and times without abandoning such important lessons.
Spikymike wrote: Only part
Spikymike
Glad to hear you liked it. Although i'm not sure what you mean by "the WSM's approach to 'political campaigning' ".
Again I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that we shouldn't call for reforms with the Irish health service? Or are you praising the attempt to see a way of calling for reforms to the Irish health service?
If the former, are you oppossed to all 'reform program[s] for the capitalist state'? If so are you oppossed to all reforms?
I agree fully with the last sentence, but I'm not sure if you are saying it in a fatalistic way or if you are saying 'well done to the WSM for trying to 'connect revolutionary aspirations to every expression of class struggle in a practical way.'
I definitely wouldn't deny this. If there was nothing to be learnt from left communism, then the article wouldn't have been written.
Sorry if my comments were
Sorry if my comments were not obvious in saying that the article on the Irish Health Service, whilst interesting, appeared to me to be the WSM promoting full blown reform programmes of the sort common on the left, and potentially the start of winning support on that basis, which is fine if you are a reformist organisation but not if you claim to be pro-revolutionary. To be even clearer I do not believe it is the job of pro-revolutionaries to propose means of running the capitalist state more efficiently and seeking support on that basis. This is not the same as saying every reform is anti working class and should be opposed, of course, but means arguing consistently that there is no way forward for the working class through reformism.
Beyond that it is a recognition that the situation the working class is in today means that the opportrunities for organised resistance cannot simply repeat the methods and structures of the past. My reference to your emmerging minimum, medium and maximum programmes was a slight jest, referring back to the long outdated minimum and maximum programmes of early Social Democracy.
The WSM's emmerging attempts to provide 'practical' links between the 'struggle as it is' and the movement towards communism via reform programmes seems little different than the approach of much of the leninist left, though I do credit you (and not they) with a genuine understanding of and desire for libertarian communism in the long term.
You say you agree with the need to learn historical lessons and that there are lessons to be learnt from 'left communism' but I am not sure that your article was clear on what lessons you might broadly share with any of the original left communists (of any variety ) or modern day inheritors of 'left communism'. You seem to draw some vague organisational conclusions but do not share any of the 'lessons' in respect of trade unionism, reformism or national liberation. Presumably you can agree on antiparliamentarianism?
discussion of left communism
discussion of left communism piece moved here:
http://libcom.org/forums/thought/left-communism-its-ideology-now-online-21122007