In prisons of the USSR homosexuals had the name "cocks"

Hieronymous For every hammer and sickle and Soviet flag, there are literally thousands of circle

Wha's an amazing tolerance for hate-speech red fassism! You know, swastika has many meanings, ultimately it's just a solar symbol. If I understand correctly, you don't mind if people wear a flag with a swastika on the streets of London and NY; the flag, which looks the same as the flag of the Third Reich?

And where do you live?

I am by birth a Russian Jew, live in Russia, I lived in Israel in the past.

Fleur I doubt that there are many apologists for the Soviet Union amongst regular users of this site, so I have no idea why you think this is relevant in any way to contemporary anti fascist organization,

I did not understand. I hear all the time that anti-fascists in USA are fighting against hate-speech, and for LGBT rights. Why, then, are they tolerant to the red fascists and the symbols of the persecution of anarchists, peasants, strikers and the LGBT - the flag of USSR (my ex and fortunately dead homeland)?

other than your fucked up opinion that LGBTQ liberation has no place in anarchism.

Of course, I didn't say that. I said that in rural areas and in small towns of Syria it is impossible to raise the LGBT flag. This is not the same thing. You're lying and that's not good. This does not mean that I oppose LGBT rights. And I, anyway, do not go on the demonstration with the flag of the totalitarian state, under which thousands of gays was raped and murdered.

Khawaga Why do you keep posting nonsense?

Why are you so intolerant? Be polite, try to find arguments, don't be rude to people.

I've been to many of these anti-white nationalist conflagrations and have neither seen a hammer and sickle nor a swastika.

So naw you see :)

I did see some xenophobes with a hammer and sickle sign equating Trump with Russia and Putin. That's kinda the opposite of what you're saying.

No. Krimlin supports a part of the far right, such as Marine Le Pen, Trump. At the same time modern Kremlin has revived the cult of the USSR. It is logical that the extreme right-wingers love the flag. Similarly, many on the left love it because to them it is a symbol of Bolshevism and. simbol of modern Russia fighting with USA in Ukrane etc.

P.S.

I believe that at least part of the anti-fascists knew the meaning of the flag of the USSR. At least some knew that this is the flag of the totalitarian state, and the Bolshevik shit. So why no one expressed outrage and asked to remove this flag? Why the reaction to the flag of the Third Reich would have been different? And I'll tell you. Because many anti-fascists in the U.S. tolerant of Bolshevism and USSR where my relatives have been arested.

jef costello I know we can argue that the swastika is also an appropriated symbol, but it is pretty hard to claim that you don't know what it was used for, whereas I think the hammer and sickle is less tarnished, at least in western eyes.

Yes, I see ;) And it looks offensive and, at least, causes distrust of the Western leftists and antifa. I'm not saying that they are all homophobes or Leninists. But I'm very surprised by the use of symbols of the totalitarian state, which had been killed thousands of anarchists, millions of peasants and workers, thousands of gays. And I would say that at least part of the anti-fascists know this. Their tolerance of totalitarian symbols looks disgusting. No one approached these people and asked them removed the flag.

American anti-fascists claim that the right wing should be deprived of freedom of speech, as they use the word to spread hatred. But what is the flag with the Hammer and Sickle in the eyes of millions of Americans? For many millions of Ukrainians, Jews, Poles, Lithuanians, Hungarians, Czechs, Latvians, Estonians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks, Chechens, Russian Germans, Kalmyks, Crimean Tatars, Russians it is a symbol of oppression. I've heard African-Americans say they're offended by the Confederate flag. I know many people who wear the Confederate flag, say they oppose racism. I don't know whether it's true or not. In any case, when African-Americans say they're offended by the Confederate flag, I can understand that. So tens of millions of people in the United States and outside the United States insulted the dirty flag of the USSR.

or they are carrying a communist symbol without really thinking it through

But what is the Communist symbol? Marxism-Leninism was a terrible tragedy for the people in Eastern Europe, China, etc. If someone defends this ideology, he is the enemy. Marxist-Leninists freely attend the demonstrations of antifa and other left-wing and you all know this very well. I understand that you can make a deal with the enemy against another enemy. But in this case the argument that it is necessary to deprive of freedom of speech of those who spread hatred, deprived of sense.

"radicalgraffiti there is a tendency to ignore the actual bad stuff the USSR did because of the missive amount of anti communist propgander. "

Yeah, but think about what you say.

First The main propaganda of the United States was not directed against Communist anarchism, but against the Soviet Union. Yes, perhaps, American propagandists exaggerated certain negative features of the USSR (although, the study of the history of the early Soviet Union convinces me that American propaganda may be underestimated sometimes the evil that brought the world by Bolshevism: I'm not sure that the propaganda of the United States said Soviet Regime organized the ethnic cleansing against 60 ethnic groups (3.5 million people) during and immediately after the second world war - at that time USA was an ally of the USSR.). But may be they exaggerated. So what? American propagandists criticized the Third Reich also. Is thet justification for the lovers of the swastika flag?

Second. Why do you care the Confederate flag offends African-Americans (and I agree that they can feel the insult), but don't care that millions of people living in the United States (Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians) are offended by the flag of the USSR?

if someone uses the confederate flag or the swastika they are advocating white supremacism, racism genocide etc. if someone uses the hammer and sickle they are advocating communism equality, freedom etc they are doing it badly, but that is the intention.

How do you know? I haven't met a single Leninist, including in the countries of the West, who would fight for freedom or equality or for communism. These people are supporters of the authoritarian centralism of the party, the party hierarchy, the nationalization of the economy (and this is one of the most brutal forms of exploitation of workers by the state), and they are in one way or another justify the crimes of Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin or Mao. These people are enemies of humanity.

Moreover, I do not care what is happening in their strange souls. Their flag with the hammer and sickle is flag of the USSR is an insult millions of people, living and dead, U.S. citizens and citizens of European countries.

Just like the Confederate flag offends African-Americans. By the way, some people who use the Confederate flag, say they are against racism. Even if they're not lying, this is not so important.

stuff like this, and decades of movie villans, makes it really easy for people to think that all negartive things said about hte soviat union are made up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

I have not read the Black Book of communism. Saw only fragments of it. I suspect that thanks to the study of the documents and modern scholarly works about the Soviet Union I can tell you about this shit much more horror than any book published in the West. A member of my family that was repressed, could tell more, but he died.

"zugzwang Haven't read meerov's comments, but various far-right figures, David Duke, Alex Jones, prattle on about a "Bolshevik revolution" in America"

Well it looks like You use technique named "Reduction to Hitler". If the bad guy said something it does not mean that this is not true. Hitler was a vegetarian, but it does not mean that all vegetarians are Nazis.

And I'm not saying that Bolshevik revolution will be. I'm talking about hypocrisy: you Cannot on the one hand to denounce the right-wing totalitarian propaganda symbols and hate speech, and with the other hand to be tolerant of left totalitarianism and the symbols of hate (flag of the USSR), which is an insult to millions of people in the United States and outside the United States as well as the Confederate flag.

arkface:

not to give too much credence to meerov21, but in St Louis there is a growing MLM antifascist bloc. They aren't dressed in back or anything, just masked up, open carrying and dressed more in the suits and commie hats of the party. It's pretty fucked and they are actually using the language of antifa and anarchism here in sneaky direction towards mao.

STL isn't really a hotbed of fascists at the moment, so a lot of the anti-fascist struggle here comes off a bit contrived and full of bravado. I often have trouble understanding anti-fascist organizing against the very real fascist threat outside of here cuz I'm more at odds with police and landlords than fascists who are prolly to scared to come here.

https://libcom.org/forums/general/antifa-charlottesville-20082017

"zugzwang I wasn't making a comment about you or doing any "guilt by association" stuff. I was just making an observation about the application of the term "Bolshevik" to anti-fascists by the far-right."

OK, I understand. I'm sorry if I offended you. We call that red shit as "Bolsheviks" in Eastern Europe, because we don't want to spoil the name of "communism".

meerov21

arkface:

not to give too much credence to meerov21, but in St Louis there is a growing MLM antifascist bloc. They aren't dressed in back or anything, just masked up, open carrying and dressed more in the suits and commie hats of the party. It's pretty fucked and they are actually using the language of antifa and anarchism here in sneaky direction towards mao.STL isn't really a hotbed of fascists at the moment, so a lot of the anti-fascist struggle here comes off a bit contrived and full of bravado. I often have trouble understanding anti-fascist organizing against the very real fascist threat outside of here cuz I'm more at odds with police and landlords than fascists who are prolly to scared to come here.

https://libcom.org/forums/general/antifa-charlottesville-20082017

Well, I think that the video that I present, are the proof. I do not suffer from hysteria, and not looking throughout the Alt-right, and just giving the facts. Here's an interview where the anti-FA say about hate-speech. May be it is not real anti-fascists?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ET1ozKHRkE

"Fleur Jesus fuck, are you actually presenting a FoxNews segment as "evidence "? No wonder you have a peculiar idea of what you think is happening on this continent."

I use different evidence like the video above, or "arkface". But I have a feeling that some leftists love to play such game as "Reductio ad Hitlerum". Do you really think that if Hitler said that two plus two is four, then in reality there is five? I don't care what channel, I equally don't like the left and right channels of a manipulative machine called TV. I asked the question is that real anti-fascists or not? So You're not at a leninist party meeting, try to speak intelligently and clearly answer my question.

"Fleur Jesus fuck, are you actually presenting a FoxNews segment as "evidence "? No wonder you have a peculiar idea of what you think is happening on this continent."

I use different evidence like the video above, or "arkface". But I have a feeling that some leftists love to play such game as "Reductio ad Hitlerum". Do you really think that if Hitler said that two plus two is four, then in reality there is five? I don't care what channel, I equally don't like the left and right channels of a manipulative machine called TV. I asked the question is that real anti-fascists or not? So You're not at a leninist party meeting, try to speak intelligently and clearly answer my question.

Try to speak intelligently and clearly?
That's very good advice you could give yourself.

You're absolutely right. Every time when i am talking to left-wing or right-wing I give myself this advice.

How am I supposed to extrapolate the political opinions of a couple of talking heads from a 4 minute bit of TV punditry.

No, no, I'm not interested in your extrapolation. When I gave the link to this channel, I saw you have something similar to a panic attack. Then I asked, whether these people are anti-fascists or it's a fake made by the right-wing channel? You never answered my question...

Fwiw, Hitler's been dead for a long time. It's not him that's the problem, it's the living, breathing fascists who are terrorizing people and communities right now.

I agree with you. But this is not clear and Intelligent answer to my question.

I didn't have a panic attack when I saw the Fox link. I have an anxiety disorder, so trust me when I say I know what a pain attack is.

I see. Now try to calm down, despite your obvious illness and try to understand what I said. I have heard many times from anti-fascists they believed that they will not allow the right wing to Express views publicly, as the right wing spread hatred through the speech. I believe that this is the standard position of the anti-fascists. Or are you saying that anti-fascists advocate the freedom of expression and demonstrations for the right wing? This is clearly not the case. In confirmation of this position, I use antifa on channel TV of United States. Is This position differs from the standard position anti-fascists? Of cours no. And what's the difference, in this case, on what TV channel is it? Can i give the links on CNN for example or not?

Please, stay calm. I don't want you have problems with pain or panic.

As for your question, it was just dumb so I have no idea what kind of answer you're expecting.

Why are you being rude? I did not insult you.

jef costello I don't think it's just a matter of education. From the participant of the Camp of the Class Struggle (the Radical part of the Occupy-wall Street) I am aware of the presence of the Leninists in the American protest movements and the willingness of many anarchists to cooperate with them. I don't think this is all is just about education.

On the other hand, there is the issue of abuse, offense. The truth is, I don't think there's much sense in reacting to a symbol of something, such as the Confederate flag or the flag of the USSR. There is always a chance that the one who carries it, is not red or brown fascist. May be this person does not understand what is the meaning of this symbol, gives it an erroneous meaning, or he's just an idiot.

But on the other hand, I understand African-Americans who was offended by the Confederate flag and I understand Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Georgians etc insulted by the flag of the USSR. So, if you show such sensitivity in one situation, it was worth it to be in another case.

P.S. Incidentally, the term "red fascism" was used by the anarchist Vsevolod Volin (associate of Makhno, the author of the book the Unknown revolution) and the German revolutionary marxist Otto Rule (the Struggle against fascism begins with the struggle against Bolshevism).

1. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/voline-red-fascism
2. https://www.marxists.org/archive/ruhle/1939/ruhle01.htm

FleurI am perfectly calm. I can guarantee you that I would never have a stronger reaction to a patronizing fool like you

It's just insults. For my part, I have not insulted anyone.

This entire thread is ridiculous, in fact you're spreading the same talking point across several threads. There is zero intersection between the abuse of LGBTQ people in the Soviet Union and the tactics of Antifa in North America in 2017. There may be a few Antifa gathering under the banner of the hammer and sickle, most are not - despite what you may have seen on Fox - and in any case what few Tankies there are, they are not shooting up black churches, mosques, threatening children at Jewish daycare centers, queer bashing, killing trans women, or marching through a town like Charlottesville, which has a large African American population, armed to the teeth and intimidating the population. That would be the fash who are doing that.

The Bolsheviks in Your country is not as strong as they were strong in my country. But they are supporters of totalitarian ideas, not some abstract "communism", at least many of them. Wherever they were in power, they did part of what you described and more, much more horrible. The exceptions are few. I didn't say anything about the danger of Bolshevism in the US at the moment, I spoke about other things. But you and your comrades just use insults. This is proof that with the part of the American and European leftists no dialogue is possible.

jondwhite I think in this case, zugzwang is right, no-one but David Duke, Alex Jones etc. thinks Bolshevism is close to power in the West , not even Bolsheviks themselves.

And why do you say that? You want to divert the conversation away as others here? Read carefully everything I wrote, letter by letter. Just try it. You won't find where I wrote that "Bolsheviks in the moment can seize power in the United States". I never wrote such nonsense. I wrote that American anti-fascists are intolerant of the right wing, but tolerant of the leftist supporters of totalitarianism, the Bolsheviks, who offend with dirty flag of USSR dozens of peoples, millions, just as the flag of Confederation offends African-Americans.

Antifa do not endorse Bolshevism

Antifa tolerant of Bolshevism and do not interfere with its representatives to use of totalitarian symbols.

A minor point with radicalgraffiti, a lot of tankie groups (less so Trots) do use the hammer and sickle, CPGB for example.

What he said was just a stream of rude insults. Such affects only indicate the absence of arguments. Of course tankie use this shit.

Reductio ad hitlerum is about Hitler specifically which you are the only person to mention.

Well just Try to understend what i mean. The right-wing channel had an interview with anti-fascist activists, who said about the struggle against hate-speech. This itself is known position of the anti-fascists who say that they will not allow the right wing to use freedom of speech to spread hatred against minorities. I gave a link on this channel. Instead of discussing the real issue "opponents" say: "No, we're not going to discuss it, because right-wing Fox news channel said this!" This is the use of primitive technology of which I speak: "If Hitler was a vegetarian, then be vegetarian is Nazism. If the right-wing said something, then it isn't true, even if they told that two and two make four". Is it that hard to replace "Hitler" on the "right wing"?