By listening 2 representatives of the antifa-movement on the American channel Fox News, I heard the following: "anti-fascists attacked the right wing in Charlotsville because anti-fascists are "against Haight-speech", "freedom of speech is not for those who spread hatred." Also, they said that antifa unite different people: there are not only anarchists among them. Also the following thing: in the reports of the various teams they constantly emphasized that American anti-fascists unite "anarchists, socialists and Communists (Leninists)". In this regard, I have few small comments.
Anarchism, communitarian self-government and anti-fascism
Anti-fascist movement was formed as an Alliance of all or many of the opponents of fascism in the so-called Era of Fascism (if we use the definition of the famous German historian Ernst Nolte), in 1930 - 1945 years of the 20th century. This movement suffered a crushing defeat in Spain, before reaching the goal.
Moreover, anarchist self-governing communes in Aragon and self-managing factory in Barcelona was captured by anti-fascist Republican government, which United the social Democrats and Stalinists. Thousands of anarchists and activists, members of the commune movement were arrested or shot. Anarchists somehow decided at that time that for the sake of anti-fascism to abandon resistance to the left state (Republic). In the end anarchists suffered a heavy defeat from the blows of anti-fascists that destroyed the self-management of factories and local communities. And then, the Republic still lost the war to the fascists.
We can discuss to infinity how could anarchists act (it is highly likely that the coalition with left-wing parties and the Republic (the enemies of the anarchists) was required for tactical purposes, but it was necessary to prevent the arrival of the left-partys' troops to the anarchist areas, like the Kurds (PYD), periodically entering into a coalition with Assad but not allowed on its territory troops and officials of Assad out of 2 small areas). In any case, historical experience of anti-fascism proved to be very bad for anarchists and for the social revolution in Spain.
Anarchists received from those who mistakenly believed as "friends" shocks in the back. Self-management in Barcelona and Aragon and the anarchist revolution in Spain became a victim of anti-fascism.
What are anarchists fighting for?
The main point of activity of the anarchists is the transformation of society. So, the attempts to initiate the establishment of an Autonomous self-governing territorial communes (libertarian communalism) and direct action of workers at the place of work (revolutionary anarcho-syndicalism or councils).
Today, revolutionary syndicalism is missing: all attempts of the anarchists to create such structures ended with the transition to civilian pacifist legalists trade Union's activities, collective agreement with the business and governmental mediation committees and state courts.
Communitarian system, however, work in Mexico (Gerrero, Oahaka, Chiapas), in some areas of Syria (Arabic, Kurdish). In addition, similar initiatives exist in Greece, France and some other countries. Everything else can be at best only as supplement and complement to this kind of real work for the radical transformation of society.
If now the right-wing threaten to libertarian communes in United States, the logic of the anarchists would have been absolutely clear: they need fight against right-wing with goal to expand the boundaries of libertarian communitarian influence. But, as far as I know libertarian communes almoust does not exist in USA. Then, why do you unleash street war with a powerful enemy? (And why this war is initiated with a right-wing, but not with a supporters of Hillary Clinton, for example?). In Russian it is called "put the cart before the horse".
Street war
American militia are armed, have tens of thousands of people. Among them and among the American right-wing, there are many those who can use arms. You have to be very stupid to think that if you're getting into a fight with fist or stick, you wood get answer only with a fist or stick. The opponent may reply with a pistol shot or deadly attack of the car (it happened). No one ever agreed on the rules of Boxing. If no such arrangements, we should not be surprised when the fight turns into a massacre. Therefore, I ask: "are You really sure you want war right now?"
American right-wings is not so strong to unleash big street war, they are pretty marginal and they are under the scrutiny of the security services of the government. But at the same time they are armed and may be dangerous. But if the anarchists, together with the Leninists, want to start a war with the right wing it can happen. Are you sure you want it now? Because no one promised you "a fair fight".
Hate-speech
Some American leftists and part of the anarchists believe that they have the right to use violence to muzzle opponents. I don't feel sorry for white supremacists. But on the other hand I want to ask: what else do American leftists think as "Hate-speech"?
American leftis infinitely expand the concept of "fascism, nazism and racism". They often call as "fascists" everyone who disagrees with them... including each other.
I saw many did not adequately respond to the discussion, for example, such as debates about "black racism". If you only speak of it, for example about the Nation of Islam, many of the leftists immediately respond with insults and call you "nazi".
Finally, I have suffered in this environment from insults on a national basis. For example I was told : "Shut up white Jew!". And none of them stopped the anti-Semites. I want to add that I have a negative attitude to the state of Israel and Zionism, and anti-Semitic insults were caused not by discussing the issue of Israel. No, it's just part of the American left wing considers acceptable to offend Jews with white skin.
Finally, explain to me one thing. Those who cooperated with the Leninists, Stalinists, Maoists, those who carry on the demonstration flags of the USSR, at the same time talking about the ban of "hate speech". But what is the flag of Soviet Union at the demonstration of anti-fascists? Isn't it a symbol of hatred and repressions?
Conclusion
I don't think the war with the right wing is a good point todey. Would be better if the anarchists are engaged in initiatives related to the development of autonomy of local communities (or workers councils if it is possible). There is the place to use many skills and aspirations.
Interesting
Interesting discussion
https://libcom.org/forums/general/antifa-no-thanks-11052017
meerov21 wrote: Anti-fascist
meerov21
This is inaccurate as applied to Charlottesville. The actions of the anti-white nationalist protestors there has its roots in Abolitionism.
Although many antifa might look to Europe for inspiration, the struggle in North America predates that by centuries.
With all due respect, the
With all due respect, the abolitionists did not use the red rags with the flag of the USSR and did not cooperate with supporters of the left totalitarianism.
Although many antifa might
Although many antifa might look to Europe for inspiration...
Sure my text is about them.
meerov21 wrote: With all due
meerov21
Read Do Marxian academics dream of affluent LARPers? to see how sectarian leftists -- Social Democrats and Trotskyites -- have largely denounced antifa.
Tankies marching alongside other opponents of white nationalism must be a recent phenomenon (with the exception of BAMN and RefuseFascism.org, a front group of the RCP). Please show us examples of this (perhaps Austin?).
Sorry, I'm professionally
Sorry, I'm professionally engaged in the study of the history of the Russian revolution, and I see no fundamental difference between Trotsky and Stalin. In any case, it does not matter.
American anti-fascists cooperate with totalitarian groups (Stalinists, Maoists and part pf the Trotskyists). It's a widespread phenomenon. For anti-fascists example of anti-fascists cooperation between anarchists, Republicans, social Democrats, Stalinists in Spain is very important and positive. I explained that this example is:
a) harmful for the anarchists and the social revolution
b) ineffective, because led to the victory of the fascists during the civil war in Spain
c) has all the hallmarks of hate speech. In my country, Lenin and Stalin killed thousands of anarchists and millions of peasants and workers by installing totalitarian regimes. Marxism-Leninism and the flag of the USSR are hate-speech.
meerov21 wrote: American
meerov21
This may have happened in Charlottesville last weekend, but it didn't happen in other places. I didn't see this at the anti-white nationalist protests in Berkeley on February 1, March 4, April 15 or April 27 this year.
Where has this been happening in the U.S.? Please give contemporary examples.
From what I've seen, Marxist-Leninists (except BAMN & RCP) have -- until Charlottesville -- devoted most of their energy to denouncing antifa. The argument of these totalitarians has been indistinguishable from that of the Democratic Party.
This may have happened in
This may have happened in Charlottesville last weekend, but it didn't happen in other places.
It did
meerov21 wrote: This may have
meerov21
Where? When? I don't believe you.
My hope is that neo-Nazi's
My hope is that neo-Nazi's don't become to the Left what "islamic terrorism" has become to the right, an easy enemy that distracts People from Capitalism domination and the continued commodification of life and the growing desperate misery.
1 out of 5 children in the richest country in the world and history live in poverty, and not "poverty" in a village where they don't need Money, urban poverty or rural alianated poverty ...
"Rommon My hope is that
"Rommon My hope is that neo-Nazi's don't become to the Left what "islamic terrorism" has become to the right, an easy enemy that distracts People from Capitalism domination and the continued commodification of life and the growing desperate misery."
I totally agree with you. However, I would add one more thing. I believe that anarchists need to break completely with the left discourse with which we have nothing in common. We have no more in common with the Leninist or left-wing liberals than with the extreme right or neo-liberals. I agree with many anarchists of Greece, Brazil, Belarus, who completely broke with the left, and go to the idea of Greek anarchists: "the Chiefs are on the left and Chiefs on the right are the same." We must return to the ideas of Bakunin, the Spanish radical anarchism of the 19th century, to libertarian communitarianism, etc.
This may have happened in
This may have happened in Charlottesville last weekend, but it didn't happen in other places.
It did
Where? When? I don't believe you.
I spoke with American anti-fascists and they told me they go to rallies with Leninist. This does not mean that anti-fascists always coordinate their actions with the Leninists, but they do not attack the red fascists in general.
meerov21 wrote: This may have
meerov21
Where? You still didn't answer the question.
When? You still didn't answer the question.
I still don't believe you.
meerov21
This is not credible!
meerov21 wrote: I totally
meerov21
I have Things in common With Leninist, liberals, conservatives, anarchists and so on: I dissagree With all of those People on many different issues, but I don't believe in being Team "this" or team "that": I support struggles and movements that I think are good and worthwhile and beneficial, but I don't like this political tribalism that seems to always prominent.
"and so on" you mean like...
"and so on" you mean like... (neo)fascists of all sorts? or only then there starts the "team" separation? if so what meakes them so specific to the other "teams" (sorry, ideologies).
I support Antifa, but they
I support Antifa, but they are too physically and mentally weak. What kind of fighters are they as passersby are stronger than "fighters"
It's something like Rocket League, when you want buy crates and keys and you cant. I play rocket league too and sometimes I play with this masked guys, they are always weak like baby.
I buy Rocket League Crates here https://odealo.com/games/rocket-league
@Hieronymous the WWP have at
@Hieronymous the WWP have at least in the past couple of years been pro street-antifascism: http://www.workers.org/2016/06/30/workers-world-candidates-solidarity-with-anti-fascists-in-sacramento/
PSL also: https://twitter.com/pslweb/status/747461966751535104
No idea how recent a phenomenon this is. WWP activists also got arrested for the Durham confederate statue toppling. From the Durham stuff WWP seems to have a relatively young membership so that might have something to do with it?
Triumpf wrote: I support
Triumpf
What an utterly stupid thing to say! As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is involved in physical resistance to European and more so US fascism is incredibly courageous and heroic, given the extreme level of violence they are potentially facing. Also there are plenty of occasions where Antifa have wiped the floor with their far-right opponents...
Here is what i think
Here is what i think :
https://libcom.org/forums/history/two-main-currents-anarchism-02092017
Hieronymous I still don't
Hieronymous
I still don't believe you.
What about this video?
"In prisons of the USSR homosexuals had the name "cocks"
https://libcom.org/forums/history/prisons-ussr-homosexuals-had-name-cocks-02092017
meerov21 wrote: Hieronymous I
meerov21
What does this have to do with antifa on the streets of the U.S., in cities like Seattle, Berkeley, Auburn, Charlottesville and Boston?
Are you alleging that antifa are [secret] agents in the employ of the international Bolshevik conspiracy (funded by George Soros), toeing the Moscow line and blindly pursuing the anti-fascist agenda in the service of USSR foreign policy? If so, you have to do better than tell us what gays used to be called in prison.
Are you alleging that antifa
Are you alleging that antifa are [secret] agents in the employ of the international Bolshevik conspricy
No. But I'm trying to say the American anti-fascists tolerant to red fascism and hate-speech.
meerov21 wrote: Are you
meerov21
Not to beat a dead horse, but do you base this on anything more than Facebook photos and videos? If not, it's a pretty shallow analysis. From my perspective in the Bay Area (where I attended all 5 "Battles of Berkeley"), there has been pretty open hostility from the left -- across the political spectrum -- towards antifa (with the exception of BAMN and the RCP's front group RefuseFascism -- as I mentioned elsewhere on libcom -- neither of which fly the Soviet flag nor brandish the hammer and sickle). That began to change after Charlottesville, but you sound like Fox News when you equate the anti-authoritarians in antifa with "red fascism" and "hate speech."
Once again, what do you base your dogma on?
Not to beat a dead horse, but
Not to beat a dead horse, but do you base this on anything more than Facebook photos and videos?
Why shood i? Even your American burgua court accepts (as evidence) photos and videos. This is quite enough.
That began to change after Charlottesville, but you sound like Fox News when you equate the anti-authoritarians in antifa with "red fascism" and "hate speech."
You use naw well-known technique named "Reduction to Hitler". If the bad guy said something it does not mean that this is not true. Hitler was a vegetarian, but it does not mean that all vegetarians are Nazis. I gave evidence. Bring photos and video anti-fascists are attacking people who has the flag of Soviet Union, just as they attack the right wing.
You gave absolutely no
You gave absolutely no evidence, just an anecdotal video. Again, stop shit posting.
not to give too much credence
not to give too much credence to meerov21, but in St Louis there is a growing MLM antifascist bloc. They aren't dressed in back or anything, just masked up, open carrying and dressed more in the suits and commie hats of the party. It's pretty fucked and they are actually using the language of antifa and anarchism here in sneaky direction towards mao.
STL isn't really a hotbed of fascists at the moment, so a lot of the anti-fascist struggle here comes off a bit contrived and full of bravado. I often have trouble understanding anti-fascist organizing against the very real fascist threat outside of here cuz I'm more at odds with police and landlords than fascists who are prolly to scared to come here.
Khawaga You gave absolutely
Khawaga You gave absolutely no evidence, just an anecdotal video. Again, stop shit posting.
No, no, no, I'll continue. And not just because I'm amused by your reaction.
Oh, I didn't for a moment
Oh, I didn't for a moment think you would stop throwing shit around. Then again, it's not like anyone takes your posts seriously, well but for any alt-right folks that may come here via Google, so go ahead.
...By the way, Khawaga, do
...By the way, Khawaga, do you remember that "dead scab is a cause for celebration"?
http://www.independent.co.uk/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/antifa-domestic-terrorists-us-security-agencies-homeland-security-fbi-a7927881.html
US security officials have classified the left-wing group Antifa as "domestic terrorists", confidential documents have revealed.
ajjohnstone
ajjohnstone
Wasn't like Mandela classified as a terrorist by the US? In any case antifa being classified as terrorists is hypocritical coming from a State that's been interfering in other countries' affairs for decades, backing far-right forces, overthrowing democratically-elected governments, etc.; just look at Latin America. (And not to sound too preachy but aren't all capitalist systems based on the separation of people from the means of production through the use violence and forcing them to sell their ability to work as their only commodity in order to survive?) It should be taken with a grain of salt, and should not be used as some guide to which groups or people are in the right or wrong.
ajjohnstone
ajjohnstone
Reading that article it isn't clear to me that Antifa have been "classified ... as 'domestic terrorists'". Is this more a case of another clickbait headline from the Independent?
Mark, my estimation of the
Mark, my estimation of the Independent has really gone down in recent years. I was an admirer of it (and the Glasgow Herald) for their anti-Iraq war stance. But change of ownership, change of editorials and change of format from print to online, has turned it as you say into clickbait. I often give up in despair from the ads that start popping up, too.
I'd assume the headline and
I'd assume the headline and the first line of the report were written by a sub-editor and not the reporter. I agree about the state of the Independent.