Migrants & sexual violence

Submitted by Juan Conatz on April 20, 2016

admin the poster 'kingzog' on this thread was banned due to their comments on it. They have continued their slide to the far right and were recently seen participating in a public outreach action of Identity Evropa's. IE is an American fascist/neo-Nazi organization started by Iraq War vet, Nathan Domingo.

Splitting this discussion from 'Towards an anarchist perspective of the 2016 primaries'.

Trigger warning: discussion of sexual violence

kingzog

Juan, same thing in Sweden. Massive welfare state. Lots of refugees, especially now. They take on average 10 years to get jobs, and are basically so marginalized in Swedish society, they are hostile to it and the areas they live in, public housing, are "no-go zones" for police. So social democracy isnt really cutting it.

Here in Seattle, the East African refugees(be interesting to compare it to Minneapolis' situation) have a slightly easier time finding jobs, as the US has more low wage jobs than sweden, but currently they have a huge gang and crime problem and are just not integrated into society, even tho many are 2nd generation now.

Cooked

Kingzog description fits the prevailing media narrative in sweden. The police claim certain areas to be no go zones for them as they occasionally get attacked by the kids as they go there. They are also claiming some areas lost to organised crime.

The swedish labour market is hugely discriminatory against immigrants and the big cities are amongst the most geographically/racially segregated in europe.

Of course the police is the police and they have their own agenda with the information they put out. Using terms like no go areas is hugely exaggerated and rubbish. People without first hand experience actually believe the media garbage. Despite an incredible retreat of services and support from the Stockholm "suburbs" they are generally quite good places to live for families.

I hope everyone on libcom agrees that "social democracy isnt really cutting it." but read some residue of scandi-nostalgia above. That stuff has to end.

fingers malone

Yeah I read that and thought "what crap".

I live in what is supposed to be one of those police no go area public housing hell holes in England. I am the only all-white household on my landing (oh, the horror). All the neighbours talk to me and help me with minor neighbourly things, like charging up my phone when I exploded all the sockets trying to do a repair. The Algerian lady on the block opposite makes me fantastic food, homemade bread, pastries, everything, and forgives me for taking ages to bring the tupperwares back.

"Not integrated into society" who says what's integrated? Who says what's society?

kingzog

Cooked, I don't think youre being honest, or you are, frankly, deluded. There are numerous stories and videos of migrants riotting, throwing stones, so on. I expect there will be more. Regardless of the motive or reason, or perhaps even a justification it is happening.

What's more, violent crime, and sexual crime has skyrocketed; there was a case of a 10 year old boy being raped even, the police had to reseque him from a mob. In some jurisdictions, they segregate buses so that children are not put in harm's way- evidence of this is freely available on the net.

Point is, these are facts we simply cannot dismiss. The migrants come from very patriarchical societies which never experienced a feminist movement, or really any liberal movent at all- again, this is the reality we must face.. And if we don't respond, then the working class will turn hard right. That's the simply truth.

Cooked

kingzog

Cooked, I don't think youre being honest, or you are, frankly, deluded. There are numerous stories and videos of migrants riotting, throwing stones, so on. I expect there will be more. Regardless of the motive or reason, or perhaps even a justification it is happening.

What's more, violent crime, and sexual crime has skyrocketed; there was a case of a 10 year old boy being raped even, the police had to reseque him from a mob. In some jurisdictions, they segregate buses so that children are not put in harm's way- evidence of this is freely available on the net.

Point is, these are facts we simply cannot dismiss. The migrants come from very patriarchical societies which never experienced a feminist movement, or really any liberal movent at all- again, this is the reality we must face.. And if we don't respond, then the working class will turn hard right. That's the simply truth.

Whats the fuck are you on about!?! You need to get your info from other sources. Secondly you missed my point which was to show the complete failure of social democracy whilst still disagreeing with the sensationalist media narrative. You however turned out to be so far off the rails I'm lost for words.

Khawaga

Agree with Cooked. From reading Kingzog's posts lately, I get the impression he'll be doing that classic old Trotskyite to neo-conservative move...

kingzog

I'm not a troskyite.

I'm not going to get indignant, but, can we truly deny the evidence of an ongoing sexual assault crisis in Europe perpetrated by the migrants? Can we deny it all together? Is any level tolerable? Do they get a pass because they aren't white? Do the lives and well being of the women assaulted matter at all? Is it off limits to discuss the political implications or do we simply stick out heads in the sandM

kingzog

....obviously social democracy has failed. But do we blame social democracy for rape? It's insane to me how the left goes on and on about western rape culture but then in the face of this.....we go silent. That's a capitualtion and a very dangerous one indeed.

Juan Conatz

I think the alarmist stuff about migrants and sexual assualt is more or less racist scapegoating. I haven't seen any evidence from non-far right sources that migrants committ sexual assualt at a greater rate than the general population. Reminds me of Trump's remarks about Mexicans or the historical KKK scare tactic of saying that free black men would go wild on the street and attack white women.

Juan Conatz

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

jef costello

I am wondering if Kingzog is an ironic name.
There is a huge amount of hyperbole of the rapes supposedly committed by immigrants, it turns out when you have the right perpetrators and the right victims the police will believe rape reports.

kingzog

Alarmist? Over 500 women reported sexual assaults in Germany from Migrants. Is the right wing media playing this up? Well yeah. But local news sources and police reports are the primary sources. Look it up guys. But most importantly, believe women!

Do they "only" commit rape at the same rate as others? Idk, do you know how common rape was in Sweden before mass immigration? Did you know it's now up there with South Africa? Dare to look at Germany? You best believe this really is happening. Just because it doesn't fit your narrative doesn't mean it's not true. 75 percent of the migrants are young men, not families or children for women. Most arent even from Syria Look it up.

Also, they are bringing sectarian strife with them. Recently Kurds and Turks attacked each other in the streets- in Sweden I believe. These are not isolated incidents. And just because only the right wing media are reporting them doesn't mean the victims aren't real.

kingzog

Seriously, I really don't understand why the left is unable to grapple with this- everyone in Europe knows about it. People all over the US, regular ppl I talk to even, are learning about it too. If the left denies it, then we really look like pieces of you-know-what. Especially considering how the left is supposedly against rape culture. I'm sorry, but grow a backbone ppl.

Left wing pundits in Germany and Sweden have regressed into victim blaming. I kid you not. Please, dong stoop to that level, that'll be the collapse of the left and the capitualtion to the right. Mark my words.

Juan Conatz

You kinda post like Donald Trump speaks. Even the content is borderline similar.

Are you going to provide some evidence of what I asked before? If it is so well known, it should be easy to find.

kingzog

You have hands. Use Google.

Juan Conatz

Nah, you're the one coming to a libertarian communist board with far-right narratives. Provide the evidence or shut up.

kingzog

But if you really can't be bothered:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3247831/Rape-child-abuse-rife-overcrowded-asylum-centres-huge-surge-migrants-pushes-Germany-s-services-breaking-point-claim-womens-rights-groups-politicians.html

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/cologne-is-every-day-europes-rape-epidemic/news-story/e2e618e17ad4400b5ed65045e65e141d
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden

We also know, for a fact, that most rapes go unreported for obvious reasons. It's likely much worse than reported.

And we know western countries like to cover up this sort of thing:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal

The fact is, this is undeniable and it is a major problem. The fact is, these men come from brutal societies where sexual abuse and misogyny are way above the western norm. This is why they have intensive integration classes about women's rights for these immigrants. To point this out isn't racist, but to deny it is to excuse rape culture at its worst.

kingzog

I know you guys think you're on the right side and have the good, moral/ethical high ground, however, I think you can't really see what's actually happening here. I know most of you don't have kids -don't have daughters. For most childless people, not all, but a lot, they have this myopia; they don't have "skin in the game", they don't have to really,

honestly

think about the future, about consequences. That sounds condescending, I know, but if you really thought in those terms, you'd understand why lots of people are very concerned about the violence, rape, assaults and so on

some

of the migrants have brought with them. If you had a daughter, you'd look at this very differently, especially a young daughter who will grow up amidst all this...

Imagine what the father and mother of this 10 year old victim think:

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2015/10/07/charges-mpls-man-accused-of-raping-10-year-old-girl/

Or the parents of the10 year old boy in Vienna raped by an Iraqi migrant:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/belgium-afghan-migrant-16-rapes-worker-asylum-centre-1545057

The issue is the societies the migrant

men

come from. Pakistan, for instance, according to human rights watch has a gang rape every 1-2 hours and 70-90percent of women face some form of domestic abuse.

And you wonder why Trump or the Sweden Democrats or Marine Le Pen are increasingly popular? Its quite obvious. But the real question for us is, how does the radical left respond? Because so far I think the denial and downplaying isn't working.

Spassmaschine

kingzog

The issue is the societies the migrant

men

come from. Pakistan, for instance, according to human rights watch has a gang rape every 1-2 hours and 70-90percent of women face some form of domestic abuse.

Well if crude statistics are your thing, in the country your profile says you come from, the gang rape rate is once every 30 mins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_rape#United_States

So apply your bullshit arguments to yourself: Why are you ignoring the American rape crisis, why can't you really see what's happening here...denial...downplaying...etc.

Does it occur to you that if you fucked off all your racist nonsense you might realise rape is a abhorrently widespread, indeed global problem? Then maybe you could consider why rapes by migrants are getting such publicity when the general modus operandi of our society is to ignore rape culture entirely?

Juan Conatz

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

gram negative

first, kingzog, i'd definitely agree that the middle east and north africa have huge (and complex and varied) issues with patriarchy and mosogyny; however, the west is also guilty of this as well.

everything that you have said about migrants, however, is completely garbage anti-immigrant nonsense, that also happens to not be true.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372

that article states that sweden's high rape rate is due to a high level of reporting - an issue in many countries, including western ones, and the definition used for what constitutes sexual assault, which is very broad. i'm sure that you will dismiss this as just more propaganda hiding the truth. that claim doesn't even pass the smell test and would go against the foundational principles of hierarhical society, which are predicated on the repression of minority groups. have you been to the US? if there was an epidemic of sexual assualt tied solely to immigrants, it would be blasting from every media source.

http://scholar.googleusercontent.com/scholar?q=cache:H20EY7e_fu0J:scholar.google.com/+baldwin+edwards+crime&hl=en&as_sdt=0,9&as_vis=1

this paper describes myths surrounding migrants in greece, which has a much higher proportion of migrants than sweden. surprise! migrants are not any more likely to commit violent crimes or sexual assaults, but do commit crimes against property, commit forgeries, and beg more often - i wonder why that is????????? also, migrants are treated more repressively by the state. the paper concludes with the baffling idea that issue of crime with migrants is due to their marginalization and poverty.

also, i don't know how you can be a communist or anarchist and take part in this kind of cultural scapegoating - it is contradictory to any sort of prefigurative politics and condones the state's repression of minority groups. what would you like to be done in response to this issue? police repression? the enforcement of borders that support the power of individual national capital? deportation? my city in the US has a big problem with street harrassment and has many colleges, which i'm sure you know have high rates of sexual assault - should we deport all of those people to wherever they came from? what about the vast majority of rapes that are carried out by men who know the woman involved - send them back from whence they came? why aren't you saying that?

i also find the european concerns over immigration to be hilarious, because european immigration to my parents' places of origin led to the extermination of over 90% of the indigenous populations, rape as a tool of war and terror on a mass scale, the imposition of slavery and plantation economies and on an on an on... but i guess that was in the past so it is different?

finally, yr weird concern trolling about yr daughter almost smacks of parody - i mean, can you get any more patriarchical than worrying about the control of "your female's" sexual activity?

Joseph Kay

Fwiw on Rotherham, the obscured part of the scandal was that several cops were colluding with the gang - who were apparently local gangsters/drug dealers as well as kidnapping/grooming/abusing kids - including accessing the Police National Database to feed them intelligence, and tipping them off about investigations.

Somehow the cops managed to spin their collusion with organised crime and abuse as 'we'd have nicked 'em if it wasn't for political correctness making brown people untouchable', and the line's been parotted by everyone from the fash to Zizek (an ever-shrinking distance between those though tbf).

Unfortunately, institutionalised abuse and cover-ups are a British tradition up to the highest level. As for the left not talking about/responding to e.g. the Cologne assaults, this is another Breitbart talking point, and false. As usual, feminists are organising around sexual violence (e.g. #ausnahmslos/#noexcuses), and people are ignoring them to pen a hundred 'where are the feminists now??111' dogwhistle pieces.

Cooked

Kingzog this is really pissing me off. This shit should not stand on libcom. (sorry for the offtopic but can't remain unanwered)

You are arguing with anectodal evidence from anti-immigration sources and fantasizing about who you are talking to. I have a daughter and I live in a suburb of Stockholm (Stockholm is segregated so that most immigrants live in the suburbs) My building has about 30% foreign born adults.

I'm not fucking afraid for my daughters well being due to immigrants!

Gram I actually think sweden has considerably larger per capita immigrant population than Greece. Perhaps the recent horrors have completely turned the stats over but I doubt it.

gram negative

Cooked

Gram I actually think sweden has considerably larger per capita immigrant population than Greece. Perhaps the recent horrors have completely turned the stats over but I doubt it.

you are right that sweden has a much higher number of migrants, but this graph:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Share_of_non-nationals_in_the_resident_population,_1_January_2014_%28%25%29_YB15.png

says the proportion is similar, with greece having slightly more, and more who are not from other EU states. this is 2014, so this may be out of date with 2015

mods - do yall want to move these posts?

Fleur

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Having read Kingzog's posts recently and not so recently, it is abundantly clear that they have an abysmal grasp of gender and sexual politics and would probably do well by getting better educated, try listening to people who have actual direct experience and stop getting information from such credible sources as the Daily Mail. ffs, using an epidemic of rape by migrants manufactured by the reactionary media to make some really shit point about immigration. How about listening to people who actually live in the parts of Europe that you are referencing to make some dodgy racist argument?

Juan Conatz

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Also, looking through kingzog's post again, he includes a link to a case here in Minneapolis where a Somali man committed a sexual assault on a young girl. As if this single event is supposed to be some definitive proof that immigrants are more likely to commit sexual assault.

This is the same kind of stuff that the racist anti-immigrant speaking circuit in the rural parts of the state harp on and on about, as well as the laughable 'no-go zones'. This stuff would be funny, if it wasn't actually dangerous. It creates an environment where a woman can have a bottle smashed on her face in an Applebees for not speaking English and a coffee shop gets burned down because it is predominately serves Somali people. It creates such rabid hate that every part of your mundane existence is aggressively challenged by foaming-at-the-mouth white Midwesterners.

Again, I don't think you know what you're talking about. You are literally just grabbing links from ridiculous right-wing sites and then saying that it proves something. The only thing you're proving is that you're susceptible, like many people are, to the worst kinds of demonization.

kingzog

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Everyone knows rape is a serious issue in the US. But in Sweden, before mass imigratio. In 70's it was very low. Europe has always had far far less crime, violent crime than the US. So to compare the US to Europe and say "well now they're just at our level now" isn't really much of an argument.

Rape in Sweden has increased by 1400% since the 70's. The UN has admitted that up to 80% of migrants are young men. Look it up. You all have Google. This is not "made up" by the media simply because you don't agree with the media sources doesn't disappear the numbers of women who report this stuff. Look up how many women report these crimes in Germany alone. It's abnormal for their society- less so, admittedly, for the US unfortunately.

And no, it's not "patriarchical" to be worried about ones child being raped- or for their safety in general. Rape is not "sexual activity" as Gram Negative wrote. I mean what sort of sick and twisted logic is that?

Does this reality give license to exact revenge on all migrants? Of course not, I don't believe that at all. Does this mean we ban all muslims? I never said that. I'm just offering some reality to people with their heads in the sand. Just look up the Cologne rapes and rapes in Sweden, also sexual assault in general. Youd have to totally be in denial to...well, deny this.

commieprincess

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Kingzog, I don't know where to start, but I'll go for just this one sentence for now.

Rape in Sweden has increased by 1400% since the 70's

Wikipedia:

The Swedish police record each instance of sexual violence in every case separately, leading to an inflated number of cases compared to other countries.Sweden also has a comparatively wide definition of rape. This means that more sexual crimes are registered as rape than in most other countries For example, in 2005 Sweden reformed its sex crime legislation and made the legal definition of rape much wider, which led to a marked increase in reports.

Additionally, the Swedish police have improved the handling of rape cases, in an effort to decrease the number of unreported cases. For this reason, large-scale victimisation surveys have been presented by criminologists as a more reliable indicator of rape prevalence.An EU-wide survey on sexual violence against women, published the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA) in 2014, showed Sweden was only third highest, below Denmark and Finland and a previous assessment by Brå have placed Sweden at an average level among European nations.

According to the FRA study there's a strong correlation between higher levels of gender equality and disclosure of sexual violence. This, and a greater willingness among Swedish women to report rape in relationships, may also explain the relatively high rates of reported rape in Sweden, which has a long-standing tradition of gender equality policy and legislation, as well as an established women's movement, and has been ranked as the number one country in sex equality

Fleur

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

commieprincess:

Kingzog, I don't know where to start

Are you absolutely sure you want to go down the route with arguing with this guy? I'm not trying to dissuade you but I have a feeling that nothing good will come of it.

kingzog

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

As far as no-go zones in sweden, it's not laughable at all. Unless you think it's a conspiracy? Look at the graphs and statistics from here:

http://fof.se/tidning/2015/5/artikel/darfor-okar-de-kriminella-gangens-makt

Maybe these stats are fake? Maybe all the people collecting them, the reporters, cops, social workers, and so on are together in this conspiracy to make up crime. But it's not hard to see this as true. These immigrants turn to crime because they have no skills and Sweden is a society which require a high degree of education and skill to find a job and even then, it's a tight market. So they form organized crime gangs. In Sicily, they are competing with the Mafia BTW, and it's getting bloody.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546081/Mafia-declares-WAR-migrants-Sicilian-gangster-shoots-innocent-Gambian-head-amid-soaring-levels-migration-Italy-mayor-saying-Sicily-s-capital-no-longer-European.html

But, sure, don't believe any of it, not even the photographs because it's reported by the daily mail. Well, what I see here is that they love this stuff because it happens to fit their worldview- right or wrong. But it doesn't fit the liberal media's worldview, so they ignore it or excuse it- as you all have been doing here. Effectively, this cedes the high ground to the right as they are the only ones addressing it.

kingzog

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

These reports are just that, reports. If these stories were more along the lines of that rape hoax in the Rolling Stone, format wise, I might question them a bit more.

Khawaga

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Yup, Kingzog's gone full reactionary neo-conservative on this one. This sort of argumentation is what Anders Behring Breivik spouted in his manifesto.

Juan Conatz

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

kingzog

Everyone knows rape is a serious issue in the US. But in Sweden, before mass imigratio. In 70's it was very low. Europe has always had far far less crime, violent crime than the US. So to compare the US to Europe and say "well now they're just at our level now" isn't really much of an argument.

If you're addressing me, I'm not the one who compared Sweden to the U.S. In fact, you're the one who was using examples of incidents in the U.S. to "prove" your point.

Anyway, I was wondering when I would see one of these people whose political identity is more wrapped up in being contrarian move from the IWW, to the ultraleft, and then finally to the right-wing. Looks like it's kingzog.

You still haven't provided any evidence of your claims. Instead of offering proof, you, like the conspiracy nutjobs that infest the comment sections of Youtube videos, tell us to "Google it". The first sign that an argument on the Internet has no credible backing to it is when the person making the argument tells others to do the research that backs up what they are saying. That's not how it works.

Rather than providing evidence, you've instead link-dumped a random assemblage of of high-profile incidents around the world that involve predominantly Muslim immigrants and sexual assault. That proves nothing.

That would be like if I linked to articles about sexual violence at Woodstock '99, Oktoberfest in Germany, the Wikileaks guy and the UK Socialist Workers Party and then used that to say that you, kingzog, as a white male, are predisposed to sexual assault compared to men of different ethnicity. It's absolutely ridiculous. And then to try to pass off this naked xenophobia as some sort of feminism is outrageously offensive. You are no feminist.

I did look up some of your sources. For example, your figure of a 1400% increase in sexual assaults in Sweden since the 1970s. Most of what I found were sites associated with David Horowitz, Ann Coulter, Alex Jones and a think-tank run by John fucking Bolton from the Bush II administration. Sorry if I take their "news" with a large block of salt.

Fleur

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

The Rolling Stone debacle was a case of Rolling Stone fucking up and imagining they could go to print without verifying sources to a standard of proof they could demonstrate without opening themselves up to threat of libel, something they could never do as a journalism piece and something they did for the sake of a shocking story. As for it being a hoax, it may have been. On the other hand it can also be interpreted as how difficult it is to cover such stories. Survivors almost never give a textbook coherent account and it's one of the reasons why convictions are so hard to get in court. Rolling Stone had no option legally other than retract the story and if it was a case of bad journalism they threw a woman under the bus to cover their asses. But there again we've covered all this in all the why are women so whiney about rape and so pathetic victims that they need trigger warnings and safe spaces threads which went down on here last year, threads that this poster participated in. Makes it kind of ironic that he's now using rape as a mechanism to get his racist point across.

Edit: As Juan said:

And then to try to pass off this naked xenophobia as some sort of feminism is outrageously offensive. You are no feminist.

gram negative

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

so, you may dismiss the interpretations of swedeb's rape rate, though you do not offer any counter-explanation that makes sense. what hierarchically organized state has looked the over way to downplay the actions of a low-status, minority group in such a situation. what is the conspiracy?

also, you should really look at the homicide/murder rate, which has much more commonality amongst states (for a variety of reasons). i used that google thingy you mentioned and found this website https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/crime-statistics/reported-offences.html which seems to be some office of the swedish state committed to crime prevention. if you look at the stats it is true that what they call sexual offences and rapes hve increased per 100000, but the increase closely tracks the 2005 redefinitions. the murder rate per 100000 has hovered around 2 for almost 40 years! none of your extraordinary are backed up by the evidence.

gram negative

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

that daily mail article is hilarious - did you even read it? the man who was shot is a Gambian immigrant, and has nothing to do with gangs - i guess we can thank the naturally less bloodthirsty tendencies of the european shooter for somehow missing any vital organs after shooting him in the head. what is your point with that article? would brutal violence perpetrated by mini state rackets like the mafia be better if the face that is shaking you down is fair?

aren't you american? wasn't this same shit said about the southern euorpeans, including sicilian immigrants to the US? new jersey is filled with no-go zones

radicalgraffiti

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

if you think of the daily mail as fascist propaganda you should have a more or less accurate view of there coverage of anything involving immigrants

The Pigeon

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

What should we westerners do about this? We are clearly dealing with a patriarchal civilization that does not respect our women or our children. Of course kingzog is not supporting wholesale exclusion of these criminals, that would be too easy a view to take. But the problem is there and our liberal society does not want to face it. We have to do something, as kingzog is rightly pointing out. These young men who are becoming criminals in our civilization, and corrupting it with its barbaric culture, need to be dealt with somehow. But kingzog also believes in helping the migrants, because like the jihadists these criminals are holding the rest of the migrant community hostage. I wonder how we'll be able to separate out the chaff and keep the west safe from this invasion.

radicalgraffiti

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

well we could start by burning the mail to the ground I suppose

Juan Conatz

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

The Pigeon

What should we westerners do about this? We are clearly dealing with a patriarchal civilization that does not respect our women or our children. Of course kingzog is not supporting wholesale exclusion of these criminals, that would be too easy a view to take. But the problem is there and our liberal society does not want to face it. We have to do something, as kingzog is rightly pointing out. These young men who are becoming criminals in our civilization, and corrupting it with its barbaric culture, need to be dealt with somehow. But kingzog also believes in helping the migrants, because like the jihadists these criminals are holding the rest of the migrant community hostage. I wonder how we'll be able to separate out the chaff and keep the west safe from this invasion.

I think we should call out and condemn anti-migrant scapegoating based on racist tropes and fears like your post. The general acceptance of these disgusting views, demonstrated by their occurrence even on a communist site, is more of a danger than anything migrants represent.

commieprincess

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

The Pigeon

our women

....lol

The Pigeon

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

I'm merely flushing out kingzog's posts. All he seems to be saying is there is a victimized West being invaded by a lustful, patriarchal culture that "we" have to face up to, as if european governments, and every other government, were ours.

Fleur

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

You do know that this has been a consistent theme, them foreigners, coming over here, taking our jobs, or not taking our jobs and scrounging off us, living like (fill in whatever people don't like,) not fitting in, with their foreign languages and their strange ways, stealing our women, leading our children astray, not looking like us, blah, blah, blahdy blah, since probably the romans?

lustful, patriarchal culture

You're drunk posting, aren't you?

The Pigeon

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

No I'm pointing out king zog's central idea here, for some reason this 'foreign' community has to be confronted by radicals for their macho behavior, not as individuals (like radicals actually do) but as a racial community. Where this macho behavior apparently pervades their culture and results in "our" need to prevent "them" from sexually victimizing women and children. Yeah sorry I was being ironic.

bedfordtk

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Fleur

You do know that this has been a consistent theme, them foreigners, coming over here, taking our jobs, or not taking our jobs and scrounging off us, living like (fill in whatever people don't like,) not fitting in, with their foreign languages and their strange ways, stealing our women, leading our children astray, not looking like us, blah, blah, blahdy blah, since probably the romans?

lustful, patriarchal culture

You're drunk posting, aren't you?

This is very true. Around when the daily mail was running it's red scare stories on miliband's dad, a number of old front pages (from 30's or 40's) were put online (showing the proprietor 's pro nazism), there were articles regarding Jewish immigrants and if you replaced Jewish immigrant for Islamic/romanian/Syrian /afghan... It was practically word for word current anti immigrant daily mail scare stories.

Ed

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

So, I literally can't believe what I'm reading here.. I've not read a lot of kingzog's links on Sweden but thought I'd comment on this one about Sicily since I know a bit more about it..
kingzog

In Sicily, they are competing with the Mafia BTW, and it's getting bloody.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546081/Mafia-declares-WAR-migrants-Sicilian-gangster-shoots-innocent-Gambian-head-amid-soaring-levels-migration-Italy-mayor-saying-Sicily-s-capital-no-longer-European.html

But, sure, don't believe any of it, not even the photographs because it's reported by the daily mail.

Firstly, the link itself doesn't say the thing you (or they tbh) are claiming.. I mean first they say the Mafia are "desperate to maintain supremacy after African crime gangs arrived with the migrants - and they are engaged in a deadly turf war" then immediately say "An innocent Gambian man was shot through the head by an assassin".

So this guy, a Gambian student unconnected with criminal activity (as the Daily Mail article says), was shot by a gangster after an argument with some racists. So your point about not believing "even the photographs" makes no sense because the photographs have nothing to do with African gangs.

Secondly, this isn't to say there aren't African gangs in Sicily but the claim they're "competing with the Mafia" is as untrue as it is unimportant (I mean, say they were competing, would you support the Mafia? Is there a 'proletarian' choice of organised crime group?). This article talks about African gangs in Sicily but there with Mafia approval. Now it's not inconceivable that these gangs would sometimes have conflicts with other local Mafia outfits but this happens between different groups of Italian mafiosi anyway so it's hardly a new problem particular to migrants.

Spassmaschine

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

kingzog more or less

"Keep the black economy white!"
"Italian Jobs for Italian Mafiosi!"

Shorty

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Just wanted to add something real quick re:Sweden though it's mostly repetitive of what's already been said. The police/media/ideological background to 'no go areas' has already been made but just wanted to point out that two areas on the police list, Majorna in Gothenburg and Bagarmossen in Stockholm are formerly working class now middle class, lefty, hipster type neighbourhoods, you know the type I'm talking about.

And as for the rape statistics, that's also already been dealt with, so just repeating the same, but it's to do with the wider definition and the higher rate of reporting which has social, cultural, historical and political reasons behind it not least of which is the strength and size of the Swedish feminist movement. But the non reporting of sexual assault is a basic for any discussion around it. Kingzog's going off on one.

RebelRising

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Leaving the polemics aside, I'm very interested in this topic, especially as it screens against the history of population movements through Europe and the periphery.

Can anybody recommend reliable, balanced sources, reporting and/or analysis, on immigration patterns and shifting demographics over the course of the last two decades? I can read German.

RebelRising

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

It's worth pointing out that if someone wants to raise the issue of patriarchal attitudes and practices in Middle Eastern/North African communities (which is a genuine problem), then unironically invoking the language of protecting "our women" is a sure sign for us not to take you seriously at all.

kingzog

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

I think it's ridiculous to deny that this isn't a n issue.

You may not like a source, but that doesn't mean they are a priori wrong. That's a total fallacy.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7557/germany-rape-migrants-crisis

Here is a fairly comprehensive list of the sexual assaults. It contains references and links to source materials. Do you think this is normal for western Europe? Rape by starngers in public? Idk. I don't think it is, even if some reports are exxagerated, it's still outside what's normal. It should be an issue at the very least and not ignored!

My point, the whole time, has been that if the left doesn't respond to this- and I have no idea what an appropriate response would be, preferably one that can simultaneously protect innocent migrants- than the right will swoop in and capitalize on it all, in which case, we're all fucked.

If the left responds, it can take the wind out of the sails of the right. Even just acknowledging it. Definitely not telling women to cover up or be modest, as the politicians in Cologne did, however, that is like a gift to the right.

kingzog

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

And can anyone deny, with a straight face, that North African and Mid Eastern societies are less patriarchical than western Europe? That women have the same status there? That they face no more abuse?

kingzog

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Here is an excerpt from that article:

"Left: At least 30 male migrants assaulted three girls (aged 15, 16 and 17) at the Sophienhof mall in Kiel, Germany, on February 25. Only two of the men were arrested by police. Right: In the first two months of this year alone, there have been dozens of reported cases of migrants sexually assaulting women and children at public swimming pools across Germany. In some areas, authorities have distributed cartoon guides, to "educate" migrants that sexual assault is not acceptable"

If it wasn't an issue, why would they be making these "guides"?

Here is some more, allof these are linked to primary sources":

January 19. A 17-year-old Eritrean migrant attempted to rape an 18-year-old woman in a parking garage in Bad Oldesloe. After police intervened, the man head-butted an officer, who was hospitalized.

January 20. Migrants invaded female showers and changing rooms at two public swimming pools in Leipzig.

January 21. A "black skinned" (schwarz glänzende Hautfarbe) man attempted to rape a 13-year-old girl in Langenfeld. Two migrants assaulted an 18-year-old woman in Dingolfing.

January 22. A migrant (südländisches Äußeres) attempted to rape a 16-year-old girl in Feuerbach district of Stuttgart, and in downtown Stuttgart, four "Arabic looking" (arabisches Aussehen) men sexually assaulted a 23-year-old woman. Migrants harassed women at public swimming pools in Zwickau.

January 23. Migrants sexually assaulted two 11-year-old girls at a public swimming pool in Wilhelmshaven. Two asylum seekers from Afghanistan assaulted two 17-year-old women at a public swimming pool in Straubing. Three 16-year-old migrants from Afghanistan and Syria assaulted two 13-year-old girls at a public swimming pool in Hachenburg.

Also on January 23, a 35-year-old migrant sexually assaulted a woman in a restroom on a train in Düsseldorf. A 22-year-old Syrian migrant exposed himself on a train in Hanover. An 18-year-old Syrian asylum seeker raped a 17-year-old woman in Straubing. Two unidentified men sexually assaulted an 18-year-old woman in Wiesbaden.

You have to Google translate the primary sources, but they are legit

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7557/germany-rape-migrants-crisis

I don't want to get morally indigent, but shame on you guys for turning a blind eye; you're better than this comrades. Don't let political correctness(and dogmatism, quite frankly) destroy your reason and common sense. Entertain, for one minute, that this may indeed be a problem, that this crisis is real and that the well being of these women and girls does matter just as much as any of the migrants, as much as any other human being- imagine if you indeed were a parent of one of these girls! Don't dismiss this shit out of hand based on your own prejudices- and don't deny that the left doesn't have its own unique prejudices, they do.

gram negative

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

you don't realize what issue is, do you? it's not that we are dogmatists, it is that you want to engage in collective punishment. for some reason all migrants are guilty of the actions of individuals, yet that same logic is not applied to sexual assaults carried out by americans or germans or whichever european national. so, migrants as a whole must then be treated differently as a set - how is that libertarian? also, you do realize that if a migrant was originally from syria, that sending them back is way worse of a punishment than any european would get?

"arab-looking"? really? you do know that you can be "arab-looking" and be german, right?

instead of focusing on the "migrant" aspect (beisdes the fact that most migrants are women and children) why not focus on the patriarchy aspect? why is the call for collective punishment, rather than measures to deal with patriarchy and sexual assault?

wojtek

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

What about migrant women and children? Or those back in the perpetators' home countries?
The template nationalist solution is not holistic and is inadequate.

There's are threads on here about berlin, rotherham.

gram negative

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

regarding the first story you quote above: http://m.dw.com/en/the-sophienhof-case-in-kiel-a-chronology-of-a-hysterical-story/a-19093921

before you say i condone what did happen, or i am victim blaming - i am not. the photography and filming of women without consent is wrong. however, only 2 men were involved, and nothing physical happened, which is much different than the source you quote. what you have here is an example of right wing media jumping on a story and then twisting it to suit their ends.

Tyrion

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Why is kingzog's racist shit being allowed a platform here? It's remarkable how little interest they have in sexual assault when it's committed by white Germans and in formulating some sort of collective response to dealing with "the white German community" that one would think is implicated in such assaults if kingzog's logic were to hold. Really vile stuff--would this even be getting serious treatment if a poster posted a bunch of articles about sexual assaults committed by Jews and used this to make a case about the serious Jewish problem being ignored by those PC types?

Kingzog appears to be following in the proud legacy of feminism being aped for racist purposes, a practice with a strong historical resonance in my own country where talk of protecting white women from the supposed sexually violent predilections of black men toward them was used to spur on countless lynch mobs.

Khawaga

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Yup, Kingzog should really just leave this site in shame. Fucking racist.

Fleur

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Kingzog appears to be following in the proud legacy of feminism being aped for racist purposes, a practice with a strong historical resonance in my own county where talk of protecting white women from the supposed sexually violent predilections of black men toward them was used to spur on countless lynch mobs.

Yeah, Kingzog should just stop using sexual assault to advance his ignorant racist agenda. It's just fucking offensive.

Juan Conatz

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

kingzog has been banned for doubling down on anti-immigrant positions.

I let this go on for a bit, because for one, I know this person, or more accurately, I have met them and know of them.

Second, the stuff that kingzog was saying is really common, and I believe that this website is a platform for refuting such garbage, especially, and most importantly, when it is something that so pervades society. I haven't seen much from the far left on the European migrant crisis and the issues that have arisen from it. Hopefully, someone searching the topic on the internet might find this thread, and have their thoughts challenged and changed on this issue.

Sike

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Just want to mention that the Crimethinc website has an excellent article posted a few months back addressing this very topic in a way that neither ignores nor minimizes sexual violence, nor plays into the racist themes typically used by nationalists and capitalists to demonize refugees and their supporters on the left.

Europe: Between Rape and Racism

Steven.

6 years 7 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Just got round to reading this thread now, absolutely unbelievable. So turns out King Zog is actually just a racist piece of shit. Not only that, but is actually an idiot as well.

He doesn't seem to understand that cherry picking a few individual news articles doesn't constitute data about which you can make generalisations about huge chunks of the world's population.

What makes it worse is that he is trying to make the argument that migrants disproportionately commit sexual assault, but actually hasn't managed to find a shred of evidence supporting that. And worse, a bunch of the articles he has posted don't even have anything to do with that: like that one about an innocent Gambian student who was murdered by a white Italian gangster. Or the Rotherham sexual abuse cases, which weren't carried out by "migrants", but were carried out by a group of British Asians with the collaboration of the mostly white police and social services.

And as for the "Rape in Sweden" Wikipedia entry (great source BTW, almost as good as the Mail), it also doesn't have any evidence supporting his claim, as it doesn't say how many rapes were carried out by migrants. It does have a bit of info about convictions and charges for rape, however as there were only 190 convictions out of 6700 rapes, this data is pretty meaningless. And also of course an immigrant raping a stranger is much easier to convict than a native raping someone they know (which are the vast majority of sexual assaults), so of course would be more likely to be convicted - also they may be more likely to be charged or convicted due to race discrimination (see for example historical rape cases in the American deep South). That's not to mention the fact that 80% go unreported in Sweden, and in that sort of case reporting may also be more likely as the survivor may feel more likely to be believed (which is of course a key factor in whether assaults are reported).

I hope it's obvious to anyone who isn't a Daily Mail reader or Trump supporter, but I could Google for 5 min and find far more examples of sexual assault by white non-migrants. Hell, just one link about Jimmy Savile would count for more actual assaults than pretty much every other link King Zog managed to find, as he abused so many women and girls. UK posters will also probably remember the case of John Worboys, the black cab driver who raped up to 100 or more women: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10667340/100-victims-could-sue-in-black-cab-rapist-John-Worboys-case.html (and before King Zog starts getting excited: in the UK black cabs means official taxis. He is white). And that's not to mention the thousands of people abused by white catholic priests…

Finally, I think it should be a new rule on the internet, like Godwins law, that if anyone mentions "no-go zones" it means they have lost the argument and have no idea what they are talking about (I say that as a Londoner living in the centre of one of our so-called "no-go zones" according to Fox News, the Daily Mail and Anders Brevik, who also lives within 500 meters of four strip clubs, two gay bars, about 30 pubs and bars, at least one synagogue…)

Ahmet Muhtar

6 years 6 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

There is nothing racist about the truth. It is what it is. I provided loads of examples of sexual violence by migrants and other Muslims. You can ignore it and claim it's "cherry picking" all you want, but the examples are legion- and growing every day it seems.

The Rotherham scandal was relevant, btw, because the perpetrators were Pakistani, not "British Asians," and the police and Council Estate people's involvement was that they covered it up because they were afraid of being accused of racism for exposing it. It's the exact same mentality here on Libcom; a mentality that puts people in danger by suppressing the truth out of cowardice and ideological dogmatism. It's unfortunate, but these people come from societies steeped in rape culture. we shouldn't excuse them simply because of their national origin, there is simply no excuse for what these people call "Taharroush"

(http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.2374/german-police-it-s-an-arab-rape-game-called-taharrush-and-now-it-has-come-to-europe.html)

Look here, yet another mass sexual assault incident(Taharroush) in Germany. 26 women attacked. the perpetrators,the ones arrested so far, are of Pakistani origin. It is racist to say that this is a serious problem? Is it racist to be vehemently against rape and rape culture? Isn't "the left" supposed to be on the front line against misogyny and oppression of women? Or are we only against it when it suits us? Grow up people.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/01/europe/germany-concert-sex-assaults/

gram negative

6 years 6 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

sexual assaults at concerts has been an issue for a long time: http://www.mtv.com/news/516319/two-woodstock-fans-allegedly-raped-in-mosh-pits/

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/07/30/3465695/a-girl-was-sexual-assaulted-at-a-keith-urban-concert-and-people-watched-and-took-videos/

and there are countless more examples., which has nothing to do with the migration status of the perpetrator so, yes, it is racist to insist that these assaults are happening because of an influx of migrants, rather than the issue being patriarchical behavior in general

Reddebrek

6 years 6 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Ahmet Muhtar

There is nothing racist about the truth. It is what it is. I provided loads of examples of sexual violence by migrants and other Muslims. You can ignore it and claim it's "cherry picking" all you want, but the examples are legion- and growing every day it seems.

The Rotherham scandal was relevant, btw, because the perpetrators were Pakistani, not "British Asians," and the police and Council Estate people's involvement was that they covered it up because they were afraid of being accused of racism for exposing it.

According to the victims that's not actually true, they say the police ignored their compliants because they were in on it.

Look even the Daily Mail's reporting it

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3463517/Police-took-Rotherham-child-sex-abuse-ignored-pleas-victims-claimed-IPCC-watchdog-says-probing-194-complaints-scandal.html

Some are even claimed to have been part of the paedophile sex ring.

Victims say at least one constable molested girls. Others are said to have tipped off the grooming gang's gun-toting ringmasters as to when their South Yorkshire colleagues were closing in.

Oh and many of the victims were "cared for" by the Macgregor's who actively worked with the sex ring.

The men were given access to their victims by trusted local foster carer Karen MacGregor, 58, and Shelley Davies, 40.

MacGregor took in girls - all of whom were white - from children's homes in the area, offering them a safe and comfortable living environment in her 'Hansel and Gretal house'.

But once they were in she pimped them out as prostitutes, making them 'earn their keep' by having sex with a succession of men who were often double their age.

The women, along with the brothers' uncle, Qurban Ali, 53, were all found guilty of child sex offences. They will be sentenced at Sheffield Crown Court tomorrow.


Yeah its funny how most people reposting links to Rotherham leave out the allegations against the police from the victims and that two of the convicted were white females.

So what we have in Rotherham is an ethnic and gender mixed web of predators exploiting vulnerable young girls for profit, with connections to several Coppers. Yeah I'm sure its all PC gone mad.

Your racist narrative is wrong and if you had a shred of decency you would stop misrepresenting it to score points on the internet.

Joseph Kay

6 years 6 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Ahmet Muhtar

The Rotherham scandal was relevant, btw, because the perpetrators were Pakistani, not "British Asians,"

Afaics the convicted were all British citizens, although there's been talk of stripping them of citizenship and deporting them to Pakistan. Two white British women were also convicted (but I guess that doesn't fit the 'Muslims coming over here and raping our women' meme).

Ahmet Muhtar

...and the police and Council Estate people's involvement was that they covered it up because they were afraid of being accused of racism for exposing it.

This is also false. According to the Rotherham Inquiry:

Rotherham Inquiry

Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so.

That is, they were reluctant to talk about "Asian rapists" as opposed to "rapists". One example the report cites (p.92) is that staff were trained not to refer to ethnic identities of perpetrators. This is good practice, and fairly standard across the public sector afaik, and has nothing to do with cover-ups.

On the claim that the police didn't investigate because they feared being called racists:

Rotherham Inquiry

[Dr Heal] also reported in 2006 that young people in Rotherham believed at that time that the Police dared not act against Asian youths for fear of allegations of racism. This perception was echoed at the present time by some young people we met during the Inquiry, but was not supported by specific examples.

I.e. this was an explanation offered by "young people in Rotherham" to explain the police's lack of interest, but the inquiry couldn't find any examples of this happening. The findings about this (p.91) are interesting - the over-reliance on (patriarchal) 'community leaders' seems to have disenfranchised Asian women, for instance. However, it "found no evidence of children’s social care staff being influenced by concerns about the ethnic origins of suspected perpetrators when dealing with individual child protection cases, including CSE."

Aside from it being highly unlikely that the institutionally racist British police refuse to arrest ethnic minorities (e.g. see: incarceration stats), information came out during the trial that South Yorkshire Police officers were passing information and drugs to the gang, and that an officer had taken part in abuse. This corrupt relationship with drug-dealing, abusive gangsters seems a more likely motive for cover-up (it's currently under IPCC investigation).

And bear in mind this is the same South Yorks police responsible for Hillsborough and Orgreave, which they've continued to cover up (e.g. hiring a spin doctor to discredit Liverpool fans during the Hillsborough inquests). It's a force with some of the most egregious and well-documented corruption, cover-ups and collusions in all sorts of shit.

Ahmet Muhtar

It's unfortunate, but these people come from societies steeped in rape culture. we shouldn't excuse them simply because of their national origin

In this case, Britain. And literally nobody is excusing it.

Ahmet Muhtar

(http://speisa BROKEN .com/modules/articles/index.php/item.2374/german-police-it-s-an-arab-rape-game-called-taharrush-and-now-it-has-come-to-europe.html)

Pakistanis aren't Arabs, but they all look the same amirite?

Incidentally, I hadn't heard of this source so I googled it, and it's a newish site that's been accused of running fake stories as clickbait - albeit by bloggers. Edit: The phenomenon seems to be Egyptian, fwiw.

And to reiterate, feminists are organising against sexual violence regardless of who the perpetrators are (e.g. Aus Nahmslos in Germany, Sisters Uncut defending for specialist DV services in UK...), but as usual their voices are being ignored so that abuse canbe instrumentalised to serve other agendas, like this fash clash of civilisations shit.

radicalgraffiti

6 years 6 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

funny how some people will go on endlessly about cases of sexual assaults/rapes by brown men, and claim this is a reason to restrict immigrants, but say nothing about men who actual travel to other countries to abuse children

eg
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/01/richard-huckle-kent-photographer-faces-multiple-life-sentences-malaysian-child-abuse

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/texas-christian-missionary-pleads-guilty-to-sexual-abusing-at-least-5-orphans-in-malawi/

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2016/may-web-only/missionary-donn-ketcham-abuse-bangladesh-mks-abwe-report.html

and theres so many case of white men grooming children in the uk i had to give up finding cases i remember that are like Rotherham but the perpetrates where white

Juan Conatz

6 years 6 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Ahmet Muhtar a.k.a. kingzog has been banned. We usually do not allow banned users to come back with new usernames unless there is some sort of apology and/or retraction of the posts or behavior that got them banned in the first place.

Khawaga

6 years 6 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

I suspected that it was kingzog coming back with this nonsense. Interesting that he chose that user name...

Ed

6 years 6 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Obv glad he's been banned but am actually quite glad he came back briefly as I think Reddebrek's and Joseph Kay's last two comments have been particularly insightful in terms of laying out just how stupid those opinions..

radicalgraffiti

funny how some people will go on endlessly about cases of sexual assaults/rapes by brown men, and claim this is a reason to restrict immigrants, but say nothing about men who actual travel to other countries to abuse children

Yeah, or all the frat house rapes on American uni campuses.. or the Steubenville High School rape case, which basically involved a whole school covering up a (filmed and shared on social media) gang rape for the benefit of their football team.. but obviously no one says 'lets ban American students from the UK'..

Steven.

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Yeah, King Zog/Ahmet Muhtar's views are abhorrent, but I'm also glad he came back because of the excellent responses above.

Also it is funny to see how he continues to show himself as an absolute idiot. Apart from still thinking that anecdotes equal evidence, this is quality:
Ahmet Muhtar

The Rotherham scandal was relevant, btw, because the perpetrators were Pakistani, not "British Asians,"

In UK British Asians get referred to as Pakistani, Bengali, Indian etc based on their family descent, not their nationality. Being that ignorant is like an English person thinking "African-American" means someone with dual American and African citizenship.

But then I guess thinking that Pakistanis are Arabs is pretty damn ignorant as well.

and the police and Council Estate people's involvement was that they covered it up because they were afraid of being accused of racism for exposing it

As people have pointed out, this is absolute nonsense. Police covered up because some of them were involved and paid off by the criminal gangs who perpetrated the abuse, but more generally law enforcement saw this type of abuse as "SOS": Scum on Scum, because of who the victims were (troubled young girls in care).

"Council Estate people" doesn't make any sense, I'm assuming he means social services. But again the allegation that they didn't expose it for fears of racism allegations is something that was made up by the Express and the Mail. The reasons for social services not acting are more complicated, but was partly due to the "SOS" factor, and partly to do with workers feeling or believing young people that these abusers were actually "boyfriends", rather than abusers (thankfully there has been a real seachange in how social workers view child sexual exploitation since this scandal). Some workers didn't specifically mention the ethnicities of the abusers: this is the factor which the media picked on. But it had nothing to do with the reason why the abuse wasn't challenged.

timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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Steven.

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Tim, please remind me, why is it you are posting on a site called libcom?

timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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Reddebrek

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

timthelion

@Steven OK, I'll go then. But are you actually going to respond to what I wrote and tell me what you think is wrong with it?

How about the part were you make all the same ridiculous assumptions (including anecdotes) Kingzog did?

timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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Fleur

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

That is simply not a scene that exists outside of an imigrant context.

You fucking kidding me? Only immigrants sexually harass women & girls? Having read all your posts timthelionland is a weird and fucked up world, a mixture of fantasy, ignorance and utter cluelessness.

timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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Steven.

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

timthelion

So I definitely feel that immigrants need some guidance in adjusting, if they've come from a horrible fucked up country.

What about English sex tourists and paedophiles in Thailand and the Far East? Is England a "horrible fucked up country", or are those countries where mostly non-white people live?

Reddebrek

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

timthelion

@ Reddebrek I shared my personal experience. Yes, it is anecdotal, not statistical but I was simply sharing what I had experienced. These aren't randomly chosen articles from internet news, its a chapter of my life. And this was a chapter which is defined by things happening that were specific to an imigrant dense context. I'm sorry if my life experiences are offensive to you, but that doesn't make my experience less real.

I'm not really bothered about your experiences, I find the conclusions you've drawn from them offensive and on the level of King Zog. Your obliviousness is disappointing but not really surprising.

What you've done is recite a grab bag of times you meet people different from you acting in deplorable ways. But rather than come to the conclusion that gang members and creepy sex tourists are bad you seem to have fixed on their different national origin from you.

Kingzog made the same point about gang's and it was dealt with, other users have dealt with sexual tourism too. You've not brought anything new and your commentary is riddled with chauvinistic bollocks about how migrants need to understand that the Czech Republic(and Europe) is a civilised nation. Even though the national groups you've mentioned all come from nations were the acts you've described are strictly prohibited.

You've told us some tales then came to some strange conclusions, but you haven't actually connected them. The actions of some migrants do not reflect on them as group but that is exactly what you've done. Georgians wrecked a pub? must be Georgian culture to blame. A Kyrgyz gang boss assaulted a man, must be his inability to integrate into Czech culture, (even though he clearly knew it wasn't okay to do if he used his connections to escape punishment). So on, and so on.

timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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jef costello

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

timthelion

At one point I was walking through the town where the school for foreigners was and I saw a group of Saudis walking about 10m behind a pair of girls. The Saudis were wistling and wispering among eachother. I asked them what they were doing, and they said that they were watching the girls asses because the girls were hot and they wanted to masturbate later. That is simply not a scene that exists outside of an imigrant context. It doesn't exist in Saudi Arabia, as all women are covered, and it doesn't normally exist here either. It is a phenomenon which is specific to people who are away from their normal culture. What would you do in such a situation?

Do you really expect us to believe this actually happened?

And oh my word this totally exists in pretty much every context. I think basically every teenage boy ever has done this.

timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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Fleur

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Wouldn't it be nice if people stopped using sexual violence as a metaphor or as a means to advance other agendas, in this case the anti-immigration/racist asshole argument?

factvalue

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Yes, good idea.

factvalue

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

jef costello

I think basically every teenage boy ever has done this.

I didn't.

timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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wojtek

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

jef, if it's so unremarkable why don't you believe Saudis can act in the same manner.

Fleur

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Timthelandlord said:

I'm not racist but....

timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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factvalue

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

timthelion

I want these people to come to western countries and experience freedom. I want them to escape those "fucked up backwards countries"

'These people' ffs? Which people? What freedom?

timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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Serge Forward

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Tim, as we're onto anecdotes, I actually know quite a few Saudis, both male and female. While I accept they may often hold views I might personally find highly questionable or objectionable, I have never encountered that sort of behaviour from the many Saudis I've had dealings with over the last ten years or so. While some Saudi men may well have behaved in the way you describe, the same behaviour could feasibly be attributed to a certain type of man from literally any nationality or ethnic group.

timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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jef costello

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

wojtek

jef, if it's so unremarkable why don't you believe Saudis can act in the same manner.

I don't believe that Tim went up to a group of Saudis and had a chat about the fact that they were looking at women's arses.

timthelion

6 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

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Fleur

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

I had to prove to them that they were losers for walking 10 meters back, rather than going up and talking to them like normal people would.

So it would be OK if this group of men went up to these women and hassled them on the street? Is that what "normal" people do?

Steven.

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

So this is great. Tim is an anarchist, and an immigrant. He recognises that not all immigrants have a problem with sexual harassment etc, and that some people in their own countries do also. However he wants a government program to train all migrants how to treat women.

If you thought this would be a good idea, wouldn't it be a better idea to target it at all people who have problems with sexual harassment, rather than just migrants, like yourself?

And do you think you should be sent on training to not abuse women, because you are an immigrant?

Fleur

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Thing is, I'm not seeing any kind of evidence that Tim is an anarchist.

Steven.

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Fleur

Thing is, I'm not seeing any kind of evidence that Tim is an anarchist.

No I completely get that, that's kind of the point…

Ed

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

I think the recent case of Brock Allen Turner getting six months jail time after he was literally caught during the act of raping an unconscious woman is (yet another) example of how 'our' culture and institutions work to support rapists.

But no, the problem is migrants who sexually assault 'our' women because their culture makes excuses for it and their institutions don't punish it.. jesus fucking wept..

Worth reading on the topic:
The Horrible Things the Stanford Rapist's Friends and Family Said in His Defense
The Powerful Letter The Stanford Survivor Read To Her Attacker

Edit to add:
I know the response here will be 'well, that's just one guy'. I just want to point out that earlier I linked to an article that said frat house members are 3x more likely to rape than non-frat house members. Yet there is no discussion about 'banning/deporting American frat house members from Europe to protect women'. Yet there is exactly that discussion about migrants.

Spikymike

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

We are all for more integration between workers from different parts of the world and different cultural backgrounds but try to pursue that through promoting in ideas and practice independent class struggle across the divisions and barriers that capitalism and the state foster. We cannot rely on or expect the state to advance that integration other than in ways that aim to make us more pliable workers and consumers.
timthelion is not an anarchist or a communist as generally understood on this site but you don't have to be either of those separately or in combination to post on this site as far as I'm aware. timthelion expresses it seems to me quite honestly many of the confused and poorly thought out ideas that many of our fellow workers do every day but who wouldn't touch this site in a million years. They draw wrong conclusions from limited personal experiences and anecdotal evidence.The regular anarchist and communist posters on this thread have made strenuous efforts to correct timthelion's conclusions in ways that I couldn't summon the energy to match. It seems reasonable to give timethelion the time to argue their point of view out but the admins should not be censored for putting a limit on that at some point.

Auld-bod

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

I agree with Spikymike #84.

Pretty sure we’ve all met people who identify as anarchist/communist/socialist, who know little of what the labels mean or even imply. An acquaintance told me they were very sociable. Her husband agreed, at university he’d help found a group of Scottish republican socialists, and had always voted SNP.
I think timthelion a bit more clued-up than that.

Steven.

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

timthelion

as for your interpretation of my statement that some countries like Katar and Saudi Arabia are "horrible fucked up coutries", I don't mean that their people are fucked up, but I DO think that their cultures and their governments are fucked up. Neither of those countries allow their citizens to visit libcom.org.

just remembered that he said this. We get around 300 visits per month from Saudi Arabia, and about 100 per month from Qatar. So don't know where you got that from.

Reddebrek

6 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Steven.

just remembered that he said this. We get around 300 visits per month from Saudi Arabia, and about 100 per month from Qatar. So don't know where you got that from.

It's also rather racist to lump the two nations together as they're pretty different. Qatar is a lot like the UK really, it has an elected government and a constitutional monarchy and its female population does have significantly more rights and opportunities than in Saudi Arabia. It still cracks down on dissent and treats poor foreign workers abysmally and has corporal punishment on its books (though the UK still flogged people until the 1970's in its overseas territories, and France the cradle of reason and enlightenment beheaded people up to 1977)

The UAE recently updated its anti discrimination laws http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/united-arab-emirates-introduces-discriminatory-anti-discrimination-law/#gs.ATK7_gk

While I don't think any regime in the region is particularly positive, pretending they're monolithic just shows incredible ignorance.

Juan Conatz

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

FYI kingzog/Ahmet Muhtar, who got banned because of his posts in this thread, continued his slide to the far right and was recently seen participating in a public outreach action of Identity Evropa's. For people who don't know, IE is an American fascist/neo-Nazi organization started by Iraq War vet, Nathan Domingo.

Agent of the I…

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

That same poster was pretending to be concerned about the "historical connections" between anarcho-syndicalism and fascism, and positioning himself as some true orthodox marxist in the comments section under akai's blog piece titled 'Anarchosyndicalism against fascism'.

Steven.

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Completely unsurprising that he is now a proud fascist. What is more surprisingly is that he didn't realise that he was a fascist piece of shit back then

no1

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

doesn't the username kingZOG suggest he was a fascist from the start?

Khawaga

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

doesn't the username kingZOG suggest he was a fascist from the start?

Damn, I never really even made that connection until you pointed it out... it's so bleeding obvious.

Juan Conatz

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

no1

doesn't the username kingZOG suggest he was a fascist from the start?

If you mean because of the acronym 'Zionist Occupied Givernment', I thought so too back then, but then I checked and it, as well as 'Ahmet Muhtar' seemed to refer to Zog I of Albania. I know nothing about this guy, but don't think I looked into further.

jef costello

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Khawaga

doesn't the username kingZOG suggest he was a fascist from the start?

Damn, I never really even made that connection until you pointed it out... it's so bleeding obvious.

I thought that it was a joke.

Steven.

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Yeah, I thought it was ironic, but then ironically he became an actual fascist

Jim

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

This guy was confronted by Seattle residents last week after fly-posting in downtown and ended up sprinting away, leaving the young Identity Europa activist he was with to be grilled by anti-fascists. His young friend grassed him up completely and was utterly cowardly, telling the anti-fascists everything he could to avoid a beating. I guess when you get left behind by someone loyalty ends. If these two are the best Identity Europa have to offer in Seattle then smashing them off the streets should be easy for US comrades.

Mike Harman

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

He was quick to the mark on the Michael Schmidt thread too: https://libcom.org/forums/general/ak-press-says-michael-schmidt-fascist-25092015

jura

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

no1, I don't think so. It's a reference to the Albanian king Zog I of the interwar period.

edit: Nevermind, hadn't seen other posts mentioning this.

no1

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Juan Conatz

no1

doesn't the username kingZOG suggest he was a fascist from the start?

If you mean because of the acronym 'Zionist Occupied Givernment', I thought so too back then, but then I checked and it, as well as 'Ahmet Muhtar' seemed to refer to Zog I of Albania. I know nothing about this guy, but don't think I looked into further.

interesting - thanks
P.S. According to Wikipedia, Zog was dependent on the support of Benito Mussolini's government, ironically.

Reddebrek

4 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

When I saw this had updated after so long and remembered how it turned out, I braced myself for something pretty ugly. Got to be honest I wasn't expecting this.

Jim

This guy was confronted by Seattle residents last week after fly-posting in downtown and ended up sprinting away, leaving the young Identity Europa activist he was with to be grilled by anti-fascists. His young friend grassed him up completely and was utterly cowardly, telling the anti-fascists everything he could to avoid a beating. I guess when you get left behind by someone loyalty ends. If these two are the best Identity Europa have to offer in Seattle then smashing them off the streets should be easy for US comrades.

Its a shame he continued his slide, but its good to see him fail so badly at it. Well done to the Seattle community.

Entdinglichung

3 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

https://pugetsoundanarchists.org/with-friends-like-these-beacon-hill-white-nationalist-organizers-exposed/

Spencer Sturdevant’s posts on Left-Communist oriented Facebook groups and websites such as Libcom.org started to take an ironic and confusing turn. Easily and unfortunately brushed off by those around him as a sort of twisted humor, the real public defamation began in 2015 when Spencer Sturdevant started to post outright support for Trump and virulent anti-immigrant and refugee stances. During this time Cyan Quinn repeatedly claimed that his Right leaning politics were a misunderstanding to his old friends on the Left.