At 19:19 (GMT) today the BBC Global 30 share index was 117.42 points down, or 1.57%. Does this mean that, all things being equal, the working class, globally, was 1.57% better off?
Good answer but incorrect. Those physically trading in commodities are generally not the beneficiaries of a rising market or of 'trading short' but are overwhelmingly wage labourers. Besides which, your answer evades the question.
At 19:19 (GMT) today the BBC Global 30 share index was 117.42 points down, or 1.57%. Does this mean that, all things being equal, the working class, globally, was 1.57% better off?
The Shanghai Composite index closed 2.3% higher at 3,361.84 points as measures from regulators to support the stock market started to have an impact...
And:
Monday's 7% plunge in the Shanghai market, which led to the suspension of trading for the first time, triggered a global equities rout.
As you insist, to put it in vulgar terms, if the rich get poorer, than the poor get richer. In less vulgar terms, I think fluctuations in the value of capital reflect capital's own expectations/appraisal for the state of the economy. Thanks for your answer to the question.
BBC headline today:
China trading halt sparks 3% fall for Europe shares
According to the BBC, this is only the second time in its history that the Shanghai market has suspended trading, the first time being on Monday of this week.
James MacBryde, if I understand you correctly (though you haven't given much to go on), you believe that capitalism is a zero-sum game and that if the capitalist class loses a certain percentage of its wealth then, of necessity, the workers must gain the same proportion. None of the quotes you'e given reinforce that in any way. I'm not sure that a fall in the value of the markets necessarily means that the wealth of the capitalist class as a whole falls - on what basis do you make that assumption? I reckon even Marx would say it's way more complicated than that, and that last RBS quote seems to be saying something similar. Steven has asked you several times what point you're making, and each time you quote something about the stock markets without explaining yourself. So, what point ARE you making? (Maybe it's a waste of time but I'm enjoying this thread for some stoopid reason).
Red, I am glad you're enjoying this thread. My first job was as a clerk in a stockbrokers' office. I saw the 'good times' of the eighties and witnessed all the self-congratultions of the interested parties. As our class was defeated, the stock market rose and my complexion grew more sallow from lack of exposure to sunlight. and exposure to Tennant Extra and cigarettes. Then in 1989 the tide turned, the work dried up and I quit. Then the world witnessed an unprecedented bear market for 10 years. Then 2008, 'global financial crisis' and simultaneously an upsurge in our class struggle. As a means of stalling the panic, Quantitative Easing (primitive accumulation). It is merely professional interest. Don't think I think market fluctuations have any consequences in the real world but I think they may be an indicator of capitalist confidence in itself.
Isn't quantitive easing just the bourgeoisie stealing a tranche of cash from the taxpayer, like the way the land lords stole a whole heap of Scottish land in the Highland clearances?
Back to the thread. A good day on the markets, fellahs
I’m no economist or historian so just a couple of comments.
The radio stated that the suspension of trading in the Shanghai market was due to the low 7% threshold; in USA it is 20% before a suspension is triggered. The mechanism is a new feature in China and it was suggested the level was set too low.
The idea that the ‘Lords of England stole a whole heap of Scottish land’ is a myth. The Scottish ruling class embraced capitalism with relish and many would sell their grannies if the price was right.
For what it is worth the ‘union of the crowns’ was when the English took a Scot onto the throne. An examination of the British ruling class will reveal a disproportionate number of Scots in positions of power. The Scots working class often doped with religion and nationalism were treated like dirt and celebrated as cannon fodder.
Surely it's just proof that capitalism doesn't and never has worked.
James MacBryde
Isn't quantitive easing just the bourgeoisie stealing a tranche of cash from the taxpayer, like the way the Lords of England stole a whole heap of Scottish land?
Back to the thread. A good day on the markets, fellahs
Thinking back, the office in Sun Street where I held my first full-time job would have been good meat for a sociologist. It encapsulated the social tiers of British society. Down in the deep basement lurked the true English working class, the labouring class. In a tiny room barely big enough to hold its contents worked two typists. They were not Personal Secretaries but spade workers deprived of any natural light and very little oxygen (the air conditioning had its source of air on the roof and thus had to travel down through the seven floors getting thinner as it went). On the upper basement was the post-room with Minky and his franking machine and his boss Frank. Ground floor reception. Up one more floor was the heart of the operation where all the nitty gritty was carried out under the tender care of Mr Driver. Up to the second, this was where clerks were now called 'Administrative Assistants'. The third floor was the middle, middle class. Stockbrokers but only with a smattering of private clients. The fourth floor had a leisured feel about it and was home to about five gentlemen (and one Lord) and their Private Secretaries. Finally, if you made it to the top floor you'd reached my personal heaven: fine wines and gourmet food: the Directors lunchroom. And of the class struggle in these walls? There was little mention. Perhaps Minkies niggling little jibbes at Mr Haggar, "Yuppie bastard", which definitely hit their mark; or the raging argument on the topic of Poll Tax after the Battle of Trafalgar.
Auld-bold, the mechanism for shutting down the Shanghai stockmarket has now been removed completely after the [non-]events detailed in the original post.
In accordance with your criticism I have altered my comment to read:
...the land lords stole a whole heap of Scottish land in the Highland clearances
Another good day on the markets:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-3437391/London-shares-drop-2-7-global-stock-markets-pounding-investors-seek-solace-safe-havens.html
A recent useful commentary following on from current stock market falls:
www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2016-02-04/the-vanishing-recovery-of-global-capitalism
A recent useful commentary following on from current stock market falls:
www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2016-02-04/the-vanishing-recovery-of-global-capitalism
Are the current dramatic fluctuations in the value of stock markets unprecedented? I know that automated trading has an effect but nonetheless I cannot remember a period when there has been such dramatic ups and downs.
Lol! It means those trading
Lol! It means those trading short are better off!
Webby: Quote: Lol! It means
Webby:
Good answer but incorrect. Those physically trading in commodities are generally not the beneficiaries of a rising market or of 'trading short' but are overwhelmingly wage labourers. Besides which, your answer evades the question.
James MacBryde wrote: At
James MacBryde
No, of course not.
Do you have a point you are trying to make?
I was just recently thinking
I was just recently thinking about how stock market crash in 1929 ushered in a wave of working class prosperity....
From the BBC
From the BBC today:
And:
[my emphasis]
What's your point?
What's your point?
Steven repeats: Quote: What's
Steven repeats:
As you insist, to put it in vulgar terms, if the rich get poorer, than the poor get richer. In less vulgar terms, I think fluctuations in the value of capital reflect capital's own expectations/appraisal for the state of the economy. Thanks for your answer to the question.
BBC headline today:
According to the BBC, this is only the second time in its history that the Shanghai market has suspended trading, the first time being on Monday of this week.
Quote: Sell everything except
RBS note to client
James MacBryde, if I
James MacBryde, if I understand you correctly (though you haven't given much to go on), you believe that capitalism is a zero-sum game and that if the capitalist class loses a certain percentage of its wealth then, of necessity, the workers must gain the same proportion. None of the quotes you'e given reinforce that in any way. I'm not sure that a fall in the value of the markets necessarily means that the wealth of the capitalist class as a whole falls - on what basis do you make that assumption? I reckon even Marx would say it's way more complicated than that, and that last RBS quote seems to be saying something similar. Steven has asked you several times what point you're making, and each time you quote something about the stock markets without explaining yourself. So, what point ARE you making? (Maybe it's a waste of time but I'm enjoying this thread for some stoopid reason).
Red, I am glad you're
Red, I am glad you're enjoying this thread. My first job was as a clerk in a stockbrokers' office. I saw the 'good times' of the eighties and witnessed all the self-congratultions of the interested parties. As our class was defeated, the stock market rose and my complexion grew more sallow from lack of exposure to sunlight. and exposure to Tennant Extra and cigarettes. Then in 1989 the tide turned, the work dried up and I quit. Then the world witnessed an unprecedented bear market for 10 years. Then 2008, 'global financial crisis' and simultaneously an upsurge in our class struggle. As a means of stalling the panic, Quantitative Easing (primitive accumulation). It is merely professional interest. Don't think I think market fluctuations have any consequences in the real world but I think they may be an indicator of capitalist confidence in itself.
Fair enough on that last
Fair enough on that last sentence, but
these are not the same.
Isn't quantitive easing just
Isn't quantitive easing just the bourgeoisie stealing a tranche of cash from the taxpayer, like the way the land lords stole a whole heap of Scottish land in the Highland clearances?
Back to the thread. A good day on the markets, fellahs
BBC Global 30, down 1.35%
I’m no economist or historian
I’m no economist or historian so just a couple of comments.
The radio stated that the suspension of trading in the Shanghai market was due to the low 7% threshold; in USA it is 20% before a suspension is triggered. The mechanism is a new feature in China and it was suggested the level was set too low.
The idea that the ‘Lords of England stole a whole heap of Scottish land’ is a myth. The Scottish ruling class embraced capitalism with relish and many would sell their grannies if the price was right.
For what it is worth the ‘union of the crowns’ was when the English took a Scot onto the throne. An examination of the British ruling class will reveal a disproportionate number of Scots in positions of power. The Scots working class often doped with religion and nationalism were treated like dirt and celebrated as cannon fodder.
Surely it's just proof that
Surely it's just proof that capitalism doesn't and never has worked.
James MacBryde
Thinking back, the office in
Thinking back, the office in Sun Street where I held my first full-time job would have been good meat for a sociologist. It encapsulated the social tiers of British society. Down in the deep basement lurked the true English working class, the labouring class. In a tiny room barely big enough to hold its contents worked two typists. They were not Personal Secretaries but spade workers deprived of any natural light and very little oxygen (the air conditioning had its source of air on the roof and thus had to travel down through the seven floors getting thinner as it went). On the upper basement was the post-room with Minky and his franking machine and his boss Frank. Ground floor reception. Up one more floor was the heart of the operation where all the nitty gritty was carried out under the tender care of Mr Driver. Up to the second, this was where clerks were now called 'Administrative Assistants'. The third floor was the middle, middle class. Stockbrokers but only with a smattering of private clients. The fourth floor had a leisured feel about it and was home to about five gentlemen (and one Lord) and their Private Secretaries. Finally, if you made it to the top floor you'd reached my personal heaven: fine wines and gourmet food: the Directors lunchroom. And of the class struggle in these walls? There was little mention. Perhaps Minkies niggling little jibbes at Mr Haggar, "Yuppie bastard", which definitely hit their mark; or the raging argument on the topic of Poll Tax after the Battle of Trafalgar.
Auld-bold, the mechanism for
Auld-bold, the mechanism for shutting down the Shanghai stockmarket has now been removed completely after the [non-]events detailed in the original post.
In accordance with your criticism I have altered my comment to read:
Another good day on the
Another good day on the markets:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-3437391/London-shares-drop-2-7-global-stock-markets-pounding-investors-seek-solace-safe-havens.html
A recent useful commentary
A recent useful commentary following on from current stock market falls:
www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2016-02-04/the-vanishing-recovery-of-global-capitalism
Spikymike wrote: A recent
Spikymike
good image too
Are the current dramatic
Are the current dramatic fluctuations in the value of stock markets unprecedented? I know that automated trading has an effect but nonetheless I cannot remember a period when there has been such dramatic ups and downs.