Is it capitalistic for a union to be selfish and abuse its power?

Yeah, the miners are holding the country to ransom. what a bunch of bastards, aren't they?

Unfairly good treatment is right, why they're only common working people. Treat them like the rest, beat them down and kick them till they know their place. Make the world safe for the better class.

TimtheLion said in a different thread:

I could then formulate an intelligent counter argument.

Clearly this is not true.

timthelion

My general feeling, is that the coal miners power over electricity production is a kind of capital, and that these coal miners are exploiting it just as any other capitalist would. They want these gifts from the government, not because they work hard, but because they are alied to people who can cause the governemnt big problems. What is libcom's take on the situation?

Jesus Christ are you actually serious?

These words you are using, like "capital" and "capitalist", do you actually know what any of these words means?

It's true though, coal miners get treated so well. Bit like prisons nowadays. Coal mines aren't hard work, they're basically holiday camps!

It is terrible how all those lazy workers bully the coal mine owners. Those guys are really struggling, with their tens of billions of dollars, huge mansions, holiday homes and private jets. It would be better if they didn't have to pay miners anything at all, then maybe more of them would be able to afford private islands. Fingers crossed those capitalistic unions will lose and the non-capitalist coal companies can make some more profits so they can fairly reward the shareholders who do all the hard work the miners don't do…

The situation is interesting although the question has a problem with it. There is no "libcom's take" because Libcom is not an organization that takes positions. And the comments on it are becoming less coherent. All you can ask for are opinions of readers, which might vary.

l can speak a little to this question since we have a large mining sector and a lot of Polish miners went to Czech and we have comrades in this region working in that industry. So we are been following things happening in the south of our region and yours for some years.

(l assume you are talking about the situation with OKD - right? Or maybe something else?)

First of all, most unions are not revolutionary organizations but ones that seek to fight for the workers' material well being in the existing capitalist framework. Some unions seek to build power to overthrow capitalism, but these are not the miners' unions in your country or mine.

As such, the main purpose they have is to fight against job loss and the destruction of the industry. lt has to be remembered that a large part of the problems of the coal industry is not connected to any drop in demand, but other factors, including the capitalist business model.

The fights of coal miners therefore have a normal basis - the economic and physical survival of the worker. Do the miners have more bargaining power than other workers? Here they tend to and l suppose in your country too. So is it "fair" that they get more help than other workers whose companies fire them? No, it is not "fair" that some workers have more bargaining power than others, just as it is not fair that some workers work for slave wages and others have a better time. But this situation is not the fault of any worker - it is a structural problem of capitalism.

Further to the ideological slant you put in your comment, this is what we expect from the neo-liberal establishment. lt is in their interest to divide the working class. Here we read a lot about "priveleges" of certain categories of workers, who have managed to fight better than others or are in a stronger position. A lot of people, l suppose yourself included, just get twisted in this logic of blaming the workers in a stronger position. And thinking that this is "unfair" in a way that begrudges those in the better position instead of demanding that all workers be treated better.

So my personal point of view is that your ideas are poisoned by the capitalists at the same time you are criticizing people for not being anti-capitalist. No, the struggle is not anti-capitalist, but about their position of workers. But your analysis is far from anti-capitalist itself.

These workers are alied with the coal miners in the north of the country who surface mine brown coal, and the ones in the south promis to do a big strike if the black coal mine is shut down.

Ditto to everything else that's been said, but just to say this ^^^ is fucking awesome.

It may not be "revolutionary", but it's a level of active solidarity we rarely see in Europe or America. And it's these sort of actions - solidarity strikes in key industries - that could pave the way for the development of revolutionary consciousness and revolutionary struggles.

Would it be even better if those same miners had the same level of solidarity with book shop workers? Of course. But we don't build to that level of solidarity across industries by criticizing where it exists within industries (obviously).

Also, "golden parachute"? You're comparing the millions - sometimes tens or hundreds of millions - departing CEO's get to a better severance package for coal miners?!? And it's not even correct, I mean, they're striking so they don't lose their jobs, right?

What about the stories of gravediggers during the winter of discontent? Should there be a point where workers say enough is enough re. pay?

Every strike is about more than pay though, isn't it? It's about power on the job and, in the WOD particularly, about class power.

My general feeling, is that the coal miners power over electricity production is a kind of capital, and that these coal miners are exploiting it just as any other capitalist would. They want these gifts from the government, not because they work hard, but because they are alied to people who can cause the governemnt big problems. What is libcom's take on the situation?

Straight up Thatcherism, as spoken by a member of the rentier class. Steven. you missed a chance for a "gtfo." Tsk.Tsk.

Timthehousecat at it again, pretending Ayn Randism can be camouflaged by pretending to be "anti-power," anti-state, anti-anything.

Also, come to think of it, straight-up Jaruzelski-ism, who confronted the coal-miners in Poland who had objections to working 7 days a week in mines.

Of course, that makes sense, since Thatcher and Jaruzelski exported coal to each other's country to break those miners' strikes.

Hey Tim, tell you what, give up your rental income and go work in the mines. Tell me then about how miners have too much power, and shouldn't strike. Or strike in solidarity. How they should, after they've been worked to death, be positively demure. You go down there, admin: no flaming , and tell us what it's like to have "too much power."

wojtek

What about the stories of gravediggers during the winter of discontent? Should there be a point where workers say enough is enough re. pay?

No.

Wojtek #8
‘What about the stories of gravediggers during the winter of discontent? Should there be a point where workers say enough is enough re. pay?’

There was a reason Thatcher made sympathy strikes illegal in the UK. Certain categories of work make striking problematical - gravediggers, care-workers, hospital workers, etc. There were instances in the past when workers stood together. The only solution in the long term is for the stronger sections of the working class to take up their case and when invited, be actively involved.

EDIT
I used to visit an old lady in a home for Alzheimer’s sufferers. The care given to the residents was impressive, though the careers monetary reward was pitiful. When I was there I’d sometimes help at meal times. In this situation to withdraw their labour would be to sentence some of these sad people to starvation.

wojtek

What about the stories of gravediggers during the winter of discontent? Should there be a point where workers say enough is enough re. pay?

what do you mean by this? Gravediggers got rubbish pay, and their pay was being slashed by inflation running at nearly 30% and a Labour/TUC agreed 5% pay cap.

(Even if they got paid 60 grand a year I would still support them striking for more pay: we, the working class, deserve the whole world)

About the winter of discontent, this is a good overview: https://libcom.org/history/1978-1979-winter-of-discontent

They left bodies unburied which seems disrespectful. I guess I'm more arguing over tactics.

wojtek

They left bodies unburied which seems disrespectful. I guess I'm more arguing over tactics.

I care more about the living, personally

edited to add: any gravediggers/crematorium workers feel free to go on strike whenever you like after I'm dead. A good tactic I reckon would be dumping my festering corpse in front of the boss's house

Steven, that is not right, the dead no nothing, the disrespect is to the next of kin.

tssk, miners causing problems. Where will it all end, eh?

Tim are you sure you're not against them because of the ecological profile of coal?

Given this is a solidarity strike, I feel like you sort of undermined your own argument in that second paragraph, Tim.

Tim, I'd also suggest you check out the awesome fucking solidarity the UK miners offered during the Grunwick Strike.

And the occasions when UK miners came out for nurses. Tim, you've not quite grasped the whole class struggle malarkey.

timthelion

Several thousand Slovak school teachers did a 6 week long wildcat strike at the beginning of the school year. It had no effect. The government simply didn't care.

I don't think this is correct. There will be a 6% increase in teachers' statutory wages in September. Yes, it's far less than they demanded, but still, it's uncommon for increases like this to happen during the year. It wouldn't have happened without the strike.

My general feeling, is that the coal miners power over electricity production is a kind of capital, and that these coal miners are exploiting it just as any other capitalist would. They want these gifts from the government, not because they work hard, but because they are alied to people who can cause the governemnt big problems. What is libcom's take on the situation?

1) No, that simply isn't what capital means, if the miners clubbed together, pooled their wage packets and savings and invested in the mining then threatened to pull out, then this would be an example of a capital strike. They are withdrawing their labour power, from those who purchased it via wages.

You have a very awful habit of using words when you don't actually know what they mean, like our Feudalism and slavery chat.

2) A capitalists power is not their labour capabilities but their, capital (hence the term) their property.

3) How exactly do you know why the miners want what they claim? Unless you can read minds or have uncovered secret Union memoranda this is just meaningless assumptions.

4) Also how would this count as "gifts" if its based on these miners continuing to work. A gift is free and requires no action on the part of the receiver. I don't think you understand what a gift is either.

wojtek

They left bodies unburied which seems disrespectful. I guess I'm more arguing over tactics.

Yeah but the bodies were kept in cold storage so at worst they delayed a couple hundred funerals. That's a pain in the arse and not what you'd want on top of everything else if burying a loved one, but its hardly a desecration.

Well at first they were striking so as to not lose their jobs, but they are now receiving money from the GOVERNMENT, not from the capitalists who own the mine

And? They're still working under a capitalist relationship, what about this changes anything?

I feel that the general strategy of our Czech government is to hush up those who cause problems. I fear that if the miners are satisfied with their government money, than they WON'T help the bookshop workers (or whoever's next). You know the old, "if I'm happy, than what's the problem?" attitude. It is this disballance in power that makes me feel weird about this. It's like "to each according to their ability to cause problems" rather than "to each according to their needs

This was just more of your revolution is impossible unless the workers are all starving nonsense from this thread isn't it.