Things are really heating up in Libya.
Here's just from one Twitter feed. Sorry for the crappy formatting.
ShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
and this is what has happened for the past two days (going out evening) but I hear the numbers are increasing #Libya #Feb17
3 minutes agoShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
and some of the airforce in the skies, we in libya go out late afternoon and sunset, so this is when protesters are coming out..
3 minutes agoShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
but god help us, it was limited to central benghazi but now its spreading all over, mainly through deprived areas, there is helicopters ...
4 minutes agoShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
they are doing their best to kill our spirits and the motivation, we know we can not stop, coz if he remains we are first in the black list
5 minutes agoShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
arrest us one by one when we turn away, they beat you first so you are unconscious, then take them to tripoli and elsewhere #Libya #Feb17
6 minutes agoShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
they caught a lot of us who appeared on videos from the night before, there are ppl undercover between us hiding in between cars and..
8 minutes agoShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
contact: I spoke to my friend in central Benghazi, he said so many were arrested, and trapped in the corners of central Benghazi cont
9 minutes agoShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
shocking account from a resident in #Benghazi we just spoke to #Libya #Feb17 #gaddafi crimes: as follows..
10 minutes agoShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
contacts in benghazi: 'we need to write accounts urgently' to @AJArabic watch your site, you will receive accounts shortly #Libya #Feb17
17 minutes agoShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
@
@EEE_Libya Try to protest through the streets chanting for #Tripoli to come out #Libya #Feb17
19 minutes agoShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
confirmed: 400 in the streets of #Tripoli, come on guys let it snowball #Libya #Feb17
20 minutes agoShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
@
@almanaralibya I have emails for BBC and Jazeera, they need videos and pictures asap, please tell the ppl uploading #Libya #Feb17
21 minutes ago
»ShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
the last we have from Ajdabiya is 4 ppl killed by sniper fire, we need info from there asap #Libya #Feb17 #Libya is at war with its regime
24 minutes ago
http://twitter.com/#!/ShababLibya
I was following el jezira. A
I was following el jezira. A reporter from libya told that the regime freed some prisoners giving them money and weapons to attack protesters. It seems there is indifferent shooting going on in the streets too
Website with updates about
Website with updates about Libyan uprising.
http://www.libyafeb17.com/
The news coming out is really grim; death toll is already big. That fucker Qadafy will try everything to stay in power.
Comment by the
Comment by the Arabist.
Issandr el Amrani
Isn't there a good chance
Isn't there a good chance that the US would back, from the very beginning, a political movement against Qadafy? Quite different from Tunisia and Egypt.
Any different from Iran?
Any different from Iran?
Quote: Isn't there a good
I would assume so, but from what I've read they've been silent. They're probably trying to figure out what the heck is going on. Hard to figure out what is going on there.
Live
Live coverage
http://www.justin.tv/sama_libya#/w/876099168
Edit: it's in arabic.
Samotnaf wrote: Isn't there a
Samotnaf
isn't he a goodie in the war on terror now?
Surely it's spelt Gaddafi
Surely it's spelt Gaddafi anyway?
Yorkie Bar wrote: Surely it's
Yorkie Bar
I read somewhere that his name can be romanised in a whole load of different ways. One article listed 37 different spelling variations.
But I think Gaddafi is the most common.
Since it's transliterated, it
Since it's transliterated, it can be spelt in a number of ways. Qadaffy, Khadafi, Gadaffi, whatever.
Go-dafty?
Go-dafty?
I saw one Libyan Tweet
I saw one Libyan Tweet describe him as 'The Daffy'.
Probably just another self-given title to add to the list...
Both the US and Britain,
Both the US and Britain, though there are differences between them, have supported the Libyan regime in the "war on terror" and as a regional policeman. That could change given the increase in instability but Bahrain is indicative of their hypocrisy and double-dealing
Seems like the Libyan regime
Seems like the Libyan regime are using their equivalent of Baltagiya. Uprisings all over the country, though seems to be concentrated in the East and in Tripoli.
On Twitter in the last few
On Twitter in the last few minutes
http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Feb17
http://twitter.com/search?q=%23libya
Arms sales to
Arms sales to Libya
Al Jazeera liveblog Edit:
Al Jazeera liveblog
Edit: some rather sparse information from Al Jazeera today:
The death toll Quote: The
The death toll
Limited information coming
Limited information coming out on Twitter today
http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Feb17
http://twitter.com/search?q=%23libya
Guardian live
Guardian live updates
Mark above details the sale
Mark above details the sale of "crowd control" arms from Britain to Libya and these (as in Bahrain) include sniper rifles. Two nights ago, a sniper on top of government buildings was reported shooting protesters.
This again underlines that the enemy is at home (as far as Britain is concerned in this case) and the enemy is our own bourgeoisie. Both Labour and the Conservatives have provided these regimes with the weaponry and the know-how for their murderous repression. I have relatives living in this country and they have told me of the public executions, shown on television, of the "enemies of the state", that once again, democratic governments are complicit in.
Apparently Reuters is
Apparently Reuters is corroborating the report that control of the city of Al-Bayda has been siezed by anti-government protestors.
http://twitter.com/search?q=%
http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Feb17
http://twitter.com/search?q=%23libya
BBC live updates Quote: 1233:
BBC live updates
(No subject)
[youtube]Ud9XuqVV_Js[/youtube]
Reports coming in that people
Reports coming in that people from Bayda are leaving for Bengazi in order to help the people there fight off Mercenaries:
Also, other reports are saying that the city of Dernah just along the coast has also been taken by protestors.
Things seem to be moving pretty rapidly.
Looks like there's full-on
Looks like there's full-on armed insurrection in Libya. Reports of Soldiers and police joining the protesters (though at this point 'rebels' might be a more apt term).
Seems like large parts of East Libya could now be under the control of protesters/Anti-Ghaddafi forces. Protestors from various cities are now converging on Bengazi...
From protests to flying
From protests to flying columns. Bloody hell.
http://twitter.com/libyanfsl/
http://twitter.com/libyanfsl/status/38618376398061569
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
From an interview with Ahmed
From an interview with Ahmed el Gasir (presumably Libyan), of the NGO Human Rights Solidarity, by swissinfo.ch
«Les Libyens ont brisé la barrière de la peur»
From the Reuters roundup,
From the Reuters roundup, clarifies who the guy being interviewed above is (and why by the Swiss)
This comes from the link
This comes from the link below for those who read Italian
I manifestanti anti-governativi, con l'appoggio di alcuni poliziotti che hanno deciso di disertare, sarebbero riusciti a sopraffare le forze di sicurezza libiche e ad assumere il controllo di Beida, in Cirenaica, terza citta' del Paese per importanza: a sostenerlo sono due diverse organizzazioni dell'opposizione in esilio, entrambe con sede a Ginevra. "Beida e' nelle mani del popolo", ha dichiarato Giumma el-Omami del gruppo 'Libyan Human Rights Solidarity' .
For those who don't this says that "some police have decided to desert seesm to have succeeded in overcoming the Libyan security forces and taken control of Beida (Al Baida I think it appears as in other links) in Cyrenaica, thrid ctiy of the country. the source appears to be two Libyan exile organisations based in Geneva.
Following things on Twitter
Following things on Twitter at the moment. Hard to tell what is fact and what is over-excited rumour, but serious shit is going down either way...
One tweet claims that the
One tweet claims that the protesters/rebels have taken over Bengazi's radio station and are using it to broadcast propaganda and plan protest.
There was also an unconfirmed rumour that Ghaddaffi's sister had fled to Germany with her children.
From
From Twitter:
This is the second or third time I've seen this tweeted from different sources. If so, things in Libya may get even more mental than they already are.
According to Twitter, Saa'di
According to Twitter, Saa'di al-Gaddafi has been arrested in by protesters in Bengazi. Not entirely confirmed yet, but it's coming in from a whole lot of different sources.
Amazing if true.
On Twitter. As Auto says it's
On Twitter. As Auto says it's hard to tell fact from rumour. In the end the most important thing here is probably what is happening in the capital Tripoli which came late to the protests.
Guardian report
Al Jazeera
From the Guardian live
From the Guardian live updates
From the Libya February 17th
From the Libya February 17th site
Special forces attacked a
Special forces attacked a protest camp in Benghazi last night, reports of 35 people killed.
Guardian live updates
Al Jazeera
USA today
Reports on Twitter, may be
Reports on Twitter, may be unconfirmed
http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Feb17
http://twitter.com/search?q=%23libya
Facebook page for demos in
Facebook page for demos in support of the Libyans
The ex-British ambassador to
The ex-British ambassador to Libya was on the BBC this morning after talking to his contacts in the country and reports, confirming stuff above, that some of the regimes' revolutionary committee buildings and police stations have been burnt down and that some revolutionary committee members and the police have joined the demonstrators. Soldiers and two APC's also went over to join the protests. This is all in the east of the country which has an anti-Gadafi base and one of his sons has sent plane loads of militia. Tripoli is still relatively quiet.
CNN Quote: Helicopters fired
CNN
http://twitter.com/search?q=%
http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Feb17
Edited to add:
BBC report and video
BBC report and video
Claim just now on Twitter, no
Claim just now on Twitter, no idea if this is true or not, possibly rumour put out by regime?
Edit: this report is likely to be false - see Khawaga's comment below.
On Twitter Quote: Just
On Twitter
On Twitter - again no
On Twitter - again no guarantees of accuracy. The news from Tripoli and from Misrata, also in western Libya, is important.
Report from Tripoli this morning
On Twitter Quote: Benghazi
On Twitter
Audio report from Tripoli
Audio report from Tripoli
Someone on Wikipedia actually
Someone on Wikipedia actually worked out an equation on that. As it turned out, there's 2608 ways to transliterate his name in English. I'm not sure which is weirder: the fact that there's 2608 ways to spell his name, or the fact that someone knows or cares enough to figure that out.
(No subject)
[youtube]tmSKHo_R-V0[/youtube]
Who are the guys with yellow
Who are the guys with yellow hats - the flown-in security forces or demonstrators? Whatever the case the regime is unleashing terror.
The guys with yellow hats are
The guys with yellow hats are security forces, I think these are the ones being described as mercenaries. According to the guy being interviewed they were taken off the streets after a day or two.
Thanks Mark. You're doing a
Thanks Mark. You're doing a great job by the way.
Mark. Regarding the bombing
Mark. Regarding the bombing of al Bedia; it might be scare stories put out. I've seen several msgs like that on Twitter regarding other cities. They're mostly in Arabic and when I request translations from the Libyans I follow they refuse because they don't want to spread rumours (I get others to translate instead, but I don't share them out of respect).
Now, having said that I wouldn't be surprised if Qadaffi did bomb cities. He's used chemical weapons against insurgents in the area before (Green Mountain/ Jabal Akhdar has always been the source of rebellions; it was where Omar al-Mukhtar conducted his guerilla campaign against the Italians), has personally killed people in Tobruk (I think it was Tobruk) and generally fucked over the east. If he were to do something like that message says it would be in the east.
Khawaga - I think you're
Khawaga - I think you're right and I was in two minds about whether to post it up. I haven't seen this particular rumour re-tweeted.
A couple of unconfirmed
A couple of unconfirmed reports from Tripoli on Twitter
Also from Benghazi
Reports from Tripoli tonight:
Reports from Tripoli tonight: http://www.libyafeb17.com/?cat=3
This may be the best link to follow for reliable updates
Mark. wrote: Also from
Mark.
Apparently they blew a hole in the wall with explosives. Pretty fucking intense.
Also it's rumoured that one of Ghaddaffi's nephews was killed when protesters stormed the base (possibly from the explosion), though that wasn't confirmed.
Report from yesterday. I
[youtube]uD8NPeJ7vGM[/youtube]
Report from yesterday. I can't find much confirmed information on what is happening now.
International media seems to
International media seems to be pretty much ignoring things in Libya beyond quibbling over bodycount because they can't get journalists in on the ground (or aren't willing to attempt it).
I can see the problems they
I can see the problems they have reporting it, but maybe this is just an extreme example of them being complicit in official attempts at media management.
Guardian Quote: 12.01pm
Guardian
The situation in
The situation in Tripoli
Al Jazeera Quote: 2:10 pm
Al Jazeera
Twitter: Quote: ShababLibya:
Twitter:
It seems like Tripoli really is the key.
Also, Ghaddaffi really is a complete and total headcase. Even by Dictatorial standards.
I think what we are seeing in
I think what we are seeing in Libya is of special international importance. If Khadaffi gets away with this and succeeds in crushing the revolt throught these particular methods, other dictators will feel emboldened, and may copy his methods. If he is overtrown quickly, no dictator is secure anymore (I have seen speculations about N.Korea and Burma already). But there is a third scenario, a horrible comparison looming in my mind: Somalia after the overthrow of dictator Barre, in 1991...
ShababLibya on Twitter is
ShababLibya on Twitter is saying that the Birka barracks have now surrendered. Apparently they are trying to negotiate free passage to the airport, with the Bengazi youth saying they're not going to let them leave without a fight. Not surprising given how many people they've murdered...
Also is it me or are the
Also is it me or are the western Media deliberately trying to portray the Libyans as mere 'victims'? Of course many hundreds have been killed, but if you went by the media narrative you'd think that this was a case of completely helpless people being slaughtered by a government. Hardly a single mention of the fact that the people have been actively fighting back.
Twitter: Quote: ShababLibya:
Twitter:
Apparently a brigade of
Apparently a brigade of soldiers mutinied and helped the people take control of Birka army barracks.
Auto: Quote: Of course many
Auto:
I thank that is a valid and important point.Victims can be expected to behave, and be grateful for the help thay may get (not that they are getting much...). They pose no danger to the powers that be. Peolpe liberating themselves from dictatorship? Now, that is a bit more subversive.. This is another important reason why spreading info on people fighting back is important. It helps shatter this picture of people-as-only-victims.
Regarding the media: likely
Regarding the media: likely they are not reporting because they have no one on the ground. I used to go to Libya for work occasionally and we regularly wanted to get in reporters to write about the development projects and the commercial ventures the company I worked for was involved in. It was nearly impossible to get anyone in; it would take about 6 months for a reporter to actually get a visa for a journalist and when they were there they would have a government minder literally attached to their ass. Typically the visas were valid for a few weeks only. Thus, compared to Egypt (well Cairo), which is often the main office for the Middle East and/or North Africa for a lot of international media, there just weren't any journos there when it happened. To top that off, journalists are very lazy. They rely on fixers to do most of their work; to get in touch with people, to go places etc. There would be nothing of the sort in Libya, only govt. minders. Because of all of this (and more, like most intl correspondents have been laid off; companies reliying more and more on wire services etc.) Libya has been more or less ignored for a long long time, unless it was about Lockerbie or the odd oil contract handed to some Western company.
Now, I am not trying to excuse Western media, only to give an explanation for why there is silence. There is nothing stopping anyone now from going in. If some independent journo wanted to get in they could go the land route from Egypt, or, if the reports are true that Benghazi is liberated, they could fly in there.
Self-oganization in Benghazi
Self-oganization in Benghazi (from Twitter).
Al Jazeera Quote: 9:55 pm
Al Jazeera
http://www.libyafeb17.com/?p=
http://www.libyafeb17.com/?p=1223
Al Jazeera Quote: 10:30 pm
Al Jazeera
Apparently the biggest tribe
Apparently the biggest tribe in Libya has come out against Ghaddaffi.
Also Quote: Al Jazeera:
Also
http://www.libyafeb17.com/?p=
http://www.libyafeb17.com/?p=1223
BBC Quote: At least four
BBC
Al Jazeera Quote: 11:30 pm Al
Al Jazeera
All over by
All over by tomorrow?
http://www.libyafeb17.com/?p=1223
From Twitter: Quote: RT
From Twitter:
It looks to me as if the tactic of all-out violent repression isn't working for Ghaddafi. It seems to have turned a lot of people/tribes away from him and it has given the protesters more impetus to push forward (i.e. it's either us or him).
It just looks like he hasn't got enough bullets and mercenaries to kill all of them.
Al Jazeera Quote: 11:54 pm:
Al Jazeera
Quote: Eyewitness in #Libya:
I read reports that the mercenaries have plenty of bullets, but no food and water...
http://www.libyafeb17.com/?p=
http://www.libyafeb17.com/?p=1223
Religious leader Shaikh
Religious leader Shaikh AsSadiq Al Gheryani, speaking to Al Jazeera
The Libyan ambassador to
The Libyan ambassador to China has just resigned from his post live on AlJazeera Arabic and declared his support for the protesters.
Ghaddaffi is rapidly losing friends, it seems.
Also, someone apparently just
Also, someone apparently just said on AlJazeera Arabic that Mutasim Ghaddaffi either shot or shot at his brother Saif al Islam.
Completely unconfirmed, and more than slightly bizarre. Perhaps a small 'falling out' within the family?
Apparently a diplomat in
Apparently a diplomat in Beijing but not the ambassador.
Quote: URGENT!!! #Gaddafi's
Absolutely unconfirmed, as there are lots of rumours about Ghaddaffi fleeing to Venezuela or Brazil. Although it looks like we could be close to the finish now either way.
Saif El Islam giving
Saif El Islam giving unprepared speech now on AJ. Looks like he dodged the bullet. Sounds like Libya is being torn apart by civil war. God know's what going to happen to the price of oil.
And what nonsense is coming
And what nonsense is coming out of his mouth... amazingly poor speech.
It certainly doesn't seem to
It certainly doesn't seem to be playing very well to the Gallery. It's just making him look more than a little mental.
Kids high on drugs responsible for the uprising? Really?
AJ reporting that two Iranian
AJ reporting that two Iranian warships set to enter the Med Monday morning via Suez canal.
Al Jazeera Quote: 1:00am:
Al Jazeera
As one Twitter user put it:
As one Twitter user put it: Mubarak's speeches were an attempt to bore the opposition into submission. Saif is instead using the 'flight to surrealism' strategy as a diversionary tactic...
He's losing time. He should
He's losing time. He should be packing his bags before the BBC's John Simpson arrives. The day he landed in Cairo I knew it was game over for Mubarak.
It is simply baffling. It's
It is simply baffling. It's really the ramblings of a madman. And as one Tweeter out it:
The protests have spread to
The protests have spread to the capitol, Tripoli. Saif al Islam Gaddafi has said that "tens of thousands are coming to support Muammar Gaddafi tomorrow." So that means, either both Gaddafis are completely delusional, he's bluffing, or there's gonna be a lot of police-armed "counter-demonstrators" tomorrow.
Also, if kids with drugs caused these protests, that would have to be some hardcore I Am Legend shit they're on.
The re-opened Guardian
The re-opened Guardian liveblog posted a message at 11:02 announcing that Saif was making a speech. It's since dissappeared.
You know your speech is bad when the Guardian decides it's not even newsworthy...
Quote: RT @humeid: #Libya
'Rats' and 'Sinking Ship' come to mind.
And with that, I'm off to bed. Revolution or no, I've still got work in the morning.
The speech to end all
The speech to end all speeches:
Saif-el Magnoun
EA liveblog Quote: 2340 GMT:
EA liveblog
Having been away from the
Having been away from the internet for a few days and desperately trying to glean news from passing access to conventional news sources, I'd like to say how useful it is to be able to come to a thread like this and find the condensed gatherings of all the people who've been monitoring the available sources for the past few days. It's invaluable.
And as for what's happening in Libya at the moment. I have to admit my expectations were doom-laden coming into the weekend that Ghaddafi would be able to crush the insurgency in the East (as he has before) without being threatened in Tripoli. So having just watched the closing parts of Saif's extraordinary ramble, and having caught up on all the above, all I can say is, inouï. Listening to Saif's threats of tens of thousands of Ghaddaffi loyalists about to sweep into Tripoli, one is reminded of Downfall and Hitler in the bunker insisting on the nonexistent army corps that is going to sweep in and defeat the allies. Except that Bruno Ganz is a much better actor than Saif... and more credible.
holy shit, check that out. Al
holy shit, check that out. Al Jazeera is saying now that an army group from Benghazi has defected to the rebels and opened fire on another army group sent from Tripoli because they refuse to obey orders and shoot the rebels. At least we know that parts the military are actively participating on the side of the rebels as opposed to just looking like it so they can secure power, like they have in Egypt.
They're saying now that the military is split along tribal lines and people are more loyal to their tribal unit than to the state, so whoever the individual tribes support is going to be the head of the new government. I'm seeing more and more possibility of the Somalian warlord scenario mentioned before. But that's still a long way away, and it's rather pessimistic, and none of the tribal leaders would have enough of a real agenda to really become warlords like Aidid was.
Just caught up on this thread
Just caught up on this thread over the weekend, reading the past two days contracted like that was unbelievable, thanks people.
Al Jazeera Quote: 12:07 pm
Al Jazeera
EA liveblog Quote: 1030 GMT:
EA liveblog
Guardian Quote: 9.59am:
Guardian
The BBC reported at noon,
The BBC reported at noon, with the usual qualifications (though their exiled opposition contacts have generally proved to be reliable) that the roads going into Tripoli were alive with protestors making for the town. It also reported that the capital was relatively quiet this morning with no significant protests on the streets. This could point to a certain reluctance, or maturity at this stage within the masses, not to get drawn into an unequal fight.
What does the Red-Black-Green
What does the Red-Black-Green flag represent? i've seen it in pictures from Benghazi
Komar wrote: What does the
Komar
I think it's the pre-Gaddhaffi, Kingdom of Libya flag. I think it's used by all shades of anti-Ghaddaffi oppositionists.
Man, just looking at this
Man, just looking at this guy's Wikipedia article brings me disgust. He started out EXACTLY the same way Chavez was. Hell, even the political system of Libya is a bastardized form of the workers' councils and communes, and Chavez is setting up those himself as well. Both preached about radical democracy and that they were different. BUT NO. It's all the same Bolshevist vanguardism. In Libya the "vanguards" are the Revolutionary Command Council, and the networks of communes are completely powerless and subservient to them. I suspect Chavez intends to do the same. Also, if it's true that Gaddafi is hiding in Venezuela, I'm gonna start a fucking riot once I return in July.
Auto wrote: I think it's the
Auto
Yeah, it also represents Islam (red. black and green were the colours of past Islamic empires) considering it often comes with the crescent moon.
Shia people use it without
Shia people use it without color. But of course majority of Libya is sunni
Fucking hell.... Quote: Al
Fucking hell....
Might explain the story about
Might explain the story about the two Libyan Mirage fighters making an unscheduled landing in Malta an hour ago. Maybe they just couldn't stomach carrying out their orders? Or maybe something else?
Reuters: Two Libyan fighter jets land in Malta
BBC Quote: 1657: The entire
BBC
AJE
Looks like it's not only the justice minister that wants out.
Quote: The 40-year-rule of
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/world/africa/22libya.html?hp
Reuters have just reported
Reuters have just reported that workers' strikes have broken out in the oil fields of the east and in the centre of the country, Ras Lanif, which is the site of an oil refinery and petrochemical complex, "anti-government protests" have extended.
BBC has just reported
BBC has just reported Ghaddafi has fled to Venezuela, or is at least on his way there.
That has been denied several
That has been denied several times over by Venezuelan officials.
AJ reporting that the 2 jets
AJ reporting that the 2 jets landing in Malta have indeed 'defected'.
Gadafi and Chavez have always
Gadafi and Chavez have always been very close, and Appledoze is right to highlight the similarities between the two systems. Like Libya, I feel that it only needs a spark - such as a 'socialist' dictator on the run from his own people arriving to plea for sanctuary - to ignite Venezuela. Also like Libya, there are an estimated 15 million handguns in circulation so it wuold be violent from the start.
Khawaga wrote: That (Ghaddafi
Khawaga
Yeah, BBC now saying he was still in Libya earlier today whe he spoke to Ban Ki Moon.
I did say they were 'reporting' that he'd gone.
Quote: I did say they were
Oh, I wasn't having a go at you. Just clarifying.
I should probably have put
I should probably have put 'BBC has reported, but it's not confirmed/it's been denied by Venzuela' to make sure.
I'd deny it too if I was Chavez.
Quote: I'd deny it too if I
So would I.
Gaddaffi is fucking insane.
Gaddaffi is fucking insane. Ordering fighter jets to bomb your own capital city? Fucking mental.
I think these have to be the dying moments of Ghaddaffi's regime. Although it seems that the old man has decided he's going to take as many people with him as he can before the end.
Al Jazeera reporting that
Al Jazeera reporting that F-16s have been seen over Tripoli.
Just wondering who has F-16s in the vicinity. Italy? USA from Italian bases? Any Arab states? It seems really unlikely that they're Libyan. They could of course be mis-identified...
I've seen that rumour on
I've seen that rumour on Twitter as well. People saying it's Israeli planes.... Very unlikely.
Twitter: Quote: RT
Twitter:
The two jets that landed in
The two jets that landed in Malta are Mirage jets which have presumably been supplied by France.
"Libya is regarded as a priority partner, with the UK boasting the largest pavilion at Libya's arms fair.
... figures show that in the third quarter of 2010, equipment approved for export to Libya included wall-and-door breaching projectile launchers, crowd control ammunition, small arms ammunition and teargas/irritant ammunition. No requests for licences were refused. Earlier this month, the trade minister, Lord Green, announced that ministers would be 'held accountable' if companies fail to secure deals and foreign investors favour Britain's economic rivals. Beside him was the Business Secretary, Vince Cable" (John Kampfner, todays Guardian).
It seems to me that Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, who said last night that behind the revolt was Islamism, tribal loyalties, drug taking and terrorism, was being groomed by the Foreign Office as Britain's point man in Libya. Hague was on the phone to him only a few days ago.
On Channel 4 News tonight there's an unconfirmed report of workers' strikes breaking out in Nafoora. I'm not sure if these are the same strikes reported on the BBC earlier today.
Rumours are that the planes
Rumours are that the planes are from Saudi Arabia... seems pretty unlikely given the poor relations between Gaddafi and the Saudis but they have already been involved in the repression in Bahrain and no doubt they are terrified at the minute so who knows
Apparently Gaddafi is set to give a speech on tv, prepare for another blast of mentalness I think
Caiman del Barrio
Caiman del Barrio
if its the case that hes going/gone to venesuala it will be interesting to see how the average leftie applauds the libiyan revolution whilst at the same time applauds good old chavez
Quote: Gaddaffi is fucking
Under the post-WWll Gaullist-Communist Party coalition in France, they bombed a town in Algeria, then their colony, because of an uprising there (I think Setif, but it might have been somewhere else); something like 20,000 died. Not quite like bombing your "own" capital city, but still...I mean, Thiers had loads of parts of Paris raised by canons in the suppression of the Commune. If London had an uprising as significant as the one going on in Tripoli, as a last resort, when nothing but naked repression is going to work for them, the rulers would be prepared to bomb it. Go-dafty's not the only one who's insane.
Mustafa Kemal ordered turkish
Mustafa Kemal ordered turkish army to bombard Dersim - a city of zaza kurds in the east of country- by planes in 30'ies. Turkish state is still proud of one of those bombarders who was the first woman pilot in the world -at least they claim so- and adopted daughter of Kemal himself...
New website documenting both
New website documenting both confirmed and unconfirmed reports from Libya
http://revolution2.moonfruit.com/
Al Jazeera Quote: 12:30am:
Al Jazeera
When the British successfully
When the British successfully tried out ariel bombardment on the Kurds in the 20s, the RAF high command suggested trying it out on "northern cities" in Britain that were gripped by strikes.
When the British Task Force returned from the Falklands the officers put up a large banner on the leading warship saying "Call off the rail strike or we'll call in an air strike".
Didn't German planes bomb the workers in the German revolution?
reports on twitter say that
reports on twitter say that 10 pilots executed for refusing to attack protesters, and hundads of soldures.
a caller on the bbc says that some of the mercnerys are white not africa, but he doesn't know where from.
sorry cant spell
more from twitter Breaking on Al Jazeera says there are ads in Nigeria and Guinea requesting mercenaries for #Libya for $2000 a day..
Quote: a caller on the bbc
Eh? There's plenty of white Africans.
Yorkie Bar wrote: Quote: a
Yorkie Bar
i have no idea, that just what he said
He did speculate about them
He did speculate about them being Eastern Europeans (possible). But there's still plenty of white South African mercs kicking about. Dunno if (ex-)Executive Outcomes/Sandline would touch it tho. Now that would be a story...
Reuters: oil prices soar
Reuters: oil prices soar
So after all that trailing of
So after all that trailing of Ghadaffi addressing the nation, we get a 6 second clip of him sitting in what looks suspiciously like a Robin Reliant in a ruined warehouse with an umbrella annoucing that he is in Tripoli. Beyond insane...
Khadaffi's last days: Society
Khadaffi's last days: Society of the Spectacle returning to its surrealist roots...
Quote: There is also the
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12532579
gypsytimetraveller
gypsytimetraveller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Legion
many of their members were Tuareg, Tubu and Kanuri refugees from Sahel countries who weren't really voluntaries but often confronted with the alternative of joining (and fighting in Chad) or being sent back to their home countries, when the legion was dissolved in 1987, they were expelled from Libya, many of them formed the core of the Tuareg rebel groups in Niger and Mali (as far as I know, among them e.g. the members of Tinariwen)
[youtube]UbdiCDsilCs[/youtube]
Well Gaddafi is giving his
Well Gaddafi is giving his speech, unsurprisingly it is mad, he just defended himself by referencing Waco. He also threatened even more violence as far as I can tell. I am convinced that he's trying to turn his exit into a black comedy.
Damn, this farce has been
Damn, this farce has been going on for an hour. My take is that he doesn't have a clue about what's happening on the streets and is mad. Stark, raving mad...
He keeps talking about the "drugs" the youth are taking and how they're "bad for their hearts." Fucking nuts...
He also said that Tienanmen, in unifying China, was more important than crushing the people there. He threatened to do a Tienanmen on the Libyans.
He is actually mental... "I
He is actually mental... "I will cleanse house by house". And he would if he had the chance. Reading from the green book etc. Fucking mental bastard.
I think the highlight of the
I think the highlight of the speech was ''no one must allow the country to fall into the hands of crazy people''.
Paper on Qadaffy's political
Paper on Qadaffy's political ramblings.
http://www.tamiu.edu/~mbenruwin/Political_Belief_System_of__Qaddafi_1.pdf
Anti-imperialist solidarity:
Anti-imperialist solidarity: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/22/AR2011022203086.html
ludd wrote: Anti-imperialist
ludd
And here's where the Maoist farce finally reveals itself. I never really had much respect for those "anti-imperialists" who are willing to ignore obviously reactionary actions of certain regimes, but this is a refutation that works better than anything I could actually say about them. The origin of Maoist "anti-imperialist" ideology is in China's attempts to create its own sphere of influence in the Third World, not any actual reasoning based on what will be most beneficial for the revolution.
His speech was far better
His speech was far better than "The King's Speech" made by another drooling idiot.
There's reports on Russian TV of two more fighter-bombers landing in Benghazi. Al-Jazeera reports that the largest oil refinery in Az-Zawiyah, 50 K west of Tripoli, has been hit by air strikes.
BBC News tonight showed a Chinook helicopter (who provided that?) firing on demonstrators.
I've finally heard from my relatives in the central coastal region and they are all safe and well but scared.
EA liveblog Quote: 2035 GMT:
EA liveblog
Taken from Twitter, so of
Taken from Twitter, so of course it is completely unconfirmed...
...but I have been noticing that Ghaddaffi seems to be losing friends very rapidly. His tactic of severe repression seems to have backfired somewhat.
Are we witnessing a 'Final days in the Fuhrerbunker' scenario?
Khawaga wrote: He is actually
Khawaga
He really is a scary individual. His speech and the umbrella video before it showed someone who is completely detached from reality.
Entdinglichung
Entdinglichung
Cheers that is very interesting indeed.
ocelot wrote: He did
ocelot
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/22/gaddafi-mercenary-force-libya about who they may be.
Al Jazeera Quote: 12: 48am:
Al Jazeera
(No subject)
[youtube]IVzYADb7MMc[/youtube]
AJE Quote: 3.59pm: Iranian
AJE
:confused:
also
AP reports that two Russian
AP reports that two Russian made fighters crashed in the desert near Benghazi and the pilots bailed out? One of the pilots was called Gaddafi and from the great leaders' tribe. The same report contains many reports of self-organisation, self-defence committees and soliders joining the demonstrators across the country, particularly spreading to the west. It looks like the regime is existing in isolated pockets and once again Friday looks like the big day.
Sorry, one Russian Sukhoi
Sorry, one Russian Sukhoi fighter plance and two pilots. Also a local residents defence committee is guarding Gaddafi's secretive anti-aircraft missile site near Tobruk armed with AK's.
From Alive in Libya (a decent
From Alive in Libya (a decent website)
http://alive.in/libya/2011/02/22/caller-personally-confirmed-1500-young-men-buried-alive-in-an-underground-room-in-benghazi-speak2tweet/
Status of Libya map as of
Status of Libya map as of 2/23
http://i.imgur.com/2Ls3W.jpg
AP wrote: A French doctor
AP
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=209544
Very interesting report at
Very interesting report at the end of Channel 4 News tonight. One has to be careful, witness the false reporting of the "sacking" of the Egyptian museum, which was largely slanted to make Arabs look like savages. I think there was some minimal damage but this was by elements of the Egyptian state and the treasures were protected by the people.
But the report on Channel 4 looks kosher and it details a battle over the last few days in a major military base outside Bengazi which was landing flights of mercenaries and special forces, both well armed. When the local people heard about it they went en masse, armed with various implements and the occasional AK and, despite getting bombed by fighter jets and shot by helicopter gunships, they overwhelmed the enemy and took the base, which is now under their control. I don't see how any revolutionary, with all due caution, can't but welcome these movements.
Even the FT has reported on
Even the FT has reported on the emergence of self-organisation:
"In a dramatic reversal, residents of Benghazi say they have seized control of the city after an army unit switched sides and helped them overcome security services loyal to Col Gaddafi, who now faces a spreading popular revolt.
After four days of street confrontations in which at least 200 local people were killed, residents said Benghazi was calm and that citizen committees were being put in charge of running it.
"There's no more fighting in Benghazi. Our people are establishing and organising themselves into committees to protect public and private institutions," said Sohail al-Atrash. "We do not see any soldiers on the streets any more, nobody is threatening us."
Mostapha el-Gheriani, an engineer, said citizens now had "total control"."
If you have access to their archives, it is here:
FT Tuesday 22 Feb http://presscuttings.ft.com/presscuttings/s/3/articleText/44827748#axzz1EokKuzT3
Berrot
Guardian report on the
Guardian report on the situation in Tripoli
At the Libyan embassy in Morocco
[youtube]TkmqFhvWXRg[/youtube]
aloeveraone wrote: Status of
aloeveraone
that's good, that.
seems widespread, i remember some talking head trying a few nights ago to present the rebellion as a tribal thing, this at first glance contradicts.
reporter: workers refuse
reporter: workers refuse orders to cut electricity
delusional stuff in the WRP's
delusional stuff in the WRP's News Line from yesterday:
http://wrp.org.uk/news/6150
Reuters Quote: Anti-governmen
Reuters
Entdinglichung: Quote: delusi
Entdinglichung:
Haven't checked since the early 90s, but News Line used to be virtually subsidised by Gadaffi: it was the only English language paper available there from the 70s (though I'd guess that probably changed more recently) and I seem to remember something like 50% of their production went there. They'll be bankrupt if he goes.
Quote: delusional stuff in
cf. WRP links with Saddam Hussein
Government forces attacking
Government forces attacking cities in the west of Libya
EA liveblog
Al Jazeera video
To back up petey's and other
To back up petey's and other posters above about the relative insignificance of tribal divisions in this uprising, divisions that the regime tried to play up, through the person of Saif, from the outset.
Last night on Channel 4 News, they had an expert on Libyan affairs from Exeter University. He talked about how the regime had deliberately "punished" the eastern part of the country because of historical and, some, tribal factors, but he said that tribal questions were not a major factor now even in the east and this was a general uprising for common cause.
There's no working class leadership to this movement, it's true. But who expected there to be a workers' revolution falling out of the sky? But there are strong proletarian elements to this movement in Libya: solidarity, self-organisation, the fight against repression, the question of unemployment and unity of purpose - even if the latter doesn't immediately express itself in a revolutionary force.
I don't think it's a matter of waiting to see what the future brings for the movement - that's a cop out - but of seeing the potential of what's happening right under our eyes. We should be moved by and welcome these events and, more importantly, be ready to learn the lessons from them because these are profound movements for the working class that can't be written off as "tribal divisions".
Obama is standing up for "freedom, justice and the dignity of all people" and, like Britain and others, has been doing so by backing and arming regimes like Libya's all over the world. He talked last night about reserving the right to US unilateral action - which I don't see likely. But insisted, a la the Balkans, and the first Gulf War, on the "humanitarian option" and "humanitarian assistance". I can see the latter going through NGOs representing their countries' imperialist interests.
It has been constantly repeated that the rapprochement and business deals between Libya and the UK began with the embrace of the two grotesques, Blair and Gaddafi in 2005. But to my certain knowledge, BP, as a British company, has been active in Libya since the mid 1980s. Since 2005 it has effectively been an American company as far as I can see. But it was useful for the British connection to be played up by the administration in response to the Gulf oil spill.
Gaddifi and his forces are still hanging on and are fighting for their lives, not least with weaponry supplied by Britain and others. There's a lot of talk from the protestors about the importance of Friday. I've got to go to work for the next 36 hours. Be there or be (Tahrir) square - in spirit at least.
From the Guardian's reporter
From the Guardian's reporter in Bengazi:
baboon: Quote: There's no
baboon:
Not only true, but healthy.
Samotnaf
Samotnaf
it seems, they are still subsidized by Gadaffi, in today's issue: http://www.wrp.org.uk/news/6153 :cry:
Al Jazeera are reporting that
Al Jazeera are reporting that in Mesarata that the people have fought off an assault by a government para-military brigade called the Hamza brigade of about a 1000 fighters. This brigade had used heavy weaponry including artillery against the city .The city is under attack again.
Hamza is an interesting choice of name he was Mohammed's enforcer, and this will not be lost on the population.
Al Jazeera reporting military attack on Az-Zawiyah in the west of Libya, where the 'great leader' has send he will make a broadcast later
We have mocked the "great leaders " rank but it must be terrifying for those living in Libya, they know he means it.
The very softly softly response of the 'West' to this repression: no UN resolution, the US saying nothing for days etc etc I think is deliberate. They along with the ruling class in the Middle East are using the bloody massacre in Libya as an example to the rest of the Middle East and the World of what can happen if you rise up.
Entdinglichung
Entdinglichung
ROTFLMAO!! Fuck me, that is funny. The fantastist spirits of Gerry Healey and Vanessa Redgrave lives on.
Thanks for the post - it's the first belly laugh I've had all day :o)
The WRP youth section used to
The WRP youth section used to leaflet my old workplace once or twice a year, scary eyes.
There was a bit from the
There was a bit from the French doctor's interview with Le Point yesterday, that didn't get translated for the Guardian or AP stories. It speaks to the extremity of the struggle for Benghazi
Libye : "C'était un carnage absolu"
extraordinary.
Man, those popular committees
Man, those popular committees work fast. First radios, now a newspaper:
Can anyone translate the headlines?
Also, I know that we have to be very careful in claiming these comittees as revolutionary in our sense of the word - but they already seem to be doing a better job of organising society than Ghaddaffi ever did.
It's probably highly unlikely - but I'd find it hugely ironic if Ghaddaffi's fall lead to the creation of an actual direct democracy.
Regarding the popular
Regarding the popular committees here are some comments from the Arabist blog. I don't know enough about Libya to judge how accurate they are.
Al Jazeera Quote: 10:10am
Al Jazeera
Edit: I wonder if Chavez is really using Twitter?
Edit2:
An article in Spanish by supporters of Chavez and Castro who are arguing for opposition to Gaddafi
¿Qué pasa con Libia? Del mundo árabe a América Latina
machine translation
One of the authors, Alma Allende, has written some of the more interesting reports from Tunisia, but maybe these need to be read with a bit of scepticism given her apparent pro-Chavez, pro-Castro position.
On international intervention
On international intervention and the dire situation in Libya (Jadaliyya.com)
Al Jazeera English is
Al Jazeera English is reporting that 'Anti-Ghaddafi revolutionaries' have taken over the Libyan embassy in Paris.
Al Jazeera Quote: 1:31pm All
Al Jazeera
EA liveblog
Eyewitness account from Tripoli (BBC)
Libya unrest sends shockwaves
Libya unrest sends shockwaves through global markets (Signalfire)
Oil at $119: The 'devil's excrement' hits the fan (Paul Mason)
A comment from one of my
A comment from one of my 'non-political' co-workers:
'These popular committees seem to be doing a better job of running the country than the government!'
A completely off-hand statement, but I thought it was an interesting thing for them to say, nonetheless. ;)
Quote: 12:30pm The AFP news
And the Lybian ambassador and all his staff have left the building.
Mark. wrote: Al
Mark.
I couldn't find it on his twitter account, but its on the website linked to from there, in the feed from twitter,
It looks like shit is kicking
It looks like shit is kicking off in a big way in Tripoli. Live fire in a number of districts, protests all over - Tajoora barracks have apparently joined the protesters - rebel reinforcements possibly at the outskirts of the city.
All unconfirmed as it's moving so fast, but it looks like the Battle of Tripoli could be underway.
From Libyafeb17 Quote: 17:02
From Libyafeb17
Auto wrote: A comment from
Auto
pursue that, you might have a live one 8-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBY-0n4esNY&feature=youtu.be
Well as they say: if you have to go, finish on a song.
Apparently this video is becoming very popular among Arabic youth...
Photos
Photos
Al Jazeera inside story:
Al Jazeera inside story: unconfirmed reports of Algerian support for Gaddafi, with involvement of Algerian special forces and Algerian planes ferrying mercenaries
radicalgraffiti wrote: Mark.
radicalgraffiti
EDIT not sure how to zoom in on that but fortunately someone from El Lib took a screenshot lol.
As regards #chavezcadanga, the account was opened about a year ago and almost instantly became inundated with desperate pleas from Venezuelans for him to sort out their problems. At first, an effort was made to reply to every single tweet but they eventually became too many. It later transpired that it's not him personally doing most of it, but looking at the bombastic language, he appears to have some sort of access to it. I mean, like every other rich, self-important Venezuelan, he has a Blackberry so why shouldn't he be tweeting from inside meetings?
More from Al Jazeera Latin
More from Al Jazeera
Latin America's sudden silence on Gaddafi
Mark. wrote: Al Jazeera
Mark.
link please! this sounds relevant
jesse blue - the claims were
jesse blue - the claims were made towards the end of a broadcast of Inside Story last night. I made the post just after watching it. This Inside Story broadcast doesn't seem to be on the website yet - the last one posted up ('Libya's power struggle') is Thursday's broadcast. Maybe it will be there later in the day. I haven't seen the claim made anywhere else.
http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/insidestory/
Edit: I think this is the one
Inside Story: what would a new Libya look like?
Another unconfirmed report,
Another unconfirmed report, this time of Serbian mercenaries piloting planes involved in air strikes on Tripoli and Benghazi. The claim seems to come from the Libyan air force pilots who landed in Malta.
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2011/02/24/serbia-reactions-to-the-story-of-serbian-mercenaries-in-libya/
The industrial coastal town
The industrial coastal town where my relatives are has "fallen to the rebels" as they say. I am concerned because of the six children, all first cousins to my kids, three of them are young men (though the role of women in this revolt has been similar to elsewhere - up front). One of them had just returned home with his new Geordie bride - I suppose it's just like Saturday night on the town to her. The last we heard they were all OK and news is slow coming out. I'm concerned but pleased.
Just a funny story for a bit of light relief: Myself and someone else above reported the incident of the Russian-made jet fighter ditching in the desert in the east of the country rather than shoot protestors with the two pilots bailing out. It turned out that one of them was a Gaddafi, close to the man himself. So the original story looked like that of two heroes or at least two brave men.
I didn't quite understand though why they didn't land the plane and possibly hand it over to the "cause".
The real story has emerged that the co-pilot in the back, Gaddafi, was holding a pistol to the pilot's head and threatened to shoot him if he didn't bomb the protestors. In a moment of desperate and comic inspiration, the pilot hit the ejector button and I don't know what the G forces were but they must have pulled the gun right out of his hand. I bet he was surprised and I hope they kicked the shit out of him when they got him on the ground.
Manchester demos
Manchester demos http://www.libyafeb17.com/?p=2599
Pambazuka
Pambazuka News
Guardian Quote: 2.58pm: Libya
Guardian
From the Guardian, who have
From the Guardian, who have sent Peter Beaumont to join other foreign journalists on the regime's 'look, everything's fine!' PR tour. Said campaign hasn't got off to the best start:
gypsytimetraveller
gypsytimetraveller
basically it's as if Dundee United led a revolution
From the
From the Guardian:
When the ex-Justice minister announced the interim government, I had thought that was it for the self-organisation of the Revolution. This statement makes me think twice.
Perhaps there could be more to come from the Libyan revolution even after Ghaddaffi falls...
auto The absence of a
auto
The absence of a powerful autonomous working class self-organisation in this situation means that the ground is open for fractions of the Libyan bourgeoisie to use this popular unrest as a means for trying to further their own ends on the bodies of those who have been slaughtered. The sight of much of the old regime jump from Gaddaffi;s ship to simply be integrated into the new transition government must leave many of those involved in the bitter struggles wondering what they have really achieved. Thousands dead only to see Gaddaffi's old interior minister -chief torturer- setting himself up as the new leader! What has changed?
Unlike Tunisia and Egypt where there were strikes and demonstrations against unemployment in Libya at present it is not possible to tell whether the working class has been able to put forwards its own demands.. There were reports of strikes in some of the oil fields, but this have not been reported since. However, it is interesting that it is working class areas of Tripoli that have been the focus of the brutal repression in the capital. Hopefully more information will come out about what the working class has been doing.
On a broader level, the working class in Libya does not have the same recent history of struggles as their has been in Egypt which will effect its ability to defend itself own interests in this very dangerous situation for it. It would appear that the 'opposition' bourgeoisie has managed to place itself at the head of the unrest and this means that increasingly the working class and population are being asked to struggle to defend this bunch of gangsters against the other in the name of democracy and freedom.
Good post Ernie. Workers
Good post Ernie.
Workers getting slaughtered destroying a regime that will be replaced by a new bourgeois
government (with many of the same old faces) that will continue to oppress.
The dangers are obvious: in
The dangers are obvious: in Egypt a renewed imperialism shakes itself off; in Tunisia we see riots and wholesale looting - a certain degeneration of the situation from the situation before. Among many workers all across the region nationalist sentiments exist and are probably stronger.
In Libya the vast majority of people are fighting for their lives, because if this regime survives it will exact a terrible, wholesale revenge. That's what changed Ernie and that is a very fundamental question for those involved. To put this down to one group of gangsters fighting against another is to somewhat miss the point.
Of course fractions of the bourgeoisie, related to the old regime, are, with certain manipulations by wider imperialisms, jockying for a position. Where else has this not happened?
There's a strong working class in Libya, a lot of unemployment even greater than similar regimes. Lots of immigrant labour and lots of industry. The bourgeoisie say "rebels take control" but, in some obvious instances, these are people taking control of their own towns. Zawiyah is a case in point. Six million people, docks, university, hospitals, schools, public transport, nearby oil fields and the second biggest oil refinery in Libya - do you reckon there's any workers there? These workers haven't got the recent strike experience as workers in Egypt, that's true but it's not a necessary prerequisite. They are workers and it's fairly obvious to me that they've been involved in the struggle against the state.
You could see these workers in Zawiyah as unconscious, atomised individuals wandering blindly around. Or you could see them as being led by Islamicism or tribal loyalties. The western media and Saif have played those last aspects up. But it takes a fair degree of self-organisation to take anti-aircraft cannon fire (Britain supplied such goods), repel the army and consolodate positions. And seeing that there must be numbers of workers involved it's not hard to envisage a certain degree of workers' self-organisation. There's other factors that are relevant; clear fraternisation by the army and expressions of internationalism with the Bangla-Deshi workers telling a British reporter that they've never eaten so well. I don't think that we can just denounce these struggles as gangster faction fights when there's clearly a lot more going on.
While the British media was getting hysterical about the "rescue" operation, an English oil worker in the east had nothing but praise for the Libyans; he said that they armed themselves and set up their own militias, protected them from government mercenaries and provided them with food.
Human Rights Watch has described the foundation that Saif set up in Libya "as a force for freedom, willing to take on the interior ministry in the fight for civil liberties".
There are clearly thousands
There are clearly thousands of Egyptian workers in Libya. Plus lots of British workers (in the Oil Industry) who have no connection to the hugs and kisses given by Blair to Gaddaffi a few years ago.
From
From http://www.libyafeb17.com/
Eyewitness account of Tripoli – 27th February
Soldier kills security battalion commander
http://www.jadaliyya.com/page
http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/741/libyas-significance
http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/744/exclusive-update-from-benghazi_inside-information-on-the-opposition-movement
don't know about the site, but this seems interesting though:
and so on, which really seems true.
http://www.wrp.org.uk/news/61
http://www.wrp.org.uk/news/6162
:cry:
Entdinglichung
Entdinglichung
what a bunch of morons
According to a report in
According to a report in Foreign Policy the US tried to slip language into the UN resolution on sanctions that would give legal cover for military intervention.
ernie wrote: auto The absence
ernie
While this outcome is certainly possible, I find it less likely that it will happen than the other option, which is an entirely new regime. Libyans are very aware of who was in the Qadaffy regime and from what I've gathered people have not forgotten what the rats, that are leaving the sinking ships, did. They appreciate that they've now "switched" sides, but do not want them as part of any new government. Old Qadaffy loyalists have claimed to be the new leaders etc. but are always rebuffed by protesters and tribal leaders.
What Jesse Blue posted seem to be more likely, especially in the east where there's already been moves to start a new government. Not a communist revolution, true, but not like Egypt where there a military Junta (that was already in power) used the protests to commit a putsch (though considering recent events in Egypt, it seems like people are waking up to the fact that nothing really changed so the verdict on Egypt is still out).
Maybe there's something in
Maybe there's something in the WRP story (even the most ideological crap has some partial truth to it):
from here.
The Guardian asks the obvious
The Guardian asks the obvious question
More from the Guardian on the
More from the Guardian on the conflict west of Tripoli
Libya's Berbers join the revolution
Gaddafi just told the BBC
Gaddafi just told the BBC that there are absolutely no protests against him whatsoever in Tripoli. After trying to convince people they're in Al-Qaeda, agents of imperialism, and pretty much anything else he can think of, his next logical step is to deny it outright.
Haha OK buddy. If there was ever any doubt as to whether or not he still has any grip on reality, it's gone now.
Mark: Quote: The Guardian
Mark:
But rather typically for the liberal lefties, this reduces the reasons for intervention to "western investment and securing Libya's oilfields", and not the potential development of class war in the country and region.
Samotnaf wrote: For any
Samotnaf
:eek: surely spock would stage a mutiny?
There actually is an aircraft
There actually is an aircraft carrier named USS Enterprise. If only Spock were on it.
Spartacus - in fact, that
Spartacus - in fact, that comes from Al Jazeera - somehow the quote bit didn't come out right (was fine on preview).
Baboon I think you are
Baboon
I think you are correct to point out the nonsensical nature of my claim that nothing had changed, Clearly there has been a whole social movement. Point taken.
However, the point of my post was not to question the existence of a working class in Libya or the fact that workers have displayed staggering courage in no longer being willing to endure their terrible situation. The point was that without a powerful autonomous independent movement this movement is being pulled into a defence of the interim government i.e. the defence of one bourgeois fraction against another. This does imply that the working class should do nothing but above all that it has to struggle to defend itself own interests which means defending its interests against the efforts of the interim government etc to get it to follow them. Warning of the grave dangers facing the working class and the poor in Libya does not equal rejecting their struggle to throw off the terrible weight of the Gaddafi regime. But there is a great difference between throwing yourself unarmed against the guns of the regime in order to get rid of them, or to stop them attacking others, and doing the same in the name of defending the interim government. The first we can fully support the second we have to reject and warn against,
As you have pointed out elsewhere one of the main strengths of this movement has been the fraternization between the population and the army. In the West the turning point in many places appears to have been the coming over of the soldiers to the protesters. The danger I see is that the more the interim government can consolidate the various armed militias and military groups into some form of overall command the more the struggle becomes a fraction fight. The US and GB imperialisms are certainly trying to get them to do this in order to bring the situation under greater control.
The one thing that Gaddafi, the 'opposition' interim government and the main imperialist powers are agreed on is that the working class and its efforts to defend itself have to be crushed. The working class is faced with enemies to the front and even greater and more dangerous ones behind it. This is why without a struggle to defend it own interests, as we saw in Egypt at the end of the demonstrations and the beginning of a new strike wave, the very grave danger is that it will end up being dragged into defending one fraction against another: something we are already beginning to see.
I do not think this movement is tribalist or islamist.
Ern I know that there's a
Ern I know that there's a discussion on the ICC's website on this but I will answer you here as you've posted here and continue the discussion.
I too disagree with Devrim's position that this movement is Islamicist and tribalist. I don't think that anyone seriously holds this view except maybe in the regime or what I've seen of the Workers' Revolutionary Party position.
As to the nuances and warnings of your position above, I can only agree now that we can see the forest for the trees. The dangers of an overall statist defence (or offence) amalgamating various more or less spontaneous self-defence and public health committees is pointed out in the Guardian piece posted by Mark above, where one of the "revolutionaries" says that we need to move from the creation of (local) health and security committees to what's implied as an overall governing body. I think that given the numbers of workers in the industrial areas involved, then they would have had a strong representation on these local committees - even if they wasn't out and out proletarian. The potential for these committees to turn into something stronger is destroyed in subservience to a "national salvation committee", as you rightly say.
This latter would further become a tool in the hands of the larger imperialisms. Gaddafi's previous arms suppliers, Britain, France, the US, etc., directly complicit in his massacres, are now manoeuvring and acting to defend their vital interests in this area and their wider and longer term imperialist ambitions. Cameron went as far yesterday as saying that he was prepared to consider supplying arms to the rebels and Sarkozy - another of the murderous regime's mates - has already stolen a march by sending at least two aircraft loads of "humanitarian" assistance to the east of the country. If previous such efforts are anything to go by then there will be "humanitarian" armements involved and "humanitarian" special forces with the NGO's fronting for them.
It's the same with any possible "no-fly zone": when the coalition of the willing brought this into operation over the Iraqi Kurds, it was a method of emplacement of US and British forces. There was nothing humanitarian about it as it only applied to fixed wing aircraft and Saddam was allowed to continue using his helicopter gunships which were ideal in putting down the Kurds. Even if now the "international community" (imperialism in different layers of strength) imposes a total no-fly zone it is still very difficult to keep track of low-flying helicopters.
There were further examples on the TV news last night of solidarity and internationalism reported by fleeing refugess from the Libyan people by Indians (one Indian worker and her children expressed their thanks), Bangla-deshis and British oil workers - the latter obviously in direct contact with Libyan workers. But now the masses and the workers face the twin dangers of a renewed assault by desperate elements of the old regime and a national committee, an interrim government, backed by various elements of imperialism.
(No subject)
g liveblog 9.52am: Al Jazeera
g liveblog
9.52am: Al Jazeera is reporting that rebels say they have retaken Brega, according to Reuters. We can't confirm this at present.
9.28am: According to posts on Twitter, 14 people were killed in fighting in Brega, which has been retaken by Gaddafi forces, but rebels are heading to the town from nearby Ajdabiya:
@SultanAlQassemi
Al Arabiya: 14 dead in clashes between revolutionaries & Gaddafi forces in town of Brega, 670 km east of Tripoli. #Libya
@martinchulov
Rebels in ajdabiya say the're reading for counter-assault to take bregga 90km south. #libya #feb17
9.14am: More on the bombing of Ajdabiya - about 75km from Brega which has already been retaken - from the Associated Press:
The witnesses told The Associated Press they saw two warplanes bomb the eastern part of the town of Ajdabiya at 10am (8am GMT) local time Wednesday. They also said that pro-Gaddafi forces were advancing on the town, some 470 miles (750km) east of the capital Tripoli.
Ahmed Jerksi, manager of the Sirte oil company which runs the facility in the eastern town of Brega, said pro-Gaddafi forces retook control of the facility, south-west of Ajdabiya.
it appears it was targeted...
it appears it was targeted... I suppose if it were blown up they would say that instead
g liveblog:
• Ajdabiya, 75km from Brega, has reportedly been targeted by Gaddafi's airforce this morning. A weapons dump was targeted to the south of the city. "Opposition people are massing," Martin Chulov reports, but he adds that the "town will not be taken without a fight.""
• Gharyan and Sabratha, both near Tripoli, have also reportedly been retaken by Gaddafi forces.
--
10.10am: A rebel coalition has told Reuters Brega is under its control:
"We are probably going to call for foreign help, probably air strikes at strategic locations that will put the nail in his (Gaddafi's) coffin," Mustafa Gheriani, a spokesman for the rebel February 17th coalition, told Reuters.
"They tried to take Brega this morning, but they failed. It is back in the hands of the revolutionaries. He is trying to create all kinds of psychological warfare to keep these cities on edge," he said.
About Ajdabiyah, he said the town was " basically stable and our people are grouping to deal with any major assault. For now, it is still just hit and run."
Al-Arabiya reports that Gaddafi's forces are only in control of Brega airport but not the town itself.
10.21am: A worker at the Brega oil facility has just told al-Jazeera English that the rebels are indeed in control of the town. He was clearly emotional and gave a breathless account of clashes with Gaddafi forces who he said had been repelled but were still at the airport. He said 15 people had been killed. At one point he shouted "Allahu Akbar" (God is the greatest) and people with him joined in the chanting. When asked who was in control of Brega, the unnamed man said:
"The locals, the revolutionaries, it's us. Allahu Akbar. We are controlling Brega now."
10.55am: The excellent Feb17voices has interesting audio from a woman in Zintan, about 90 miles south of Tripoli. She says about 40 people are missing from the city, unaccounted for:
The last three days the army has attacked the city three times, all of which were repelled by the residents. The army was put to flight leaving weapons and cars behind...
Today and yesterday ,42 to 43 mercenaries were captured who were trying to enter the city. Thank God the youths are in control of the city. Government battalions keep attacking but each time the residents captured soldiers and weapons thank God...
The youth have also established a military council to manage the affairs of Zintan which is made up also of some of the older officers who have defected from Gaddafi.
11.23am: The situation in Brega remains unclear. Libyan state TV is reporting that Gaddafi's forces are in control of the airport and seaport, contradicting rebel accounts that they have been repelled. An al-Jazeera correspondent in Ajdabiya (75km from Brega) said thousands are gathering there to prepare to help out their fellow rebels in Brega. People in Ajabiya could be heard firing their weapons, apparently to test them in preparation.
aj liveblog has this:
1:00pm
AJE correspondent: The emphasis in Benghazi has been first and foremost to fortify this town, people have been signing up ... hundreds of men as far as I can tell, have been giving their names and their mobile phone numbers to recruitment officers ... many of them have said that they want to march on Tripoli, but its quite clear that the rebel commanders think that it is the most important thing to secure and consolidate Benghazi, because this is afterall the heart, the seat of the revolution and it is the headquarters, politically and militarily for anti-Gaddafi forces.
A plausible sounding
A plausible sounding assessment from a RUSI analyst in the Indo
Given the importance of oil
Given the importance of oil to all the world's major economies, do we see over Libya then expressions of mutual interests of all these economies, cooperation and a transcending of different national interests which are out of date and a thing of the past in the new globalised, cooperative world? Or rather, are we seeing, in front of our eyes, expressions of discordance, the assertion of national interests, tensions, in a word imperialism rearing its multi-faceted head?
France has sent at least two flights of "humanitarian" aid to Benghazi. It's a pound to a pinch of shit that these flights contain arms, special forces,
and Arabic-speaking secret service agents under direct instructions from the Quai d'Orsay. French PM Fillon said yesterday that these were the first of many flights.
British special forces have been active in Libya for at least several days now. Their "humanitarian" mission was to rescue British oil workers, though most of these seemed to have been "rescued" by Libyan oil workers already. The Telegraph reports this morning that SAS forces are active in the west of Libya searching for Gaddifi's supplies of mustard gas. That Gaddafi was supposed to give up his WMD in exchange for a hug and a kiss from Tony Blair we can leave aside for the moment. What would be embarrassing for the British government would be the discovery that at least some of these WMD's had been supplied by Britain in the first place - just as Britain, along with Germany, supplied Saddam with his chemical and biological weapons in the 80s. Britain has supplied all sorts of weaponry and technology to Libya and not just riot control stuff. Whatever, the SAS is active in the east and west of Libya.
We don't see cooperation and the transcending of national interests anywhere over Libya, but the reinforcement of those national interests, trying to stitch up others and tendencies towards chaos. NATO is riven by arguments; the EU the same and the UN is good for nothing except as a talking shop to cover up its own divisions and overriding national interests.
Four US warships have entered the international waters of the Med for "humanitarian" reasons - and if you believe that, you'll believe anything. A few days ago (days seem like weeks now) 2 Iranian warships went into the same waters through the Suez Canal.
China and Russia have blocked any attempt at a "no-fly zone" - not that the US wanted one - and France has openly criticised Britain's position on the question. Italy, which regards this region as its own imperialist backyard has supported Britain's position against France, offering up it air bases in competition to Cyprus.
I don't see globalised cooperation and the transcending of national interests anywhere here.
I find all this quite
I find all this quite irrelevant to be honest, there is no real alternative amongst these 'revolutions'. The people are handing their power over to politicians, the military and perhaps a return of a Libyan Monarchy.
Here we go again...
Here we go again...
Libya discussion forum
Libya discussion forum http://www.libyafeb17.com/forum/
http://www.libyafeb17.com/forum/?mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=6
Libyan_Anarchist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFigOpOBpxo&feature=player_embedded#at=41
aj interview with saif
Anarkismo: Interview with
Anarkismo: Interview with Mazen Kamalmaz
http://www.libyafeb17.com/201
http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/03/breaking-clashes-in-ras-lanuf-west-of-ajdabiya/
anderson cooper asking about which kinds of drugs the kids are using
The push to Ras Lanuf
The push to Ras Lanuf yesterday, following fleeing government forces, was initiated by the volunteer irregulars and the army had no choice but to follow them. They appear to have "taken" this pro-Gaddafi town with the locals welcoming them. These irregulars, mostly youth but by no means all young men, are being controlled by no one at the moment. The Gaddifi-turncoat minister, who has put himself in charge the army in Benghazi, was against the push. The ex-justice minister has also been making reassuring noises to the oil companies based in the region.
The British media very often quotes local anti-Gaddafi sources as doctors, oil workers, engineers, factory workers, unemployed, etc., to suggest workers are involved as individuals. Strongest fighting is often in industrial areas. But I've only seen one report of a strike early doors and a clear entry by the working class could well affect the balance of forces.
I've seen some oil company production figures, one of which says production is down by 80%. Other estimates have substantial reductions. For whatever reason, many workers are not going to work in key industries. Strikes and self-organisation of the workers must be a possibility given that the unions must be totally discredited. Such a move could well integrated with the youth (and others) on the street and on the warpath.
The regime responds with more terror. Disappearances, night time raids, shootings, bombings and threats of further massacres. Gaddafi has thousands of well trained troops and police, and we know that he is well armed because Britain and all the others has provided him with a whole range of materiale from fighter jets to body armour. And oil money is still pouring into his coffers, well enough to pay for his mercenaries.
Some leaflets about the
Some leaflets about the uprising in the Maghreb and Mashrek translated in English:
Conflicting reports (or
Conflicting reports (or rumours?) on Twitter just now
from guardian In the rebel
from guardian
In the rebel stronghold of Benghazi, an SAS unit of up to eight men was being held after a secret mission to put British diplomats in touch with leading opponents of the regime ended in humiliation, the Sunday Times reported. The soldiers were captured as they escorted a junior diplomat through rebel-held territory in the east, according to the newspaper.
on twitter people seem to be talking more about it.
also this just this minute: AFP: Explosion has been heard in the rebel-held town of Ras Lanuf, followed by the sound of anti-aircraft guns opening fire #libya #feb17
EA liveblog Quote: 0810 GMT:
EA liveblog
It looks like reports of the rebels reaching Sirte last night were wrong
On Libya and
On Libya and “African Mercenaries”
It's said that the SAS units
It's said that the SAS units have been "captured" but it appears that they are where they wanted to be, in touch with the opposition leadership which I think is part of a process that is more far-reaching than protecting Britain's oil interests - though that will be part of it - which in the first instance a few soldiers and a couple of spies won't do.
Britain is a declining secondary, but major imperialist power which is still very much capable of projecting its national interests in various key parts of the globe.
In order to do this it doesn't have to rely only on gunboats or armies, but, like many similar states, uses diplomacy, spies, special forces, NGO's, etc.
This from yesterday's Guardian:
"Britain is to send a team of experts capable of giving military advice to eastern Libya to make contact with opposition leaders as the struggle for control of the country escalates.
The move is a clear intervention on the ground to bolster the anti-Gaddifi uprising, learn more about its leadership and see what logicistical support it needs...
David Cameron has been determined to back the resistance partly because, following advice this week by experts and Libyans in the UK, he believes that it is neither tribal nor Islamist, but is built around democratic demands that could in the medium term mark a decline in anti-western mood in the Middle East".
For "decline in anti-western mood" read strengthening of pro-British influence in the Middle East - particularly after the Blairite disasters.
The piece goes on: "The foreign secretary, William Hague, has been in telephone contact with General Abdul Fattah Younis Obaidi, the former Libyan interior minister, now based in Benghazi, who is seen as a likely successor to Gaddafi. Obaidi was yesterday placed in charge of military defences in a sign that he is at the helm of the oppostion.
British officials know the identity of all the members of the broad-based Benghazi committee currently focused on keeping essential services and defences going....
The UK diplomatic task force is to assess humanitarian need and keep the opposition leaders in the east of the country better informed about diplomatic activity. The national council is focused most on what it can do to help the isolated rebel towns close to Tripoli".
There couldn't be a clearer statement of intent from British imperialism.
If the "diplomatic task force" is now in the hands of the opposition forces in Benghazi then that is exactly where they want to be. They won't appreciate the details leaking though.
Quote: This from yesterday's
It may be that the Western intervention in Libya will be similar to the Stalinists in the Spanish civil war; behind-the-scenes military advisors sent in, covert arms shipments, political manipulation of the state power for securing of wider geo-political interests, organising the crushing of any more radical potential etc.
I think there are other more
I think there are other more general parallels with Spain as well. I think the events in Libya began as a general popular revolt - not clearly proletarian, but a social movement against the state and its savage repression. In Spain, July 1936, the initial response to Franco (in Barcelona above all, the mass strike, storming of the barracks, and the arming of the workers) was more evidently working class, given all the traditions of the European and Spanish proletariat. But in both cases, the bourgeoisie nationally and internationally spares no effort to drag this class reaction onto a different front - war between bourgeois camps. This doesn't mean that the bourgeoisie has now got total control - after all, it is still reeling from a severe shock to its rule. But it does mean that a fundamental shift in the balance of forces has taken place, and any proletarian reactions will now be highly defensive and minority based. This is a call to the movements in Egypt, Tunisia, and internationally to express their solidarity with the oppressed in Libya by taking their own struggles onto a new stage - not least at the political level.
Alf Are you seriously
Alf
Are you seriously comparing Spain in 1936 with Libya today? There was aclass movement in Spain for years before the generals' revolt (and the Spanish working class had not been involved in WW1). There were class-based movements (however indequate they turned out to be). There is no comparison...
There are huge differences
There are huge differences between Spain 1936 and the situation in North Africa today, and I already made the point that the working class in Spain had a far more profound experience than the working class in Libya, which is one of the reasons it has been drawn into this trap so quickly. But what is striking about today is the way the ruling class has intervened so rapidly to push a social conflict towards a battle on the military fronts, with the international bourgeoisie jumping in right away to back the contending forces (although not many are supporting Gaddafi at the moment). Obviously, if you don't think there was any initial social revolt, the comparison with Spain makes less sense. I also tried to distinguish between a proletarian movement and a more general popular revolt.
Alf wrote: I think there are
Alf
Cleishbotham
I have to agree with Jock here. I don't think that there is any comparison that can usefully be made with Spain whatsoever.
Alf
These are quite amorphous terms. What do they actually mean? Certainly in 1936 in Spain there was a workers revolt, which was built on a history of class struggle. It is not that the comparison falls down quantitively, but also qualitatively. There is no evidence for any working class expressions at all in the recent events in Libya. On the contrary, from the start it has been a struggle in which neither side had anything to offer the working class except dragging them into a civil war.
Devrim
I think that the original
I think that the original protests came 'from below' and were not mobilised by the bourgeoisie; on the contrary, the elements of the old regime began jumping ship and regrouping once the protests started. They now seem to have largely succeeded in their work of recuperation. As I said the fact that the protests were 'popular' rather than proletarian made them much more vulnerable to the machinations of the ruling class. But this distinction between different kinds of revolt poses theoretical questions which should perhaps be developed on a different thread.
the mercenaries appear to be
the mercenaries appear to be less african and more syrian/eastern european:
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=211101
It looks like the SAS minders
It looks like the SAS minders wanted to go in the hard way. They could have landed at the port of Benghazi and taken to what's solidifying as the government's in waiting HQ. The ground work had been done and the group could have entered, even armed, with diplomatic status. Instead they went right over the top, landing in the middle of the night and guaranteed to attract attention from the armed and nervous regulars and irregulars nearby. This was a mission organised by boneheads and is a bit of blow to the interests of Britain in the short term.
There are reports on the BBC this morning that US special forces are active on Libya's borders and that plans have been drawn up to supply arms to the rebels. At the moment, Gaddafi is showing a certain amount of "restraint" in his use of weapons.
I agree with the idea of a social revolt in Libya in the context of unemployment, repression and the general movement in the region. In the absence of a working class stamp on the movement, it becomes open to a faction fight and the wider forces of imperialism. I've read the ICT position on Libya which seems to put everything down to "tribalism" from the beginning. That should also be pursued elsewhere.
Just a point that I forgot to
Just a point that I forgot to add and which I think is important in relation to the manoeuvres of British imperialism, is the fact that the British have also maintained close contact with the Gaddafi regime as the Foreign Secretary admitted yesterday. Having a foot in both opposing camps is not unusual for British foreign policy.
Devrim wrote: There is no
Devrim
1. What exactly are "working class expressions"? Are they limited to strikes and other forms of industrial disputes? If so, is it possible for unemployed workers or unwaged workers to take part in "working class expressions"?
2. re "From the start...neither side has anything to offer the working class...". My understanding was that at the start it was a revolt by people, including working class people, for getting rid of Ghadaffi. The fact that that has since degenerated into a civil war, does not justify a "from the start" position, unless you adopt the time-traveler perspective that the future retrospectively limits the present. Or, unless you adopt the position that the working class has no real interests in whether it lives under dictatorship or liberal democracy (or fascism) within capitalism. Is it really your position that properly class conscious workers should be opposed to any attempt to overthrow the dictatorship they may live under, as part of a properly "internationalist" perspective?
Meanwhile, the degeneration
Meanwhile, the degeneration of British foreign office gameplay continues to decline from Graham Greene to Rowan Atkinson.
We were just checking out the hotels...
(BBC)
ocelot wrote: 1. What exactly
ocelot
Things like 'Cor Blimey'? No, it is a mistake, I was writing quickly before I went to work. I meant to say something like 'expressions of working class struggle'.
ocelot
No, but what I meant was that certain things are visible, and others are not. Strikes have a tendency to be reported, whereas mass meetings in working class districts might pass by unnoticed by the media.
ocelot
I think that it has been quite clear from the start that this movement didn't have anything to offer the working class. The term 'the people' is an amorphous mass, and generally 'people's struggles' have a tendency for the working class to end up following interests contradictory to its own.
Devrim
Ban the ICC from this thread
Ban the ICC from this thread as an interim solution while you sum up the collective guts to ban them permanently. Libya's too important for their hijacking and Machiavellian idiot recruitment strategies. I wouldn't mind Devrim being excluded from it.
The ICC discussion seems to
The ICC discussion seems to be a spillover from a reasonably interesting debate on their own site. I hadn't really seen it as disrupting anything but if anyone has a problem with it then maybe they could split the thread.
Caiman del Barrio Why do you
Caiman del Barrio
Why do you want to ban the ICC from this thread especially when two of them (Devrim and Alf) clearly are expressing seriously different points of view (unless of course you think this is all part of their "recruitment strategy").
I can understand past frustrations with the ICC but libcom will become be libdemcom if it invokes the banning of an independent communist like Devrim...
Devrim wrote: ocelot
Devrim
First off, my problem with the formula "this movement doesn't/didn't have anything to offer the working class" is that it starts from the assumption of separation between the two. As if movements were horses galloping down the turf and the working class was the punters on the other side of the rail, clutching their betting slips hopefully. It conjures up an idea of "opt-in" history, where movements happen independently of the working class whose role is then to observe and either choose to opt-in, having run a revolutionary cost-benefit analysis on the situation, or remain passive. To me that seems a peculiar and not at all correct perspective. Of an ilk with practice of apprehending the present with the same tools that historians apprehend the past - to deal with the pressures of being in the moment by pretending that the moment has always already passed, is closed of possibilities, so as to avoid the possibility of being wrong or mistaken. What the existentialists called bad faith, and which leaves no room for Georges Danton's revolutionary watchword: "De l’audace, encore de l’audace, toujours de l’audace...".
But enough of my pseudo-lit crit rubbish... I'm still not clear why it was clear - what was the evidence, what is the reasoning? It's not clear to me whether the proposition is, baldly, that the overthrow of Ghadaffi's regime never had anything to offer the working class? If that is the proposition here, then we need an explanation of how exactly, a large number of Libyan working class people's perception that the only chance of their lives getting better lies through getting rid of Ghadadffi, are mistaken. Or, if that is not the proposition, then what exactly is the proposition?
Yes, I agree with the above
Yes, I agree with the above (Cleish). I disagree with the position that events in Libya were all stitched up from the start in relation to a possible extension of the struggle onto a more fertile, and thus stronger, terrain, but the more events descend into two opposing bourgeois camps the more the working class will be squeezed. Also the more, however clumsily in the SAS case (al-Jazeera last night reported an exchange of fire after they landed), the major imperialisms intervene, the more dangerous becomes the postion of the working class and the general population.
This is an ongoing discussion on an important issue that could be continued elsewhere and talk of banning anyone detracts from it.
I am ignorant of the Libyan
I am ignorant of the Libyan working class struggles in the past, but if there are close to none, then Devrim made a good point. But let's turn it around and ask - what it has really offered so far and WHY? It may be more constructive way of debating the matter.
I find Caiman del Barrio's claim pretty uncomradely and offensive because Devrim started an interesting debate (I haven't read the ICC debate and its conclusions but I don't feel ICC is now going to take over... what exactly?...).
I would rephrase Devrim's comment. "There is no evidence for any expressions of working class struggle at all in the recent events in Libya." Does anyone consider this to be an untrue statement?
ocelot wrote: I'm still not
ocelot
I don't feel that the argument "a large number of [Libyan] working class people's perception that the only chance of their lives getting better lies through..." is really useful. It could apply to anything through fighting for either side in the Second War to voting for George Bush.
On the question of the class nature of the movement, I think that really the onus is on yourself to show that there is a working class one, as it is difficult to prove an absence. I can't see anything to suggest one. On the contrary from the word go, this movement has come across as Islamicist and tribalist.
Devrim
Nothing to do with the
Nothing to do with the argument above and probably ancient history by now but this Guardian article from September is interesting on relations between the EU and Gaddafi while they were still on the same side.
MT wrote: I am ignorant of
MT
I think the starting point here is that there has been no real working class organisation in the past because the regime was so repressive. For instance all the other north African countries at least have unions of some kind but Libya doesn't. I may have missed something but I'm not aware of any history of organisation outside unions either and I suspect it might have been suicidal to try.
Having said that I don't really know much about Libya and I'm not that sure of my facts.
Yes, I expected that as well.
Yes, I expected that as well. That is why my first idea was that Devrim has made a good point and I didn't understand why he got so harsh response.
Mark. wrote: MT wrote: I am
Mark.
Libya has trade unions just as Egypt does. I can't find an English link, but there is a National Trade Union Federation. Of course it was linked to the state but then so are the old Egyptian ones.
Devrim
But Devrim, the Egyptian ones
But Devrim, the Egyptian ones tried to disconnect themselves with the structure and when the chance emerged, they organized independent federation(s) - although with not very different politics I would say, but I see a difference here.
Devrim - I'll stand corrected
Devrim - I'll stand corrected then. Still I wonder if the relationships between the unions and the state in Egypt and Libya were really equivalent.
MT wrote: I would rephrase
MT
Yes. Depending precisely on your understanding of what "expressions of working class struggle" actually means. Certainly there is evidence of struggles that working class people are involved in. When in the past weeks the residents of the working class neighbourhoods of Tripoli tried to take to the streets (and were savagely repressed), the available evidence suggests they were trying to counter their grievances, economic and political, - their needs - against the rule of the current regime, rather than taking up arms in support of a rival state/regime. Particularly where you have long-term mass unemployment, from Ballymurphy to Benghazi, the class struggle necessarily takes the form of direct confrontation between unemployed workers and the state, as there are no bosses to strike against, or workplaces for the workless to occupy - the site of struggle of the unemployed working class is the street, inevitably.
So why can the struggle by working class Libyans against the power of capital that confronts them in the form of the state, not be considered as evidence of class struggle? That's an open question, not merely rhetorical.
Counter-arguments would be, firstly that composition does not automatically imply content - that just because the majority of participants in an activity are wearing Man U shirts, does not make it a Man United match. That is, the fact that the majority of participants in a conflict are working class (an sich), does not necessarily make that conflict a class struggle.
Secondly that revolutionary struggles are by their nature instances of asymmetric warfare. To the extent that the initial surge of contestation is blocked and the situation degenerates into civil war where the insurgent side begins to mirror the command structures of the enemy it is fighting, until the logic of symmetrical conflict produces two sides that are increasingly difficult to distinguish the one from the other.
In relation to both these counter-arguments, I'd say both that we lack sufficient information and that the situation is still likely somewhat fluid.
But in relation to the proposition "There is no evidence for any expressions of working class struggle at all in the recent events in Libya." I'd have to say that there is insufficient information to assess the class compositional (or decompositional) effects of the current struggles.
I am a proponent of the first
I am a proponent of the first argument (the same as in the case of Egypt and, well, generally).
You say we lack the information, which i agree with, but still you respond "Yes." to the posed question, which i find pretty confusing...
So just to be clear we're now
So just to be clear we're now going to stop posting updates about the situation or discussing its trajectory in any concrete way, we're just going to argue back and forth as to whether any of it 'counts' as class struggle in the bizarre otherworld of the ultra-left?
Devrim wrote: ...from the
Devrim
I'd be interested in knowing why it came across that way to you?
Yorkie Bar wrote: So just to
Yorkie Bar
Are you asking on behalf of someone? I haven't seen you posting updates here much. And as for the argumentation - well, call it what you like, but to me it is an attempt to figure out the nature of the revolt(s) which something very material not "otherworld"...
speaking of
speaking of updates
Guardian
Sounds like a potential for a Grozny-style outcome in Zawiyah. On the armour question though, we have this militarist contribution
On the nature of the revolt.
On the nature of the revolt. There seems to have been a shift. The first days, there were demonstrations,street fights and so on, in cities where unemployment is high (Benghazi and so on). Police and soldiers mostly sided with demonstrators, some kind of committee structure was formed. How these commitees were formed is unclear. It seems that notables (judges and so on) quickly came to the foreground, but it also seems that the involvement of the population was strong and genuine. Some sort of self-organisation seems to have been developing. All kind of bourgois forces operated in that context and, after a while, came to dminaten (lots of ex-Kadhafi functionaries, now apparently in the lead, for instance). But the committee context in which they operated was not exactly their favourite terrain. At that stage, this was not just another bourgois camp against the other.
However, the more the thing turns in civil war, the more the anti-Kadhafi forces are reorganising, more and more in the direction of just another interim government, a bourgois structure. But there seem to be counterforces operating: things don't run smoothly. Also, the fact that there was a call to return to work in Benghazi, emanating from some of these committees, strongly suggest that lots of people were NOT at their work before that. You dont't call people back to work if they are all unemployed anyway. This call sounded like a restauration of bourgeois order. That suggests that bourgois order had been quite shaken at the very least, otherwise there would not have been anything to restore.
The way the anti-Kadhafi forces fight their war does not suggest bourgeois business-as-usual, either. I woukld think w that what we are seeing has been a revolt with strong working class undertones, degenerating into civil war under, still contested, bourgeois leadership (the rebvel leaders didn't want to march westwards too soon; lots of insurgenst marched westwards anyway, almost to the outskirts of Sirte..)
Then, even if there is now bourgois domination of the revolt, I think thast it is not in a tribalist or Islamist fashion. The dominant symbol is the pre-Kadhafi flag. That is a symbol of the Libyan state, a monarchy, but more important: a national state (a state with national ambitions). It is not a flag tribalist forces would be very comfortable with, I would think. And it would certainly not be the flag that Islamist forces would use. None of the reports from Benghazi mentions much Islamist presence. And rebel spokespersons insist that they want the WHOLE of Libya rid of Kadhafi, under new leadership as it were.
So yes, the revolt is more and more unde bourgeois leadership, unfortunately. But they seem to be fighting for bourgois liberal democracy, not for Islamism of a restauration of tribal autonomy. Whether there is a basis for a funtcioning liberal set-up in Libya is another matter. But it does not seem true to paint the rebellion as tribalist/ Islamist.
By the way, I see no reason to ban anyone in this debate. This is a debate worth having, contributions like Devrim's force me to think things through again and again, and that is fruitful. No problem, as long as we combine it with actual updating of the situation.
Quote: I think the starting
There were unions as Devrim said, there were even plenty of committees for the working class to organize their neighbourhood etc. but all part of implementing the green book. I also think that any call based on working class self-organization might be met with skepticism. Gadaffy used a lot of rhetoric about like that.
And yeah, any organization outside of the accepted Gadaffy ones have been brutally repressed, i.e. the people involved were killed (such as televising the hanging of student protesters in Benghazi or gunning down over 1000 prisoners that protested for better conditions etc.) or disappeared.
I would add that, purely from a point of view of living standards, the working class will be better off without Gadaffy. If not materially, then at least they will have the possibility of actually organizing rather than be afraid of getting shot or imprisoned and tortured.
Devrim wrote: On the question
Devrim
Devrim, I may be repeating a question that's already been posed on this thread, but honestly I can't find any answer to it on this page, so here it goes:
What is a proper, unadulterated working-class struggle in your opinion? What criteria must it meet to be truly revolutionary?
I agree with a large part of
I agree with a large part of rooieravotr regarding the development of the situation in Libya and also with his approach to the debate. The question of the class nature of the movement and its perspectives is, as others have said, vitally important. I have no objection at all if people want to restrict this thread to updates and continue the discussion on a new thread, but I don't think there's a contradiction.
Regarding the situation, I would say the key issue is whether the dynamic towards inter-bourgeois war can be reversed within the present situation. The two factions may not have everything under their control but I think the point has already been reached where it is not possible to reverse this dynamic except by taking a radical new turn towards class struggle, and I think the Libyan proletariat on its own is not well placed to do that. .
I missed this earlier Devrim
I missed this earlier
Devrim
Disagree. By accepting that just because the majority of people involved in a conflict, such as WW1, does not make that a class conflict, it does not follow that anything working class people engage in - such as deciding to fight against their government, rather than for it against workers of other countries - is also of undecideable validity. That would be post-modern style relativism that negates any kind of analysis. It is quite possible to make the argument that people who fought for their country in imperialist wars, or voted for George Bush, etc, were mistaken in their assessment of their interests. So the question is can you can construct an argument such that the idea that Libya worker's hopes of a chance of better life takes Ghaddafi's departure as a precondition, is also mistaken? I keep prodding at the question "did Ghaddafi's removal have nothing to offer the working class from the start" for the reason that a certain indifferentist position would reply "yes, absolutely". I'm not accusing anyone here of holding that indifferentist position, but when I don't hear a clear rejection of it, when the question is posed, it is surely not surprising that I keep prodding.
Devrim
From historian to lawyer :). But there is an asymmetry here. I am not claiming certainty in relation to outcome, whereas you are. What's more you appear to be implying that anyone who doesn't share that certainty (not only that the outcome is now certain, but that the outcome was decided even from the start) lacks a properly revolutionary perspective. Whence this certainty?
The purpose of this thread is for people to provide links or extracts of the available information floating around the web so as people will have a good chunk of material here to help them make up their minds about what is going on.
So why not post the evidence for your contention that the movement is overhwhelmingly "tribalist and islamicist" in character here, so people can inform themselves?
Devrim said: Quote: On the
Devrim said:
I may not agree with the civil war thing as I think noone could predict it would turn into a civil war (I think there were several possibilities of further development or end of the revolt).
But to go to the first part of the sentence. From my point of view, in the beginning (and even more now when we know some more facts thanks to the ongoing debate) I considered the situation the same way as Devrim. There is no revolutionary force and neither a sign of its emergence in the process of struggle. That means the revolt has nothing to offer to the class as a class against another class, as a revolutionary entity, as a revolutionary part of the working mass. Obviously, if the Libyan state finished Kaddafi and established more democratic regime, then it means more freedom. It means potential for many things workers can do. But then I think the communist debate becomes shallow, cos easily everything can be called "pro-working class" or how to say it. I hope I am clear in what I try to say. Basically, wehn a communist asks "why does event X offers to the working class" then I expect common understanding of what is meant by the working class in the revolutionary perspective, not in some democratic discourse. Sorry if I am not clear enough, would welcome further questions.
Quote: I may not agree with
I think quite a few people expected that, that is unless Qadaffy was outed really quickly.
but this statement operates
but this statement operates with a specific precondition. I mean, if there is a bad weather, the soldiers won't like to fight is something is a level of discussion that leads us nowhere, cos we don't know what the weather is going to be. but we don't have to go into this I guess...
Meanwhile, this has been
Meanwhile, this has been going in Zawiyah. Demonstrators against tanks.
All I am saying is that the
All I am saying is that the possibility of bloodshed and war was much much greater in Libya (as with Bahrain) than in say Egypt or Tunisia. If shit hits the fan in Algeria it also more likely that it will be more like Libya than Egypt. It's not like the weather at all; if you are aware of the power dynamics in a country it is easy to figure these things out. The Qadaffys don't have an easy out like the Mubaraks; they are more likely to face a firing squad rather than the courts, prison or exile. Same shit with the Khalifas (?) and the security establishment in Bahrain; a minority Sunni ruling aristocracy that will all have to leave if the uprising is successful. In Egypt the power dynamics were very different; the army and elements of the old regime, if they played their cards right, could still be involved in the political arena post-uprising.