Protests in Ukraine

I find the article really idiotic. The idea that the EU is going to give Ukraine better education and medicine is fucking loony. Or human rights. I know this type of bullshit thinking of liberal kids from the middle class, who are part of the narrow group of people who might benefit, while the rest get privatization of education and health care and all sorts of stuff. Best yet are the benefits to the capitalists who will have an easier time moving jobs to Ukraine and out of other previously low cost locations. The biggest hypocrite of all is Kaczynski, who is always having problems with the EU but will say anything to be against Russia.

Sorry, didn't explain that he is supportive of the protests.

Yeah, I've heard two things about this recently:

1) A call for a national strike has gone out
2) Certain sections of the Ukrainian bourgeoisie have thrown their support behind a pro-EU line since the protests have developed.

I've also heard that up to 1 million people are holding a major public square. I also find it pretty hard to believe that the EU is enough of a driving force to bring out numbers like that (there's only 45 million people in the whole country), so if anyone knows what's really driving all this, I'd be curious to hear it.

Of course it is the myth of the West. There is not much to analyse here except why people in country after country fall for this crap. The interests of the bourgeoisie and wannabe bourgeoisie account for much of the propaganda and attraction.

akai, what about emigration and work in eurozone opportunities? Is that a factor in the protests?

I'm I being naive for hoping that at least some of this is frustration at two completely shit options?

Not surprisingly it looks like there is a strong nationalist and fascist element within the recent protests.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/12/meet-the-brains-behind-ukraines-massive-protests/281978/

jonthom

Generally this seems to be presented as a conflict between pro-Russia (largely conservative) and pro-EU (largely liberal) factions.

True in a way though out of the two pro-Russia parties the Communists are considered left and the Party of Regions does some left populist demagogy while out of the three pro-EU parties two are conservatives- they have funding ties with the German Christian Democrats- and the third Freedom are neo-fascist and want to expel the "Jewish-Moscow mafia" from the country, I find it interesting that Germany would ally itself with the far right in Ukraine so soon after WWII. There are a lot of red and black UPA flags among the protesters, in videos at least.

Edit: So it depends what liberal and conservative are used to mean.

I've been getting increasingly less twitterpated with mass protests like this. They always seem vulnerable to authoritarian elements globbing on and 'running the show'. Maybe its daft of me to think they are horizontal with libertarian goals in the first place, and thus they are not even being manipulated into doing stupid shit like looking towards parliamentary or executive leadership. Historically they seem to lead towards the propping up of new, totally shit governments. Though I haven't seen much of it with this Ukraine stuff, I have seen plenty of tub-thumping for this sort of thing in the US ala Occupy which was really just liberals trying on a direct-action hat and then realizing that they looked stupid as fuck in it. As it turns out, the hat was a fedora anyway, oh gawd!

I don't think things like Occupy or big square protests have a great deal to do with engaging in the class struggle.. If I'm wrong, and they do have something to do with it, maybe they should be treated more "hands-off" by our organizations anyway. At least not jumping in with both feet and getting mired in their bullshit.

*Most of this is directed at US folk

Did a bit of writing on it myself, here: http://libcom.org/blog/ukraine-whats-going-what-does-it-mean-03122013

An update on what's become of the Euromaidan protests

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/oleksandr-feldman/ukraine-protests-nationalism-anti-semitism_b_4588507.html

iexist

Don't like the US government stuff. I'm sure the US government showed its support for 'democracy' (there's a term that means nothing) when it gave funds to the great progressive republic of Saudi Arabia as it repressed terrorist women who had the ungodly termity to drive. I'm trying to replace James butler as the lefts word smith

clever, take it if you want it

So, on the RT livefeed, there are red and black flags in the bottom left corner at the moment (its a shot of the square where all the tents are). They're red on top, black on the bottom, and are bisected horizontally rather than diagonally. Do people who know more than me (ie anything) about Ukraine think theyre anarchos, or am i right in my vague recollection that some nationalist army nicked the red and black colours at some point, and these flags are a reference to them, rather than Makhno et al?

Video here: http://rt.com/on-air/ukraine-kiev-police-protesters/

EDIT: Never mind, looks like red and black are used by ukrainian nationalists, and thats most likely the flag of the "Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists."

bozemananarchy

I'm I being naive for hoping that at least some of this is frustration at two completely shit options?

this.
its unfortunate that their alternative seems to be 'third way'
what is the ukranian left's opinion on the protest?
Is there a ukranian left?
(the anti-portest laws seem like they'd be bad for them as well)
All I have seen are western news sources and stuff from RT
They did build a catapult, so I think we should give them at least some props for that

I was in occupy. The purpose of occupying the square was to create a space where an experiment in direct democracy was possible. It also served as PR. I don't think that anyone there really believed that they stood a chance at overthrowing the United States government. It probably could have turned into something had they not kicked us out in the springtime. It helped to radicalize a lot of young people and to give them some form of 'praxis'. It also opened up the lines of communication between what were formerly very isolated and insular radical communities. (you can debate as to whether or not this was a good or bad thing) I don't think we should reduce it to thought-terminating clichés like fedora-core or guy faux. A number of the Occupy pages were co-opted by conspiracy-type of stuff. What you see online or in the news wasn't really what happened there.

Is this protest all about joining the European Union or there are other motives? I was arguing in a thread in fb that there were other motives to the riot of these days but then I began to reasearch and I began to think I was wrong.

There is a Ukrainian radical left but unfortunately it is small and isolated. See, http://avtonomia.net/

I found this article quite helpful in understanding what is going on in Ukraine:

http://revolution-news.com/ukrainian-euromaidan-solution-putin-just-another-fascist-political-coup/

What about emigration and work in eurozone opportunities? Is that a factor in the protests?

One of. Millions of Ukrainians work in Europe, especially those originating from Western Ukraine. But we must not forget that part of Ukrainians working in Russia. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why the majority of Ukrainians supported the European integration.

Also it is important to take account of the regional division of Ukraine. Culture of Western and Central Ukraine aspires to Union with Europe. East of Ukraine is focused more on Russia - this Russian language region and its residents fear of violent Ukrainization. Maidan represents primarily the Central and Western regions of Ukraine

...But now situation fundamentally different. It is no longer about Europe. On the Maidan went million Ukrainians, many of them have no interest to Europe. State kidnaps and kills the protesters. therefore, they cannot retreat.

Deep Causes of rebellion?

First and foremost, the economic situation of Ukraine. Economy is stagnating, prices rise, many Ukrainians are dissatisfied with all of that. The protesters, many students didn't expect anything good after graduation. Many construction of temporary workers came to Kyiv from all over the country in search of work and some of them takes part in Maidan. (Here is the principle difference from the movement of "white ribbons" in Russia. In Russia construction workers usually come from other countries, they are migrants, and they, unfortunately, are socially passive. So they did not partisipate in the protests. One of the reasons for this passive - they absolutely powerless position and russian police repressions against them). Many teachers, doctors, specialists, dissatisfied with the working conditions, salary and prices.

Another big layer of protesters is petty and average bourgeoisie, owners and managers of different companies. This layer is dissatisfied with the arbitrariness of bureaucracy, the police, the bureaucratic control, the need to pay bribes to officials. A vivid example - "AvtoMaidan" and "Road control". The leader of the last one Andrey Jinja is arrested in the present. This is movement of the car owners who are struggling against police harassment and bribes on the roads. Disgruntled many among journalists - strengthening of censorship under Yanukovich, threatens to deprive them of work.

Another important element of the movement - part of Ukrainian oligarchs. Elite of Ukraine has never been united. There are lots of ruling clans. This partly explains the more lively (in comparison with Russia and Belarus) political landscape. But in recent years the regime of Viktor Yanukovych attempted to change the situation. Using political pressure Yanukovych, his relatives and friends ("family") began to step in to grab all profitable businesses of Ukraine. Hence negative reaction on the part of the oligarchs, which Finance the three largest political parties in opposition (liberals and nationalists).

As you can see, Maidan is inter-class forum. It is the same as the Egyptian Tahrir. It has the same idea of democracy. They are similar to the early bourgeois revolution. The proletariat is involved in these activities together with the opposition bourgeois factions and clans who fight against absolutism or dictatorship.

Maidan gives to working class a big experience of self-organization and rebellion. But on the other hand, prevents the development of pure class socio-revolutionary slogans. Such is the dialectics of the situation.

Thanks for the other point of view, the person on fb told me there was no social motive behind these protest and riots. I found she was contradicting herself because the state was employing their "dogs" to control the situation, whenever this happens there gotta be some social benefit that the state dont want to happen. Yes they are many factions inside these riots but is something that happens in a society with various ideologys.

meerov, much of what you write is true but is there not a danger for the working class and youth to be radicalized towards the far-right due to the strong presence of Svoboda and other fascist groups? I mean in certain parts of the west (i.e. Lviv) this has already occurred. While there are many "democratic" elements in Maidan, does not allying with fascists, or even tolerating their presence, seriously undermine any democratic aspirations?

The 'fascists' helped organize the 'revolution'. If there is to be an opposition they can't at this point be forced out. It isn't really question of whether or not the left 'wants' to work with them.

http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/23/awu-statement-current-political-situation/

"The ideology of the ruling regime is a mixture of Putin-style nationalism, conspiracy theories and conviction in their right, as elite, to rule over stupid populace. Groups of support to Berkut (the main riot police force) in social networks are full of anti-Semitic articles which claim that the opposition leaders are Jews and want to vitiate the people by legalizing same-sex marriages. This hardly differs from the rhetoric of Ukrainian right radicals."

The ruling class that the 'fascists' are fighting is also 'fascistic'
Libertarian proto-fascism is better than authoritarian crypto-fascism, no?
The Laws will become a serious problem for the left
They don't seem to have any choice but to be allied with the nationalists

confusionboats wrote-

Libertarian proto-fascism is better than authoritarian crypto-fascism, no?

Sounds like you'd settle for one over the other?

seems easier to combat than otherwise
anyways every Ukranian comment that I have seen about this claims that the fascists are a minority amongst the protestors
any popular uprising is bound to open the doors to a few provocateurs and street thugs
The coverage from both RT and the Western press have pieced together this story as if there is a US backed fascist uprising underway all from a few flags and statements made by a few right-wing radicals.
I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just trying to a kind of "ground truth" of the situation. It seems unfair to simply dismiss the protest as being 'reactionary incitement' when the laws in question do seem to be unjust

edit: just realised this was already posted (might as well leave the full google translate up)

The laws which were passed on January 16th showed that the faction of the ruling class which now controls the government is ready to install a reactionary bourgeois dictatorship on the model of the Latin American regimes of the 1970s. The “dictatorship laws” criminalize any protest and limit the freedom of speech; also, they establish responsibility for “extremism”. Parliamentary mouthpieces of the class dictatorship of corrupted bureaucracy and monopolist bourgeoisie are the Party of Regions and the so called “Communist” Party of Ukraine which has long ago become a political force serving interests of capital.

The Ukrainian repressive system leans on the police apparatus and street gangs of pro-government stormtroopers. Sometimes such paramilitary structures are commanded by retired police officers. Death squads are also in action. According to confirmed information, two people were kidnapped from a hospital and tortured. One of them died in a forest. Special forces use pinpoint firing against protesters, and not only from traumatic guns. One of the killed, according to a photo of his body, was shot in his heart. According to all indications he was a victim of a sniper. In the morning of January 23 the number of the killed constituted from 5 to 7 persons. And we don’t know the real scale of violence.

The ideology of the ruling regime is a mixture of Putin-style nationalism, conspiracy theories and conviction in their right, as elite, to rule over stupid populace. Groups of support to Berkut (the main riot police force) in social networks are full of anti-Semitic articles which claim that the opposition leaders are Jews and want to vitiate the people by legalizing same-sex marriages. This hardly differs from the rhetoric of Ukrainian right radicals.

Over the last days not only the far right confront the government, but also people of more moderate views. And they constitute the majority of the protesters. Many of them are indifferent to nationalism or negatively predisposed to it. Many of them don’t support integration into the EU. People go into the streets to protest against police violence. And a significant part of them is unenthusiastic or even skeptical about the clashes in the Grushevskogo street. Often one can hear that right radicals are a “Trojan horse” of Yanukovych and special services, designed to discredit the protest. Certainly there would be many more Kievites participating in the protests if there was a way to take those idiots useful to the government out of the streets. Top of their demands is to give them jobs in the Security Service of Ukraine after the “victorious revolution”.

Anarchists ought to participate in demonstrations and pickets which are dedicated to defense of the rights and freedoms usurped by the laws of January 16th. It makes sense to take action at one’s workplace or neighborhood and to help sabotage the dictatorship’s decisions. There’s not much sense in participating in the activities in Grushevskogo street, which were meaningless from the very beginning. These activities only give the government pretty picture for television and enable it to identify radical elements by locating mobile phones and videotaping.

In the case of the opposition’s victory, as well as in the case of the government’s victory we’ll have to wage long and hard war against any of those regimes. This should be understood. We need to gather forces in order to start dictating our own libertarian and proletarian agenda in Ukrainian politics.

No gods, no masters! No nations, no borders!

Autonomous Workers’ Union*, Kiev local

January 23, 2014

* (it might actually be group not union ... possible bad translation ...)

meerov, much of what you write is true but is there not a danger for the working class and youth to be radicalized towards the far-right due to the strong presence of Svoboda and other fascist groups? I mean in certain parts of the west (i.e. Lviv) this has already occurred. While there are many "democratic" elements in Maidan, does not allying with fascists, or even tolerating their presence, seriously undermine any democratic aspirations?

This this danger exists. It does not need to not exaggerate, nor understate.
But idea that "The ruling class that the 'fascists' are fighting is also 'fascistic"- is erroneous hypothesis.'

1) The idea of democratization prevails on the Maidan absolutely, as in Tahrir in Egypt.
2) The incredibly high level of self-organization of tens of thousands of people. Direct democracy and the system of horizontal interaction of thousands of groups and individuals.
Perfectly debugged system of defense, supply camp with all necessary. In the camp perfect order, all fed, clothed, people collect money for everything. http://zyalt.livejournal.com/
3) There is page of anarchist barricade in Maidan http://vk.com/vz.ukraine
4) One of the dead heroes of Maidan - armenian refugee http://vk.com/vz.ukraine?z=photo-39247395_319602234%2Falbum-39247395_00%2Frev

What is important and dangerous? People of Maidan tolerant to far-rightists and this far-rigts play an important role in clashes with police. This can be dangerous in the modern conditions, when the leaders of the liberal opposition is losing popularity (however, do you think liberalism is better then fascism?)

But actually, what did you expected?
This is not the libertarian socialist revolution. It is inter-class movement. And it was made by the hundreds of thousands of ordinary workers and employees who are infected with xenophobia and different other authoritarian ideas. So where will you take the other people?

This movement should be treated calmly and criticality. All you can do is to persuade the participants of the movement for class ideas and to maintain their self-organization and also critique xenophobia.

Workers of Ukraine learn self-organization, rebellion, decision-making on the basis of direct democracy and horizontal interaction. Such learn from legitimate trade Unions activities can't be accomplished. But let me remind you that even the Russian revolution ended with the victory of Bolshevism and massacre in which anarchists and revolutionary workers were killed.

yes I think that liberalism is better than fascism
bourgeois democratic revolutions are sometimes necessary to allow for 'genuine' socialist and/or anarchist revolutions to take place or to even be possible
The laws if I remember correctly include an anti-strike clause as well as up to 15 years in prison for simply participating in a political protest
It seems almost as if the libertarian socialists on here are going to wind up siding with the riot squads.
A check upon the reactionary violence needs to be placed internally.
and how is that hypothesis erroneous?
The protestors have (potentially ?) been slandered as 'fascists' when those that they are fighting hold similar sentiments - in a way it is a microcosm of the larger dispute
(I see nothing more agreeable in Slavic nationalism than I do in European Nationalism)
They deserve a third-option and one that is not 'third-way'
The AWU's position is the only Ukranian viewpoint that I have seen
It seems doubtful that the anarchists there would downplay the prevalence of the right in the protests when they themselves would be in direct conflict (but of course, they might)
The people there are protesting police brutality and political repression
It isn't so easy to simply get rid of The Right-Sector
It is necessary to be both skeptical and critical of what is happening there
but I saw this news link go from "protests in Ukraine" to "neo-nazis throwing firebombs" almost overnight
I'm not saying its not happening
just that we should be critical of almost all of the press on this issue

http://tahriricn.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/ukraine-ukrainian-anarchist-dispels-myths-surrounding-euromaidan-protests-warns-of-fascist-influence/
well that sure changed fast

iexist

confusionboats

seems easier to combat than otherwise
anyways every Ukranian comment that I have seen about this claims that the fascists are a minority amongst the protestors
any popular uprising is bound to open the doors to a few provocateurs and street thugs
The coverage from both RT and the Western press have pieced together this story as if there is a US backed fascist uprising underway all from a few flags and statements made by a few right-wing radicals.
I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just trying to a kind of "ground truth" of the situation. It seems unfair to simply dismiss the protest as being 'reactionary incitement' when the laws in question do seem to be unjust

"After hitler our turn!" Slogan of the KPD

Its funny that 50 million dead later it really did happen.

I retracted my standpoint after seeing further information from the AWU
--
should they set up separate protests then?
people might show up if they knew they had options..?

What about the police? What role they are doing in this protest?

yes I think that liberalism is better than fascism

Well, I don't think so. I am against fascism but I'm not anti-fascist

Antifascism as is bourgeois ideology as shown by ultra-lefts and Volin and by FORA- Argentina.

Also i think we need separate the mass requirements of democracy from one side and and liberal politicians\ideologists from another side.

Masses of people are advocating for democracy, try during the revolt of those or other forms, organize themselves. It is a creative experiment, in which the workers are trying to change reality, form the instruments of direct democracy. Their actions are imperfect and many workers are infected with xenophobia and inter-classism. But other workers class does not exist in Eastern Europe. And I don't understand, how can people learn social revolution, not revolting against the regime? So if you want to change something, have to work with these.

On the other hand, Victory of the modern neo-liberal partys does not lead to the expansion of any forms democracy, but it leads to the creation of a repressive police state, mass privatization, unemployment and temporary employment, repressions against illegal immigrants and aggression in the Arab world and Asia. In what way are they so different from modern fascists? Just do they look respectable?

iexist

"After hitler our turn!" Slogan of the KPD

sadly not just them, even among the (council communist) Rote Kaempfer circulated the opinion that the smashing of SPD, KPD and ADGB by the Nazis had paved the way for a rebirth of an anti-authoritarian workers movement ... a realistic view, that the defeat of the workers movement without a struggle in 1933 would be a catastrophic event with serious and longtime consequences was a commonplace only among smaller socialist, communist and anarchist groups

the complementary slogans of the SPD in that period were either "Germany is not Italy" or "Hitler's government will not last one year"

two texts I found on International Viewpoint

* Maidan 2013: A Multi-Dimensional Dialectic of Resistance (A View from the Left), a text by Aleksander Buzgalin who was during the 80ies and early 90ies part of socialist dissident circles in the Soviet Union, he is more of a reformist kind but the text provides some good points about contemporary Ukrainian society and politics

* a kind of Transitional Program by some Ukrainian Trotskyists ... not radical enough but too radical to win over other, more moderate forces

This is blog of ukranian anarchist and member of Autonomous Workers’ Union.
After some protestant have been killed by Yanukovich regim this anarchist write:

"...Or the country will be a real police regime like Belorussian or Russian, or worse, or the power will change... In the epicenter of events is now present on both the left and anarchists. This is not only a matter of conscience, it is a question of political expediency. In this state... there is no place for any of us. Fascism of Party of Regions (Ruling party) is now much more real then fascism of "Freedom" or "Right Sector" " (far-raight groupes, part of opposition)

http://shiitman.net/2014/01/23/pid-brukivkoyu/

I'm not saying that I fully agree with his reasoning.
And this is site of Autonomous Workers’ Union http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/23/awu-statement-current-political-situation/

I am antifascist first and libertarian communist second
liberalism for me is like diet fascism
anyways I don't think that discussion really pertains to this debate

The tactical idea I had was to let the riot cops and fascists duke it out in the streets while the left had time to regroup and organize etcetera

My full text is here
http://www.libcom.org/forums/news/ukrainian-uprising-24012014

I only have one source which is that interview but the political climate at the protests seems to be somewhat repressive. Anarchists and socialists are regarded as provocateurs and/or thought to be working for the ruling party. The CPU is alligned with the Party of Regions and so there is an unfortunate anti-Left sentiment at the site of the protests (although neither the AWU or the Left Opposition there regard them as a genuine left-wing political party http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/18/o-tak-nazy-vaemoj-kommunisticheskoj-partii-ukrainy/ ) Is it possible at this point to steer the people away from the far-right when as this article claims http://libcom.org/news/neo-nazis-far-right-protesters-ukraine-23012014 they are acting as the vanguard (this is disputed I have seen elsewhere claims that SVOBODA is losing power amongst the people and that most of the protesters are either centrists or liberals or simply in opposition to police repression) If not, I see no option other than splitting off from the right-wing protests somehow.?
-Of course this all to be decided by the Ukranians with whom I am not in contact

An interesting blog containing live updates and translations of news reports, etc.

http://maidantranslations.wordpress.com/

Yatsenyuk and Klitschko have been offered government posts:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25896786

If I had to hazard a guess, Yanukovych may be attempting to isolate Svoboda and the other far-right groups by drawing the other opposition leaders into government.

FatherXmas

Yatsenyuk and Klitschko have been offered government posts:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25896786

.

that's not much of a change
hopefully the radical element in the protests wont turn into 'nationalist revolution'
as stated before it looks as if the Madian folks are trying to distance themselves as well

My first post here, long time reader (mostly for a wider scope of opinion on various subjects), but I lived in Ukraine for 16 years, still have a lot of connections and have been following events closely, so might be able to contribute for a change. I will try to avoid repeating what has already been covered by the previous contributors.

Ukraine has been in a state of criminal terror instigated by corrupt governments since the fall of Soviet Union. The successive governments' domestic policy was to play pro-Ukrainian North-West against pro-Russian South-East, mirrored by the same foreign policy, using the geopolitical situation to add weight to trade negotiations with Russia and EU.

As a result of the struggle of two nationalist movements taking main stage, there isn't really a viable left on the political scene. Communist Party, while getting a heavy chunk of the vote is considered to be a "pensioners party" on the decline and only young people linked to it are the ones with a hope of a political career.

Ukrainian economy is vastly dependent on the Eastern neighbor and Russia has been growing increasingly frustrated with its inability to exercise its strong position to any reasonable effect. This dependency is real and a total break off of relations will be an economic suicide.

A number of gas-related conflicts have erupted, swinging Russia's internal nationalist opinion heavily against Ukrainians to the point of petty squabbles and name calling in almost all internet debates, full of insults and chauvinistic statements.

Once the cracks in the relationship of pro-Russian Ukrainians and Russians started appearing, the major internal nationalist differences began to matter less and Ukrainian brand of nationalism became prolific. Population is tired of constant abuse of power by the police, municipal officials, courts, impunity of ultra rich people, direct legalized takeover of cooperatively owned institutions, clubs, takeover of public land for private development in picturesque natural reserves.

The lower classes do not want to live in an old way. (Although the word class is misleading in this quote, Lenin has intentionally avoided it in Russian).

As for the elites, - they have lost the ability to effectively play the people off against each other due to the lack of governing skill and not having the traditional internal ethnic tensions to fall back on.

So we have technocratic/plutocratic government in a stand off against a trio of center-right (Klichko/UDAR), right (Yatsenyuk/Bakivshina) and far right (Tyagnibok/Svoboda) who are clearly sponsored and supported by the outside, Western sources. Their aim is taking course on European integration.

Do no get confused, - the only offer on the table from the EU is the trade cooperation agreement. Turkey had signed one in 1963 and they are still being rejected for the full membership with the right of movement, access to labour markets, European Court system and other perks that most Ukrainians really crave.

Ukrainian white supremacist groups like Trident, White Hammer, etc. have formed a group called Right Sector and saw an opportunity for a centre stage of the protest. Even though Euromaidan is a pro-EU protest, Right Sector reject the EU ideas and openly state that their support is only for the purpose of overthrowing the government with further politics taking a different course.

Main bulk of protesters does not care, they are prepared to make a pact with the devil to change the status quo for the sake of change. To the official opposition the Right Sector is useful, they throw rocks and make noise. Without them no one will fight.

Another factor is football hooligans, ultras. All right wing groups of young people not unaccustomed to street fighting or throwing nazi salutes. There was a lot of fuss around them pre Euro 2012 football championship in Poland/Ukraine with BBC documentaries on all sort of nazi behaviour. Never mind that, the official opposition has openly thanked them today on Maidan rally for joining the struggle.

The West is consciously using the right to help them reach the goals. Not much different to using islamists in Libya/Syria. Deal with the problems later.

Last thing I would like to point out that historically slogans that became official in the protest (Glory to Ukraine - Glory to Ukraine, Ukraine above All (a variation on Deutchland uber Alles, Glory to Ukraine - Death to the Enemies) date to WW2 and some very controversial events in Ukrainian history that only 10 years ago were considered extreme and confined to a small corner of Western Ukraine. These days everyone chants them without a second thought.

Time for bed, any questions - I would be happy to oblige.

I've seen flags of the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine and the red and black horizontal flag. One of the anarchists I think was saying that a lot Ukrainians seem to think that Nestor Makhno was a Nationalist. I know the red and black flag was used by Bandera-ists at some point (Ukranian 'Nationalists'). The Wikipedia for Makhno lists him as an Anarchist-Communist. Is there some confusion there as to whether he was a Nationalist. (has he been appropriated by the fascists in some sense?) Or should I read the RIAofU flag as being 'actually' anarchist?

These are not Makhnovist flags. There's no connection. Please read Neo-Nazis and far-right protesters in Ukraine

It seems that some on the far-right Svoboda party of Oleh Tyahnybok occasionally use red and black flags, this is not the first time its been done (see falange Spain etc)

[source: opendemocracy. 'If not you, then who?' Ukraine's choices are conventionally presented in terms of membership of either the EU or the Russian Customs Union but there are other ways forward. Photo cc Ivan Bandura]

I know about the horizontal red and black one
thought I saw this one in a video
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RPAU_flag.svg
re-watched it
turned out not to be that flag
I'm still curious about the Nestor Makhno thing

confusionboats, I don't think its so much that Ukrainians think Makhno was a "nationalist" per se. It's well known he was not an ally of Petliura and company. It's more that because Makhno fought against the Whites and Reds, they consider him a national hero, as someone who fought for an "independent Ukraine"; although Makhno would have understood this concept very differently from the nationalists. Nonetheless, its possible some rightists misconstrue Makhno as some kind of out and out nationalist.

Makhno's wife, Galina Kuzmenko, was known to have strong nationalist sympathies, and at various points in the RIAU's history nationalist units did briefly associate with it. But as a rule Makhno himself had only contempt for the nationalist cause.

Don't know if this statement from KRAS-IWA has been posted yet:

http://eretik-samizdat.blogspot.ca/2014/01/the-declaration-of-kras-iwa-about-power.html

http://www.euronews.com/2014/01/28/ukrainian-prime-minister-azarov-and-entire-government-resign/
so is this true?
what happens next?
oh wait
that was from tuesday
I didn't hear anything about the entire government

the reporting on this has ben spotty at best
most of the mainstream press fails to mention the fascist element of the opposition
is it like this with other far-right groups in Europe?

I agree with the essential point of the KRAS statement - this is above all a power battle between capitalist gangs. For all the social discontent that has poured into it, this dimension has been crushed in a way not very different from what happened in Syria. In our article we emphasise the imperialist contest behind the struggle between factions of Ukrainian capital.

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201401/9419/ukraine-russia-s-offensive-against-its-great-power-rivals

The AWU statement seems much less clear. It talks about participating in demonstrations "defending rights and freedoms", always a very dubious formulation. It sees anti-semitism on the government side, but not in the opposition. Unlike another statement I read by a Ukrainian anarcho-syndicalist on a different thread, it doesn't insist on the need for workers to defend their independent class interests.

We have moved a long way from the revolts of 2011 and 2013, when we could really talk about social movements that, for all their weaknesses, were tending to confront the state, and had a strongly proletarian imprint (in particular Tunisia, Egypt, Spain,Israel,the USA, Turkey and Brazil). We are passing through a much more difficult period.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/germ-f01.html for more info on the direct role of Germany in events in Ukraine and more generally on the muscle-flexing of German imperialism.

There seems to be some problem accessing the above page. The article is titled "German government announces the end of its military restraint" and is dated 1.Feb 2014. There's a further article going in the same sense on the same website today, titled "Germany, US push aggressive policies at Munich". Taking account of the WSWS "softness" on Russia's imperialist push, these are still interesting articles for both the situation in Ukraine and wider elements.

Incidentally, though it never really died, the reanimation of German imperialism is mirrored by that of Japan and the intensifying arms race and warlike tensions around the Pacific. The Japanese Prime Minister, rightly in my opionion, recently warned the Chinese that today's situation was very much akin to that period prior to World War I.

For fuck's sake, libcom:

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/to-journalists-commentators-and-analysts-writing-on-the-ukrainian-protest-movement-euromaidan-kyiv-s-euromaidan-is-a-liberationist-and-not-extremist-mass-action-of-civic-disobedience?share_id=RuGulkNKQM&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition

Regarding the above link. Gross oversimplifications are of course counterproductive. No commentators on the left are suggesting that Euromaidan is composed exclusively of neo-nazis/crypto-nazis. There is a diversity of forces in the square, including the far-left. The problem is that the main opposition forces (i.e. Udar and Batkivshchyna) not only tolerate the far-right's presence but they only legitimize it through their alliance with Svoboda. The refusal to distance the movement from fascist forces can only work to acclimatize, and potentially radicalize, the general population (especially youth and non-party aligned people). The above petition is correct that a critical eye needs to be maintained when approaching pro-Russian media, but it betrays its bias by making no mention of Svoboda and its history/agenda. Furthermore, the statement smacks of academic arrogance, imo. It is essentially telling the left to shut up and let the "specialists" do their job , and if we do criticize the presence of the far-right then we must be lackeys of the Kremlin.

Here is an excerpt from an AWU-Kiev statement dated December 6:

Meanwhile, we see that the situation at Euromaidan is fully controlled by the far-right. Ultra-nationalist rhetoric has securely crowded out all other topics there; the only slogan known to the protesters is “Hail to the nation, death to the enemies.” Most of the Neo-Nazi militants are controlled by the Svoboda party, but there are also other groups: UNSO, Tryzub, Social-Nationalist Assembly, etc. They are completely tolerated by the so-called “national democratic” opposition. One of the leaders of the Euromaidan, Yuriy Lutsenko, himself used to lead the Interior Ministry for four years, during which time he did nothing to stop police brutality or disband Berkut and other special forces. Instead, he promised to disperse protesting crowds with tear gas and became notorious for racial profiling of individuals of “Non-Slavic” nationalities and for his phrase: “You can call me a racist if you want.” Now at Euromaidan he publicly expressed his concern about the fate of “40 million educated white Christians.” Other opposition leaders also don’t have anything against the far-right. There are not only rallies towards physical violence but also poetry about “Yids” heard from the stage.

And here is a reasoned response to a similar statement from academics: http://www.criticatac.ro/lefteast/support-ukrainians-but-not-far-right/

In other news, it looks like the anarchists at Maidan have taken to forming their own "Left Sector":
http://anarchy.kalarupa.com/2014/anarcho-hundred/#more-531

Madman Defarge

For fuck's sake, libcom:

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/to-journalists-commentators-and-analysts-writing-on-the-ukrainian-protest-movement-euromaidan-kyiv-s-euromaidan-is-a-liberationist-and-not-extremist-mass-action-of-civic-disobedience?share_id=RuGulkNKQM&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition

So don't support the far-right, support the conservative right. Why should anyone vaguely leftist support a "pro-European [that is EU] movement." This is what the EU representative to Egypt said today about its new fascist constitution:
EU never saw Morsi toppling a coup, 'worried' about crackdown on [EU funded} youth:

"A European Union ambassador to Egypt has voiced concerns about a recent crackdown on young people and journalists [with ties to the EU], but praised the country's new charter as the best in Egypt's modern history.

In remarks made by EU Ambassador James Moran Wednesday, in his first local TV interview after Mohamed Morsi's ouster, the diplomat hailed Egypt's new constitution — overwhelmingly backed in a January referendum — as "very encouraging" and "promising" in the protection of rights and freedoms.

Billing it as "the best in Egypt's modern times," the EU ambassador also praised the charter for giving parliament broader powers, something he said is decisive in establishing democracy.
Speaking of the toppling of Morsi seven months ago, Moran said that the EU has never referred to the move as a "coup," saying that "what happened last year took place on the back of a massive popular uprising.""

Tellingly both Russia and the EU voice support today for the restoration of "stability" in the country.

And -back to the petition- of course what would white power be without racial demagogy about the child races:

We also call upon Western commentators to show empathy with a nation-state that is very young, unconsolidated and under a serious foreign threat. The fragile situation in which Ukraine’s nation still finds itself and the enormous complications of everyday life in such a transitional society give birth to a whole variety of odd, destructive and contradictory opinions, behaviors and discourses. Support for fundamentalism, ethnocentrism and ultra-nationalism may sometimes have more to do with the permanent confusion and daily anxieties of the people living under such conditions than with their deeper beliefs.

If that Cold War justification for fascism isn't worring enough the author writes

ordinary Ukrainians and high-brow Kyiv intellectuals are concluding that, although surely preferable, non-violent resistance is impractical. Reporters who have the necessary time, energy and resources should visit Ukraine, or/and do some serious reading on the issues their articles address. Those who are unable to do so may want to turn their attention to other, more familiar, uncomplicated and less ambivalent topics.

So while we whip up a civil war you go look the other way.

Debate between Stephen Cohen and Anton Shekhovtsov on this topic:

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/1/30/debate_is_ukraines_opposition_a_democratic

http://libcom.org/forums/announcements/disturbances-lecture-series-online-lecture-uprising-ukraine-background-pers

You may ask questions in bambuser chat

These photos don't actually do it justice, but it looks like Kiev has just gone nuts in the past 24 hours. 9 deaths, at least, are being reported.

Interesting use/appropriation(?) of anarchist/Cossack imagery in the protest square

left one says: "It/this is my land - anarchy"
middle one "[u] won't take us / with naked hands"
roughly speaking

https://twitter.com/zoontangmarg/status/427149857972051968

EDIT:
And here's Mkahno in the middle

And here's the fascists by same artist
and Brevik (advisory warning): http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/ermoha/12700637/82034/1000.jpg

weird cacophony

citation: http://www.strategium.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=35297

teh

and Brevik (advisory warning): http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/ermoha/12700637/82034/1000.jpg

That's horrifying.

Any idea what the artist's background is?

(Reuters) - Opponents of Ukraine's president declared political autonomy in the major western city of Lviv on Wednesday after a night of violence when protesters seized public buildings and forced police to surrender.

Raising the prospect of Ukraine splitting along a historic cultural and linguistic faultline, the regional assembly in Lviv, a bastion of Ukrainian nationalism near the Polish border, issued a statement condemning President Viktor Yanukovich's government for its "open warfare" on demonstrators in Kiev and saying it took executive power locally for itself.

In other signs of fraying central control for a government seen as close to business magnates from the Russian-speaking east, Poland said Ukrainians blocked the Korczowa border crossing near Lviv. And local media said opposition groups in other western cities, including Khmelnitsky, Ivano-Frankivsk, Uzhorod and Ternopil, also took over public buildings.
[...]
From late on Tuesday, taking their cue from the drama in Kiev that was Ukraine's bloodiest day in just over 22 years of post-Soviet independence, mobs swept through Lviv's picturesque city center in a spasm of violence that went unchallenged.

Erecting barricades outside a police barracks, the protesters demanded their surrender. Officers filed out, hands above their heads, and were stripped of their body armor.

The barracks were set ablaze, as were the office of the state security service and the premises of the state prosecutor. Rioters tossed papers through smashed windows.

Torched cars lay upturned in the streets.

"We are the citizens of Lviv," the crowd chanted. "We are the strongest."
[...]

As Ukraine leader fights for Kiev, west slips from his grip

FatherXmas

Any idea what the artist's background is?

His name is Андрей Ермоленко. Don't know anything about him. Searched on google. In this interview he calls himself a nationalist-anarchist : (very poor google translate): http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://radio.rkas.org.ua/index.php/19-sample-data-articles/joomla/74-andrej-ermolenko-geroi-kuda-vy-delis

In this tv interview for his art exhibition he says the main principle of anarhcy is that you can trust only yourself. http://atv.odessa.ua/news/2012/08/08/hudojnik_andrey_ermolenko_4565.html

Don't know if the Breivik thing is a provocation or a reflection of his own sentiment.

Any idea what the artist's background is?

He's a known right-winger.

Autonomous Union of Workers (Kiev section) declaration.

http://avtonomia.net/?p=8609

A mostly excellent text, which I unfortunately do not have time to
translate right now.

Last paragraph:

"This is not our war, but victory of the government will be loss of the
workers.Victory of the opposition also means nothing good. We may not
call proletarians to sacrifice themselves for opposition and its
interests. We consider participation to conflict as everyone's personal
choice. But we call everyone to dodge draft, realised my Janukovich
regime, to internal army, and also to sabotage actions of the parliament
with every possible means".

I do not agree with this position completely though. I think anarchists
(and workers in general) should never in any circumstances pick sides in
bourgeois civil wars, it is not a matter of "personal choice".

The usual political spectacle playing out in the US.

Washington Post

President Obama said Wednesday that the Ukrainian government would face "consequences" if it crosses the line in cracking down on protesters in Kiev.

Obama said the government is "primarily responsible" for ensuring the protests remain peaceful, but also warned that protesters need to demonstrate without resorting to violence.

"I want to be very clear, as we work through these next several days in Ukraine, that we’re going to be watching closely, and we expect the Ukrainian government to show restraint, to not resort to violence in dealing with peaceful protesters," Obama said. "We've also said we expect peaceful protesters to remain peaceful, and we'll be monitoring very closely the situation, recognizing that with our European partners and the international community there will be consequences if people step over the line."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/02/19/obama-on-ukraine-there-will-be-consequences-if-people-step-over-the-line/

It's amazing the level of condescension always taken in these sorts of US government statements on mass demonstrations in whatever country, where it's treated as a sort of game with the Western powers playing referee and certain responsibilities and standards of acceptable behavior assigned to each "side."

English translation of the AWU statement is up now:

http://avtonomia.net/2014/02/19/zayavlenie-ast-kiev-o-situatsii-v-ukraine/#english

I think the analysis is illuminating. But I feel the statement underestimates the opposition. As the statement suggests it seems even if the opposition manages to gain the upper hand, it may only form a fragmented government. But this does not make the ultra-right less dangerous. What can stop the fascist elements to start a bloodbath once the opposition formed some form of a government, especially since they are so disorganized and since the paramilitary elements are so unruly and independent?

Anyway, I hope the comrades in Ukraine will remain safe...

Asheville Fm radio interviewed an Ukrainian Anarcho-Syndicalist from http://avtonomia.net/
Here's what he answered about this:

Asheville Fm radio: I came across the website of Dimitrov Kutchinsky, that guy is crazy. There are also references to national-anarchism.

Denys: “Are you familiar with that concept at all?”

Asheville Fm radio: Yeah there are some idiots claiming to be that in the United States. In San Francisco, and New York and Chicago. Are they much of a thing in the Ukraine?

Denys: “Yes, actually yes. Because unfortunately this is a very popular trend – to mix with the leftist things, like (in adopting an) anticapitalism (narrative). The anarchist (position) is very trendy, cool and gives you some points immediately, but people mix it with national things, which also look very trendy and cool with the youth, mainly with teenagers who just don’t see any problem in trying to combine these things. And it’s especially funny in Ukraine because we have a very big myth about Makhno.

Today he’s an integral part of the national myth, he’s considered a nationalist, actually, because, well, he fought the Bolsheviks, therefore he must be for Ukraine, for independent Ukraine, and for the rule of the nation and so on. Obviously this is total bullshit, but this mythology is very popular and it adds to the popularity of that left-right synthesis, the third position actually, like Terza Posizione, (which is) the Italian fascist tradition.”

Asheville Fm radio: Yeah that’s the same phrasing that they use in the United States: third positionists. There’s also a lot of overlap of nationalism and regional bio-centric ecology, so that they seem to make invasions into Green Anarchism before they start to make it into the mainstream or before a lot of people became aware of who they were and what they were doing.

Denys: “I understand that, but here in Ukraine, apart from the New Age things, they are also very fascinated by the proper fascists, such as Mussolini, for example. They somehow are trying to mix it with anarchism.

Also you may be aware of the split in the Russian anarchist movement recently?

Asheville Fm radio: No, I’m not actually.

Denys: “Well there was a big split and that is repeated in Ukraine too.

It’s the split between the anarchists who support the minority rights, the feminist struggle, they pay attention to general issues, to the minority rights to the ethnical minorities, and the other macho-anarchists who don’t like all this ‘feminist b….t.’ They say, ‘We are cool guys, we do lots of sports and we are the proper anarchists, we don’t want anything to do with those pussies.’

Unfortunately, this manarchism is also gaining a lot of popularity lately.”

he states in that interview that there are somewhere between 30 and 35 members of the group
they may have grown in popularity since .?

Statement about the situation in Ukraine from AWU (Autonomous Workers Union).

Civil war began in Ukraine yesterday. A less than peaceful demonstration clashed with state defense forces and divisions formed by the adherents of the current government near the Vekhovna Rada (Parliament). On February 18, police, together with the paramilitaries, arranged a bloodbath in the governmental quarters during which numerous demonstrators were killed. Butchers from the special divisions finished off arrestees. Deputies of the ruling Party of Regions and their bourgeois lackeys from the “Communist” Party of Ukraine fled from the Parliament through an underground tunnel. The vote for constitutional amendments, intended to limit presidential power, did not take place after all. After their defeat in the governmental quarters, demonstrators retreated to the Maidan. At 6 P.M., the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Internal Security Bureau (SBU) declared an ultimatum to the protesters, demanding their dispersal. At 8:00 P.M., special police forces and paramilitaries, equipped with water cannons and armored vehicles, began their raid on the barricades. Police, the special divisions of SBU, as well as pro-governmental troopers made use of their firearms. However, the protesters managed to burn down one of the armored police vehicles, and it turned out that governmental forces were not the only ones in possession of guns. According to the data released by the police (on February, 19, 4 p.m.), 24 people were killed: 14 protesters and 10 policemen. Thirty-one policemen received gunshot wounds. Even if their estimate of losses on the side of the police is accurate, the number of victims among the protesters was definitely diminished. Maidan’s medics cite at least 30 killed.
One gets an impression that President Yanukovich was certain that by morning the resistance would be crushed, and so arranged for the Opposition leaders to meet with him at 11 A.M. on February, 19. As the negotiations did not take place, we can conclude that the government’s plan had failed. During the unsuccessful operation to clear off the Maidan, the citizens of several western regions occupied administrative buildings and chased away the police. At the moment the police, as an institution, do not exist in L’viv. According to the SBU, protesters have captured 1500 firearms. In less than 24 hours, the central government lost control over a section of the country. Right now, the only solution may be the stepping down of the President, however, that would mean that he, his family, and their multiple acolytes and dependents, which form a rather large group in the ruling government, would lose their source of profit. It is likely that they will not accept this.
In the event of Yanukovich’s victory, he will become a ruler for life, and the rest will be doomed to a life in which they face poverty, corruption, and the abolition of their rights and freedoms. Rebellious regions are now experiencing massive restorations of “the constitutional order.” It is not improbable that the suppression of such “terroristic groups” in Galicia will have the character of ethnic cleansing. Mad Orthodox radicals from the Party of Regions have, for a long time, seen the conservative Greco-Catholics as the aids of “Eurosodom.” Such an “antiterrorist” operation would be carried out with the assistance of the army, as the Minister of Defense, Lebedev, has already announced.
Today, Ukraine experiences a tragedy, but the real horror will start when the government breaks down the opposition and “stabilizes” the situation. Signs of the preparation of a mass-cleansing operation became noticeable as far back as early February, when criminal cases were opened against the Maidan self-defense divisions as illegal military formations. According to Article 260 of the Criminal Codex, members of such divisions may face imprisonment for 2 to 15 years. This means that the government was planning to put more than 10 thousand citizens behind bars. In the regions, as well as in the capital, special “death divisions” are acting as a supplement to the usual police forces. For example, responsibility for burning alive a Maidan activist from Zaporozhye was claimed by such a “death division,” calling itself “Sebastopol Ghosts.” They announced that they are ready to subject Maidan participants in the East to similar treatment.
In the event of the Opposition’s victory life would be far from perfect as well. Although fascists form the minority of the protesters, they are quite active and are not the sharpest tools in the shed. A few days of truce in mid-February lead to conflicts between the rightist groups, resulting in several pointless and violent confrontations, as well as attacks on ideological ‘heretics.’ Besides the fascists, old and experienced Oppositionists will also attempt to seize power. Many of them already have some experience with working in government and they are no strangers to corruption, favoritism, and the use of budget funds for personal purposes.
The “concessions” that the Opposition is demanding in Parliament right now are pitiful. Even the Constitution of 2004, that they are trying to restore, gives too much power to the President (control over the riot police and special forces is one example), and the proportional electoral system, with closed listings, hands parliament over to the control of a group of dictator-like leaders, who can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Together with the President they will rule without obstructions.
Their second demand – the appointment of a Cabinet of Ministers composed of Opposition leaders – is altogether shameful. Are people risking their health, freedom, and life for the sake of someone becoming a prime-minister, and someone-else getting an opportunity to control the flow of corrupt-money? This is the logical outcome of preferring pathos-ridden conversations on “the nation,” and focusing on vertical structures tied to the same hated politicians, instead of developing ground-up organizations around financial and material interests. This is the main lesson that Maidan is yet to learn.
However, we will be able to apply this lesson in practice only if the current government loses the battle.
The Opposition inside and outside of the Parliament is broken into multiple hostile and competing factions. If it wins, the ensuing regime will be unstable and lacking in coherency. It will be as bourgeois and repressive as was the Party of Regions before their first show of force against the protesters in November.
The guilt for the spilled blood is partially on the EU which gladly receives money from the corrupt scumbags in Ukraine, Russia, and several African countries, while diligently neglecting to check the source of such “investments.” It is only after seeing the dead bodies of the victims of such “investors,” that it gets so very sentimental and full of humanitarian pathos.
This is not our war, but the victory of the government will mean the defeat of the workers. The victory of the Opposition also does not promise anything good. We cannot call the proletariat to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the Opposition and its interests. We think that the extent of participation in this conflict is a matter of personal choice. However, we encourage all to avoid being drafted to serve in the internal military forces controlled by Yanukovich, and to sabotage by all means available the actions of the government.
No gods, no masters, no nations, no borders!
Kiev organization AWU (Autonomous Workers Union).

http://avtonomia.net/2014/02/19/zayavlenie-ast-kiev-o-situatsii-v-ukraine/

I heard it reached over 25....

CONTENT WARNING!

Protesters being shot dead in the street by snipers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8#t=83

By their own admission, the AWU has no meaningful influence amongst the working class. Still, it is good to see left-libertarian ideas at least represented in Ukraine.

There are other anarchist groups in Ukraine but they are also extremely marginal. One group called Narodniy Nabat (The People's Bell) have been participating in the direct confrontation with the police forces. From what I can gather (and its difficult to nail down with absolute accuracy) they have adopted the strategy of a temporary armistice with some of the far-right groups, whom they had been previously been trading blows, in order to focus on the bigger enemy of the state.

There is another group called Volnaya Zemlya, which I know next to nothing about except that their flag has flown next to Narodniy Nabat on the barricades. There is also something called "Blackmaidan" which from what I gather is an attempt to unify the anarchist forces at Maidan, although I don't know specifically what activities/actions are done by them.

Finally there is "Autonomous Resistance" who I have seen called anarchists but in reality they are national-anarchists. All of these groups' social media pages can be found by searching vkontakte.

There are also a host of other far-left non-anarchist groups that likewise garner very little support. The left as a whole is completely unrepresented at the national level and pretty much non-existent in the popular Ukrainian mind. While the Communist Party totes itself as a left-wing option they are thoroughly corrupt and closely tied to the Party of Regions. They are also a party in quick decline as can be seen from their electoral returns over the years.

In the absence of any meaningful leftwing movement the people's anger is being increasingly channeled through far-right groups. In many cases individuals supportive of Svoboda or Praviy Sektor do not sympathize overtly with their ethnocentrism, but rather see them as the only forces willing to take real action. Svoboda is also largely considered "uncorrupted" as they are not tarnished by the current government or orange revolution's corruption.

As far as the working class are concerned, I do not know to what degree they are conscience as a class and how they are organized. I do know Svoboda called upon the workers to conduct strikes. It would be interesting to know if the far-right has succeeded in organizing workers at any level. I think most people think more about their day to day survival and support those factions which benefit them the most in the moment. The mining districts around Donetsk for instance are known for being very supportive of Yanukovych, due to his pro-mining policies.

The situation is looking increasingly dismal. I don't think a civil war will break out in the way it is often portrayed (i.e. West vs East Ukraine). I could see the opposition easily fragmenting, it already is to some degree. If Yanukovych manages to hold onto power, it is likely terrorist-type militias will conduct violent campaigns to destabilize the government. Another thing to pay attention to is Crimea. The Crimean government is vehemently opposed to Maidan and has already threatened to transfer its territory back to Russia. If they actually did this its hard to say how the Opposition would respond and what steps Russia would take to secure Crimea.

'Why should anyone vaguely leftist support a "pro-European [that is EU] movement.'

So you clearly still have no idea what the fuck is going on in Ukraine. Most of the people out in the Maidan don't give two shits about EU membership. They mostly just want their corrupt authoritarian government out and they don't want the Kremlin pulling the strings in their country. To them, 'Europe' has less to do with trade treaties and currency unions then it does with rule of law and constitutional governance. Which might sound like a conservative demand when you consider what living in a state without such things is like.

What kind of a 'leftist' turns a deaf ear to a people's pleas for an end to a kelptocracy that answers to imperial power instead of the people? What kind of a 'leftist' calls such a movement 'facism' out of rank ignorance and debased tankie real-politik?

"If that Cold War justification for fascism isn't worring enough the author writes"

What justification for facism? Are you reading something that has been written in invisible ink that I am somehow missing? I think that you need to send me your magic decoder ring. Or at least tell me which brand of breakfast cereal it came with.

"So while we whip up a civil war you go look the other way."

Again: how does a paragraph that invites journalists to actually take a look at what is going on in the country asking anyone to 'look the other way'?

Madman Defarge

'Why should anyone vaguely leftist support a "pro-European [that is EU] movement.'

So you clearly still have no idea what the fuck is going on in Ukraine. Most of the people out in the Maidan don't give two shits about EU membership. They mostly just want their corrupt authoritarian government out and they don't want the Kremlin pulling the strings in their country.

If the EU association (Ukraine is not getting "membership" any time soon) wasn't the main concern the protests wouldn't have happened in the first place, foreign diplomats wouldn't be visiting the protesters/government, and Independence square would have been cleared out months ago since "Western" governments don't threaten sanctions and unleash their human rights industry when governments, as you say, uphold the "rule of law and constitutional governance." Yanukovych is after all the constitutional elected head of state with only one more year in his term (What's the rush? Its the EU/Russia). It's the loser's of the last two elections who want to form an unelected coalition government, dissolve parliament, and hold elections while their base is occupying numerous strategic areas around the country. If you support democracy, which I don't, then you're taking the opposite approach.

And how is allying with the opposition parties - whose corruption and authoritarian government are the only reason Yanukovych made his political comeback in the first place and who want to and will release extra judiciously the plutocrat Tymoshenko, you know the one who made corrupt back deals with those evil Russians - supposed to achieve an end to "corrupt authoritarian government"? The opposition oligarchs are going to dis-empower themselves or do you expect that the extra-parliamentary fascists, who you would march side by side with, are going to have their national revolution?

What the protesters want is an alliance with German imperialism against Russian imperialism. This sets the stage for Civil War and imperialist proxy war. Even if war is contained early and there is a compromise between plutocrat factions the violence against workers will only escalate as John Kerry's statement today about the necessity for "difficult" "economic reforms" makes clear.
[/quote]

To them, 'Europe' has less to do with trade treaties and currency unions then it does with rule of law and constitutional governance. Which might sound like a conservative demand when you consider what living in a state without such things is like.

I live in a two party dictatorship and police state with the largest prison population in the world (1/4 of the worlds total) who's president openly and proudly holds a meeting every Tuesday to sign off on a kill list of his political adversaries. To the protesters "Europe" means White Nations, who they believe are politically, socially, and economically superior by their very essence than the rest of the world. Nothing else. Ukraine is geographically located in "Europe" and last time I checked the consensus was that Russia was also in "Europe". This illusion that the regimes that have supplied +$100 billion in arms in the past several year to prop up a family that rules most of the Arabian peninsula as it's private property in any way stand for anything decent, "constitutional", or "lawful" is dangerous.

And btw where I live this crap about "constitutional governance" being attacked, "dictator", and especially "freedom" can be heard by one of the two parties and their millions of supporters every time they, respectively, alternate out of office. Doesn't matter if their party has the exact same policies, the "country is dying" until they rotate back. And if some foreign power was to destabilize the country these people would be armed and fighting for freedom like there's no tomorrow.

What kind of a 'leftist' turns a deaf ear to a people's pleas for an end to a kelptocracy that answers to imperial power instead of the people? What kind of a 'leftist' calls such a movement 'facism' out of rank ignorance and debased tankie real-politik?

These are platitudes and demagogy. "The people" is Stalinist hogwash. Nation states only serve the ruling class. I hear these, the people, though and they call for kleptocracy and subserviance to imperial power. I don't think I called the "movement fascism." I called it a movement by a coalition of two conservative parties and a neo-fascist anti-Semitic party, opportunistically allied with extra parliamentary fascist movements, for the opening of Ukraine's economy to "Western" capital, which it is.

"If that Cold War justification for fascism isn't worring enough the author writes"

What justification for facism? Are you reading something that has been written in invisible ink that I am somehow missing? I think that you need to send me your magic decoder ring. Or at least tell me which brand of breakfast cereal it came with.

Whether its the genocide in Indonesia or the killings of thousand of teachers and trade unionists by the CIA installation of Park in Korea these crimes have been rationalized by "Western" ideologues as being unfortunate but a result of life being cheep in the orient and the natural "backwardness" of the Child Races. Mr. Umland, of Germany, is explicit when he writes "We also call upon Western commentators to show empathy with a nation-state that is very young, unconsolidated and under a serious foreign threat" (the serious foreign threat is the Soviet Union as Hilary Clinton described the new trade union between Russia and it's neighbors). This contemptuous condescension and rationalization of violence continues: "Support for fundamentalism, ethnocentrism and ultra-nationalism may sometimes have more to do with the permanent confusion and daily anxieties." Like US/EU arming and training Islamists in Syria and Libya (or Jimmy Carter in Pakistan/Afghanistan in the 70's) because "the people" in these countries are childlike and "backward" and these forces are natural to them, though abhorrent to civilized whites, so the "ethnocentric" "ultra" "nationalists" will be backed because the natives though "confused" and "anxious" idiots need protection from "foreign threats" (in all five examples the Soviet Union).

Like all racists the petition author objectifies to control.

"So while we whip up a civil war you go look the other way."

Again: how does a paragraph that invites journalists to actually take a look at what is going on in the country asking anyone to 'look the other way'?

Are you kidding me? In the last sentence he literally says agree with us (we are rational) or shut the fuck up (with a quite silly condescending tone for a 'petition'. Almost as if hes angry.) You don't have a problem with whipping up a civil war?

I agree with the internationalist position defended by teh above. The last thing that the EU wants is the integration of Ukraine into its already shaky ranks. Russia successfully "took back" Georgia into its sphere of influence after western attempts to detach it and Russia initially provoked this crisis with a diplomatic, economic and political push into Ukraine. Vanucci on the other Ukraine thread sums of the view of "supporting someone" in saying clearly that this is a proxy war of the superpowers but hopefully the "rebels" will take power in this "legitimate and righteous" struggle. It's a similar position to the dead horse of the "Syrian Revolution" still being flogged by some. For the working class there's no one to choose in this fight that is being fought on the ground of constitutional reform, elections and "opposition". As teh says, the opposition have already amply demonstrated their own corrupttion and anti-working class policies. Where is the working class in this "revolution" or "civil war" - it doesn't exist as any sort of independent force, not even in embryo. Worse than that, it is having the shit kicked out of any possible consciousness of its class identity as it can only line up as individuals in an inter-bourgeois faction fight taking place within colliding imperialist interests.

baboon

Where is the working class in this "revolution" or "civil war" - it doesn't exist as any sort of independent force, not even in embryo. Worse than that, it is having the shit kicked out of any possible consciousness of its class identity as it can only line up as individuals in an inter-bourgeois faction fight taking place within colliding imperialist interests.

I think this adequately sums up the ultra-left position on class composition.

s2w, Many thanks for posting that translation. Please feel free to post any future translations of similar texts straight to the news section!

This article is from the 20th but only just seen it (DISCLAIMER: it is unconfirmed and seems unreliable, see comments below). About a trade union building burnt down, killing 18 people inside. The building was being used as a base by opposition protesters. Most sources blame the police, but the government is claiming that fascist elements in the opposition did it:
http://workinglife.org.au/2014/02/20/ukraine/

Video of Euromaidan meeting attacked by residents who call them fascists (though the 'residents' themselves seem like Russian separatists?).. any more info?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ad2_1393083985

UDAR/УДАР (translates to "strike" or "punch") is a pro-European political party in Ukraine headed by Vitali Klitschko. On 22/02/2014 UDAR activists organised meeting in Kerch (a city on the Kerch Peninsula of eastern Crimea). However, people of Kerch was not very hospitable to Euromaidan supporters.
Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ad2_1393083985#T4OErtwsAMQTIg33.99

Steven.

This article is from the 20th but only just seen it. About a trade union building burnt down, killing 18 people inside. The building was being used as a base by opposition protesters. Most sources blame the police, but the government is claiming that fascist elements in the opposition did it:
http://workinglife.org.au/2014/02/20/ukraine/

The deaths haven't been mentioned since so I dont know whether that was a rumor or not (theories about its cause mentioned here and here.) I saw it burn live on a feed, with people climbing down the facade. The NYT article says that the fire caught from the fire barrier outside, but I saw huge flames from windows nowhere near that so I'm skeptical. The other guy politician says he was in a firefight on the top floor but doesn't explain the fire. This building was way beyond the front lines so if there were police attacking it it was in small numbers cause you couldn't notice them from outside.
Anyway that article is farcical. "Workers targeted as Kiev protesters escalate" "by autocratic Ukrainian leader"? The Trade Union building is the headquarters of the Party of Regions allied Federation of Trade Unions of Ukraine. The Confederation of Free Trade Unions of Ukraine quoted in the article is the union front of Tymoshenko and company (And the statement cited by the article as "slamm[ing] the Ukrainian Government over the deaths" says nothing about the deaths or the fire. The author just makes it up. Only example he gives of "most reports suggest" is the "Daily Beast" citing Radio Free Europe). So the opposition occupies the headquarters of the union federation its hostile to, it happens to burn down, and then cites this as repression of workers?

Here's a right wing summary of the politics of trade union bureaucrats in Ukraine: http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/27610

Here is an interview with an AWU member from February 20th:

http://avtonomia.net/2014/02/20/maidan-contradictions-interview-ukrainian-revolutionary-syndicalist/

another conflict on the brink of escalation?

http://www.neweasterneurope.eu/articles-and-commentary/1097-moldova-the-eu-and-the-gagauzia-issue

As the grand geopolitical struggle for Eastern Europe continues, greater attention will likely be drawn to Moldova, which is set to become the next major battleground in the saga. The omen for this has been seen in a most unlikely place: the Autonomous Territorial Unit of Gagauzia (known locally as Gagauz Yeri).

In contrast to Transdniestria, Gagauzia is not a breakaway republic but a "national-territorial autonomous unit" per a resolution on its status taken in December 1994. Now it seems that this once relatively quiet and unproblematic area of Moldova could again become one of the major scenes of contention as the geopolitical struggle for Eastern Europe begins to focus on what has long held the epithet of “Europe’s poorest country”.

During a recent referendum, voters in Gagauzia overwhelmingly voted against Moldovan integration with the EU. In it, 98.4 per cent of voters supported closer integration with the CIS-led customs union, while 97.2 per cent voted against closer ties with Europe. In addition to voting against EU integration, a referendum was held on independence for Gagauzia, in the case that Moldova should decide to continue its European path and possibly even unite with its larger ethno-linguistic counterpart, Romania. Mihail Formuzal, the leader of Gagauzia (known by the title of başkan) previously described the referendum as the beginning of true democratization in Moldova and highlighted grievances that he felt the central government in Chişinau was ignoring the desires of the Gagauz.

Interesting. But I think looking for the "next major battleground" is a little premature at this stage, given that the situation in Ukraine still has potential for a far worse cataclysm than has occured up until now. While the Russian propaganda that the fall of Yanukovych represents a 1933-style neo-nazi Machtergreifung, is a little overdone (and since when did Putin & co become such principled oppenents of anti-semitism, anyway?). The situation remains extremely serious. I think the interview with the AWU linked a few posts above, is extremely useful in getting a handle on the situation.

The main dangers are two-fold and possibly intertwined. Just because the horse the Kremlin backed turned out to be a nag, does not mean that the filly and colts backed by the EU/US are necessarily any more competent or up to the job of restoring the "reproduction of everyday life".

On the one hand the rag-bag association of Tymoshenko - widely distrusted as no less corrupt than Yanukovych - Klitschko and the nazis, could be stupid enough to throw symbolic but provocative measures to the Ukrainian nationalist cause, that would alienate the East and South, including Crimea.

Crimea is already more or less openly saying they will declare UDI as soon as Putin gives them the nod, and a number of Eastern regions/Oblasts may follow their lead, if it comes to it.

The current interim "government" has already shown some tendency towards Ukrainian revanchism by cancelling the language law that allowed Russian to have official second language status in those Oblasts where it is the majority spoken language. A symbolic law concocted by Yanukovych for electoral purposes, with little practical effect, to be sure, but a bad indication.

One piece of upcoming legislation that could be a major flashpoint is the extension of the Russian Black Sea Fleet's free use of Sevastopol after 2045. If the Kiev and Western Ukraine uprising really is a NATO plot as some more traditional minded lefties seem to think, then this is an obvious one for the new government to dismiss. It's also probably the quickest way to get Russian tanks parked at the Crimean junction with the mainland.

The second but intertwined issue is that the economic situation is now at a point where the state could easily default on payments. If police, army, bureacrats and public sector workers stop getting paid, then there's all the less reason for Crimea and the East to send locally-collected tax revenue to Kiev, or pay any attention to what the supposed government is saying or doing ("You and whose army?"). Magnanimous Russia could of course step in with humanitarian aid to keep the schools open (teaching in Russian, of course) and the balkanisation of the stete could follow fairly naturally.

Add to that a flow of Cossack irregulars from Kuban and neighbouring parts of Russia to aid their Orthodox brethen in the fight against the "Uniate and Polish vermin" and its Yugoslavia all over again. Except that Yugoslavia was already outside of Russia's orbit and had nowhere near the strategic significance to it that Ukraine has.

So a little early to declare Ukraine all over bar the IMF visit.

an escalation in Crimea would also trigger further conflicts, the 12-15% Crimean Tatars there are pretty much pro-Ukrainian and a conflict involving them would also cause at least some Turkish involvement on the side of "fellow Turks/fellow Muslims" (there are at least several hundred thousand people in Turkey with Crimean Tatar ancestry)

For anyone who missed this:

Just back from Kiev, Gabriel Levy will be speaking about the 'revolution' in Ukraine

- this Saturday, March 1, 2.30pm at No.88, Fleet Street, London EC4Y 1DH

(entrance in St. Brides Avenue, nearest tube Blackfriars / Chancery Lane)

For articles by Gabriel Levy see http://peopleandnature.wordpress.com/

Entdinglichung

an escalation in Crimea would also trigger further conflicts, the 12-15% Crimean Tatars there are pretty much pro-Ukrainian and a conflict involving them would also cause at least some Turkish involvement on the side of "fellow Turks/fellow Muslims" (there are at least several hundred thousand people in Turkey with Crimean Tatar ancestry)

Coincidentally just reading up on that now. I guess this means we'll see a sudden upsurge in concern for the plight of Crimean Tartars in the western corpo media any day now then...

Now if only you could get index derivatives on media headlines/mentions, we could finally turn all this obsessive lefty media-story watching into a proper money-making opportunity! :)

and like in Chechenya or Bosnia some Jihadists and Saudi Arabian "charities" popping up there among a largely very secular Islamic group

I think a direct Turkish involvement in Crimea is very unlikely, especially considering the total political chaos and approaching rounds of elections in Turkey.

true ... but I can imagine that e.g. the MHP will try to capitalize on the issue

You are right Entdinglichung they will. But Turkish state is shambling and crumbling on its feet right now, and it is already involved in two wars, one (or a half since there is a de facto ceasefire now) with the Kurdish insurgent army and the other in Syria... So, I think Turkish state is objectively too weak to confront Russia. And also an open war between Turkey and Russia means Nato involvement which practically means a nuclear third world war!

But nationalists would definitely try to capitalize on a Russian offensive in Crimea, there is no dispute about that.

Crimea is already more or less openly saying they will declare UDI as soon as Putin gives them the nod, and a number of Eastern regions/Oblasts may follow their lead, if it comes to it.

What's it mean to "declare UDI"?

~J.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unilateral_declaration_of_independence

A unilateral declaration of independence (UDI) is a variant declaration of independence that is established when the government of a constituent entity of a sovereign state declares itself independent from that state, and declares itself a sovereign state, without having a formal agreement with the state that the constituent entity declared its secession from.

Entdinglichung;

What do you think is the German state's position on Ukraine? Does it have an autonomous as opposed to the US? I recently read an article in WSWS.org about how Germany was trying strengthen its military standing in Europe. Is it true? How far do you think would Germany go against Russia?

In another piece I read about the EU/US position it was claimed that the west did not really want provoke Russia and they wanted to settle a compromise in Ukraine before the Sochi Olympics ended. Would you agree with that?

Wallerstein says that the nightmare scenario for Washington is a France/Germany/Russia alliance:

http://www.iwallerstein.com/geopolitics-ukraines-schism/

An interview with three members of Antifascist Action Ukraine:

http://www.timothyeastman.com/uncategorized/an-interview-with-mira-andrei-and-sascha-of-antifascist-action-ukraine/

This blogger has good interviews offering other perspectives as well.

Pretty good article here correcting a lot of common misconceptions from the right and left about the protests in Ukraine. However, the author does make exactly the same mistake he criticises in others when he mentions briefly Venezuela and the protests there:
http://pando.com/2014/02/24/everything-you-know-about-ukraine-is-wrong/

fighting corruption

"We are to undertake extremely unpopular steps as the previous government and previous president were so corrupted that the country is in a desperate financial plight," [Prime Minister] Mr Yatsenyuk told BBC Ukrainian.

"We are on the brink of a disaster and this is the government of political suiciders! So welcome to hell," he added.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26359150

iexist

Austerity here we come.

IMF'll fix it...

There's some kind of twisted resonance in the star of "Jim'll fix it" being a serial abuser, which would probably make a good blog post. The IMF as seller of dreams, using that cover for predatory serial abuse, etc. But I can't figure out how to do it in a way that isn't going to be either offensively crass or bait to the "trigger-happy".

mikail firtinaci

Entdinglichung;

What do you think is the German state's position on Ukraine? Does it have an autonomous as opposed to the US? I recently read an article in WSWS.org about how Germany was trying strengthen its military standing in Europe. Is it true? How far do you think would Germany go against Russia?

In another piece I read about the EU/US position it was claimed that the west did not really want provoke Russia and they wanted to settle a compromise in Ukraine before the Sochi Olympics ended. Would you agree with that?

haven't followed the debate in Germany that much but I don't think, that despite the pro-Ukrainian sentiments displayed by all the mainstream parties and most (all?) mainstream media outlets, Germany and its bourgeoisie wouldn't risk too much to damage the business relationship with Russia which is a (the?) major supplier of natural gas for Germany ... and without US, British or French support, the German army is a joke ... during a parliamentary debate last week, several MPs of DIE LINKE, especially Andrej Hunko (who is from an Ukrainian background and a former leading member of a breakaway group of the German SWP clone) and Sevim Dagdelen (who is also a member of the post-Hoxhaite DIDF) raised doubts about the "democracy movement" in Ukraine which caused major heckling

Also, first mention of Crimean Tatars on Radio 4 today programme this morning. Right on cue #2.

BBC: Ukraine: Gunmen seize Crimea government buildings

Ukraine's security forces have cordoned off two government buildings seized by armed men in Simferopol, the capital of the Russian-majority region of Crimea.
[...]
The men have not yet made any demands or issued any statements but did put up a sign reading: "Crimea is Russia".

They threw a flash grenade in response to questions from a journalist, AP news agency reported.

LOL. Loving their media policy...

Some analysis here:

http://peopleandnature.wordpress.com/2014/02/26/ukraine-1-yanukovichs-end-is-a-beginning/

Mark.

Some analysis here:

http://peopleandnature.wordpress.com/2014/02/26/ukraine-1-yanukovichs-end-is-a-beginning/

Not bad, and mostly coherent with the other accounts. However this section:

Q: The fascists and extreme nationalists are not the only ones organising self-defence groups, are they?

G. Certainly not. The Right Sector was substantially outnumbered by the Maidan self-defence units that owed allegiance to the “Civic Council of Maidan”, formed as the would-be voice of the demonstrations by human rights activists, NGOs and aspiring politicians (real, current politicians were not welcome).

appears in contradiction with this bit from the interview with Denis from AWU

Denis: As far as I understand, all the potential self-organization at Maidan is substituted by the organizational structures of the rightist political forces. Svoboda, Right Sector and Spilna Sprava occupy buildings and manage the everyday life. The parliamentary opposition also has its voice in these matters; anyway, everything is strongly dependent on leaders who represent the already established political structures. For example, there are sotnias – “hundreds”, defence units. Formally they are all under command of Andriy Parubiy – once a founding member of Social Nationalist party of Ukraine which is now called Svoboda, but now a member of Batkivschyna. In reality, there are units which don’t obey Parubiy or even Svoboda (like the Right Sector), but anyway the existence of “not sanctioned” units is doubtful.

A general update by the Autonomous workers Union:

http://avtonomia.net/2014/02/27/fifty-shades-brown/

And interviews with participants in Maidan. Their outlooks are somewhat more sanguine, for better or for worse, but at least it qualifies as a ground-level vantage point.

http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article3291
http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article3292

So, this might have been addressed already, but what exactly is that the right wants in Ukraine? Presumably they don't want integration with Europe? Do they have a scapegoat? Is it anti-Russia? Or do they just want power?

It depends which groups on the right we are talking about. There are tensions in the far-right, particularly between Svoboda and Praviy Sektor. Svoboda is of late has been promoting European integration but this could be interpreted as a strategic move for gaining more political influence. Their current position on the EU is ironic given that they are associated with Eurospectic far-right parties (NPD, National Front, Jobbik, BNP). At their speaking events they frequently have Eurospectic lecturers, so in many ways their position is contradictory. It could be that they see European integration as a temporary strategy for Ukraine to escape the influence of Russia, but I imagine that should Ukraine achieve EU membership we would see Svoboda aligning its position more closely with the other far-right parties.

Praviy Sektor feels Svoboda is too "liberal" and is against European integration. Here though it should be pointed that PS is a loose coalition of various far-right groups, so there may be varying opinions internally as well.

As far as scapegoats, the obvious answer would be Russians but they also betray their anti-semitic beliefs from time to time (e.g. Tyahnabok's comment about a "Jewish-Russian mafia" that controls Ukraine).

Overall I would say that the Ukrainian far-right ideologically seeks a "rebirth" of the Ukrainian nation along lines that fit into their concept of what it means to be Ukrainian (i.e. the sole use of the Ukrainian language, the promotion of exclusively "Ukrainian" culture) to the exclusion of other ethnicities. They draw upon a mythologized past most noticeable in their adulation of Stepan Bandera, but also in beliefs about Kievan Rus' as the cradle of Slavic civilization and the idea of Ukrainian Cossackdom as a bulwark against Russian oppression. With this last point, we sometimes see the co-option of Makhno as a national hero because he fought the Soviets. Despite their sometime objections to the contrary, they are culturally exclusionary and seek to enforce this vision through legislation. Hence, the proposals to have ethnicity on identification cards and the criminalization of "Ukrainophobia".

Well, looks like Christmas came early this year. That's super helpful, thanks papax.

Similar report by the BBC with interviews with Right Sector and Freedom Party affiliated C14 militias.

[youtube]Yv-KP8V5tAU[/youtube]

better quality here http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26394980

Paul Mason:
If it comes to shooting, Ukraine crisis means goodbye global economic order

Autonomous Workers Union:

http://avtonomia.net/2014/03/02/awu-statement-russian-intervention-uber-die-russische-intervention-erklarung-der-autonomen-union-der-arbeiterinnen-kiev/

KRAS-IWA and other internationalists from the Ukraine, Russia, Moldova, Israel, Lithuania
http://www.aitrus.info/node/3608

jonthom

Revolutionary tourists, thrill seekers, and parachute journalists suffused Kiev. Sen. John McCain, actress Hayden Panettiere, and French intellectual Bernard Henri-Levy[...]

Strewth. Neo-nazis is one thing, but BHL? How low can you go...

FT infograph on military mismatch

ocelot

jonthom

Revolutionary tourists, thrill seekers, and parachute journalists suffused Kiev. Sen. John McCain, actress Hayden Panettiere, and French intellectual Bernard Henri-Levy[...]

Strewth. Neo-nazis is one thing, but BHL? How low can you go...

Conspiracy theorists are known to highlight the 'fact' BHL appears at all the Western intervention hot spots with quotes about I'm here as a Jew or something. Not really sure what the implication is other than the usual Jews run/destroy the world nonsense.

proletarian.

ocelot

jonthom

Revolutionary tourists, thrill seekers, and parachute journalists suffused Kiev. Sen. John McCain, actress Hayden Panettiere, and French intellectual Bernard Henri-Levy[...]

Strewth. Neo-nazis is one thing, but BHL? How low can you go...

Conspiracy theorists are known to highlight the 'fact' BHL appears at all the Western intervention hot spots with quotes about I'm here as a Jew or something. Not really sure what the implication is other than the usual Jews run/destroy the world nonsense.

Maybe it's to say, "look these Ukrainian fascists aren't that bad, they accept the support of a French Jewish celebrity warmonger".

Impressive how an 11% drop in your stock market can focus the mind. Yesterday's Vlad the Conqueror becomes today's Vlad the "Let's all have a nice cup of tea and discuss this like adults".

Good summary of the whole "Fuck the EU"/Secede from Ukraine shtick, though perhaps too realpolitik for some peoples tastes: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-02-040314.html "Putin's army salutes a Nulandized Kiev"

More important than the cold war euphoria in the capitals though:

In Kyiv, Now Comes the Hard Part: The government of political suicides contemplates mortality. http://t.co/mj2JkfOUqL— billmon (@billmon1) March 4, 2014

If Ukrainians don't break with the parties soon they're fucked.

teh

Good summary of the whole "Fuck the EU"/Secede from Ukraine shtick, though perhaps too realpolitik for some peoples tastes: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-02-040314.html "Putin's army salutes a Nulandized Kiev"

It's not bad, although one-sidedly IR/geopolitical, as you flagged.

Also, some entirely reactionary liberal democratic politics, ie:

But the proper riposte to corrupt officialdom is to vote the bastards out, not overthrow them.

Which is what the UK Labour Party hacks would say to us when we were setting up the anti-poll tax campaign - "don't resist, don't break the law - that's illegal! - pay the poll tax and vote labour at the next election". Well, fuck that, frankly. If the electoral system is reduced to chosing between two sets of equally corrupt bastards, then overthrowing the government is a perfectly legitimate exercise of proletarian democracy. The problem is not that, it's the inability to organise a genuine counter-power that allows another set of oligarchs and their creatures to re-establish power after the overthrow of the last lot. But that's another story.

Incidentally, by one-sidedly geopolitical, I mean arguments like these:

Maybe there was no conspiracy to blow up the EU initiative, maybe the protesters attacked spontaneously, but the end result was the same.

Which basically say, even if the actual dynamics of the situation were not a top-down US neo-con conspiracy, because the short-term results are the same, we can ignore any other level of determination. Which is bullshit. If there's a nascent fascist war machine growing on the streets of Kiev, it really does make a difference.

This is what the unholy intersection between liberal critical geopolitics (which is what Peter Lee's article is) and old-fashioned orthodox marxist impulse to "the main contradiction" results in. A geopolitical reductionism that in the name of the "main contradiction" actually abstracts from the class struggle. The frame of geopolitical competition substitutes for the class struggle. In fact, I'd push the boat out and say that "main contradiction-ism" is nearly always substitutionist/displacing vis-a-vis the class struggle.

Speak of the [red] devil: Ukraine: against infantile realpolitik

That piece about Lindsay German's jibberings is quite good. 'The Left' has completely lost its head, which in some ways is good (because it exposes itself to ridicule for its idiotic casting around to find a 'better' murderous imperialism to support) but is also bad because some people may still be taken in by whichever brand of toxic bullshit (whether that's 'democracy' or 'anti-imperialism') that it's trying to cram down the throats of those members of the working class that are trying to get a handle on what's happening.

any idea who of the two is telling lies (probably both?!):

- http://borotba.org/statement_of_the_union_borotba_over_recent_smear_campaign_against_anti-fascists_in_ukraine.html
- http://avtonomia.net/2014/03/03/statement-left-anarchist-organizations-borotba-organization/

Neo-nazis on Putin's side

A prediction of Russia's takeover of the Crimea from 2010 (pdf)

From Channel 4:

How the far-right took top posts in Ukraine's power vacuum

A couple of posts from untergang.net:

The nationalists who want to destroy the Ukraine

The 'anti-fascism' of fools

Mark.

A couple of posts from untergang.net:

The nationalists who want to destroy the Ukraine

Eh, Anton Shekhovtsov is a pro-western hack. He's just doing advocacy for his side. The leninology piece I linked above has a hyperlink to a Searchlight article that explains the divisions agongst these far right groups.

Svoboda’s status in the AENM was clarified this spring: the party has never been a fully-fledged member of the Alliance but enjoyed only observer status, as the AENM is an EU-based group and Ukraine is not a EU member state.
Svoboda’s image was damaged even further on 22 March, when Kovács wrote an official letter to Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of Svoboda. In it he expressed in the strongest terms his indignation over the fact that Svoboda’s members organised rallies against ethnic Hungarians in Ukrainian Carpathian Ruthenia, part of which once belonged to Hungary. Kovács, a Hungarian Jobbik MEP, ended by informing Tyahnybok that Svoboda’s observer status in the AENM had been terminated. This information has been confirmed to me in an email from Jobbik’s Attila Bécsi: “Svoboda is no longer a member of the AENM because of its anti-Hungarian statements”.

A spicy bit of scandal is that Jobbik at the same time entered into cooperation with Dugin’s International Eurasian Movement. On 16 May, Jobbik’s leader Gábor Vona and Kovács visited Moscow, and Vona delivered a lecture titled “Russia and Europe” at Dugin’s Centre for Conservative Studies based at the Moscow State University where Dugin is now a professor. In his speech, Vona called the European Union “a treacherous organisation” that “took away our markets, our factories, and filled the shelves of our shops with western garbage”. Russia, at the same time, managed to “preserve its traditions” and, unlike the EU or the US, “did not worship money and mass culture”. According to Vona, “the role of Russia today is to offset the Americanisation of Europe”.
Jobbik’s leader even went so far as to declare that it would be better for Hungary to join the Russia-dominated Eurasian Union should occasion arise. Given Jobbik’s current leanings toward Russia as a potential centre of power in Europe, it may well be the case that the argument between Jobbik and Svoboda was as much about the Ukrainian ultranationalists’ anti-Hungarian statements and their pronounced anti-Russian sentiments.
For Svoboda, European connections have been a significant issue since the end of the 1990s when it was still called Social-National Party of Ukraine. Then it was a member of the Euronat, a far-right organisation formed by the French National Front. The SNPU and, later, Svoboda seemed to maintain good relations with Le Pen and the French National Front in general, and presumably it was the French ultranationalists who advocated granting Svoboda observer status in the AENM. However, since the Alliance was largely Jobbik’s creation (it was founded in Budapest at Jobbik’s 6th party congress in 2009), the French ultranationalists had limited opportunities to overrule Kovács’s decision.
In its home country, Svoboda used its European connections for public relations, image and propaganda purposes. It was the French National Front that consulted Svoboda’s leaders on how to make the party “more respectable” in the beginning of the 2000s, and naturally relations with major European ultranationalists also boosted the party’s standing among other far-right organisations in Ukraine. Therefore, after it had been deprived of observer status in the AENM, Svoboda started looking for new connections in Europe. Its new “friends” turned out to be even more extreme than the AENM.

On 23-24 March 2013, Taras Osaulenko, head of Svoboda’s international relations, took part in the “Vision Europa” conference organised by the Party of the Swedes in Stockholm. The Party of the Swedes is widely described as a neo-Nazi group; it was established in 2008 by members of the now dissolved National Socialist Front and is led by Stefan Jacobsson. The main speaker at the conference appeared to be Udo Pastörs, deputy leader of the most significant neo-Nazi party to emerge since 1945, the National Democratic Party of Germany (NPD), two members of which are now on trial in Germany for their support of the terrorist National Socialist Underground.
Another speaker at the conference was Roberto Fiore, leader of the Italian fascist New Force. European guests present included: Jonathan Le Clercq of the Land and People association (France); Daniel Carlsen, leader of the Danish Party (Denmark); and Gonzalo Martín Garcia, head of international relations of the National Democracy Party (Spain).

The links between Svoboda and Fiore were established as early as 2009 when Tyahnybok visited Strasbourg to meet MEPs from such radical right-wing parties as the Freedom Party of Austria, Bulgarian National Union “Attack”, Flemish Interest and others. These links were further cemented in May and June this year. On 23-24 May, Osaulenko and Andriy Illenko visited Rome at Fiore’s invitation, where the leadership of New Force and representatives of Svoboda discussed collaboration between the two parties. Svoboda representatives also visited New Force’s youth camp, and Illenko gave a talk about Svoboda’s history and ideology, as well as sharing his thoughts on how the two parties could join forces in their “fight against the liberal forces of multiculturalism and destruction of the national traditions of European civilisation”.

On 19-21 June, representatives of New Force, including Fiore, returned the visit. In Ukraine, the Italian and Ukrainian ultranationalists discussed the creation of a new group of European nationalist movements in order to “develop a new dynamic and strategic co-operation aimed at creating a new European political class”. Supposedly, the new group may be formed on the basis of the organisations that took part in the Vision Europa conference in Stockholm.
Between the two Ukrainian-Italian visits, on 29 May 2013, Mykhaylo Holovko, a member of the Ukrainian Parliament and Svoboda, visited the Landtag of Saxony to speak to the NPD. In particular, Holovko conveyed greetings from Tyahnybok and Serhiy Nadal, Svoboda’s mayor of the Ukrainian city of Ternopil. In a ritual manner, Svoboda and the NPD agreed to strengthen bilateral relations between the parties and parliamentary groups.

It remains to be seen whether Svoboda’s visits to its European counterparts are part of the creation process of a new pan-European ultranationalist movement. None of the parties represented at the Vision Europa conference is a member of the AENM, while Fiore’s New Force is unlikely to cooperate with the Alliance member Tricolour Flame, from which it split in 1997. Fiore’s previous “ecumenical” fascist project, the European National Front, which united representatives from New Force, the NPD, the Romanian New Right, Golden Dawn in Greece and the Spanish Falange, seems to have failed. Therefore, Svoboda’s new European friends may indeed need a new umbrella organisation that would unite political parties and movements that are – given the profiles of Fiore, Pastörs, Jacobsson and others – indeed more extreme than the AENM.

"So, if we are to go by the work of Anton Shekhovtsov, a scholar of far-right and fascist movements" we get smoke and mirrors (unless the author of the piece is mischaracterizing what Shekhovtsov wrote).
(Curiously, like Jobbik, the Right Sector leader in an interview posted earlier in this thread calls Svoboda "too racist" [in his honest opinion]).

As for this:

Ironically then, we see that those who denounce Ukrainian protesters as “fascists” because of a few groups (many of those who do this also happen to be on the left, e.g. AlterNet, Global Research) have become useful idiots to the Kremlin and these fascistic nationalists who are allied with them.

Dugin is not the Deputy Prime Minister of an unelected government nor does he have his own militias and increasingly the security services at his disposal. In fact, funny enough, the most, if not only, significant “National Bolshevist” (which the article claims is Dugins idea) leader/movement in Russia - Eddie Limonov - is in a political coalition with Garry Kasparov - who you might have seen on Western television in recent days as the democracy guy. The two of them are the public faces of the "Other Russia" movement. And then there's Neo-fascist Alex Navalny who many in the Russian and Western elite want to become the next Russian president even though he has no public support outside of a small liberal/fascist alliance.

And I don't think that Golden Dawn and Jobbik are "allied" or have any collaboration with the Kremlin - and there is quite a leap from Dugin to the Russian government- , though these alliances are always possible in the future. Russian fascists are divided in their allegiances and so far the only ones who have managed some success politically on a national level are anti-United Russia Party. And fascists in Europe were always divided by their national affiliations. Wasn't Mussolini originally anti-German? And Svaboda claims to be anti-EU also.

And this whitewash here

Golden Dawn did not hesitate to label the Ukrainian nationalists “Nazis” in pointing out the EU’s hypocrisy, which is a bit odd considering that most of these groups trace their heritage to the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which had to fight against Nazis and Soviets at the same time (despite whatever collaboration there may have been).

is just disgusting.

From the Nation a few days ago:

As far-right groups infiltrate Kiev’s institutions, the student movement pushes back

article on involvement of Russian and Serbian fascists: http://tahriricn.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/ukraine-paul-gubariew-a-tribune-of-the-people-in-donetsk-ie-neo-nazis-on-the-side-of-putin/

Statement by Ukraine's Left Opposition:

http://www.criticatac.ro/lefteast/left-opposition-ukraine-saved/

Here is the European parliament's adopted resolution against Svoboda from December 13, 2012:

8. Is concerned about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda Party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada; recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principles and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party;

It appears the EU has a very short term memory.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P7-TA-2012-0507+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

Here is a report from the Kharkiv Human Rights Protection Group detailing the neo-nazi past of Pavel Gubarev, the so-called "people's governor" who was spear-heading the Donetsk secessionist movement but is now under arrest:

http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1394442656

Revelations like this only underline the need for the international radical left to uniformly condemn both sides of the crisis.

I second iexist's concern. I reiterate that I too harbor no illusions about the radicalization of pro-Russian nationalism in Ukraine, but something about that group doesn't seem entirely kosher. I followed another link in that piece, "Chief Rabbi and others dismiss Putin’s 'anti-Semitic extremist' claims," and I can't help but wonder if they're in complete denial of the presence of far-right elements on their own side.

Interview with a Ukrainian anarchist

With the Euromaidan protests in Kiev escalating into the ousting of a president and a Russian invasion/declaration of independence in the Crimea, SchNEWS interviewed a member of Ukrainian student anarchist group Direct Action.

Firstly what's the situation now in Kiev?

Right now in Kiev everything's quiet, the new government has successfully established itself. It was very unpopular at the beginning but the Russian intervention in Crimea has changed everything, and now most critics have decided to support "their" government however bad it is. The police are patrolling the streets together with the Maidan self-defence units, and it has been announced that they [the units] may be somehow merged into the police forces.

What are the anarchists and leftists doing at the moment? What kind of projects are you active in?

Most anarchists and leftists have returned to criticizing the new government, the wave of patriotism and the austerity measures they are trying to push through. In one way or another different groups are trying to promote the social-economic agenda which has been strikingly absent in the protests so far. We are talking about resisting the austerity, demanding free public transit, opening all the raw data in the books of public offices etc.

Is the Ukrainian far right stronger after victory at Maidan? Do you experience more problems from neo-Nazi and fascist groups than before? We hear a lot of stuff in the news about the far-right taking over the government in Ukraine - what is the real situation?

Yes, the far right will definitely now become stronger. They have successfully forced their way into "respectable" politics now. Also, they will be much more threatening in the streets. I'm not sure they will give up axes and bats and return to gas sprays as their weapon of choice now. So, yes, the left will be hard-pressed in the streets - especially given that many Nazis are eager to infiltrate the police forces. So, we'll have fascists in the cop uniform.

How can anarchists and anti-fascists in different countries support your efforts?

Right now the biggest threat to the left is the Russian invasion. Even if it stops on Crimea, it is a very powerful factor of consolidation around the government. Many people say that they won't criticize the government, that everybody should support it right now. So, obviously, the patriotism stirred by the invasion is playing into the hands of the ruling class. The left forces abroad should condemn the war and show solidarity with Ukrainian workers, and not the nationalist and neoliberal government. We can fight our local nazis, but Putin's "protection" will be much worse.

Do you think civil war or war with Russia are going to happen or is it still possible to avoid it?

We all hope this can be avoided, of course. I personally think it is unthinkable to have a full-fledged military conflict on a large territory in the centre of Europe with 15 atomic reactors and a bunch of strategic energy routes. It's much worse than Yugoslavia which wasn't so important from strategic point of view. I think that under the most likely scenario Russian troops will stay in Crimea and it will be an unrecognized semi-independent territory, like Abkhazia in Georgia - at least that's Putin's strategy now.

[youtube]w2S0WGG3Ad8[/youtube]

Odessa (uploaded March 7) - no idea what it's about - translation anyone?

Nothing to do with the current national crisis in Ukraine, rather it is an intervention by members of the Union of Anarchists of Ukraine (SAU - which bills itself as the only legal anarchist party in the world), similar to actions by, say, the Seattle Solidarity Network. On March 4, 2014, headed by their veteran leader Vyacheslav Azarov, members of the Odessa branch of the SAU briefly occupied offices of GASK – the State Architectural-Construction Control inspectorate. This is an agency which issues development permits for construction. The protest was against endemic corruption in housing construction in the Odessa region. According to Azarov, the anarchists obtained some concessions.

Karetelnik - thanks

[youtube]fWkfpGCAAuw[/youtube]

Albeit from a slightly dodgy source and with a sensationalist conclusion I think this video is useful in highlighting certain US machinations and the frankness of the ruling class.

The Ukrainian Revolution & the Future of Social Movements: http://crimethinc.com/texts/ux/ukraine.html

Print-ready PDF pamphlet version of this article and the previous interview with member of Avtonomia: oplopanaxpublishing.wordpress.com/2014/03/20/ukraine-and-the-future-of-social-movements/

BBC: Ukraine far-right leader Muzychko dies 'in police raid'

Oleksandr Muzychko, better known as Sashko Bily, died in a shoot-out with police in a cafe in Rivne in western Ukraine, the interior ministry said.
.
He was a leader of Right Sector, a far-right group which was prominent in the recent anti-government protests.
[...]
The shooting of Muzychko happened just hours after Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov had held talks with his Ukrainian counterpart Andriy Deshchytsia - their first meeting since Russia's move into Crimea triggered a diplomatic crisis.

Ukraine's Deputy Interior Minister Vladimir Yevdokimov said Muzychko died after opening fire at police and Sokol special forces, who had raided a cafe to arrest him and fellow ultra-nationalists. The authorities described Muzychko as a criminal gang-leader.

During the raid, Muzychko fired at police as he was trying to flee, wounding one of them. Police then returned fire and captured him and three others in his "criminal gang", Mr Yevdokimov said.

"He was still alive as they were arresting him - but then the paramedics, called to the scene, found that he had died," Mr Yevdokimov said. The three arrested gang members have been taken to Kiev for questioning.

The old "shot-while-trying-to-escape" gag.

Interesting.

I do have to protest at the BBC's seeming willingness to blacken the name of "Ordinary Decent Criminal" gang members by associating them with neo-nazis, though...

Interview with an AWU member (in Spanish)

Envía un mensaje a los lectores españoles y añade algún apunte que no haya sido comentado durante la entrevista.

Estamos muy alarmados debido a que una gran parte de la izquierda occidental ha caído bajo el encanto del llamado “anti-imperialismo”, y sólo condenan las acciones de los Estados Unidos y la Unión Europea. Ahora mismo, el imperialismo ruso es mucho más peligros para los trabajadores ucranianos que el americano. Y es hipócrita atribuir una “culpa igualitaria” para ambos lados del conflicto. Es cierto que el gobierno ucraniano es extremadamente asqueroso. Está compuesto por neoliberales que quieren implementar reformas de austeridad. También, hay fascistas en el país y ahora son más fuertes que antes. Pero el gobierno ucraniano ha mostrado consistentemente que no quiere una guerra. Y el régimen ruso es un obvio agresor, la fuerza más reaccionaria en la Europa de hoy. Nuestros camaradas rusos del movimiento anarquista lo entienden, pero no vemos mucha solidaridad desde Occidente. Creo que la posición de todas las fuerzas progesistas debería ser condenar la guerra y la invasión rusa, y mostrar solidaridad con los trabajadores ucranianos (¡por supuesto, condenando a los elementos ultraderechistas y neoliberales del nuevo gobierno!). Podemos probar y combatir a nuestros propios fascistas, pero necesitaremos ayuda si los fascistas rusos dividen este país junto a los fascistas ucranianos.

Briefly he isn't happy with the pro-Putin 'anti-imperialists' - tbf they're probably worse in Spain though they're easy enough to find here. See the urban75 thread on the Ukraine for example.

Paul Mason visits Transnistria

Read in French: http://oclibertaire.free.fr/spip.php?article1506

Very interesting text published by the OCL in France especially at the level of its materialist and non-idealist method that analyzes the movement, its process and its dynamics, then and only after it tackles its weaknesses, its lacks, the illusions of its protagonists, their ideologies, nationalism, the influence of far right, etc. I translate this text in English and it will be soon available on Libcom.org.

http://avtonomia.net/2014/04/14/ukrainskie-shvedskie-i-polskie-sindikalisty-proveli-konferentsiyu-v-kieve/

Ukrainian, Swedish and Polish syndicalists held a conference in Kyiv

An international conference “Class struggle and opposition the right-wing radicalism” was held in Kyiv on 12-13 April. The event, which was organized by the Kyiv branch of the Autonomous Workers’ Union, was attended by the secretary general and a representative of the international department of the Central Organisation of Workers of Sweden (SAC), as well as representatives of the National Commission of the Polish syndicate “Working Initiative” (Inicjatywa Pracownicza). A representative of the international initiative gongchao.org, which communicates with working class of China, also made a speech. The open part of the conference was also attended by representatives of other initiatives and independent activists from Ukraine and Belarus. The total turnout was about 40 people.

There were reports on situation of migrant workers in China, working conditions and the class struggle in Poland, syndicalist movement in Sweden, the prospects of workers’ self-organization in Ukraine. In their reports the representatives of various syndicates presented their organizations and shared experience of political work.

The second section was dedicated to right-wing radicalism in Europe and Ukraine. Swedish and Ukrainian comrades described the alarming trends of recent years at the same time noting positive changes: in both countries, the society reacted negatively to the growth of the far-right violence. Anti-fascist work at the enterprises – in addition to open confrontation in the public space, becomes particularly important for the syndicalists the new conditions.

In the closed part of the conference the delegates of SAC and IP described principles of Red and Black Coordination – international network of anarcho-syndicalist organizations. They invited AWU members to the next meeting this autumn. On their part, the AWU pronounced a desire to strengthen inter-organizational communication. Specific decisions regarding international cooperation are to be taken by the organization-wide referendum which the AWU intends to hold this April.

The video of the conference will appear shortly on the AWU website.

iexist

Possibly the weirdest thing to come out of this. Crimean minister of criminal justice becomes anime star. The internet

Oddly appropriate. Also, the cartoons probably have more power.

I don't know if this has already been posted and sorry for guardian link, haven't had a chance to find English language radical sources, but this is some awful and shocking news. Guardian report places it in nationalist terms but reports I've seen have placed it more in terms of a clash between pro russia supporters and left wing persons versus right sector supporters and hooligans earlier in the day. So corrections and clarification are welcome. It appears some members of Borotba and trade unionists are amongst the dead.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire

Someone posted on Facebook:

Red Salute to Communist Martyr Andrew Brazhevsky, Murdered By U.S. Backed Fascists in Ukraine
"Andrew Brazhevsky was killed by neo-Nazis. Together with other comrades of Borotba, he defended the anti-fascist Campground at Kulikova Fields. Together with them, he retreated to the building of the House of Trade Unions under the onslaught of superior forces of neo-Nazis who attacked and burned the tents. Then the ultras torched the House of Trade Union with Molotov cocktails. During the fire, Andrew was on one of the upper floors. He had to jump out the window to escape the fire. On the ground, he was still alive. The neo-Nazi beasts finished him off with bats as he lay at their feet.
"Andrew was a staunch, courageous and disciplined comrade. He worked as a programmer, but his real vocation was militant political activity. Andrew was a staunch communist, who devoted a lot of time to self-education, read the Marxist classics and modern leftist authors. The Odessa left remembers that this modest, intelligent guy tried not to miss a single political action, and has always been at the forefront.
"When the neo-Nazi forces came to power in Ukraine, Andrew enrolled in Odessa militias to defend their city from the Nazis. Unfortunately, that day the superiority of the forces was not on the side of the defenders of Odessa.
"The life and death of Andrew showed the path of the fighter, a true communist.
"Andrew, your death will not remain unavenged. Neo-Nazis are not masters in our cities, in our streets. We promise to remember you and fight.
"Eternal memory to you, Andrew.
"Union Borotba"

http://borotba.org/neo-nazi_terror_in_odessa-_more_than_40_killed-_hundreds_injured.html

this narrative seems to be corroborated by this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9AMjLBIliw

the interior ministry is saying that people from inside the building accidentally lit it on fire, and that the dead included 15 russians and 5 from transnistria.

the information war is terrifying to me, i think i'm kind of a liberal about truth

MJ

http://borotba.org/neo-nazi_terror_in_odessa-_more_than_40_killed-_hundreds_injured.html

this narrative seems to be corroborated by this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9AMjLBIliw

the interior ministry is saying that people from inside the building accidentally lit it on fire, and that the dead included 15 russians and 5 from transnistria.

the information war is terrifying to me, i think i'm kind of a liberal about truth

Thanks for highlighting the article and video. It is very sad news. The information war? You mean ruling class media, ignore it? What do you mean liberal about truth?

Much of what 'Barotba' say about the influence and provocations of the ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists and the role of the various western governments may well be true, but I detect in some other statements on their web site a strong element of Russian influenced left nationalism which should perhaps make people more cautious about relying on them for factual information on the underlying political influences in the events of either the western or eastern regions of the Ukraine, which are perhaps more complex than the language used by 'Barotba' would suggest?

yeah proletarian. i mean the ruling class media, both out of 'moscow' and 'kiev,' but more to the point how many people i see adopting one or the other worldview. here in the states i hear a majority perspective of "russia is building up for a world war" with a minority that inverts it, seems to be watching RT etc, and is talking about the interim government as a fascist coup. spending time trying to get an accurate picture of what's happening in different parts of ukraine is difficult but in doing so i see mistruths propagated by both blocs, which i find terrifying because i still have a liberal attachment to an idea that there is a universal and inherent value in coming to consensus on the facts of events, and that without any faction trying to do that & both sides invested in instrumentalizing information down to a very small scale it seems like the conflict can only deepen.

does anyone see factors that could lead to the deescalation of the conflict on national terms?

MJ

does anyone see factors that could lead to the deescalation of the conflict on national terms?

None. The US has gone too far to back down and Russia won't accept a hostile Ukraine on its border. Also with around a dozen military bases defecting to anti-government forces in Donbass and the massacre in Odessa, Ukraine is disintegrating to the borders of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (and it is no coincidence that these two latter countries hold the most adversarial EU position towards Russia in the conflict http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mWfna7QjMCU/U05_wool9tI/AAAAAAAABJA/aTH7YjWzj2M/s1600/dh+scale+2.jpg ). This will be a violent process of course, as the Ukrainian government has no desire to become landlocked. Particularly concerning is talk of the Western Oblast of Zakarpattia rebelling after the 11th of May, as its surrounded by the strongholds of the Ukrainian Neo-Nazi and fascist movements and any massacres there will pull in if not the Hungarian government then at least Jobbik and other Hungarian fascist movements into the conflict because of the ethnic Hungarian minority population there.
As for Ukrainian workers, they've been debilitated by 25 years of liberalism and 75 years of Bolshevism so they can only assert their interests within each nationalist camp. (like the strikes in Donbass). This is reflected in the split between leftist groups in the country along nationalist lines.

proletarian, In relation to my comment above post 166 please also check out the other 'report from a visit in Kiev' post and the linked text from the AWU.

AWU-Kiev Statement on the Odessa Tragedy

[...]
Members of AWU wish to express their deepest mourning for the victims. They fell prey to the interests of the forces that consistently try to instigate a civil war in Ukraine. Sadly, large parts of the working class are disoriented and serve as merely blind puppets in the hands of such forces, giving their lives for utterly stupid and meaningless things and ideas. The immediate effect of the escalation of this tragically pointless conflict is the split of the working class in Ukraine. While some workers are threatening with a political strike in support of the Antimaidan, several members of the (pro-Maidan) Confederation of Free Trade Unions are being kidnapped by Antimaidan forces. Instead of taking a united stance against the neoliberal policies of the government, proletarians are busy fighting each other for the interests of various bourgeois cliques.
.
The final result of such policies will be a civil war in Ukraine, which will mean an ultimate catastrophe for the working class. We are not pacifists and will be at the side of the working class whenever it fights against the bourgeoisie, no matter what forms this fight takes — but this is not the case in Ukraine nowadays. The disoriented and weak proletariat will be busy engaging in self-destruction; the outcomes will be drastic fall of life standards, rise of unemployment and criminal activities, and loss of huge number of lives. All prospects of working-class self-organization and mobilization will be buried for some time.
.
We can see that this scenario is being pushed forward by the alliance of various right-wing groups, nazis, conservatives and Stalinists. It is important to understand that Antimaidan cannot be considered a “working-class social protest”: the typical demands of this movement in various towns are dictated by the most reactionary clerical conservatives (abolition of electronic IDs because they include “the Number of the Beast”; banning of vaccination; etc.) and have little to do with the interests of workers.
.
On the other hand, we are disgusted by the reaction of the right-liberal and patriotic general public which takes delight in the Odessa deaths. However wrong the killed people might have been, they shouldn’t have died in this brutish accident. As Ukrainian workers side with various warring right-wing movements, they are sliding further from socialism to barbarism. The cure is well-known: we should realize our own class interests, organize at workplaces and direct our rage against the real enemy, not at each other. In days like these global workers’ solidarity means very much. The global working class is doomed to eliminate itself: either in the process of social revolution and construction of a classless society or in the process of a barbaric all-out war.
.
No gods, no masters, no nations, no borders!

I agree that Antimaidan is not a "working class social protest" but I don't think that Maidan was either - they are both two sides of an imperialist coin and the working class has not been strong enough to impose itself on either of these forces and I don't think that that's a surprise.

I tend to agree with teh on the perspectives. Ukraine is in a state of decomposition. It's riven by imperialist forces, bankrupt and its political leadership, which includes local warlords, is weak and at each others throats. It starkly demonstrates the perspectives of socialism or barbarism, being yet another example of the spread of the latter with the potential for more disasters and chaos. US troops are still crossing Russian territory for and from Afghanistan but tensions are obviously worse between the two. Russia could well move closer to China now with whom they held large-scale military manoeuvres just before this crisis broke out.

I find the anarchist AWU statement disgusting. They blame the people who were burnt alive, suffocated or beaten to death and then give their sincere condolences.

ocelot

AWU-Kiev Statement on the Odessa Tragedy

[...]

.
On the other hand, we are disgusted by the reaction of the right-liberal and patriotic general public which takes delight in the Odessa deaths. However wrong the killed people might have been, they shouldn’t have died in this brutish accident.
..

This is what I was saying in the previous post about nationalist blocs. The Odessa 'deaths' were recorded (including live) by numerous people and witnessed by thousands in person, the people who took part bragged about it on their social media accounts, and even Ukrainian politicians with a posture of mainstream like Tymoshenko congratulated the perpetrators. Yet AWU wants to present the deaths as an "accident," which I take means that they are saying that the anti-maidan set themselves on fire- accidentally- and are themselves to blame for their deaths. This is in line with the AWU saying they provided protection to Kiev militias- which they themselves say consisted of conservative or far-right outfits- in hospitals during the government overthrow. Did they think that the new order of Svoboda occupying government buildings and squares in the capitol and being brought into an unelected government would have the same reaction in the Western oblasts, where they received 1/3 of the vote last election, or Kiev, where they got 17%, and a region like Lugansk where the Communist Party got 25% of the vote last election and Svoboda 1%? Their only reaction to anti-maidan is to call them "utterly stupid and meaningless" and "the alliance of various right-wing groups, nazis, conservatives and Stalinists" that are "push[ing] forward" the country to Civil War, and not the coalition in Kiev that is using the military for hit and run operations against the populations in Donbass and has organized a "National Guard" of oligarch militias from the West because it doesn't view the regular army as trustworthy. Which is understandable, but one can't talk about being for no nations while implicitly supporting those preserving of the territorial integrity of Ukraine against populations which don't particularly care for the central authority or even the Ukrainian state.

Just to give a sense of where Urkaine is right now, US Congress-run Radio Free Europe is publishing light humor pieces about exterminationist rhetoric by its faction:

Now, with a current crop of "koloradi" to worry about, many Ukrainians have created their own Soviet-style campaigns, producing online posters alerting viewers to the current "distribution" of Colorado beetles in Crimea, Kharkiv, and Donetsk, and depicting the bugs happily nibbling on a leafy plant and proudly defending themselves as potato "self-defense" forces.

A current insecticide ad running on Channel 5, the station owned by Ukrainian presidential candidate Petro Poroshenko, has even raised chuckles among some Ukrainians with its promise to kill Colorado beetles "on the spot" -- although in this case, the enemy in question are the actual bugs, which remain an annual threat.

Other observers seem to be taking the "koloradi" nickname in their stride. Moscow-based analyst Grigory Trofimchuk chided Russian propagandists for using heavy-handed labels like "fascists."

He urged them to try "light irony" instead, suggesting that Ukraine's Right Sector nationalists, with their red-and-black insignia, bear more than a passing resemblance to another kind of a bug -- klop-soldatki, or firebugs, which he noted mischievously, "tend toward cannibalism."

This is the English Radio Free Europe, it's Ukrainian affiliate Radio Svoboda is posting pictures of easter eggs covered in fascist flags on its twitter account.

Not just after this statement it is quite evident that the syndicalists of the AWU are in direct complicity with the "Euromaidan" movement. If you read their translated texts regarding the situation in Ukraine closely it is clear that - despite all their distanciations which are nothing but hypocritical rhetoric - they are not equidistant towards the competing "movements" (Maidan/Antimaidan), rival factions of the Ukrainian ruling class, nationalisms and imperialisms in or outside the Ukrainian territory.

Germany has now stated that the situation in eastern and southern Ukraine is heading towards war and, on the face of it, events are spinning out of control. In order to keep up the destabilisation and unnerve Kiev, Russian imperialism doesn't have to do anything but move its troops around on its side of the border. As the threat increases and destabilisation deepens it's all the more necessary to be clear about groups like the anarcho-nationalist AWU and its support for the Maidan movement, the latter being a strong factor of the imperialist push of the west. It was a toxic movement for the working class to get involved in and it's getting more dangerous.

xref:

Libcom: Darkness in May: a socialist eye-witness in Odessa

A sort of knowingly naive question, but how do groups obtain weaponry capable of shooting down military helicopters?

Germany has now stated that the situation in eastern and southern Ukraine is heading towards war and, on the face of it, events are spinning out of control. In order to keep up the destabilisation and unnerve Kiev, Russian imperialism doesn't have to do anything but move its troops around on its side of the border. As the threat increases and destabilisation deepens it's all the more necessary to be clear about groups like the anarcho-nationalist AWU and its support for the Maidan movement, the latter being a strong factor of the imperialist push of the west. It was a toxic movement for the working class to get involved in and it's getting more dangerous.

I agree on your comment except their characterisation as anarcho-nationalists. Under no circumstances their positions can be described as anarchist (or revolutionary) as they are just cryptonationalist syndicalists. As all stupid left populists this group did everything to diminish the totally reactionary and - regarding its class composition - petty bourgeois character of the Euromaidan protests, the "new" regime and the role of collective "Western" imperialism as the rival of Russian imperialism. So far these idiotic cretins did not say anything about the coming attacks on the working class in Ukraine except in very few negligible remarks.

A sort of knowingly naive question, but how do groups obtain weaponry capable of shooting down military helicopters?

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union there are enough weapons circulating in the former republics - including Ukraine (and especially Crimea). > just one example: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/24/protesters-ukraine-weapons-cache-mine

Shorty

A sort of knowingly naive question, but how do groups obtain weaponry capable of shooting down military
helicopters?

Is this an "asking for a friend" type question? ;)

Haha, no, more the external/internal flow of weaponry. It really does look like it's heading towards war.

Gah, I don't even know whom to trust anymore on these questions!

Is this a long-standing beef between AWU and Borotba, and if so, what was its source? Or did it only grow out of the current crisis?

It would be really nice to clarify what the correct working-class stance outside of Ukrainian and Russian nationalists should be, and if there is anybody in Ukraine who is currently representing that perspective.

AWU consciously refused to sign this internationalist declaration because it denounced the "new" oligarchy and the Euromaidan as well and was directed against all nationalisms involved in the conflict. Screw them!

subprole

AWU consciously refused to sign this internationalist declaration because it denounced the "new" oligarchy and the Euromaidan as well and was directed against all nationalisms involved in the conflict. Screw them!

Well, that's definitely a mark against their record.

So are their allegations of Borotba's collaboration with rightist actors ungrounded, or is it more complicated than that?

So are their allegations of Borotba's collaboration with rightist actors ungrounded, or is it more complicated than that?

Borotba seems to support the idea of a class collaborationist "anti-fascist people's front" which would include all types of nationalists. But I don't rely on any information by AWU since they have lost any credibilty in my perspective..

Translation from a German language interview with an AWU member (published on a website from an "anti-German" group) that further illustrates their delusional or at least extremely naive analysis of the situation:

The occupation of Crimea demonstrated the almost pacifist position of the Ukrainian government that does not want war even if it looses a part of its territory.

Could be a comment from the US foreign ministry..

I take your point subprole about describing the AWU as "anarcho-nationalists" it's a sloppy description. I don't know about cryptonationalist syndicalists though. From futher information that you've provided on this group I think that one might just as easily describe them as bourgeois.

Baboon, I would generalize that syndicalism and anarchism are an expression of petty bourgeois idealism. An analysis based on formal categories (tyranny, liberty, federalism, centralism, various identity groups) is consistent with bourgeois ideology. In this light, I don't understand the ICC's opening up to anarcho-syndicalists. I grant that many anarchists are not illiterate when it comes to dialectical materialism (especially the class struggle anarchists) but the ones that I have spoken with are eclectic in their approach to politics. Another word for that is opportunism. But at least they're not as bat-shit and dogmatic as other leftists (Stalinists, Maoists, Trotskyists) so there's always the hope that militants will come to the positions of left communism. After all, many (most?) people who arrive at left communism went through anarchism at some point.

Yes the reference to the AWU's non-appearance on the other widely distributed 'internationalist declaration' is telling (for those of us less familiar with them) in terms of an otherwise less obvious sympathy for Ukrainian nationalism alongside other 'on-the-face of it' internationalist statements in various other of their texts and perhaps means my earlier request for caution in relying on Barotba for political analysis of events should apply to this group as well! Though a good deal of the discussion here also reveals more about the previously unstated 'ideological' formalism and allegiances of the contributors than it does perhaps about those in the Ukraine.

http://internationalist-perspective.org/blog/2014/05/05/baiting-the-russian-bear/

Anyone who had any doubt that the mass media (from CNBC to Fox, from CNN to public television) constitutes the organ of mass manipulation of capital, needs to seriously consider the coverage of events in Ukraine. They are “All In” from Fox to the Nation. The government in Kiev (or Kyiv) — even how you pronounce or spell the name of the capital city is politicized today — is presented as a democratic redoubt vainly struggling against the Stalino-fascist and thuggish Putin regime in Moscow, determined to crush a weak democracy in a valiant Ukraine. Meanwhile, not a word about the power of the oligarchs in Kiev, who prefer Exxon to Gazprom, and NATO to the Kremlin, in a geopolitical struggle between capitalist states and blocs. Not a word about Svoboda or the Right Sector, who control the Maidan in Kiev, and who are the lineal descendants of Stefan Bandera, and the fascists who sought an alliance with Nazi Germany in June 1941, and assisted in the mass murder of Jews, and who today wrap themselves in the mantle of “democracy” and Western values (weren’t they the same values that Hitler defended as his armies swept through Ukraine in 1941, killing Jews and “communists”?), even as they demand a racially pure Ukraine? But this is not just about the deceitful role of journalists and the mass media in the West. It’s really about the fact, which “progressives” cannot accept, that nationalism in all its ideological forms today is reactionary; that in the present epoch nationalism – like democracy – is the watch-word, the clarion call, of capitalism as it seeks to generate mass support for its underlying social and production relations. And beyond Ukraine, that clarion call evokes a response on the “left” as anyone who has watched Al Sharpton or Ariana Huffington over the past several weeks can attest: a call that seconds the efforts of the Obama administration to build popular support for a tough sanctions regime, and arms for Kiev. We may not be on the brink of war, nuclear or otherwise, in Ukraine, but we are certainly seeing a significant heightening of inter-imperialist tensions, even as the left seems to be only choosing sides over who is the real aggressor.

Remember the National Bolshevik grouping in Germany?

Or the German Communist Party sympathising with the death of Nazi (and later having joint picket lines with the Brownshirts.)

Doesn't Russia have any fascists? All those attacks on immigrants and non-Russians over the years, was part of my imagination.

Neither Kiev Nor Moscow, seems the most rational position, to take.

Tragedies, accidental or deliberate atrocities, are part and parcel of wars and civil wars are the most vicious of all, according to the most seasoned of war correspondents.

While the American hypocritical attitude rightly deserves our disgust, we have not forgotten about Chechnya and the total destruction of its capital Grozny as Putin's response to breakaway states (and when it comes to conspiracy theories, those Moscow bombs blamed on Chechens to spark off another offensive has always been suspect.) Obama or Putin, their hypocrisy stinks and both are up to their arm-pits in the blood of innocents.

But how can i shed any more tears for yet another heart-breaking catastrophe, just one more on the list of countless others, that sadly the working class/socialists/anarchists are incapable of doing anything about other than what we do now...agitating at home, educating ourselves and others. Our role is not taking sides but linking its causes to capitalist rivals vying for economic spheres of influence.

How frustrating it is to be waving our fist at the TV and tearing up the newspapers we read . Propaganda lies make us angry, especially when they are so obvious and blatant, and assume we are all cretins with memories of a goldfish. But whether in London New York Moscow or Kiev...it is all lies and that means we have to try and unravel as much of the truth as we can, knowing we won't be 100% successful, even if we had our own reporters and camera teams on the scene. So we will continue to generalise as accurately as we can. Sometimes we will get certain details wrong and maybe we will be mistaken when we apportion blame particular in that cliche fog of war, in the battle of propaganda.

Rant over and out

Skim read this which looks pretty good..

Ukraine slides towards civil war: don’t choose a side in battle of reaction

Picture circulated by Russian 'anti-fascists' before May 2nd..
http://www.dreamdeferred.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/odessa-2-may-calling-600x412.jpg

dreamdeferred.org.uk

We know that the pro-Ukrainian activists involved in the horrendous clashes in Odessa on 2 May, many of them from football “ultra” firms who used a football match as a pretext for a planned battle, included Right Sector fighters – the fascist organisation is mourning the death of one of them.

But an image distributed by the Odessa Antimaidan “Southern Front” group, urging “concerned residents” to mobilise on 2 May and “defend Odessa together”, portrays masked fighters with the black, gold and white flag used by Russian fascists.

Spikymike

Yes the reference to the AWU's non-appearance on the other widely distributed 'internationalist declaration' is telling (for those of us less familiar with them) in terms of an otherwise less obvious sympathy for Ukrainian nationalism alongside other 'on-the-face of it' internationalist statements in various other of their texts and perhaps means my earlier request for caution in relying on Barotba for political analysis of events should apply to this group as well!

Mike, such caution is obviously necessary, given how little we know from this distance. However, in relation to that "internationalist statement", it would mean signing up to the judgement that:

the ["old" ologarchs] used including ultra-rightist and ultra-nationalist formations for making a state coup in Kiev.

Which, rightly or wrongly, has not been the AWU assessment of what happened in Maidan from Nov to Feb. So to sign up to that would be inconsistent.

It is, however, pretty much the official Russian line on what happened, it should be said.

edit: also, for the record, no Anarkismo affiliated groups were approached to add their names to the statement prior to its publication. Given the relations between AIT and Anarkismo affliated groups, this is not particularly remarkable in itself (neither do Anarkismo groups routinely ask AIT groups to sign their international statements), but the categorisation of the statement as "widely circulated" should not be taken as meaning that all class struggle anarchist or left communist groups were asked to sign, by any means.

"edit: also, for the record, no Anarkismo affiliated groups were approached to add their names to the statement prior to its publication. Given the relations between AIT and Anarkismo affliated groups, this is not particularly remarkable in itself (neither do Anarkismo groups routinely ask AIT groups to sign their international statements), but the categorisation of the statement as "widely circulated" should not be taken as meaning that all class struggle anarchist or left communist groups were asked to sign, by any means."
Perhaps one should ask, why not?

Esty

I grant that many anarchists are not illiterate when it comes to dialectical materialism

Always deeply reassuring.

ajjohnstone

Doesn't Russia have any fascists? All those attacks on immigrants and non-Russians over the years, was part of my imagination.

Russian fascists are not occupying Red Square and government buildings in the capitol and are not holding ministerial positions in an unelected government nor are used by it as paramilitary forces. In that sense Russian fascism fits the world norm.

While the American hypocritical attitude rightly deserves our disgust, we have not forgotten about Chechnya and the total destruction of its capital Grozny as Putin's response to breakaway states (and when it comes to conspiracy theories, those Moscow bombs blamed on Chechens to spark off another offensive has always been suspect.) Obama or Putin, their hypocrisy stinks and both are up to their arm-pits in the blood of innocents.

Yeltsin was the perpetrator in Chechnya as well as the main instigator of the conflict. Putin played the secondary and clean up role. I know you're speaking in jest but this gets repeated a lot by right and left liberals who view Yelstins oligarch rule and Western clientelism as a model not only for their own societies but for countries around the world. They shouldn't be allowed to attempt to rehabilitate him.

I make no reference or defence of Yelstin but no way should anybody try to diminish Putin's contribution and role to the suppression of Chechnya.

Might as well say Obama's and Cameron's complicity in war are merely secondary and clean up as they did not instigate either Afghan, Iraq or the so-called War on Terror. I stand by my statement that Putin's position is hypocritical and his history blood-stained.

I was perhaps a bit rash to employ the words fascist. After all there is a more or agreed definition to the term...extremist nationalist may be a better choice and THEY do occupy the Kremlin and the positions of government power in Russia.

Kiev or Moscow - A plague on both

This mounting civil war in the Ukraine has its roots within capitalism like every other conflict in recent times. Should slaves take sides in the disputes of their masters? This conflict/war is not unique. Yugoslavia? We don't need to defend Serbian nationalism and their breakaway republic of Srpska or recall the Nazi Croatian Chekniks to condemn the bombardment of Sarajevo or the bombing of Belgrade and see what the war was about...economic/military expansion.

As i said we seen too much of the same and until the world changes we will see more of the same. Stop picking sides to support.

I put my text up separately:

http://libcom.org/news/anarchism-context-civil-war-08052014

BTW after I had my text translated, it was revealed that in Donetsk RKAS is involved in Anti-Maidan:

http://avtonom.org/news/anarhist-iz-donecka-zayavlyat-o-sebe-v-antimaydanovskom-dvizhenii-kak-politicheskaya-sila-my-ne

Oh dear.

ajjohnstone

I make no reference or defence of Yelstin but no way should anybody try to diminish Putin's contribution and role to the suppression of Chechnya.

Might as well say Obama's and Cameron's complicity in war are merely secondary and clean up as they did not instigate either Afghan, Iraq or the so-called War on Terror. I stand by my statement that Putin's position is hypocritical and his history blood-stained.

Well I wouldn't put the destruction of Iraq as the "response" of Obama to opposition to imperial rule- that I'd say was Clinton & his machine and Bush father and son- though Obama certainly did and is doing his best to subjugate Iraq. Putin's position is hypocritical and his history blood-stained but I believe there is a concerted effort to whitewash Yeltsin's legacy, including on Chechnya.

I was perhaps a bit rash to employ the words fascist. After all there is a more or agreed definition to the term...extremist nationalist may be a better choice and THEY do occupy the Kremlin and the positions of government power in Russia.

Name me the persons or groups. I think Svoboda and its offshoots fit the classic Neo-Nazi platform.

This mounting civil war in the Ukraine has its roots within capitalism like every other conflict in recent times. Should slaves take sides in the disputes of their masters? This conflict/war is not unique. Yugoslavia? We don't need to defend Serbian nationalism and their breakaway republic of Srpska or recall the Nazi Croatian Chekniks to condemn the bombardment of Sarajevo or the bombing of Belgrade and see what the war was about...economic/military expansion.

As i said we seen too much of the same and until the world changes we will see more of the same. Stop picking sides to support.

No no I completely agree.

S2W

BTW after I had my text translated, it was revealed that in Donetsk RKAS is involved in Anti-Maidan:

http://avtonom.org/news/anarhist-iz-donecka-zayavlyat-o-sebe-v-antimaydanovskom-dvizhenii-kak-politicheskaya-sila-my-ne

Oh dear.

I don't think I've ever read anything on Avtonom which didn't have an activistoid solution to a given problem.

RKAS's website seems to have been hijacked by the Mens Internet Magazine http://rkas.org.ua/
which talks about what is the attractiveness of the EU.

I read this article by well-published James Petras due to its title "The Kiev Putsch: Rebel Workers Take Power in the East". I was hoping against hope.

What do i find? The vast part of the essay is devoted to the NATO/EU expansionism, much of which i cannot disagree with. What was missing in the article was any substantial description of those rebel workers or their organisations.

"The industrial workers of Ukraine who succeed in throwing off the yoke of the western vassals in Kiev have no intention of submitting themselves to the yoke of the Russian oligarchs. Their struggle is for a democratic state, capable of developing an independent economic policy, free of imperial military alliances."

That was all to justify the title.

But details of new organisations with these demands or evidence for such a belief from trade unions seem to be lacking. True, the media and lack of translations could be the reason. Yet the same article reaffirms their chains to Russia and not any such economic independence. Do we read about worker occupations, the rise of the council movement...

"The loss of Russian trade is already leading to mass unemployment, especially among skilled industrial workers in the East who may be forced to immigrate to Russia."

There is no demand in his article for the demilitarisation of the Black Sea reports to substantiate "free of imperial military alliances." The status quo is accepted.

Throughout Russian history, statists have tended to hold a view of nationalism as an instrument to strengthen state institutions and bolster the authority of the ruling class. As such, statists have traditionally favoured territorial expansion, followed by efforts to assimilate minority groups. Putin may not endorse "Russia for the Russians" slogans of the extreme nationalists but his patriotism means Moscow rules.

oops forgot the Petras link
http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/05/the-kiev-putsch-rebel-workers-take-power-in-the-east/

moderator, please remove post 188. I admit it was an underhanded attempt to score political points and I apologize. Also delete this post, please

@Esty - you can edit your own posts retrospectively. If, on reflection, you want to retract one of your posts, the generally accepted etiquette is to edit it and delete the original text, replacing it with a note to the effect that you have decided to remove it (and, optionally, one or two words why).

Esty, I was mystified by the post you want disappeared and your attack mentioning myself. In the interests of clarity, while not taking up too much time in an important discussion, could you elaborate on why you want this post retracted?

I've been seeing this spread on social media, I haven't had a chance to read it and I'm not sure what the exact political position of the website is but ...

http://www.dreamdeferred.org.uk/2014/05/ukraine-slides-towards-civil-war-there-is-no-good-side-to-choose/

Repost from here

AWU addressed the Confederal Group of the European United Left/Nordic Green Left faction in the European Parliament with this open letter in which they are basically begging for political support from inside the European Parliament: http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/18/open-letter-european-left/

What else?
http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/30/the-politicians-obey-crowd-interview-protests-kiev/

I guess in such conditions the best form of support from abroad would be efforts to make the Ukrainian government back off, but without showing solidarity with the far-right. My guess is that such messages – “we support your struggle but not your fascists” – would be optimal form of pressure from abroad.

Not just here they are demonstrating their collaborative position towards the (liberal) elements of the - in its general tendency - populist and nationalist Euromaidan movement. This passage shows they were hoping for a new government constructing a (supposedly) more "democratic" mechanism managing Ukrainian oligarchic capitalism. Explain: why should proletarians in Ukraine or elsewhere force a government to resign in exchange for some parasitic scum like Yatsenyuk or Tymoshenko?

Further proof of the "pacifist position of the Ukrainian government that does not want war" (AWU)

Ukraine deploys 15,000-strong military force near Russia’s borders

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/730878

subprole

Repost from here

AWU addressed the Confederal Group of the European United Left/Nordic Green Left faction in the European Parliament with this open letter in which they are basically begging for political support from inside the European Parliament: http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/18/open-letter-european-left/

What else?
http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/30/the-politicians-obey-crowd-interview-protests-kiev/

I guess in such conditions the best form of support from abroad would be efforts to make the Ukrainian government back off, but without showing solidarity with the far-right. My guess is that such messages – “we support your struggle but not your fascists” – would be optimal form of pressure from abroad.

Not just here they are demonstrating their collaborative position towards the (liberal) elements of the - in its general tendency - populist and nationalist Euromaidan movement. This passage shows they were hoping for a new government constructing a (supposedly) more "democratic" mechanism managing Ukrainian oligarchic capitalism. Explain: why should proletarians in Ukraine or elsewhere force a government to resign in exchange for some parasitic scum like Yatsenyuk or Tymoshenko?

Any reading of the two articles you link will reveal that they totally do not say what you allege they say.

Irrespective of your motives, you are being completely dishonest here, and people should take heed of that.

The passages I quote imply what I say. There are definitely serious contradictions in their pamphlets and you should take heed of that. Besides there is absolutely no argument in your comment, it is just your irrelevant opinion.

I don't waste my time arguing with people who are being transparently dishonest. I trust the readers of this site well enough to read the articles you link and judge for themselves.

An instrumental approach to the truth is fundamentally incompatible with basic anarchist principles.

This "debate" is getting surreal! But I also have absolutely no interest in any further communication with you.

Shorty,
You should really read texts you link beforehand but as it happens the specific 'dreamdeferred' article you refer to is pretty good and well worth people here reading.

teh

I don't think I've ever read anything on Avtonom which didn't have an activistoid solution to a given problem.

Definitely, as in our times any kind of intervention is deemed "activistoid", and even groups like KRAS have adopted neo-council communist approach of revolutionary refusal from any kind of activity besides internet proclamations.

S2W

teh

I don't think I've ever read anything on Avtonom which didn't have an activistoid solution to a given problem.

Definitely, as in our times any kind of intervention is deemed "activistoid", and even groups like KRAS have adopted neo-council communist approach of revolutionary refusal from any kind of activity besides internet proclamations.

I don't see how class collaboration and appeals to democracy can lead to anything other than the worst forms of oligarchy. The power of workers is at their jobs (and when they cooperate across workplaces), not on the street.

S2W

BTW after I had my text translated, it was revealed that in Donetsk RKAS is involved in Anti-Maidan:

http://avtonom.org/news/anarhist-iz-donecka-zayavlyat-o-sebe-v-antimaydanovskom-dvizhenii-kak-politicheskaya-sila-my-ne

Oh dear.

could someone post a translation of that to libcom, if it's worthwhile?

subprole

The passages I quote imply what I say. There are definitely serious contradictions in their pamphlets and you should take heed of that. Besides there is absolutely no argument in your comment, it is just your irrelevant opinion.

as ocelot points out, those passages do not imply anything like what you say. So either you are outright lying, or you have simply been unable to comprehend the text you have read. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I will assume the latter for now…

On an admin note, you shouldn't have posted the same thing into separate discussions. I will respond to your comment where you posted it initially shortly. Please don't continue discussion of this point on here as well.

Spikymike

Shorty,
You should really read texts you link beforehand but as it happens the specific 'dreamdeferred' article you refer to is pretty good and well worth people here reading.

that article is pretty good. Unfortunately the website it is on is run by the author, Tash, and Martin Smith, the SWP rapist.

I don't know about the particular quotes from subprole but think that there's more than enough evidence above - if it was needed after their initial statements - that the AWU is a bunch of Ukrainian nationalists supporting one side in an imperialist flare-up.

I will respond to your comment where you posted it initially shortly. Please don't continue discussion of this point on here as well.

I have no intention of discussing with you either, so don't worry.

There was the "victory" parade in Russia of course as the military celebrated some sort of re-found Russian assertion and we had the Crimean strut from Putin. But genrally, from reports that I've seen anyway, there doesn't seem much appetite for war among the general Russian population and if anything, there were some anti-war demonstrations a few weeks ago which were small and quickly broken up by the police. At the moment there seems little appetite among ordinary Russians for an invasion of Eastern Ukraine.

But as Newsnight pointed out last night that situation could change very quickly if attacks continue on civilisans in Russian-speaking areas. In this case great pressure could mount for Russian "intervention".

There's no doubt that under US direction Kiev has mounted a military offensive even if its been somewhat shambolic on occasions. Ukrainian fighter-bombers have been screamiing low over the south-east for weeks now reminiscent of Israeli terror tactics. Civilian have been killed in the south-east and previously peaceful areas have erupted due to the "anti-terrorist" action - an action that can only produce its own atrocities.

For months these expressions of imperialist pushes and manoeuvres on both sides are now threatening to get out of control and take on a further imperialist dynamic involving a more intense military confrontation that obviously involves wider and more dangerous consequences.

It is absolutely essential that from a working class point of view that all the imperialist factions involved in this further descent into militarism and war are clearly denounced - without any ambiguity - especially the two major imperialisms.

teh

I don't see how class collaboration and appeals to democracy can lead to anything other than the worst forms of oligarchy. The power of workers is at their jobs (and when they cooperate across workplaces), not on the street.

I do not remember a single revolution which would have succeeded without taking over the streets, ever.

Passivistoid neo-council communism makes sense only as long as you ignore any empiria alltogether.

S2W

BTW after I had my text translated, it was revealed that in Donetsk RKAS is involved in Anti-Maidan:

http://avtonom.org/news/anarhist-iz-donecka-zayavlyat-o-sebe-v-antimaydanovskom-dvizhenii-kak-politicheskaya-sila-my-ne

Oh dear.

Have to take this back, apparenlty it is just certain members of RKAS but no basis to say that it is position of the organisation or its local group as a whole.

S2W

teh

I don't see how class collaboration and appeals to democracy can lead to anything other than the worst forms of oligarchy. The power of workers is at their jobs (and when they cooperate across workplaces), not on the street.

I do not remember a single revolution which would have succeeded without taking over the streets, ever.

Passivistoid neo-council communism makes sense only as long as you ignore any empiria alltogether.

There has been no single successful socialist revolution in history. There is your mistake, you're fighting for a bourgeois revolution in the 21st century when this class is incapable of any positive reorganization of society (usually even in the short term, much less the medium and long term). Building workers soviets is not a passive affair. It requires networking and delegating across industry and education in the knowledge hoarded by management all with the purpose to expropriate the economy. I don't know how many times people have to storm the Bastille until they realize its a waste of time.

As for AWU, I wouldn't call them Ukrainian nationalists but there's something about them that just doesn't feel right. For them the main enemy seems to be Russian imperialism, they don't talk much about USA, EU or their new government in all of their texts translated into English. In their statement on the annexation of Crimea they urged "proletarians of all lands" to stand against "criminal regime of Putin". But why only him? What's next, another "Proletarian Military Policy" if shit gets real?

As for AWU, I wouldn't call them Ukrainian nationalists but there's something about them that just doesn't feel right.

Probably you are right. They do not have to be denounced as Ukranian nationalists or crypto nationalists if one is just confronted with some left liberal cretins decorating their publications with some class struggle rhetoric.

To the members of GUE/NGL faction in the European Parliament,
Gabriele Zimmer

Dear comrades.,

We, the members of leftist, trade union and human rights organizations in Ukraine, [...] Autonomous Workers Union – Kyiv,

18/01/2014

And:

But why only him?

Because the Kiev regime is not criminal. It is a democratic regime and not a brutal dictatorship like in Russia....

Steven.

that article is pretty good. Unfortunately the website it is on is run by the author, Tash, and Martin Smith, the SWP rapist.

Oof! Well good to know for future reference.

Yeah, I should have read it before but from the context of those who were sharing it, it seemed okay.

Der Spiegal reports that the German intelligence service, BND, reported to Chancellor Merkel and the German government on April 29 that 400 Blackwater (now Academi/Greystoke) were active in easstern Ukraine including Slavyansk. They are involved in the Right Sector Militia, the Ukrainian National Guard and groups of football thugs. It is inconceivable that they are acting alone without the support of the CIA. There is no apparant mention of this at all in the British and American media, including Blackwater's officially stated denial that it is involved.

http://avtonomia.net/2014/05/14/regime-kyiv-junta-east-awu-kyiv-statement-conflict-eastern-regions/ Very good statement.

From the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?ref=europe&_r=0

It doesn't hurt to see the pro-Russian nationalists get a little pushback, but this episode unfortunately demonstrates further how class identity continues to be confounded and obfuscated in the midst of a nationalist crisis:

The workers who took to the streets on Thursday were among the hundreds of thousands in the east who are employed in metals and mining by Ukraine’s richest man, Rinat Akhmetov, who only recently went beyond paying lip service to Ukrainian unity and on Wednesday issued a statement rejecting separatism.

Critics say Mr. Akhmetov could have prevented much of the bloodshed in the east if he had taken a strong stance sooner. But his lieutenants say he decided to confront the separatists out of a deep belief that independence, or even quasi-autonomy, would be disastrous for eastern Ukraine. Mr. Akhmetov urged his employees, whose jobs were at risk, to take over the city.

Metinvest and DTEK, the metals and mining subsidiaries of Mr. Akhmetov’s company, System Capital Management, together employ 280,000 people in eastern Ukraine, forming an important and possibly decisive force in the region. They have a history of political activism stretching back to miner strikes that helped bring down the Soviet Union. In this conflict, they had not previously signaled their allegiance to one side or the other.

The chief executive of Ilyich Steel Works, Yuri Zinchenko, is leading the steelworker patrols in the city. He said the company had remained on the sidelines as long as possible, while tacitly supporting unity with Ukraine by conveying to workers that a separatist victory would close export markets in Europe, devastating the factory and the town.

Though the workers had differing views of the new government in Kiev, the Ukrainian capital, on the whole they supported the patrols to restore order, employees and managers said. “Everybody can have their own opinion, but not at work,” Sergei Istratov, a shift boss at the factory, said. “At work, you have to do what the factory demands.”

What do people make of this? Is it the nucleus of genuine workers' self-organization, merely dressed up in the self-serving rhetoric of its instigators, or is it no more than the rallying of workers to one side of the nationalist struggle by appeal to economistic concerns?

RebelRising

From the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?ref=europe&_r=0

Ukranian newspaper Korrespondent implies this is a fabrication here and here (poor Google translate). The local authorities and capitalists signed an agreement with separatists to jointly clean up the barricades (as the city is completely under separatist control) and patrol the city. NYT isn't a credible source on much of anything.

RebelRising

Critics say Mr. Akhmetov could have prevented much of the bloodshed in the east if he had taken a strong stance sooner. But his lieutenants say he decided to confront the separatists out of a deep belief that independence, or even quasi-autonomy, would be disastrous for eastern Ukraine. Mr. Akhmetov urged his employees, whose jobs were at risk, to take over the city.

Taking into account the broader coverage of the crisis the first sentence here is racist. Like people give a shit what this thief thinks. Fits the press's whole narrative of people there being simpletons who value "factory discipline" (The New Republic site). They "helped bring down the Soviet Union" to be ruled by their natural leader.

Metinvest and DTEK, the metals and mining subsidiaries of Mr. Akhmetov’s company, System Capital Management, together employ 280,000 people in eastern Ukraine, forming an important and possibly decisive force in the region. They have a history of political activism stretching back to miner strikes that helped bring down the Soviet Union. In this conflict, they had not previously signaled their allegiance to one side or the other.

Or by helped bring down the Soviet Union is the NYT referring to "System Capital Management"? The neutrality of his employees seems contradicted by reports of his factories being occupied by separatist employees

What the cretins at the NYT don't emphasize is that Akhmetov is openly advocating the position of the Russian government. Federalization so that local elite run their turf and NATO capital can't colonize the country.

FT (paywalled): Billionaire Rinat Akhmetov seeks more power for Ukraine regions

Rinat Akhmetov, Ukraine’s richest man, has called for changes to the country’s constitution to give much more power to its regions.
.
It was the multibillionaire’s most forceful intervention in a crisis that threatens to tear Ukraine apart.
.
Mr Akhmetov, who sits atop an industrial empire of coal mines, steel works and power stations, rejected attempts by separatists in the eastern part of Ukraine, known as Donbass, to break away and either become independent entities or join Russia. “I strongly believe that Donbass can be happy only in [a] united Ukraine,” he said.
.
His comments, made in a televised address, were his most detailed yet on the conflict gripping eastern Ukraine and suggest that the country’s elite could be inching towards a settlement that could de-escalate the crisis.
.
They came just hours after Sergei Naryshkin, the Speaker of the Duma, the lower house of the Russian parliament, backed the idea of holding presidential elections in Ukraine on May 25 – an idea the rebels in the east reject.
[...]
Mr Akhmetov said Ukraine faced four options: the first would leave everything as it is, with Kiev in charge – a model he said had “run out of steam and is not right for the future”.
.
The second was for Donetsk to become independent, which he also rejected. “Nobody in the world will recognise it,” he said, adding that the region, one of the most heavily industrialised in Ukraine, would be slapped with huge sanctions and “will not be able to sell or produce”.
.
A similar fate would await the region if it was annexed by Russia, he said.
.
Under the fourth scenario – which he described as “the only right way, in my view” – Ukraine would amend its constitution and decentralise its government. Regional governments would, according to this model, be elected and not appointed, and local authorities would be “responsible to the people for the present and future”.
.
His call comes at a time when much of Ukraine’s political elite is coming around to the idea that decentralisation could help end the country’s political crisis. Ministers are already in the process of drawing up proposals to increase the power of the regions.

Agree with teh that the current Russian strategy looks to be an attempt to put the separatist genie back in the bottle and cut a deal for a federalist constitution (with federal regions having a veto on things like NATO membership, a primary aim) in return for allowing presidential elections to go ahead. Russia don't want NATO on their SW border, but they don't particularly want a messy civil war there, either.

Of course whether they can actually get the genie back in the bottle, is another question altogether.

"Very good statement" from the AWU says anarchistsolidarity above. It's certainly more careful to avoid explicitly supporting nationalism and imperialism under slogans about the working class but it's essence is still the same. Both sides in the conflict are denounced by the AWU, Kiev for the "incompetence" of its troops (blame the poor, bloody soldiers) and the Russian-supporting fighters of the south-east for their "depravity". Typical imperialist crap - demonise the enemy and it makes it easier to mobilise and fight it.

The AWU makes out that the Kiev "Right Sector" is some sort of ephemeral entity that is "in a state of undercover war against Kiev". There are certainly tensions between different elements of the Ukrainian bourgeoisie, just as there are elsewhere. But it looks to me that the Right Sector is an integral part of the Kiev regime in general and its Interior MInistry in particular. According to Wedenesday's Guardian, the former boss of the Maiden fighting wing, Andrly Parubly, "is now at the heart of Kiev's attempts to counter the rebellion of the east." He is now the boss of Ukraines security forces. The Guardian continues, "Parubly is spearheading atempts to co-opt Maidan activists (into) fighting alongside police, the army and special forces in the east" (including, as we've seen from German intelligence, US forces).. This strategy is risky as the Guaardian suggests: "Some volunteer groups under the official jurisdiction of the Interior Ministry have been accused of leading the deadly violence in Mariupol and Krasnoarmeisk last week that helped to push local people into the arms of the rebels".

An analysis from communisation perspective:

Notes on the “Fascist” state of Ukraine and many more

Ukraine does not need an anti-fascist critique but an anticapitalist one:The Ukrainian example shows how vile and barbaric forms can take the bourgeois democracy in order to protect the capital relation,it shows that democracy is no stranger to nationalism or fascism, it shows that democracy is nothing other but the physical capital community and that has no value in itself.

The Ukrainian state is attacking and treats the eastern provinces in the most brutal way, while inside the west and center of Ukraine is prevailing bourgeois normality(more or less…). Why is that? Why also the Ukrainian state characterizes the eastern provinces as “terrorists” (sic)? The question must be answered as to bourgeois democracy as the natural political form of state of bourgeois society. Fascism and the loss of democracy come as a historically reply of Capital to a strong working class within one bourgeois csociety, which tends to break or spoil the plans of capital accumulation.In Ukraine we do not have something like that. On the other hand, the eastern Ukraine does not belong to the same bourgeois society(this was and the main contradiction of the Ukrainian state) with the rest of the country-the west- and for this the reason, why as to this “western” government, eastern Ukraine is something else, an externality that must be dealt with. This can be done within a democratic form (with frontline fascist security forces, where else can you find such good killers….) as well as Kiev and the separatists not consider themselves part or component of this one bourgeois society but of another (Russian) and they even raise the flag, they ask for a referendum etc. Thus we see Kiev treats those who resist in the east, as elsewhere are treated the marginalized (those who no longer participating in bourgeois social roles but live in their margin as externalities of circulation of value), the insurgents immigrants or the “foreigners invaders “, the treatment is completely hostile. The democratic state has the “obligation” (although this form of state now it is in crisis in the context of financial capitalism) to be consistent in its own bourgeois society, not the externalities of its. The term “counter-terrorism operations” used by Kiev is quite enlightening to see how the movement of antiMaidan is viewed by the West.

Michael Hudson: The New Cold War’s Ukraine Gambit

My guess is that, like many others (e.g. John Pilger, Seamus Milne etc..), the 'old left' is exaggerating the US's influence in the Ukraine.

Of course the US would love to be manipulating everything there, but they're are many other very powerful forces in the Ukraine. For more 'balanced' accounts see these articles:

GABRIEL LEVY: http://europe.redpepper.org.uk/why-youre-wrong-about-ukraine/ and:
http://peopleandnature.wordpress.com/2014/05/11/to-citizens-of-ukraine-and-the-world-no-war-in-ukraine/#comments

IMMANUEL WALLERSTEIN: http://www.binghamton.edu/fbc/commentaries/archive-2014/377en.htm

HILLEL TICKTIN: http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/1010/failed-transition-and-crisis

[...] the 'old left' is exaggerating the US's influence in the Ukraine.

...says the guy who registered two hours ago.

Loren Goldner:

The phony made-in-USA orange, etc. ‘revolutions' in Ukraine, Georgia and Serbia were part of the same strategy. The US embassy in Kiev, after all, has 700 employees, and they're not all anthropologists studying Ukrainian folklore.

The Michael Hudson text referred to above is certainly worth a read, and some guesswork aside, does a reasonable job of exposing the US/EU strategy in relation to the ex-Soviet client states but I can't help feeling it ends up politically advancing the cause of the Russian state as the lesser and weaker imperialism. Perhaps worth reading together with the short Hillel Tickten article which seems to make some valid observations without our having to agree with his particular classification of the old Soviet Union or other of his 'neo-trotskyist' ? analysis. Will get round to the Loren Goldner piece later.

The 3rd Way?? Perhaps as another blog-post from the website seems to suggest - NEITHER KIEV NOR MOSCOW but perhaps a trip to this protest might clarify their position:-

SOLIDARITY WITH UKRAINIAN MINERS
FRIDAY 23 MAY, 4:30 pm
EVRAZ PLC,
6 ST. ANDREW STREET
LONDON
EC4A 3AE
(TUBE: CHANCERY LANE)

The miners of Kryviy Rih, members of the Independent Union of Miners of Ukraine, are appealing for solidarity to the workers of Europe. Whilst attention has been focused on the conflict in Ukraine the social-economic crisis is being overlooked.

· Workers real wages have fallen by up to 50% as the cost of living has risen,
· Miners have received only 15% of their actual pay rates,
· A promised pay rise for miners of 20% turned into a £25 hand-out,

The mining company EVRAZ they work for is based in London. It is owned by the Russian Oligarch Abramov, he is worth $7.5 billion. These oligarchs who helped cause the crisis in Ukraine, pay slave wages whilst making vast profits. They pay almost no tax, putting their wealth abroad in the City of London.

The Miners of Kryviy Rih are fighting back and are setting an example to all workers in Ukraine. The miners defence brigades have ensured peace and workers unity in Kryviy Rih and prevented any violence.

The miners are organising strike action to demand their wages are doubled and are calling for help to win their demands. Ukrainian Socialist Solidarity is a campaign set up by socialists and trade unionists in England.

Show your support for the mineworkers of Ukraine. Come to the emergency demo, bring union banners and flags.
Send messages of solidarity to the Kryviy Rih miners at: [email protected]

VIA

http://republicancommunist.org/blog/2014/05/18/miners-of-kryviy-rih-show-the-way-forward-in-ukraine/

On further investigation i note that the Ukrainian Socialist Solidarity is another usual suspect front of the SP/SWP/WL and some of the rest of the Trot left.

ajjohnstone

On further investigation i note that the Ukrainian Socialist Solidarity is another usual suspect front of the SP/SWP/WL and some of the rest of the Trot left.

Wasn't it the Ukrainian left who ran a scam a few years back pretending to sign up to every 'international' going as the local section?

Devrim

From the worst type of social democrats...

Appeal of the Kryviy Rih Basin miners to the workers of Europe

[...]

As a result we have no option but to demand an immediate doubling of the real wage in the interests of preserving social peace in this country.

[...]

At the same time we are demanding that the authorities officially recognise the miners’ self defense and the arming of miners’ brigades. Organised workers and workers’ self defense are precisely that stabilising factor which can effectively prevent the escalation of violence in Ukraine. In those places where organised workers are controlling the situation mass actions never turn into mass killings. The workers defended the Maidan in kryviy Rih. The workers did not allow any violence when they took under their control the situation in the city of Krasnodon during the recent general strike there.

[...]

http://observerukraine.net/2014/05/12/appeal-of-the-kryviy-rih-basin-miners-to-the-workers-of-europe/

I don't think that identifying Russia as the weaker imperialism and describing a Ukrainian-based US assault against Russian interests means that one supports Russia at all. Both are facts. I think that earlier in the year a diplomatic and foreign policy initiative (imperialism) by the Russian state precipitated this particular crisis and provoked the western response. The postion of the AWU, for example, is to totally deny the US offensive while denying the specific role of Ukrainian imperialism (as weak as it is) within it.

Things have changed of course since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War. But imperialism hasn't - or only in appearances as in the New Great Game. NATO was ending the 1980's with a strategy of "Forward Defence" - its aim was the complete encirclement of Russia, the placement of missiles and the deployment of troops in sensitive areas and the use of fighter jets and bomber sorties right up and occasionally across its borders. Essentially I think a similar strategy from NATO is at work in Ukraine and other local states today.

Anyone can say "Neither Kiev or Moscow"; the AWU, the Ukrainian Socialist Solidarity. The SWP had on its masthead the slogan: "Neither Washington nor Moscow" which, more accurately should have been "Either Washington or Moscow" because they always, sometimes "critically", came down in support one or the imperialist blocs in moments of tension or war.

There was an official on TV last night, I think he was talking on behalf of the EU, saying that 3 questions needed to be answered about the tragedy in Odessa. From memory they were: how did the people get into the building? What were they doing there? Why didn't the police stop them? Notice the missing question? That's the sort of shit news we're getting on mainstream British TV. One day after the snipers shot and killed several people in Kiev, a whole team of British agents were at work on the streets measuring trajectories, determining distances and finding out where the shots were fired from.

New AWU statement- spot on as usual (althoutgh of course I am waiting for intevitable accusations of "supporting ukrainian nationalism" etc.) http://avtonomia.net/2014/05/14/regime-kyiv-junta-east-awu-kyiv-statement-conflict-eastern-regions/

As a parrot of AWU "anarchistsolidarity" should have noticed that he already posted this text here 5 days ago and there has been a reply: http://libcom.org/forums/news/protests-ukraine-02122013?page=7#comment-538280

Followed sub-prole's link and found all sort of confused ideas there. I once mentioned on the thread the German experience of the National Bolsheviks ...i didn't expect to read about the National Communists :-(

http://observerukraine.net/2014/05/19/behind-the-lines-ukrainian-leftists-in-the-donbas/

We are national communists because we are at one and the same time left nationalists and anti-authoritarian communists.
We are nationalists because the main value for us is the nation, because we are fighting for the national liberation of the peoples of the world from imperialism and globalisation.
We are communists because our social and political ideal is communism – the classless and stateless society of free people.
At the same time we oppose chauvinist and bourgeois pseudo-nationalist theories, and we don’t lean towards the Soviet practice of building a state capitalist empire under the flag of communist ideas.
We are convinced that only in a free communist society can we gain independence for the Ukrainian nation and for other nations. We believe that only in a sovereign Ukrainian republic will we be able to consolidate the gains of the Social Revolution.

I also see why some left nationalists in Scotland would be sympathetic to that contradictory rhetoric.

And the naivity in this interview was astounding

How should socialists and communists in the West respond to Ukraine, how can we support Ukrainian workers?
There are many ways. Assistance in training for street fighting, and with funds…. And the readiness of the left in Europe to rise up for socialism in their own countries.

And not only that , but one of the actual instigators of the spam was brought to the UK to address a meeting in Parliament.

Monday 10th March 6pm, Committee Room 6 House of Commons A discussion on the unfolding crises in Ukraine, with expert eye-witness reports from Mr Zakhar Popovych of the left opposition and Volodymr Ischenko of the Commons Journal of Social Criticism

Zakhar Popovych was one of the key figures of the notorious scandal around the Ukrainian branch of the CWI "Workers Resistance" in 2003.

John McDonnell, the Labour MP who sponsored the Ukraine meeting in the House of Commons, was alerted about this Popovitch character but i'm not sure what happened in the end

Followed sub-prole's link and found all sort of confused ideas there. [...] ...i didn't expect to read about the National Communists

Just to clarify one thing: this is a pro-Maidan website and these "national communists" also fully support the nationalist Maidan movement as they openly said themselves in this interview.

Anarchistsolidarity can keep posting the same "spot-on" text from the AWU but it won't get any better. In the link provided by subprole in post 247, we've already shown, contrary to the AWU, that the Right Sector is no ephemeral force, a factor among many. The head of Ukraine's National Security and Defence Council, Andriy Parubiy (former commander of the Maidan protest fighting wing), was the founder of the neo-fascist Social National Party of Ukraine with the leader of the far-right Svoboda, Oleh Tyahnybok in the early 1990's. This is not an ephemeral individual but the boss of Ukraine's security forces and he could only be such with the approval of the US. It's chaotic and there are all sorts of warlords involved (I believe that the political set up in Kiev is somewhat akin to a second-rate African republic), but Parubiy and his interior ministry is recruitiing and sending fighting forces from Kiev to the east: "Parubiy is spearheading attempts to co-opt Maidan volunteers to ... fight in the east" (Guardian, May 14). In one incident a week ago, a volunteer battalion arrived and opened fire on an unarmed crowd in Krasnoarmeisk killing two civilians (Guardian, May 16). The article further describes a senior military official from Kiev as describing civilians as "pigs" and dismisses their casualties. This sort of language is similar to that used by the AWU with its description of "depravity" in the east.

In the meantime the UN has complained to the Kiev regime about its use of UN marked helicopter gunships in sorties in the east. At least 3 Mi-24 strike helicopters have been used as well as one Mi-8. The Russian journalists who took the pictures and broke the story have been arrested by the Kiev authorities for "aiding terrorist groups". Over a week ago the New York Times was reporting that the Ukrainian army had used heavy machine guns, 120mm mortars and tanks against towns in the east.

.The Guardian above (16th) also reports a senior element in the Kiev state as moaning about the uselessness of regular Ukrainian troops saying that they only joined the army "to get a flat". This sort of criticism, of troops not wanting to fight, is clearly echoed by the AWU in its description of the Ukrainian army as "incompetent" (see above). A "spot-on " observation that shows the AWU support for an efficient Ukrainian military machine.

Press TV - the Iranian BBC - reports today that attacks have intensified on Slavyansk and Kramatorsk, with fighter jets buzzing the towns all night.

baboon

This sort of criticism, of troops not wanting to fight, is clearly echoed by the AWU in its description of the Ukrainian army as "incompetent" (see above). A "spot-on " observation that shows the AWU support for an efficient Ukrainian military machine.

By what logic do you deduce that?

If you say something is "incompetent" it means you support the institution, but want it to be better? Because I have previously described the Labour Party as incompetent, so by your logic does that mean I want the Labour Party to be an "efficient machine"?

The context in the text was "Army incompetence on one side and the combatant's depravity on the other add to the losses". The "combatants" of course end up being a majority of civilians, some of who have already been killed, along with some Ukrainian forces, and now many in the south east are living in fear from the "anti-terrorist operation". . I don't think it tenuous to link this idea of the "combatants" to the AWU's somewhat abrupt dismissal of the Odessa murders in which ordinary people were killed.

But that's a minor point I think.

Just a thought or two on the question of the "competence" of the Ukrainian army. It clearly doesn't want to fight for the "cause" in any great way. This factor, without overestimating it, can only be a "good thing" in that this unwillingness to be mobilised in numbers has so far kept the death toll down and the slaughter from spreading. It was evident in the early days of the Crimean annexation that ordinary Ukrainian soldiers did not want to fight.I would think that there was a number of desertions. There's a move in Kiev to bring conscription back but in the meantime the US is backing the Kiev security ministry for its actions in the east.

Terrorists of DPR decide to take away Akhmetov’s factories
_

Google translate of Russian tabloid with statement:

We further can not and do not intend to restrain the aspirations of the people of Donetsk - said Pushilin. - We are starting the process of nationalization of enterprises in the territory of the republic. All these years the local oligarchs robbed the laboring population of Donbass

Leftists orgasming in 3... 2... 1...

RT reported yesterday that the Ukrainian parliament voted for the "immediate withdrawal of troops from the country's east". http://rt.com/news/160224-ukraine-troops-withdrawal-constitution/

I was able to locate the document in question but I do not read Ukrainian. http://dt.ua/POLITICS/verhovna-rada-pidtrimala-memorandum-miru-i-zlagodi-tekst-143598_.html

I was wondering if someone could confirm if the document does indeed say what RT is claiming. If so this is pretty big news and none of the Western media outlets are reporting it.

Here is another link with a different document. Don't know why it would be different:

http://www.newsru.ua/ukraine/20may2014/regioni.html

Ok looks like I've found an answer to my question. It appears that the wording about the withdrawal of troops from the east was not included in the final document, hence the two different versions. So RT's report is mistaken and quite misleading.

If anyone can penetrate the fog of misinformation around the whole Akhmetov - Pushilin - Girkin/Strelkov situation, by all means post up a link.

It's difficult to get to the bottom of clashes yesterday around a check-point outside of Donetsk. This is the nature of things as clashes are carried out by various militias, in this case the Russian-leaning "Patriotic forces of Donbass" and the pro-Kiev, "Donbass battalion". In the New Straits Times today a report identifies one Semen Semenchenko as the "Donbass battalion" commander who was on the spot. This is the same Semenchenko who was interviewed by the Guardian (16.5.14) outside of the town of Mariupol and said that many of the civilians involved "were paid to be there.. and referred to them as 'pigs'"."Pigs", "depraved", this is the language of one side in the this proxy war between two major imperialisms, and is matched by similar brutalising language on the other.

It seems to be that the Kiev regime and its US backers are relying more on these armed gangs directed by the Parabuy's National Security and Defence Council, rather than regular Ukrainian troops. The Observer of March 16, over two weeks after Russia's Crimea annexation, reported that in the first few days during and after the event, 70% of Ukrainian troops left their posts. Even if some of them went over to Russian control that's quite a significant number of troops refusing to fight and I'm not surprised that the AWU hasn't mentioned it.

Donbass coalminers go on open-ended strike to demand troop withdrawal from region

subprole,

What do you make of this brief news story you have linked from the pro-Russian Government website (the other side to the BBC)? I know that potentially radical working class strikes and larger movements always start with a minority but ''six miners'! and a self-declared 'separatist' government official announcement? This seems to lack the caution better expressed by baboon on the other thread and surely doesn't help us find our way any better through the fog of misinformation and propaganda around the events in the Ukraine?

Having said that some other interesting snippets appear on that site.

Unfortunately this was the only English article I found at this time. And I rather doubt they meant "six miners" but workers from six coal mines.

Marx's last stand: Eastern Ukraine (complete article)

But what about the heavily industrialised Ukrainian east? Those who think that it is Russia that pulls it back are deeply ignorant of the complexity of the region. The Donbas Region, which comprises 10 percent of Ukraine's population and produces 25 percent of Ukrainian exports, is inhabited by Russian-speaking people who work in mines, steel plants, and machinery factories, and who have a less cheerful view of Westernisation. [...] The pro-Western Ukrainian government has done very little to dispel the fears of Donbas working class, be they ethnically Ukrainian, Russian, Armenian or Hungarian. Maybe the fanatics from western Ukraine can feed themselves on their hatred of all things Russian, but the working men and women of Donetsk, Lugansk, or Kharkiv need bread and butter on their tables. These staples are slipping away, however, as it is becoming more and more obvious that the price of gas will go up, that Russia will stop buying their products, and that the West will close their factories.

Yahoo News today reports that the Jewish Agency, an Israeli NGO funded by US institutions, has been active in Donestk in assisting Jewish families who want to get out. The Agency has been to Donestk and brought some families back to Kiev.

There have been several reports over the last months, that talks have taken place at the diplomatic level between Right Sector US-backed elements in Kiev ministries and Israeli officials including its ambassador to Ukraine. These reports, and the one above from Yahoo today, tend, I think, to support the idea that Israeli special forces are "on the ground" assisting US-backed forces (Israeli special forces reach is becoming ever-wider such as those presently in Nigeria assisting the US in the new "scramble for Africa" against a growing Chinese presence).

The BBC reports today on a denial from the Chechen leader that his forces are involved in Donestk - a claim from Kiev that may or may not be true. There is no news coverage from the BBC about any possible Israeli involvement.

Where have these other reports appeared? Otherwise it seems a bit of a stretch from the 'extraction' activities of the Jewish Agency to IDF special forces assisting Kievan forces against the separatists in the East.

from another 'pro-government' website:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/28/miners-russia-rally-donetsk
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/may/28/ukraine-miners-march-against-kiev-donetsk-video

The reports appeared in the mainstream press, Guardian etc. but, funnily enough, one is unable to access them - they seem to have disappeared. I probably did not put in the correct reference.

In the meantime try Wordpress.com, 26.2.14: "Ukrainian neo-nazis meet with the Israeli ambassador"; AJC (Global Jewish Advocacy) "Delegation meets with PM in Kiev" (also meets with security boss, Foreign MInistry and the US ambassador in Ukraine" and "Jewish Daily Forward of March 7, "Israeli Envoy Meets with Ukrainian 'anti-Semite' Dmitry Yarosh".

I don't for one moment think that an Israeli "NGO", on the ground in eastern Ukraine wouldn't comprise of Israeli special forces. And it is clear that senior Israeli officials have met with security elements of the US-backed Kiev regime.

I will return to the question of the BBC and its specific anti-working class role and defence of British imperialism on another thread.

Oh, and here's another from the good old reliable BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27173857

The situation is becoming ever more chaotic and dangerous: shells from the Ukrainian army hitting schools in Slavyansk; a Ukrainian helicopter shot down killing 14 troops including a general; over a hundred "rebels" killed in Donestk; 80 Ukrainian troops in Lugansk surrendering to pro-Russian paramilitaries; civilian casualties gradually increasing and being drawn into the melee as are striking miners in an ambiguous "open-ended action".

I know I've posted a couple of times on the turn here but I want to continue my reply to Steven and ocelot.

You don't have to speak Ukrainian to clearly see that the present regime in Kiev is a lash-up of the most shaky kind: out and out crooks; oligarchs; bitter political rivals; urban warlords; outside proxies and an army that's more or less disintegrating.

Similarly, you don't have to live in Kiev to know for sure, for absolute certainty, that new economic storms are about to hit bringing in their wake even more austerity for the great masses of people.

But a few words more on the Jewish Agency (which has been "active" in Donetsk) which I think is interesting for showing, not a US/Jewish "conspiracy" - an idea I don't agree with - but for revealing real imperialist developments on the ground whatever language you speak and wherever you live. Within a regime like that of Kiev you can easily see how it needs help from anywhere and while the US has been at the forefront of propping up this regime in its confrontation with Russia, other imperialisms have worked their way in including that of Israel.

This is from the Jewish Agency's website: It was "... instrumental in founding and building the state of Israel and continue(s) to serve as the main link between the Jewish state and Jewish communities everywhere"... "The Jewish Agency continues to be the Jewish world's first responder...", it "works in communities around the world" and undertakes "Educational experiences in the IDF" Its leadership includes ex-Israeli cabinet members, US Cornell and Harvard graduates, ex-CEO of the Jewish Federation of Greater Washington. I make this point because this organisation is clearrly not a bunch of sandle-wearing do-gooders wandering here and there willy-nilly but a force for Israeli imperialism and, by their own admission, they are active in Ukraine. They have a diplomatic veneer of course - all spying and special forces agencies do - but it is a real material force for Israeli imperialism that is active in Ukraine (as it is in other places).

Idk Baboon, it just seems like there's no real point to talking about what the Jewish Agency might be up to in Ukraine. Yes it is possible that they are a hub for Israeli imperialism in Ukraine, Israel did fund Milosevic while the U.S. was funding the KLA and has therefore proven its ability to act independently on issues regarding Eastern Europe, but who knows what they're doing and we are on the precipice of entering a protracted argument on this subject for no reason.

I think it is crucial to highlight what various agencies of the ruling class get up to. It helps dispel the democratic myth. There is always a real point in talking about what is really happening. On the other hand, a running commentary not too dissimilar to bourgeois media without practical action of some kind is relatively pointless, What might be useful ,is some thinking towards what could be possible in the given circumstances. But then isn't that always the case?

from a source in Ukraine about the strike:

Today one of our comrades visited the mine 'Oktyabrsky rudnik' near Donetsk airport. The news that miners of this mine were the first who have risen up for a strike against 'anti-terrorist operation' - confirmed. And the strike was started as a lower initiative of miners themselves and not 'under pressure of masked men from Donetsk Peoples republic' as stated the head of the pro-government so-called 'Independent Trade-union of miners' M. Volynets.
The situation is as followws: On May 26 when Ukrainian army started bombardment of the city - the miners could not go to mines since the risk for miners to be buried in mines in results of strikes and shelling - is too high. This factor contributed to the start of a strike that was immidiately and spontaniously supported by other mines. In result on May 28 there started a protest rally of miners initiated by miners themselves but not by any administartion or authorities.

I'm not at all sure about these strikes in eastern Ukraine and the idea that the initiative came from the workers themselves, from "below". There was a meeting the night before the stiike between separatists and some union leaders. It is quite possible that there was an initiative from the workers but this doesn't necessarily make it a positive development for the class struggle. It's the content of any strike that's all-important and not the form it takes. Unfortunately there is a history of the miners in Ukraine supporting one capitalist faction or the other that goes back a long way. There's even been strikes of miners on one side against miners on strike on the other. The demands of the miners in the east, against "fascism" and for the "withdrawal of Ukrainian troops" (given the state of the Ukrainian army rank and file, a call to fraternise might have been positive) and no mention of the pro-Russian paramilitaries that have brought their fair share of grief to the general population must give cause for concern. I can understand the workers being against this particular "war on terror" and the destruction that it is bringing about but there are two sides in this proxy imperialist war and a denuciation of both would be positive for the working class everywhere. I wouldn't want to put too much store by them, but interviews that I've seen with miners and other workers around the east, have stressed that they are going to be fucked over by either side or the whole situation. While these are minority, anecdotal views they do have a ring of authenticity about them. It will be dangerous for the working class to be mobilised by one side or the other - but, and never say never, it does look to me like this is happening.

On a general level workers' strikes are not necessarily positive for the working class. During the 60's and 70's in Britain for example, unions would call their workers out at a moments notice in order to assert their own authority against a particular boss or the state. I and thousands of others were given immediate notice to strike by the unions on the Upper Clyde in the 60's. No one wanted a strike, no one voted for it and we all trooped out the shipyards like idiots obeying orders, losing money and overtime. Everyone was pissed off. This sort of "action", which took place up and down Britain, enabled the bourgeoisie to effect the old "left/fight game" but it was an argument between one part of the state and another and we just the foot soldiers.

Similarly, some eastern bloc countries used their unions to confront growing protests against their regimes. Romania was one example where the unions armed miners with clubs and sent them against protesting students and other workers. There were strikes in Britain in the 60's and 70's supporting racism and often led by Stalinist/LP-affiliated union leaders: the London docks and the meat market in particular (though the dockers redeemed themselves later, striking in support of the health workers that were mainly black). And then there is the example of the 100% worker involved Ulster Workers' Council strike that was totally reactionary.

I wouldn't rule out a proletarian movement arising in Ukraine - the recent strikes in Bosnia and beyond show how the class struggle emerges in hard conditions - but ii is very difficult given the conditions and the weight of imperialims.

Yeah, baboon, seriously WTF are you on about? You could look at just about every country in the world and point to UK state-linked NGOs meeting with people in wage which put forward UK government policy. Why on earth are you singling out "the Jews" and Israel here?

Tomorrow "leftist" AntiMaidan/pro Putin event in London, go trollin:

http://t.co/ciPBfi8Uv9

I tried raising some points, but got bombarded with rhetoric such as "useful idiot anarchists,","pseudo- socialists", slanderers etc.
Not mentioning them putting up a picture of Polish fascists from Falanaga organisation that recently joined fighting and presenting them as "internationalists" that came to help People's Republic against evils of ukrainian fascisms. Couldn't fucking make that up!

http://nihilist.li/2014/05/22/constitution-donetsk-people-s-republic-russian-nationalism-clericalism-capitalism-die-verfassung-der-volksrepublik-donezk-russischer-nationalismus-klerikalismus-und-kapitalismus/ good description of "Peoples Republic" constitution.

What the fuck I'm talking about above Steven is the situation in Ukraine and the proxy war going on between the US and Russia. I thought that one interesting component of the situation in Ukraine is that the weak US-backed Kiev regime appears to be using Israeli forces in the east. Ocelot asked for some clarification on this and I gave it. IDF forces in easten Ukraine indicate to me a weakness in the Kiev regime. IDF forces, incidentally, are also active in Nigeria and other parts of Africa. We know that US special forces and mercenaries are at work in Ukraine and I imagine that British forces, among others, are there as well. On the Russian side it appears that Chechen forces are involved.

Well, so far I haven't seen any concrete proof of US mercenaries working in Ukraine (not saying it's not happening of course, after all with Yanks everything is possible). How do we "know" that? Can you point me to some proof? Chechen forces on Russian side can be confirmed by lots of footage from recent days and they are not hiding their involvement much.

Anarchistsolidarity, posts 228 and 229 from jonthon and myself respectively link to information that's just as clear, if not clearer, on the role of US forces in Ukraine than that of the Chechens. The sources are Euobserverm, 12.5.14, and Der Speigal, Aprile 29. Sources from German intelligence are also quoted. You yourself followed these two posts with post number 230. Maybe you didn't see them or have forgotten reading them?

Just an interesting incidental (in the scheme of imperialist warfare in Ukraine) regarding the role of forces involved is that of a veteran commander of the Givam IDF Brigade (notorious for its role in "Operation Cast Lead" in Gaza, 2008/9). This apparantly Ukrainian ex-IDF soldier, going under the alias "Delta", along with several IDF veterans, took part in the military wing of action of Maidan taking their orders from Svobada. See Haaretz, 28.2.14 and Global Research 3.3.14.

Hm, article in press with no other evidence so far versus Chechens being there on video, clear as a day saying who they are (and also Chechens are far more obvious than some mercenaries . I still think that one article in press is hardly a concrete proof.

deleted, double post

As good Ukrainian citizens AWU (ACT) participated during the EUromaidan in Kharkov to raise some "awareness" among nationalists (pictures from their own website). Any idiot with some national flag coming that close to an anarchist in Greece would immediately be sent to the next hospital without compromise.

http://avtonomia.net/2014/06/02/podderzhka-krymskih-politzaklyuchyonnyh-na-harkovskom-veche/

subprole

As good citizens AWU (ACT) participated during the Euromaidan in Kharkov to raise some "awareness" among nationalists (pictures from their own website). Any idiot with some national flag coming that close to an anarchist in Greece would immediately be sent to the next hospital without compromise.

sorry, but this is patently ridiculous. You can find pictures of demonstrations all over the world were anarchist/socialist or alongside people holding their national flags. You know about Hungary 56, right? The main flag carried by workers then was the national flag.

National flags were also frequently present during the recent riots in Brazil, in which anarchists took part:

are you saying that you would have "hospitalised" them? :Roll:

The main flag carried by workers then was the national flag.

And this was something "good" I suppose?

National flags were also frequently present during the recent riots in Brazil, in which anarchists took part

The demonstrations, occupations, riots etc. in countries like Brazil, Turkey or Bosnia (where nationalism was virtually absent) and certainly the 1956 uprising in Hungary can under no circumstances be compared to the ultra-reactionary EUromaidan "movement" and also not to this specific event in Kharkov. The whole context is totally different, so your comparisions are irrelevant and more than ridiculous. The participation during this event in Kharkov is at least a further proof of the facts that AWU/ACT are far from equidistant towards the main rival nationalisms in Ukraine and in hypocritical complicity with the (left/liberal-democratic) segments of EUromaidan.

are you saying that you would have "hospitalised" them?

No, I said in Greece (for example) people like these would have been into serious trouble if they would have dared to carry their nationalist propaganda physically "close enough" to anarchists.

subprole

The main flag carried by workers then was the national flag.

And this was something "good" I suppose?

Of course not, why would you think that? I thought my point was quite clear. If it wasn't my point was this: anarchists being near people with national flags without "hospitalising" them is not inherently problematic (even leaving aside the macho bullshit).

National flags were also frequently present during the recent riots in Brazil, in which anarchists took part

The demonstrations, occupations, riots etc. in countries like Brazil, Turkey or Bosnia (where nationalism was virtually absent)

amazing!

If you really think there was no nationalism on display during occupy Gezi, then I think you are basically undermining the appearance of your understanding of international events. And as for Brazil, you are also completely wrong. The far right was active in those demonstrations, and as they were against a left-wing government, some of the institutional left tried to conjure up the "fascist bogeyman" to mobilise support for the government (like here). The same as some did with Ukraine (not to say I think that Euromaidan and the Brazilian movement are comparable, as importantly the latter made working class demands, whereas the former did not).

and certainly the 1956 uprising in Hungary can under no circumstances be compared to the ultra-reactionary EUromaidan "movement" and also not to this specific event in Kharkov. The whole context is totally different, so your comparisions are irrelevant and more than ridiculous.
…
No, I said in Greece (for example) people like these would have been into serious trouble if they would have dared to carry their nationalist propaganda physically "close enough" to anarchists.

good point: the whole context is totally different, so the comparison is are irrelevant and more than ridiculous. Except this was kind of my point: that you can't compare Ukraine to Greece and criticise people on this basis, as the contexts of both are completely different.

If you really think there was no nationalism on display during occupy Gezi, then I think you are basically undermining the appearance of your understanding of international events.

The parenthesis about the absence of nationalism refered to Bosnia and not Turkey or Brazil (that is why it was set behind Bosnia).

anarchists being near people with national flags

It also depends in what kind of demonstration, gathering or whatever they participate. That's why I mentioned it is depending on the whole context. If it is exclusively nationalist (like EUromaidan) it cannot be compared to Bosnia etc.. Besides the movements in Turkey and Brazil are inter-class movements so one should not expect to much.

that you can't compare Ukraine to Greece

I already said Greece cannot be compared to Ukraine: anarchists there would never collaborate with some "EuroSyntagma" (as AWU-ACT does at EUromaidan) and try to "convince" neo-Greek nationalists and other idiotic petty bourgeois civilians.

Anarchistsolidarity above makes out that there is only one report of US special forces at work in Ukraine whereas there are two plus a reference to the German intelligence agency which also provided this information. I can't give Anarchistsolidarity the "concrete proof" that he or she requires. If it isn't clear to anarchistsolidarity that US (plus Israeli and other) forces are at work in Ukraine then there's little more I can say. But anarchistsolidarity shows an extreme naivity. The nuimber of newspaper reports referring to a "thing" doesn't make the "thing" a fact. For examle I could show anarchistsoldiarity 30 or more current media reports from imeccable sources that say that there is a "recovery" in the British economy. The media generally reflects the national intgerest of the ruliing class and as far as the war in Ukraine goes we (in Britain) are getting a particular one-sided view.

Steven asks me above "Why on earth are you singling out Jews and Israel here?" Don't you think it significant for developments in imperialism that forces from Israel are at work in Ukraine? Don't you think it curious that a number of ex-IDF soldiers were active in military units during the original Kiev portests? And I object to your nasty little slur Steven that I am "singling out Jews" (post 276). I got the same sort of racist shit from the "democratic revolutionaries" of Tahrir-ICN who told me that as a westerner criticising the actions of Arab nations, I was a racist.

I agree with subprole that Turkey, Brazil and Bosnia were of an entirely different weight - a fundamental class differece - to the natioanlist and imperialist weight that existed in the Kiev protests right from the very beginning and which from the outset was expressed in the support for a democratic Ukraine, support for one side in an imperialist war by the group AWU.

baboon

Steven asks me above "Why on earth are you singling out Jews and Israel here?" Don't you think it significant for developments in imperialism that forces from Israel are at work in Ukraine? Don't you think it curious that a number of ex-IDF soldiers were active in military units during the original Kiev portests?

not really, no. "Forces" from loads of states all over the world are "at work" in nearly every other country in the world, whether lobbyists, diplomats, consultants, NGOs, government departments, etc, forwarding the interests of capital in their home countries. Israel doesn't do so more than anyone else of a similar size/wealth.

As for ex-servicemen from Israel being involved, you'll also get ex-soldiers from various countries involved in all sorts of protest movements, like the Occupy movement, for example, or the anti-war movement. That doesn't mean anything in itself either.

And I object to your nasty little slur Steven that I am "singling out Jews" (post 276). I got the same sort of racist shit from the "democratic revolutionaries" of Tahrir-ICN who told me that as a westerner criticising the actions of Arab nations, I was a racist.

okay well I see you're unhappy about it. If you go pick out a bunch of NGOs and governments which aren't Jewish/Israeli and are also active in the Ukraine then you can have some balance.

baboon

I thought that one interesting component of the situation in Ukraine is that the weak US-backed Kiev regime appears to be using Israeli forces in the east. Ocelot asked for some clarification on this and I gave it.

No you didn't. When I asked for sources that Israeli agents were involved not in the extraction of Jews from threatening situations (as they say they are) but in actually supporting the Kievan war-effort you gave me some flannel about mysteriously disappearing reports from "the Guardian, etc.". Then the following references:

baboon

Wordpress.com, 26.2.14: "Ukrainian neo-nazis meet with the Israeli ambassador"; AJC (Global Jewish Advocacy) "Delegation meets with PM in Kiev" (also meets with security boss, Foreign MInistry and the US ambassador in Ukraine" and "Jewish Daily Forward of March 7, "Israeli Envoy Meets with Ukrainian 'anti-Semite' Dmitry Yarosh"

The first one appears to be a Greek nazi blog. [which I am not about to link - fuck that]. The second one is a google null return. The third is at least locateable and not nazi - so link here [http://forward.com/articles/194014/israel-envoy-meets-with-ukraine-anti-semite-dmitry/] But it is basically the news that is contained in the headline. I.e. that the Israeli Envoy met with Yarosh - who's a known fascist and antisemite (this is basically the same content that the Greek nazi is all in a lather about). Of the organisation of Israeli military support for Kiev regime troops, absolutely nothing.

baboon

I don't for one moment think that an Israeli "NGO", on the ground in eastern Ukraine wouldn't comprise of Israeli special forces. And it is clear that senior Israeli officials have met with security elements of the US-backed Kiev regime.

Well given that they're operating in a war-zone with heavily armed antisemites and neo-nazis on both sides, sure, if I was the Jewish Agency, I'd only send my most militarily competent operatives as well. This is the land that invented the pogrom, after all. But again, what does this have to do with providing evidence that the Israelis are there to support the Kievan war effort, rather than doing what they have openly said they are trying to do - extract Jews in vulnerable situations.

You get very huffy about Steven asking you why you are singling out the Israeli agency, and yet you seem to think you have presented evidence and/or a logical argument for why the Israelis are now being used by the Kiev regime as part of their military arsenal. Frankly your "but of course, if they're there they must be" argument is at the level of conspiracy theoretical non sequiteur.

Finally, here is the link for another one of your references, which is interesting enough (as far as it goes, which is not as far as some people appear to think - you do know that Odessa and Kiev are the main cities of the historic Pale of Settlement right?)

Haaretz: The ex-Israeli soldier who led a Kiev fighting unit

But as for referencing 9/11 truther and Galloway-style "any enemy of the US is a friend of mine" conspiraloon Michel Chossudovsky, you really need to pay more attention to your sources, Greek nazis included.

Thank you for your patronizing reply baboon. Still no proof though apart from "German intelligence sources" mentioned here or there.

Don't mention it as.

I'll keep this short because I'm away on holiday - work actually but a holiday.

I know Steven that every nation state has its own forces for imperialism and Israel is certainly no exception. The resaons why I mentioned the activities in Ukraiine is because that is what this thread is about. But you know that.

Ocelot agrees that Israeli forces are present in Ukraine. Ocelot says that they are there to protect pieople. Now humanitarian intervention, protecting our citizens, saving the lives of civilians, where have I heard that shit spouted before over the last many decades?

The situation in Ukraine is definitely dangerous for the working class throughout Europe in the longer term but specifically now for the population of Ukraine the danger of nationalism and democracy is there to overwhelm any actions of the proletariat. Centrifugal tendencies are being strengthened as the crisis spills to the Baltic States, and Abkazia on the Russian side for example. The nationalist movement that began in Kiev was the anti-thesis of the movements of Turkey, Bosnia and Brazil for example, all of which had a relatively strong proletarian content. The content of yet another Ukrainain "revolution" was rotton from the off.

Some quotes from Observer Ukraine’s article Petro Poroshenko: the Chocolate King walks onto a sticky wicket:

After his election to the presidency in 2010 Viktor Yanukovych had silenced the PR’s nationalist wing by co-opting its leaders into the party’s patronage and power sharing networks in government. But upon his ejection from Kyiv Russian nationalism was needed to spur a whole set of initiatives – People’s Fronts, anti-Maidan rallies, self defense militias. Their declared common aim was to protect Russian speakers from Ukrainian “fascists and banderites”, but their real aim was to prevent the spread of the Maidan movement into the east and its possible transformation into an-anti-bourgeois movement that could threaten the oligarchs’ property and power in their eastern industrial heartland. (Observer Ukraine’s emphasis)
(...)
The separatist campaign has grown in three months and taken effective military control over many government buildings, police stations, state security buildings, weapons stores, transport arteries and communications facilities. It acquired an initial social base by recruiting to its ranks local lumpen elements, unemployed youth and criminal gangs who were given firearms and paid to man the block-posts on the roads.

However, this local source of recruits dried up. The separatists’ military commander, (...) recently complained publicly that local residents were coming to take arms from his stores, only to return home to use them to protect their own communities, rather than to serve in the separatists’ militias. (My own emphasis, GdC) He declared that his forces would start to recruit women. But locals have proved hard to recruit and the most recent reinforcements to the separatists’ fighting units are mercenaries coming over the border from Russia.

baboon

Ocelot agrees that Israeli forces are present in Ukraine. Ocelot says that they are there to protect pieople.

I did not say that. I said the Jewish Agency* have said that they are there to protect Jews (no doubt including family members of people who migrated to Israel from Ukraine in the 90s and 2000s) and that I see no reason to doubt that that task is one of the items on their jobsheet.

That they may be up to other stuff as well is entirely possible, and if anyone has any actual evidence that they are, I'm all ears. But I'm not going to let pass the usual conspiracy logic pass if there's no evidence behind it - which so far, there ain't.

----
* also I did not say "Israeli forces" - given all Israeli men ( other than refusniks, ovs) and a good number of women, are either ex-IDF or reservists, to frame that as "Israeli forces" is a bit like saying that anywhere Swiss tourists go means the presence of "Swiss forces" - given that all Swiss men are likewise in the army.

Guerre de Classe

Some quotes from Observer Ukraine’s article Petro Poroshenko: the Chocolate King walks onto a sticky wicket:

Their declared common aim was to protect Russian speakers from Ukrainian “fascists and banderites”, but their real aim was to prevent the spread of the Maidan movement into the east and its possible transformation into an-anti-bourgeois movement that could threaten the oligarchs’ property and power in their eastern industrial heartland. (Observer Ukraine’s emphasis)

Thats so pathetic. For anyone to fear that "Maidan"s "spread" would threaten "the oligarchs property and power" in the Southeast it would have to challenge it even in the most rudimentary way in the rest of the country. So "the oligarchs" felt so threatened by "Maidan" (because it could lead X which "could' lead to Y, and not B and D ) that they organized it and supported it and spoke out against secession from Ukraine, that would break them off from the political center in Kiev. But in reality (hidden from their public) they were behind the secession insurrection, they just forgot to organize it where most of their "property and power" is (and "fascists and banderites" are in quotations because these groups, if they even exist, are doing the dirty work the Maidan leftists shy away from; so why disparage them, they do no harm).

This is the literal mirror image of what anti-maidan has been writing for months http://links.org.au/node/3838 . And in the same vein "local lumpen elements, unemployed youth and criminal gangs who were given firearms and paid to man the block-posts on the roads" is a perfect way to describe the Maidan movement and its left factions from its inception in the department of state. And equally as Observer Ukraine's civilization project is faced with indifference and contempt from Western Ukrainians, who have proved hard to recruit (and not to mention Southern Ukrainians), "the most recent reinforcements to the separatists’[(separatism from Russia)] fighting units are mercenaries coming over the border from" the EU.
The conflict mirrors ever geater the destruction of Yugoslavia by Germany and the US and the internal constituent parts, and yet these leftist cretins have nothing to say besides that their opponents are secretly yearning to join the nationalist project that directs its animosity towards them and that their own financial backers are actually the financial backers of the enemy. You couldn't make this shit up. And it gets more ridiculous with every new massacre and call in Kiev to ban opposition parties. And of course Ukraine is the model and future for the rest of "europe." To think that this left existed before the conflict and waiting for just this bloodbath and financial plunder in order to celebrate it as the new dawn, is just eerie.

Ukraine’s Crisis – Local Players and Imperialist Games

presented for information purposes:
Donetsk: miners give Kiev 48h ultimatum “stop war or we will take up arms”

About the declaration of AWU "On the confrontation in Ukraine" (http://avtonomia.net/2014/06/17/vojna-vojne-zayavlenie-levyh-i-anarhistov-po-povodu-protivostoyaniya-v-ukraine-2/)

The KRAS, section of the International Workers Association in Russian region, appreciates the statement of Ukrainian "Autonomous Workers' Union" (AWU/AST) "On the confrontation in Ukraine" as a step in the right direction. Condemning both sides of the civil war, it differs in this point favorably from the previous position of AWU/AST representatives who refused in March to sign the statement of KRAS, internationalists of Ukraine, Russia and other countries (http://www.aitrus.info/node/3608)

The AWU/AST representatives motivated their disagreement with our Declaration by the very fact that we stand with the position of condemnation all warring parties, while they supported the "people" who gathered to "Evromaidan" and called for the protection of Ukrainian "homeland" from "Russian aggression". Some groups and members of the AWU/AST participated in the reactionary "Maidan" protests against the also reactionary Yanukovich government, without being disturbed even by an active role of the far-right groups in the "Maidan" coup. After the outbreak of armed conflict in the east of Ukraine, some active members of AWU/AST actually supported the idea of armed suppression of "Antimaidan" by the new Kiev authorities.

A new declaration of the AWU/AST looks more balanced and contains no sympathy for punitive operations of the Kiev authorities in the East of the country. Nevertheless, it is full of contradictions, in our opinion. So, it condemned first of all the separatist coup in eastern Ukraine ("Antimaidan"), and only then the Kiev government, although the "Antimaidan" was a reaction to the earlier "Maidan" coup. Moreover, the statement of AWU/AST contained again praise for "Maidan", which allegedly prevented the curtailing of rights and freedoms, while in fact the "Maidan" coup a opened the way for the adoption of new reactionary laws (including the "austerity" regime imposed by the EU and the IMF) and for the militarization of society, it made largely the hands free for the terror of the ultra-right groups and unleashed a spiral of confrontation, which ultimately led to the current outbreak of the Civil War. In the spirit of the official mode of Kiev war propaganda, the statement asserted that Antimaidan is just a manifestation of aggression of "Putin and his satellites", although most of the population in eastern Ukraine has repeatedly spoken out in the past against the political forces which organized the "Maidan" coup. The authors of the statement warn against the emergence of Ukrainian "Putins" as if regime of billionaire and oligarch Poroshenko is somewhat better than the Kremlin oligarchy. Finally, the AWU/AST condemns expansionist actions of the Russian state, but not one word mentioned inflammatory actions of its equally imperialist rivals from NATO. There is no mention of the need to cease hostilities and stop the death of workers under the bullets and shells of punitive forces of “anti-terrorist operation”. The statement completely ignores the catastrophic humanitarian situation in eastern Ukraine, and blames for this tragedy exclusively the separatists and "agents" of Russia.

We do not feel the slightest sympathy for the regimes established by separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk, as in the past time we did not have any sympathy f.ex. for the nationalist separatist regime in Chechnya. But then and now, this don`t hinder us to condemn the war and to call for a cessation of hostilities and the withdrawal of military troops, paramilitaries, mercenaries or “volunteer” from all sides from the conflict zone.

For us, both camps in the confrontation are equally conservative and nationalist, and any significant difference between them is not visible: neither in social and economic area, nor in domestic or foreign policy. Neither submission to the European Union, nor the submission to the Russian oligarchy can solve the problems of the working people of Ukraine. As before, we emphasize that the victory of one or another group of the bourgeoisie and the national-conservative reaction may lead only to social disaster for workers in the country.

We remain convinced that the workers have no homeland to defend. We equally condemn Maidan and Antimaidan; Kiev and Donetsk; Russia and NATO. We do not believe that a right side can exist in the struggle for power, influence or control over the territories between bourgeois cliques. In situations where the revolutionary internationalists do not have enough force to intervene and to crush both rival gangs, the most urgent task is to conduct an anti-war agitation among the workers so that they do not engage in military or paramilitary forces of Kiev, Donetsk or Luhansk regimes but instead remember their class interest and fight for their basic socio-economic needs: improving the living and working conditions and cancellation of imposed policy of "austerity".

Our slogans remain the same:

WAR ON WAR!
NO WAR BUT THE CLASS WAR!
NOT A SINGLE DROP A BLOOD FOR THE “NATION”!
http://www.aitrus.info/node/3818

subprole

No, I said in Greece (for example) people like these would have been into serious trouble if they would have dared to carry their nationalist propaganda physically "close enough" to anarchists.

Seems to me you haven't been in Greece for awhile. Since maybe 2009 or 2010 there have been plenty of Greek flags in major demonstrations.

Steven.

could someone post a translation of that to libcom, if it's worthwhile?

It is worthwile, but no time to translate, sorry.

subprole

The Ukrainian state is attacking and treats the eastern provinces in the most brutal way, while inside the west and center of Ukraine is prevailing bourgeois normality(more or less…).
Why is that? Why also the Ukrainian state characterizes the eastern provinces as “terrorists” (sic)?

This is ridiculous nationalist stuff, as it confuses geographic entities with subjects. There is no "eastern provinces" being attacked, but separatists fighters supported by some 12% of the population. Of course plenty of civilians will be slaughtered the sametime, and we should oppose this (and the war in general), but it is possible to do that without ridiculous nationalist analysis.

I expect AST members to discuss the first paragraph, whereas I will comment parts of your reply which refer to contents of the current statement and not claimed (but unsubstantiated) claims on commentaries of AST members.

Foristaruso

A new declaration of the AWU/AST looks more balanced and contains no sympathy for punitive operations of the Kiev authorities in the East of the country. Nevertheless, it is full of contradictions, in our opinion. So, it condemned first of all the separatist coup in eastern Ukraine ("Antimaidan"), and only then the Kiev government, although the "Antimaidan" was a reaction to the earlier "Maidan" coup.

The order of the topics is totally irrelevant. More space is sacrificed for criticism of the Kiev government than to criticism of the separatists. The fact that you are even making this a topic is ridiculous.

Coup d'etat is an event in which part of the ruling class just pushes aside another part, without any mass involvement. Revolution is a regime change with a mass involvement - not necessarily progressive, it may also be a bourgeois one.

I consider February events in Kiev as something between coup and revolution, both elements were present. However, if you claim these events as a mere "coup", you deny there was any mass involvement whatsoever. This is denial of the reality, and close to conspiracy theories of the people like Borotba organisation and other European stalinists.

Foristaruso

Moreover, the statement of AWU/AST contained again praise for "Maidan", which allegedly prevented the curtailing of rights and freedoms, while in fact the "Maidan" coup a opened the way for the adoption of new reactionary laws (including the "austerity" regime imposed by the EU and the IMF) and for the militarization of society, it made largely the hands free for the terror of the ultra-right groups and unleashed a spiral of confrontation, which ultimately led to the current outbreak of the Civil War.

Do you really believe the new reactionary laws would not have been adopted with the Yanukovich regime as well? That is a rather naive belief.

Issue of militarization is dealt in the resolution. As for the "terror of ultra-right groups", this is wildly exaggerated in Russian media and is obviously not the reason of the current spiral of confrontation. The "Banderovists threat" is rather a manipulative scare crow, which apparently has had an effect to you as well.

Foristaruso

In the spirit of the official mode of Kiev war propaganda, the statement asserted that Antimaidan is just a manifestation of aggression of "Putin and his satellites", although most of the population in eastern Ukraine has repeatedly spoken out in the past against the political forces which organized the "Maidan" coup.

Where and when has "most of the population" spoken? "Most of the population" is rather passive but against both sides.

Foristaruso

The authors of the statement warn against the emergence of Ukrainian "Putins" as if regime of billionaire and oligarch Poroshenko is somewhat better than the Kremlin oligarchy.

This is a straw man argument. There is plenty of criticism against Kiev regime in the statement.

Foristaruso

Finally, the AWU/AST condemns expansionist actions of the Russian state, but not one word mentioned inflammatory actions of its equally imperialist rivals from NATO.

Where, in Libya? Or Afghanistan? That is rather off topic. Or do you claim that Maidan was a NATO conspiracy?

Foristaruso

There is no mention of the need to cease hostilities and stop the death of workers under the bullets and shells of punitive forces of “anti-terrorist operation”. The statement completely ignores the catastrophic humanitarian situation in eastern Ukraine, and blames for this tragedy exclusively the separatists and "agents" of Russia.

Another straw-man argument. There is plenty of criticism of the both sides in the statement, and it is obvious that it is against the war as a whole.

Foristaruso

We do not feel the slightest sympathy for the regimes established by separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk, as in the past time we did not have any sympathy f.ex. for the nationalist separatist regime in Chechnya. But then and now, this don`t hinder us to condemn the war and to call for a cessation of hostilities and the withdrawal of military troops, paramilitaries, mercenaries or “volunteer” from all sides from the conflict zone.

What do you consider the conflict zone? To me it seems like whole of Ukraine is a conflict zone. And perhaps Russia as well. Obviously you may call for withdrawal of any bourgeois armies from the planet, but that is pretty much the same thing as calling for a workers' revolution. A necessary call, but not any sort of "immediate solution" you are apparently asking for.

Foristaruso

For us, both camps in the confrontation are equally conservative and nationalist, and any significant difference between them is not visible: neither in social and economic area, nor in domestic or foreign policy.

There are huge differences, which however are not a reason to pick sides.

To S2W:

1) Revolution supposes not only the change of ruler but also progressive social and economic changes. There are not such things. So it is ridiculous or reactionary to call Maidan "revolution". Although it was a movement with participation of "masses" sometimes, these "masses" are not obviously progressive. There were "masses" also in the NSDAP or in Ruanda genocide. And the "masses" for EU, as this time

2) Maidan was not a NATO conspiracy, of course. But NATO clearly interfered to forbid Yanukovich to extrude protesters. Unlike the case of Erdogan repression in Turkey f.ex.

3) Immediate solution is the stop of hostilities and not the victory of one side

4) As to reactionary laws or activities of new Kiev government, there are very much, and not only for violent things but also for dissident opinion (http://english.cntv.cn/2014/04/08/ARTI1396964142829309.shtml; http://www.rbc.ua/rus/news/politics/sbu-vozbudila-delo-protiv-polzovatelya-facebook-za-prizyvy-19062014184000 - about punishment of Internet comments; http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/turchynov-law-enforcers-studying-political-parties-involvement-in-supporting-separatists-in-ukraine-347442.html; http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1403182147; etc.) It is not better than Yanukovich laws

Seems to me you haven't been in Greece for awhile. Since maybe 2009 or 2010 there have been plenty of Greek flags in major demonstrations.

This is not related to what I exactly said in any way. So this is manipulation by S2W.

This is ridiculous nationalist stuff, as it confuses geographic entities with subjects. There is no "eastern provinces" being attacked, but separatists fighters supported by some 12% of the population. Of course plenty of civilians will be slaughtered the sametime, and we should oppose this (and the war in general), but it is possible to do that without ridiculous nationalist analysis.

In S2W's irrelevant opinion this excellent analysis is nationalist. Anyone able to read knows this is more than idiotic. Here the whole text again: http://aruthlesscritiqueagainsteverythingexisting1.wordpress.com/2014/05/15/notes-on-the-fascist-state-of-ukraine-and-many-others/

subprole

This is not related to what I exactly said in any way. So this is manipulation by S2W.

You claimed Greek anarchists have managed to keep Greek flags out of the demonstrations in Greece. This has not been the case for years. Greek social protest is about as plagued by nationalism as in any other place.

subprole

In S2W's irrelevant opinion this excellent analysis is nationalist. Anyone able to read knows this is more than idiotic.

Obviously you do not have any argument against me.

Foristaruso

To S2W:

It gets a bit complicated to dscuss in 2 threads in the same time. I'll answer in the thread about AST resoluton here: http://libcom.org/news/war-against-war-statement-leftists-anarchists-confrontation-ukraine-19062014

Support Crimean anarchist Aleksandr Kolchenko, detained on terror charges!

http://libcom.org/news/support-crimean-anarchist-aleksandr-kolchenko-detained-terror-charges-27062014

Statement of the Kharkiv Autonomous Workers Union members about creation of social and cultural center

http://libcom.org/news/statement-kharkiv-autonomous-workers-union-members-about-creation-social-cultural-center-27

You claimed Greek anarchists have managed to keep Greek flags out of the demonstrations in Greece. This has not been the case for years. Greek social protest is about as plagued by nationalism as in any other place.

No, I did not and that is just your psychotic manipulation of what I exactly said and meant. Besides anarchists there have participated in general strikes and not in a (fundamentally) nationalist petite bourgeois "movement" for regime change like Euromaidan in Ukraine. The discussion is over.

http://libcom.org/library/ukraine-nothing-expect-europe-or-russia/

As we promised already a few weeks ago, here we finally publish the English translation of the OCL text, originally available in French on http://oclibertaire.free.fr/spip.php?article1506. Very interesting text especially because of its materialist and non-idealist method that analyzes the movement, its process and its dynamics, only after it tackles its weaknesses, its lacks, the illusions of its protagonists, their ideologies, nationalism, the influence of far right, etc.

The only reservation we would like to emphasize here concerns the fact that the text is on the one hand uncritical towards “revolutionary” unionism (although we understand that historically important sectors of the proletariat proclaimed this appellation) that is methodologically unable of being revolutionary just as parliamentarianism cannot.

And on the other hand it is uncritical towards “plenums” that developed as an answer from the dictatorship of democracy (no matter if it claims to be a parliamentary, “direct”, “workers” or another one) to the needs of our class at the time of the recent struggles in Bosnia-Herzegovina. These “plenums” have been so much criticized by many structures (local as well as international ones), which proclaim social revolution, “anarchism” or communism, to prevent anybody to rush again headlong into the trap of democratic myths. Good reading…

http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities

No, I did not and that is just your psychotic manipulation of what I exactly said and meant.

You claimed

Any idiot with some national flag coming that close to an anarchist in Greece would immediately be sent to the next hospital without compromise.

But that is bullshit. In austerity protests national flags have been all around, also next to anarchists.

In austerity protests national flags have been all around, also next to anarchists.

Even if this would be true it would be totally i r r e l e v a n t because Majdan was n o t an anti-austerity protest or general strike movement like in Greece with (mostly) working class composition but a neoliberal coup with an petite bourgeois opposition "progressive" as in Venezuela - and ironically intensifying the neoliberal project. Anarchists in Greece and probably almost anywhere else would under n o circumstances participate in reactionary "movements" like EU-Majdan where left-nationalists of AWU were parasiting among liberal democrats, neonazis etc.. As your previous comments clearly demonstrate you consciously try to manipulate the discussion by obfuscating the total difference between the concrete situations and movements in general. You are an idiotic fucking comedian and constantly repeating the same bullshit in robotic manner. Continue your monologue somewhere else or write another petion to the European parliament as the AWU arselickers did. Σκατά στα μουτρα σου!