Migrants & sexual violence

Having read Kingzog's posts recently and not so recently, it is abundantly clear that they have an abysmal grasp of gender and sexual politics and would probably do well by getting better educated, try listening to people who have actual direct experience and stop getting information from such credible sources as the Daily Mail. ffs, using an epidemic of rape by migrants manufactured by the reactionary media to make some really shit point about immigration. How about listening to people who actually live in the parts of Europe that you are referencing to make some dodgy racist argument?

Everyone knows rape is a serious issue in the US. But in Sweden, before mass imigratio. In 70's it was very low. Europe has always had far far less crime, violent crime than the US. So to compare the US to Europe and say "well now they're just at our level now" isn't really much of an argument.

Rape in Sweden has increased by 1400% since the 70's. The UN has admitted that up to 80% of migrants are young men. Look it up. You all have Google. This is not "made up" by the media simply because you don't agree with the media sources doesn't disappear the numbers of women who report this stuff. Look up how many women report these crimes in Germany alone. It's abnormal for their society- less so, admittedly, for the US unfortunately.

And no, it's not "patriarchical" to be worried about ones child being raped- or for their safety in general. Rape is not "sexual activity" as Gram Negative wrote. I mean what sort of sick and twisted logic is that?

Does this reality give license to exact revenge on all migrants? Of course not, I don't believe that at all. Does this mean we ban all muslims? I never said that. I'm just offering some reality to people with their heads in the sand. Just look up the Cologne rapes and rapes in Sweden, also sexual assault in general. Youd have to totally be in denial to...well, deny this.

Kingzog, I don't know where to start, but I'll go for just this one sentence for now.

Rape in Sweden has increased by 1400% since the 70's

Wikipedia:

The Swedish police record each instance of sexual violence in every case separately, leading to an inflated number of cases compared to other countries.Sweden also has a comparatively wide definition of rape. This means that more sexual crimes are registered as rape than in most other countries For example, in 2005 Sweden reformed its sex crime legislation and made the legal definition of rape much wider, which led to a marked increase in reports.

Additionally, the Swedish police have improved the handling of rape cases, in an effort to decrease the number of unreported cases. For this reason, large-scale victimisation surveys have been presented by criminologists as a more reliable indicator of rape prevalence.An EU-wide survey on sexual violence against women, published the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA) in 2014, showed Sweden was only third highest, below Denmark and Finland and a previous assessment by Brå have placed Sweden at an average level among European nations.

According to the FRA study there's a strong correlation between higher levels of gender equality and disclosure of sexual violence. This, and a greater willingness among Swedish women to report rape in relationships, may also explain the relatively high rates of reported rape in Sweden, which has a long-standing tradition of gender equality policy and legislation, as well as an established women's movement, and has been ranked as the number one country in sex equality

commieprincess:

Kingzog, I don't know where to start

Are you absolutely sure you want to go down the route with arguing with this guy? I'm not trying to dissuade you but I have a feeling that nothing good will come of it.

As far as no-go zones in sweden, it's not laughable at all. Unless you think it's a conspiracy? Look at the graphs and statistics from here:

http://fof.se/tidning/2015/5/artikel/darfor-okar-de-kriminella-gangens-makt

Maybe these stats are fake? Maybe all the people collecting them, the reporters, cops, social workers, and so on are together in this conspiracy to make up crime. But it's not hard to see this as true. These immigrants turn to crime because they have no skills and Sweden is a society which require a high degree of education and skill to find a job and even then, it's a tight market. So they form organized crime gangs. In Sicily, they are competing with the Mafia BTW, and it's getting bloody.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546081/Mafia-declares-WAR-migrants-Sicilian-gangster-shoots-innocent-Gambian-head-amid-soaring-levels-migration-Italy-mayor-saying-Sicily-s-capital-no-longer-European.html

But, sure, don't believe any of it, not even the photographs because it's reported by the daily mail. Well, what I see here is that they love this stuff because it happens to fit their worldview- right or wrong. But it doesn't fit the liberal media's worldview, so they ignore it or excuse it- as you all have been doing here. Effectively, this cedes the high ground to the right as they are the only ones addressing it.

These reports are just that, reports. If these stories were more along the lines of that rape hoax in the Rolling Stone, format wise, I might question them a bit more.

Yup, Kingzog's gone full reactionary neo-conservative on this one. This sort of argumentation is what Anders Behring Breivik spouted in his manifesto.

The Rolling Stone debacle was a case of Rolling Stone fucking up and imagining they could go to print without verifying sources to a standard of proof they could demonstrate without opening themselves up to threat of libel, something they could never do as a journalism piece and something they did for the sake of a shocking story. As for it being a hoax, it may have been. On the other hand it can also be interpreted as how difficult it is to cover such stories. Survivors almost never give a textbook coherent account and it's one of the reasons why convictions are so hard to get in court. Rolling Stone had no option legally other than retract the story and if it was a case of bad journalism they threw a woman under the bus to cover their asses. But there again we've covered all this in all the why are women so whiney about rape and so pathetic victims that they need trigger warnings and safe spaces threads which went down on here last year, threads that this poster participated in. Makes it kind of ironic that he's now using rape as a mechanism to get his racist point across.

Edit: As Juan said:

And then to try to pass off this naked xenophobia as some sort of feminism is outrageously offensive. You are no feminist.

so, you may dismiss the interpretations of swedeb's rape rate, though you do not offer any counter-explanation that makes sense. what hierarchically organized state has looked the over way to downplay the actions of a low-status, minority group in such a situation. what is the conspiracy?

also, you should really look at the homicide/murder rate, which has much more commonality amongst states (for a variety of reasons). i used that google thingy you mentioned and found this website https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/crime-statistics/reported-offences.html which seems to be some office of the swedish state committed to crime prevention. if you look at the stats it is true that what they call sexual offences and rapes hve increased per 100000, but the increase closely tracks the 2005 redefinitions. the murder rate per 100000 has hovered around 2 for almost 40 years! none of your extraordinary are backed up by the evidence.

that daily mail article is hilarious - did you even read it? the man who was shot is a Gambian immigrant, and has nothing to do with gangs - i guess we can thank the naturally less bloodthirsty tendencies of the european shooter for somehow missing any vital organs after shooting him in the head. what is your point with that article? would brutal violence perpetrated by mini state rackets like the mafia be better if the face that is shaking you down is fair?

aren't you american? wasn't this same shit said about the southern euorpeans, including sicilian immigrants to the US? new jersey is filled with no-go zones

if you think of the daily mail as fascist propaganda you should have a more or less accurate view of there coverage of anything involving immigrants

What should we westerners do about this? We are clearly dealing with a patriarchal civilization that does not respect our women or our children. Of course kingzog is not supporting wholesale exclusion of these criminals, that would be too easy a view to take. But the problem is there and our liberal society does not want to face it. We have to do something, as kingzog is rightly pointing out. These young men who are becoming criminals in our civilization, and corrupting it with its barbaric culture, need to be dealt with somehow. But kingzog also believes in helping the migrants, because like the jihadists these criminals are holding the rest of the migrant community hostage. I wonder how we'll be able to separate out the chaff and keep the west safe from this invasion.

well we could start by burning the mail to the ground I suppose

The Pigeon

our women

....lol

I'm merely flushing out kingzog's posts. All he seems to be saying is there is a victimized West being invaded by a lustful, patriarchal culture that "we" have to face up to, as if european governments, and every other government, were ours.

You do know that this has been a consistent theme, them foreigners, coming over here, taking our jobs, or not taking our jobs and scrounging off us, living like (fill in whatever people don't like,) not fitting in, with their foreign languages and their strange ways, stealing our women, leading our children astray, not looking like us, blah, blah, blahdy blah, since probably the romans?

lustful, patriarchal culture

You're drunk posting, aren't you?

No I'm pointing out king zog's central idea here, for some reason this 'foreign' community has to be confronted by radicals for their macho behavior, not as individuals (like radicals actually do) but as a racial community. Where this macho behavior apparently pervades their culture and results in "our" need to prevent "them" from sexually victimizing women and children. Yeah sorry I was being ironic.

Fleur

You do know that this has been a consistent theme, them foreigners, coming over here, taking our jobs, or not taking our jobs and scrounging off us, living like (fill in whatever people don't like,) not fitting in, with their foreign languages and their strange ways, stealing our women, leading our children astray, not looking like us, blah, blah, blahdy blah, since probably the romans?

lustful, patriarchal culture

You're drunk posting, aren't you?

This is very true. Around when the daily mail was running it's red scare stories on miliband's dad, a number of old front pages (from 30's or 40's) were put online (showing the proprietor 's pro nazism), there were articles regarding Jewish immigrants and if you replaced Jewish immigrant for Islamic/romanian/Syrian /afghan... It was practically word for word current anti immigrant daily mail scare stories.

So, I literally can't believe what I'm reading here.. I've not read a lot of kingzog's links on Sweden but thought I'd comment on this one about Sicily since I know a bit more about it..
kingzog

In Sicily, they are competing with the Mafia BTW, and it's getting bloody.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546081/Mafia-declares-WAR-migrants-Sicilian-gangster-shoots-innocent-Gambian-head-amid-soaring-levels-migration-Italy-mayor-saying-Sicily-s-capital-no-longer-European.html

But, sure, don't believe any of it, not even the photographs because it's reported by the daily mail.

Firstly, the link itself doesn't say the thing you (or they tbh) are claiming.. I mean first they say the Mafia are "desperate to maintain supremacy after African crime gangs arrived with the migrants - and they are engaged in a deadly turf war" then immediately say "An innocent Gambian man was shot through the head by an assassin".

So this guy, a Gambian student unconnected with criminal activity (as the Daily Mail article says), was shot by a gangster after an argument with some racists. So your point about not believing "even the photographs" makes no sense because the photographs have nothing to do with African gangs.

Secondly, this isn't to say there aren't African gangs in Sicily but the claim they're "competing with the Mafia" is as untrue as it is unimportant (I mean, say they were competing, would you support the Mafia? Is there a 'proletarian' choice of organised crime group?). This article talks about African gangs in Sicily but there with Mafia approval. Now it's not inconceivable that these gangs would sometimes have conflicts with other local Mafia outfits but this happens between different groups of Italian mafiosi anyway so it's hardly a new problem particular to migrants.

kingzog more or less

"Keep the black economy white!"
"Italian Jobs for Italian Mafiosi!"

Just wanted to add something real quick re:Sweden though it's mostly repetitive of what's already been said. The police/media/ideological background to 'no go areas' has already been made but just wanted to point out that two areas on the police list, Majorna in Gothenburg and Bagarmossen in Stockholm are formerly working class now middle class, lefty, hipster type neighbourhoods, you know the type I'm talking about.

And as for the rape statistics, that's also already been dealt with, so just repeating the same, but it's to do with the wider definition and the higher rate of reporting which has social, cultural, historical and political reasons behind it not least of which is the strength and size of the Swedish feminist movement. But the non reporting of sexual assault is a basic for any discussion around it. Kingzog's going off on one.

Leaving the polemics aside, I'm very interested in this topic, especially as it screens against the history of population movements through Europe and the periphery.

Can anybody recommend reliable, balanced sources, reporting and/or analysis, on immigration patterns and shifting demographics over the course of the last two decades? I can read German.

It's worth pointing out that if someone wants to raise the issue of patriarchal attitudes and practices in Middle Eastern/North African communities (which is a genuine problem), then unironically invoking the language of protecting "our women" is a sure sign for us not to take you seriously at all.

I think it's ridiculous to deny that this isn't a n issue.

You may not like a source, but that doesn't mean they are a priori wrong. That's a total fallacy.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7557/germany-rape-migrants-crisis

Here is a fairly comprehensive list of the sexual assaults. It contains references and links to source materials. Do you think this is normal for western Europe? Rape by starngers in public? Idk. I don't think it is, even if some reports are exxagerated, it's still outside what's normal. It should be an issue at the very least and not ignored!

My point, the whole time, has been that if the left doesn't respond to this- and I have no idea what an appropriate response would be, preferably one that can simultaneously protect innocent migrants- than the right will swoop in and capitalize on it all, in which case, we're all fucked.

If the left responds, it can take the wind out of the sails of the right. Even just acknowledging it. Definitely not telling women to cover up or be modest, as the politicians in Cologne did, however, that is like a gift to the right.

And can anyone deny, with a straight face, that North African and Mid Eastern societies are less patriarchical than western Europe? That women have the same status there? That they face no more abuse?

Here is an excerpt from that article:

"Left: At least 30 male migrants assaulted three girls (aged 15, 16 and 17) at the Sophienhof mall in Kiel, Germany, on February 25. Only two of the men were arrested by police. Right: In the first two months of this year alone, there have been dozens of reported cases of migrants sexually assaulting women and children at public swimming pools across Germany. In some areas, authorities have distributed cartoon guides, to "educate" migrants that sexual assault is not acceptable"

If it wasn't an issue, why would they be making these "guides"?

Here is some more, allof these are linked to primary sources":

January 19. A 17-year-old Eritrean migrant attempted to rape an 18-year-old woman in a parking garage in Bad Oldesloe. After police intervened, the man head-butted an officer, who was hospitalized.

January 20. Migrants invaded female showers and changing rooms at two public swimming pools in Leipzig.

January 21. A "black skinned" (schwarz glänzende Hautfarbe) man attempted to rape a 13-year-old girl in Langenfeld. Two migrants assaulted an 18-year-old woman in Dingolfing.

January 22. A migrant (südländisches Äußeres) attempted to rape a 16-year-old girl in Feuerbach district of Stuttgart, and in downtown Stuttgart, four "Arabic looking" (arabisches Aussehen) men sexually assaulted a 23-year-old woman. Migrants harassed women at public swimming pools in Zwickau.

January 23. Migrants sexually assaulted two 11-year-old girls at a public swimming pool in Wilhelmshaven. Two asylum seekers from Afghanistan assaulted two 17-year-old women at a public swimming pool in Straubing. Three 16-year-old migrants from Afghanistan and Syria assaulted two 13-year-old girls at a public swimming pool in Hachenburg.

Also on January 23, a 35-year-old migrant sexually assaulted a woman in a restroom on a train in Düsseldorf. A 22-year-old Syrian migrant exposed himself on a train in Hanover. An 18-year-old Syrian asylum seeker raped a 17-year-old woman in Straubing. Two unidentified men sexually assaulted an 18-year-old woman in Wiesbaden.

You have to Google translate the primary sources, but they are legit

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7557/germany-rape-migrants-crisis

I don't want to get morally indigent, but shame on you guys for turning a blind eye; you're better than this comrades. Don't let political correctness(and dogmatism, quite frankly) destroy your reason and common sense. Entertain, for one minute, that this may indeed be a problem, that this crisis is real and that the well being of these women and girls does matter just as much as any of the migrants, as much as any other human being- imagine if you indeed were a parent of one of these girls! Don't dismiss this shit out of hand based on your own prejudices- and don't deny that the left doesn't have its own unique prejudices, they do.

you don't realize what issue is, do you? it's not that we are dogmatists, it is that you want to engage in collective punishment. for some reason all migrants are guilty of the actions of individuals, yet that same logic is not applied to sexual assaults carried out by americans or germans or whichever european national. so, migrants as a whole must then be treated differently as a set - how is that libertarian? also, you do realize that if a migrant was originally from syria, that sending them back is way worse of a punishment than any european would get?

"arab-looking"? really? you do know that you can be "arab-looking" and be german, right?

instead of focusing on the "migrant" aspect (beisdes the fact that most migrants are women and children) why not focus on the patriarchy aspect? why is the call for collective punishment, rather than measures to deal with patriarchy and sexual assault?

What about migrant women and children? Or those back in the perpetators' home countries?
The template nationalist solution is not holistic and is inadequate.

There's are threads on here about berlin, rotherham.

regarding the first story you quote above: http://m.dw.com/en/the-sophienhof-case-in-kiel-a-chronology-of-a-hysterical-story/a-19093921

before you say i condone what did happen, or i am victim blaming - i am not. the photography and filming of women without consent is wrong. however, only 2 men were involved, and nothing physical happened, which is much different than the source you quote. what you have here is an example of right wing media jumping on a story and then twisting it to suit their ends.

Why is kingzog's racist shit being allowed a platform here? It's remarkable how little interest they have in sexual assault when it's committed by white Germans and in formulating some sort of collective response to dealing with "the white German community" that one would think is implicated in such assaults if kingzog's logic were to hold. Really vile stuff--would this even be getting serious treatment if a poster posted a bunch of articles about sexual assaults committed by Jews and used this to make a case about the serious Jewish problem being ignored by those PC types?

Kingzog appears to be following in the proud legacy of feminism being aped for racist purposes, a practice with a strong historical resonance in my own country where talk of protecting white women from the supposed sexually violent predilections of black men toward them was used to spur on countless lynch mobs.

Yup, Kingzog should really just leave this site in shame. Fucking racist.

Kingzog appears to be following in the proud legacy of feminism being aped for racist purposes, a practice with a strong historical resonance in my own county where talk of protecting white women from the supposed sexually violent predilections of black men toward them was used to spur on countless lynch mobs.

Yeah, Kingzog should just stop using sexual assault to advance his ignorant racist agenda. It's just fucking offensive.

Just want to mention that the Crimethinc website has an excellent article posted a few months back addressing this very topic in a way that neither ignores nor minimizes sexual violence, nor plays into the racist themes typically used by nationalists and capitalists to demonize refugees and their supporters on the left.

Europe: Between Rape and Racism

Just got round to reading this thread now, absolutely unbelievable. So turns out King Zog is actually just a racist piece of shit. Not only that, but is actually an idiot as well.

He doesn't seem to understand that cherry picking a few individual news articles doesn't constitute data about which you can make generalisations about huge chunks of the world's population.

What makes it worse is that he is trying to make the argument that migrants disproportionately commit sexual assault, but actually hasn't managed to find a shred of evidence supporting that. And worse, a bunch of the articles he has posted don't even have anything to do with that: like that one about an innocent Gambian student who was murdered by a white Italian gangster. Or the Rotherham sexual abuse cases, which weren't carried out by "migrants", but were carried out by a group of British Asians with the collaboration of the mostly white police and social services.

And as for the "Rape in Sweden" Wikipedia entry (great source BTW, almost as good as the Mail), it also doesn't have any evidence supporting his claim, as it doesn't say how many rapes were carried out by migrants. It does have a bit of info about convictions and charges for rape, however as there were only 190 convictions out of 6700 rapes, this data is pretty meaningless. And also of course an immigrant raping a stranger is much easier to convict than a native raping someone they know (which are the vast majority of sexual assaults), so of course would be more likely to be convicted - also they may be more likely to be charged or convicted due to race discrimination (see for example historical rape cases in the American deep South). That's not to mention the fact that 80% go unreported in Sweden, and in that sort of case reporting may also be more likely as the survivor may feel more likely to be believed (which is of course a key factor in whether assaults are reported).

I hope it's obvious to anyone who isn't a Daily Mail reader or Trump supporter, but I could Google for 5 min and find far more examples of sexual assault by white non-migrants. Hell, just one link about Jimmy Savile would count for more actual assaults than pretty much every other link King Zog managed to find, as he abused so many women and girls. UK posters will also probably remember the case of John Worboys, the black cab driver who raped up to 100 or more women: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10667340/100-victims-could-sue-in-black-cab-rapist-John-Worboys-case.html (and before King Zog starts getting excited: in the UK black cabs means official taxis. He is white). And that's not to mention the thousands of people abused by white catholic priests…

Finally, I think it should be a new rule on the internet, like Godwins law, that if anyone mentions "no-go zones" it means they have lost the argument and have no idea what they are talking about (I say that as a Londoner living in the centre of one of our so-called "no-go zones" according to Fox News, the Daily Mail and Anders Brevik, who also lives within 500 meters of four strip clubs, two gay bars, about 30 pubs and bars, at least one synagogue…)

There is nothing racist about the truth. It is what it is. I provided loads of examples of sexual violence by migrants and other Muslims. You can ignore it and claim it's "cherry picking" all you want, but the examples are legion- and growing every day it seems.

The Rotherham scandal was relevant, btw, because the perpetrators were Pakistani, not "British Asians," and the police and Council Estate people's involvement was that they covered it up because they were afraid of being accused of racism for exposing it. It's the exact same mentality here on Libcom; a mentality that puts people in danger by suppressing the truth out of cowardice and ideological dogmatism. It's unfortunate, but these people come from societies steeped in rape culture. we shouldn't excuse them simply because of their national origin, there is simply no excuse for what these people call "Taharroush"

(http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.2374/german-police-it-s-an-arab-rape-game-called-taharrush-and-now-it-has-come-to-europe.html)

Look here, yet another mass sexual assault incident(Taharroush) in Germany. 26 women attacked. the perpetrators,the ones arrested so far, are of Pakistani origin. It is racist to say that this is a serious problem? Is it racist to be vehemently against rape and rape culture? Isn't "the left" supposed to be on the front line against misogyny and oppression of women? Or are we only against it when it suits us? Grow up people.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/01/europe/germany-concert-sex-assaults/

sexual assaults at concerts has been an issue for a long time: http://www.mtv.com/news/516319/two-woodstock-fans-allegedly-raped-in-mosh-pits/

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/07/30/3465695/a-girl-was-sexual-assaulted-at-a-keith-urban-concert-and-people-watched-and-took-videos/

and there are countless more examples., which has nothing to do with the migration status of the perpetrator so, yes, it is racist to insist that these assaults are happening because of an influx of migrants, rather than the issue being patriarchical behavior in general

Ahmet Muhtar

There is nothing racist about the truth. It is what it is. I provided loads of examples of sexual violence by migrants and other Muslims. You can ignore it and claim it's "cherry picking" all you want, but the examples are legion- and growing every day it seems.

The Rotherham scandal was relevant, btw, because the perpetrators were Pakistani, not "British Asians," and the police and Council Estate people's involvement was that they covered it up because they were afraid of being accused of racism for exposing it.

According to the victims that's not actually true, they say the police ignored their compliants because they were in on it.

Look even the Daily Mail's reporting it

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3463517/Police-took-Rotherham-child-sex-abuse-ignored-pleas-victims-claimed-IPCC-watchdog-says-probing-194-complaints-scandal.html

Some are even claimed to have been part of the paedophile sex ring.

Victims say at least one constable molested girls. Others are said to have tipped off the grooming gang's gun-toting ringmasters as to when their South Yorkshire colleagues were closing in.

Oh and many of the victims were "cared for" by the Macgregor's who actively worked with the sex ring.

The men were given access to their victims by trusted local foster carer Karen MacGregor, 58, and Shelley Davies, 40.

MacGregor took in girls - all of whom were white - from children's homes in the area, offering them a safe and comfortable living environment in her 'Hansel and Gretal house'.

But once they were in she pimped them out as prostitutes, making them 'earn their keep' by having sex with a succession of men who were often double their age.

The women, along with the brothers' uncle, Qurban Ali, 53, were all found guilty of child sex offences. They will be sentenced at Sheffield Crown Court tomorrow.

Yeah its funny how most people reposting links to Rotherham leave out the allegations against the police from the victims and that two of the convicted were white females.

So what we have in Rotherham is an ethnic and gender mixed web of predators exploiting vulnerable young girls for profit, with connections to several Coppers. Yeah I'm sure its all PC gone mad.

Your racist narrative is wrong and if you had a shred of decency you would stop misrepresenting it to score points on the internet.

Ahmet Muhtar

The Rotherham scandal was relevant, btw, because the perpetrators were Pakistani, not "British Asians,"

Afaics the convicted were all British citizens, although there's been talk of stripping them of citizenship and deporting them to Pakistan. Two white British women were also convicted (but I guess that doesn't fit the 'Muslims coming over here and raping our women' meme).

Ahmet Muhtar

...and the police and Council Estate people's involvement was that they covered it up because they were afraid of being accused of racism for exposing it.

This is also false. According to the Rotherham Inquiry:

Rotherham Inquiry

Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so.

That is, they were reluctant to talk about "Asian rapists" as opposed to "rapists". One example the report cites (p.92) is that staff were trained not to refer to ethnic identities of perpetrators. This is good practice, and fairly standard across the public sector afaik, and has nothing to do with cover-ups.

On the claim that the police didn't investigate because they feared being called racists:

Rotherham Inquiry

[Dr Heal] also reported in 2006 that young people in Rotherham believed at that time that the Police dared not act against Asian youths for fear of allegations of racism. This perception was echoed at the present time by some young people we met during the Inquiry, but was not supported by specific examples.

I.e. this was an explanation offered by "young people in Rotherham" to explain the police's lack of interest, but the inquiry couldn't find any examples of this happening. The findings about this (p.91) are interesting - the over-reliance on (patriarchal) 'community leaders' seems to have disenfranchised Asian women, for instance. However, it "found no evidence of children’s social care staff being influenced by concerns about the ethnic origins of suspected perpetrators when dealing with individual child protection cases, including CSE."

Aside from it being highly unlikely that the institutionally racist British police refuse to arrest ethnic minorities (e.g. see: incarceration stats), information came out during the trial that South Yorkshire Police officers were passing information and drugs to the gang, and that an officer had taken part in abuse. This corrupt relationship with drug-dealing, abusive gangsters seems a more likely motive for cover-up (it's currently under IPCC investigation).

And bear in mind this is the same South Yorks police responsible for Hillsborough and Orgreave, which they've continued to cover up (e.g. hiring a spin doctor to discredit Liverpool fans during the Hillsborough inquests). It's a force with some of the most egregious and well-documented corruption, cover-ups and collusions in all sorts of shit.

Ahmet Muhtar

It's unfortunate, but these people come from societies steeped in rape culture. we shouldn't excuse them simply because of their national origin

In this case, Britain. And literally nobody is excusing it.

Ahmet Muhtar

(http://speisa BROKEN .com/modules/articles/index.php/item.2374/german-police-it-s-an-arab-rape-game-called-taharrush-and-now-it-has-come-to-europe.html)

Pakistanis aren't Arabs, but they all look the same amirite?

Incidentally, I hadn't heard of this source so I googled it, and it's a newish site that's been accused of running fake stories as clickbait - albeit by bloggers. Edit: The phenomenon seems to be Egyptian, fwiw.

And to reiterate, feminists are organising against sexual violence regardless of who the perpetrators are (e.g. Aus Nahmslos in Germany, Sisters Uncut defending for specialist DV services in UK...), but as usual their voices are being ignored so that abuse canbe instrumentalised to serve other agendas, like this fash clash of civilisations shit.

funny how some people will go on endlessly about cases of sexual assaults/rapes by brown men, and claim this is a reason to restrict immigrants, but say nothing about men who actual travel to other countries to abuse children

eg
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/01/richard-huckle-kent-photographer-faces-multiple-life-sentences-malaysian-child-abuse

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/texas-christian-missionary-pleads-guilty-to-sexual-abusing-at-least-5-orphans-in-malawi/

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2016/may-web-only/missionary-donn-ketcham-abuse-bangladesh-mks-abwe-report.html

and theres so many case of white men grooming children in the uk i had to give up finding cases i remember that are like Rotherham but the perpetrates where white

I suspected that it was kingzog coming back with this nonsense. Interesting that he chose that user name...

Obv glad he's been banned but am actually quite glad he came back briefly as I think Reddebrek's and Joseph Kay's last two comments have been particularly insightful in terms of laying out just how stupid those opinions..

radicalgraffiti

funny how some people will go on endlessly about cases of sexual assaults/rapes by brown men, and claim this is a reason to restrict immigrants, but say nothing about men who actual travel to other countries to abuse children

Yeah, or all the frat house rapes on American uni campuses.. or the Steubenville High School rape case, which basically involved a whole school covering up a (filmed and shared on social media) gang rape for the benefit of their football team.. but obviously no one says 'lets ban American students from the UK'..

Yeah, King Zog/Ahmet Muhtar's views are abhorrent, but I'm also glad he came back because of the excellent responses above.

Also it is funny to see how he continues to show himself as an absolute idiot. Apart from still thinking that anecdotes equal evidence, this is quality:
Ahmet Muhtar

The Rotherham scandal was relevant, btw, because the perpetrators were Pakistani, not "British Asians,"

In UK British Asians get referred to as Pakistani, Bengali, Indian etc based on their family descent, not their nationality. Being that ignorant is like an English person thinking "African-American" means someone with dual American and African citizenship.

But then I guess thinking that Pakistanis are Arabs is pretty damn ignorant as well.

and the police and Council Estate people's involvement was that they covered it up because they were afraid of being accused of racism for exposing it

As people have pointed out, this is absolute nonsense. Police covered up because some of them were involved and paid off by the criminal gangs who perpetrated the abuse, but more generally law enforcement saw this type of abuse as "SOS": Scum on Scum, because of who the victims were (troubled young girls in care).

"Council Estate people" doesn't make any sense, I'm assuming he means social services. But again the allegation that they didn't expose it for fears of racism allegations is something that was made up by the Express and the Mail. The reasons for social services not acting are more complicated, but was partly due to the "SOS" factor, and partly to do with workers feeling or believing young people that these abusers were actually "boyfriends", rather than abusers (thankfully there has been a real seachange in how social workers view child sexual exploitation since this scandal). Some workers didn't specifically mention the ethnicities of the abusers: this is the factor which the media picked on. But it had nothing to do with the reason why the abuse wasn't challenged.

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Tim, please remind me, why is it you are posting on a site called libcom?

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timthelion

@Steven OK, I'll go then. But are you actually going to respond to what I wrote and tell me what you think is wrong with it?

How about the part were you make all the same ridiculous assumptions (including anecdotes) Kingzog did?

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That is simply not a scene that exists outside of an imigrant context.

You fucking kidding me? Only immigrants sexually harass women & girls? Having read all your posts timthelionland is a weird and fucked up world, a mixture of fantasy, ignorance and utter cluelessness.

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timthelion

So I definitely feel that immigrants need some guidance in adjusting, if they've come from a horrible fucked up country.

What about English sex tourists and paedophiles in Thailand and the Far East? Is England a "horrible fucked up country", or are those countries where mostly non-white people live?

timthelion

@ Reddebrek I shared my personal experience. Yes, it is anecdotal, not statistical but I was simply sharing what I had experienced. These aren't randomly chosen articles from internet news, its a chapter of my life. And this was a chapter which is defined by things happening that were specific to an imigrant dense context. I'm sorry if my life experiences are offensive to you, but that doesn't make my experience less real.

I'm not really bothered about your experiences, I find the conclusions you've drawn from them offensive and on the level of King Zog. Your obliviousness is disappointing but not really surprising.

What you've done is recite a grab bag of times you meet people different from you acting in deplorable ways. But rather than come to the conclusion that gang members and creepy sex tourists are bad you seem to have fixed on their different national origin from you.

Kingzog made the same point about gang's and it was dealt with, other users have dealt with sexual tourism too. You've not brought anything new and your commentary is riddled with chauvinistic bollocks about how migrants need to understand that the Czech Republic(and Europe) is a civilised nation. Even though the national groups you've mentioned all come from nations were the acts you've described are strictly prohibited.

You've told us some tales then came to some strange conclusions, but you haven't actually connected them. The actions of some migrants do not reflect on them as group but that is exactly what you've done. Georgians wrecked a pub? must be Georgian culture to blame. A Kyrgyz gang boss assaulted a man, must be his inability to integrate into Czech culture, (even though he clearly knew it wasn't okay to do if he used his connections to escape punishment). So on, and so on.

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timthelion

At one point I was walking through the town where the school for foreigners was and I saw a group of Saudis walking about 10m behind a pair of girls. The Saudis were wistling and wispering among eachother. I asked them what they were doing, and they said that they were watching the girls asses because the girls were hot and they wanted to masturbate later. That is simply not a scene that exists outside of an imigrant context. It doesn't exist in Saudi Arabia, as all women are covered, and it doesn't normally exist here either. It is a phenomenon which is specific to people who are away from their normal culture. What would you do in such a situation?

Do you really expect us to believe this actually happened?

And oh my word this totally exists in pretty much every context. I think basically every teenage boy ever has done this.

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Wouldn't it be nice if people stopped using sexual violence as a metaphor or as a means to advance other agendas, in this case the anti-immigration/racist asshole argument?

Yes, good idea.

jef costello

I think basically every teenage boy ever has done this.

I didn't.

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jef, if it's so unremarkable why don't you believe Saudis can act in the same manner.

Timthelandlord said:

I'm not racist but....

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timthelion

I want these people to come to western countries and experience freedom. I want them to escape those "fucked up backwards countries"

'These people' ffs? Which people? What freedom?

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Tim, as we're onto anecdotes, I actually know quite a few Saudis, both male and female. While I accept they may often hold views I might personally find highly questionable or objectionable, I have never encountered that sort of behaviour from the many Saudis I've had dealings with over the last ten years or so. While some Saudi men may well have behaved in the way you describe, the same behaviour could feasibly be attributed to a certain type of man from literally any nationality or ethnic group.

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wojtek

jef, if it's so unremarkable why don't you believe Saudis can act in the same manner.

I don't believe that Tim went up to a group of Saudis and had a chat about the fact that they were looking at women's arses.

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I had to prove to them that they were losers for walking 10 meters back, rather than going up and talking to them like normal people would.

So it would be OK if this group of men went up to these women and hassled them on the street? Is that what "normal" people do?

So this is great. Tim is an anarchist, and an immigrant. He recognises that not all immigrants have a problem with sexual harassment etc, and that some people in their own countries do also. However he wants a government program to train all migrants how to treat women.

If you thought this would be a good idea, wouldn't it be a better idea to target it at all people who have problems with sexual harassment, rather than just migrants, like yourself?

And do you think you should be sent on training to not abuse women, because you are an immigrant?

Thing is, I'm not seeing any kind of evidence that Tim is an anarchist.

Fleur

Thing is, I'm not seeing any kind of evidence that Tim is an anarchist.

No I completely get that, that's kind of the point…

I think the recent case of Brock Allen Turner getting six months jail time after he was literally caught during the act of raping an unconscious woman is (yet another) example of how 'our' culture and institutions work to support rapists.

But no, the problem is migrants who sexually assault 'our' women because their culture makes excuses for it and their institutions don't punish it.. jesus fucking wept..

Worth reading on the topic:
The Horrible Things the Stanford Rapist's Friends and Family Said in His Defense
The Powerful Letter The Stanford Survivor Read To Her Attacker

Edit to add:
I know the response here will be 'well, that's just one guy'. I just want to point out that earlier I linked to an article that said frat house members are 3x more likely to rape than non-frat house members. Yet there is no discussion about 'banning/deporting American frat house members from Europe to protect women'. Yet there is exactly that discussion about migrants.

We are all for more integration between workers from different parts of the world and different cultural backgrounds but try to pursue that through promoting in ideas and practice independent class struggle across the divisions and barriers that capitalism and the state foster. We cannot rely on or expect the state to advance that integration other than in ways that aim to make us more pliable workers and consumers.
timthelion is not an anarchist or a communist as generally understood on this site but you don't have to be either of those separately or in combination to post on this site as far as I'm aware. timthelion expresses it seems to me quite honestly many of the confused and poorly thought out ideas that many of our fellow workers do every day but who wouldn't touch this site in a million years. They draw wrong conclusions from limited personal experiences and anecdotal evidence.The regular anarchist and communist posters on this thread have made strenuous efforts to correct timthelion's conclusions in ways that I couldn't summon the energy to match. It seems reasonable to give timethelion the time to argue their point of view out but the admins should not be censored for putting a limit on that at some point.

I agree with Spikymike #84.

Pretty sure we’ve all met people who identify as anarchist/communist/socialist, who know little of what the labels mean or even imply. An acquaintance told me they were very sociable. Her husband agreed, at university he’d help found a group of Scottish republican socialists, and had always voted SNP.
I think timthelion a bit more clued-up than that.

timthelion

as for your interpretation of my statement that some countries like Katar and Saudi Arabia are "horrible fucked up coutries", I don't mean that their people are fucked up, but I DO think that their cultures and their governments are fucked up. Neither of those countries allow their citizens to visit libcom.org.

just remembered that he said this. We get around 300 visits per month from Saudi Arabia, and about 100 per month from Qatar. So don't know where you got that from.

Steven.

just remembered that he said this. We get around 300 visits per month from Saudi Arabia, and about 100 per month from Qatar. So don't know where you got that from.

It's also rather racist to lump the two nations together as they're pretty different. Qatar is a lot like the UK really, it has an elected government and a constitutional monarchy and its female population does have significantly more rights and opportunities than in Saudi Arabia. It still cracks down on dissent and treats poor foreign workers abysmally and has corporal punishment on its books (though the UK still flogged people until the 1970's in its overseas territories, and France the cradle of reason and enlightenment beheaded people up to 1977)

The UAE recently updated its anti discrimination laws http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/united-arab-emirates-introduces-discriminatory-anti-discrimination-law/#gs.ATK7_gk

While I don't think any regime in the region is particularly positive, pretending they're monolithic just shows incredible ignorance.

That same poster was pretending to be concerned about the "historical connections" between anarcho-syndicalism and fascism, and positioning himself as some true orthodox marxist in the comments section under akai's blog piece titled 'Anarchosyndicalism against fascism'.

Completely unsurprising that he is now a proud fascist. What is more surprisingly is that he didn't realise that he was a fascist piece of shit back then

doesn't the username kingZOG suggest he was a fascist from the start?

doesn't the username kingZOG suggest he was a fascist from the start?

Damn, I never really even made that connection until you pointed it out... it's so bleeding obvious.

Khawaga

doesn't the username kingZOG suggest he was a fascist from the start?

Damn, I never really even made that connection until you pointed it out... it's so bleeding obvious.

I thought that it was a joke.

Yeah, I thought it was ironic, but then ironically he became an actual fascist

This guy was confronted by Seattle residents last week after fly-posting in downtown and ended up sprinting away, leaving the young Identity Europa activist he was with to be grilled by anti-fascists. His young friend grassed him up completely and was utterly cowardly, telling the anti-fascists everything he could to avoid a beating. I guess when you get left behind by someone loyalty ends. If these two are the best Identity Europa have to offer in Seattle then smashing them off the streets should be easy for US comrades.

He was quick to the mark on the Michael Schmidt thread too: https://libcom.org/forums/general/ak-press-says-michael-schmidt-fascist-25092015

no1, I don't think so. It's a reference to the Albanian king Zog I of the interwar period.

edit: Nevermind, hadn't seen other posts mentioning this.

Juan Conatz

no1

doesn't the username kingZOG suggest he was a fascist from the start?

If you mean because of the acronym 'Zionist Occupied Givernment', I thought so too back then, but then I checked and it, as well as 'Ahmet Muhtar' seemed to refer to Zog I of Albania. I know nothing about this guy, but don't think I looked into further.

interesting - thanks
P.S. According to Wikipedia, Zog was dependent on the support of Benito Mussolini's government, ironically.

When I saw this had updated after so long and remembered how it turned out, I braced myself for something pretty ugly. Got to be honest I wasn't expecting this.

Jim

This guy was confronted by Seattle residents last week after fly-posting in downtown and ended up sprinting away, leaving the young Identity Europa activist he was with to be grilled by anti-fascists. His young friend grassed him up completely and was utterly cowardly, telling the anti-fascists everything he could to avoid a beating. I guess when you get left behind by someone loyalty ends. If these two are the best Identity Europa have to offer in Seattle then smashing them off the streets should be easy for US comrades.

Its a shame he continued his slide, but its good to see him fail so badly at it. Well done to the Seattle community.

https://pugetsoundanarchists.org/with-friends-like-these-beacon-hill-white-nationalist-organizers-exposed/

Spencer Sturdevant’s posts on Left-Communist oriented Facebook groups and websites such as Libcom.org started to take an ironic and confusing turn. Easily and unfortunately brushed off by those around him as a sort of twisted humor, the real public defamation began in 2015 when Spencer Sturdevant started to post outright support for Trump and virulent anti-immigrant and refugee stances. During this time Cyan Quinn repeatedly claimed that his Right leaning politics were a misunderstanding to his old friends on the Left.