Migrants & sexual violence

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Juan Conatz
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Apr 20 2016 00:49
Migrants & sexual violence

admin the poster 'kingzog' on this thread was banned due to their comments on it. They have continued their slide to the far right and were recently seen participating in a public outreach action of Identity Evropa's. IE is an American fascist/neo-Nazi organization started by Iraq War vet, Nathan Domingo.

Splitting this discussion from 'Towards an anarchist perspective of the 2016 primaries'.

Trigger warning: discussion of sexual violence

kingzog wrote:
Juan, same thing in Sweden. Massive welfare state. Lots of refugees, especially now. They take on average 10 years to get jobs, and are basically so marginalized in Swedish society, they are hostile to it and the areas they live in, public housing, are "no-go zones" for police. So social democracy isnt really cutting it.

Here in Seattle, the East African refugees(be interesting to compare it to Minneapolis' situation) have a slightly easier time finding jobs, as the US has more low wage jobs than sweden, but currently they have a huge gang and crime problem and are just not integrated into society, even tho many are 2nd generation now.

Cooked wrote:

Kingzog description fits the prevailing media narrative in sweden. The police claim certain areas to be no go zones for them as they occasionally get attacked by the kids as they go there. They are also claiming some areas lost to organised crime.

The swedish labour market is hugely discriminatory against immigrants and the big cities are amongst the most geographically/racially segregated in europe.

Of course the police is the police and they have their own agenda with the information they put out. Using terms like no go areas is hugely exaggerated and rubbish. People without first hand experience actually believe the media garbage. Despite an incredible retreat of services and support from the Stockholm "suburbs" they are generally quite good places to live for families.

I hope everyone on libcom agrees that "social democracy isnt really cutting it." but read some residue of scandi-nostalgia above. That stuff has to end.

fingers malone wrote:
Yeah I read that and thought "what crap".

I live in what is supposed to be one of those police no go area public housing hell holes in England. I am the only all-white household on my landing (oh, the horror). All the neighbours talk to me and help me with minor neighbourly things, like charging up my phone when I exploded all the sockets trying to do a repair. The Algerian lady on the block opposite makes me fantastic food, homemade bread, pastries, everything, and forgives me for taking ages to bring the tupperwares back.

"Not integrated into society" who says what's integrated? Who says what's society?

kingzog wrote:
Cooked, I don't think youre being honest, or you are, frankly, deluded. There are numerous stories and videos of migrants riotting, throwing stones, so on. I expect there will be more. Regardless of the motive or reason, or perhaps even a justification it is happening.

What's more, violent crime, and sexual crime has skyrocketed; there was a case of a 10 year old boy being raped even, the police had to reseque him from a mob. In some jurisdictions, they segregate buses so that children are not put in harm's way- evidence of this is freely available on the net.

Point is, these are facts we simply cannot dismiss. The migrants come from very patriarchical societies which never experienced a feminist movement, or really any liberal movent at all- again, this is the reality we must face.. And if we don't respond, then the working class will turn hard right. That's the simply truth.

Cooked wrote:
kingzog wrote:
Cooked, I don't think youre being honest, or you are, frankly, deluded. There are numerous stories and videos of migrants riotting, throwing stones, so on. I expect there will be more. Regardless of the motive or reason, or perhaps even a justification it is happening.

What's more, violent crime, and sexual crime has skyrocketed; there was a case of a 10 year old boy being raped even, the police had to reseque him from a mob. In some jurisdictions, they segregate buses so that children are not put in harm's way- evidence of this is freely available on the net.

Point is, these are facts we simply cannot dismiss. The migrants come from very patriarchical societies which never experienced a feminist movement, or really any liberal movent at all- again, this is the reality we must face.. And if we don't respond, then the working class will turn hard right. That's the simply truth.

Whats the fuck are you on about!?! You need to get your info from other sources. Secondly you missed my point which was to show the complete failure of social democracy whilst still disagreeing with the sensationalist media narrative. You however turned out to be so far off the rails I'm lost for words.

Khawaga wrote:
Agree with Cooked. From reading Kingzog's posts lately, I get the impression he'll be doing that classic old Trotskyite to neo-conservative move...
kingzog wrote:
I'm not a troskyite.

I'm not going to get indignant, but, can we truly deny the evidence of an ongoing sexual assault crisis in Europe perpetrated by the migrants? Can we deny it all together? Is any level tolerable? Do they get a pass because they aren't white? Do the lives and well being of the women assaulted matter at all? Is it off limits to discuss the political implications or do we simply stick out heads in the sandM

kingzog wrote:
....obviously social democracy has failed. But do we blame social democracy for rape? It's insane to me how the left goes on and on about western rape culture but then in the face of this.....we go silent. That's a capitualtion and a very dangerous one indeed.
Juan Conatz wrote:
I think the alarmist stuff about migrants and sexual assualt is more or less racist scapegoating. I haven't seen any evidence from non-far right sources that migrants committ sexual assualt at a greater rate than the general population. Reminds me of Trump's remarks about Mexicans or the historical KKK scare tactic of saying that free black men would go wild on the street and attack white women.
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Apr 20 2016 00:56
jef costello wrote:
I am wondering if Kingzog is an ironic name.
There is a huge amount of hyperbole of the rapes supposedly committed by immigrants, it turns out when you have the right perpetrators and the right victims the police will believe rape reports.
kingzog wrote:
Alarmist? Over 500 women reported sexual assaults in Germany from Migrants. Is the right wing media playing this up? Well yeah. But local news sources and police reports are the primary sources. Look it up guys. But most importantly, believe women!

Do they "only" commit rape at the same rate as others? Idk, do you know how common rape was in Sweden before mass immigration? Did you know it's now up there with South Africa? Dare to look at Germany? You best believe this really is happening. Just because it doesn't fit your narrative doesn't mean it's not true. 75 percent of the migrants are young men, not families or children for women. Most arent even from Syria Look it up.

Also, they are bringing sectarian strife with them. Recently Kurds and Turks attacked each other in the streets- in Sweden I believe. These are not isolated incidents. And just because only the right wing media are reporting them doesn't mean the victims aren't real.

kingzog wrote:
Seriously, I really don't understand why the left is unable to grapple with this- everyone in Europe knows about it. People all over the US, regular ppl I talk to even, are learning about it too. If the left denies it, then we really look like pieces of you-know-what. Especially considering how the left is supposedly against rape culture. I'm sorry, but grow a backbone ppl.

Left wing pundits in Germany and Sweden have regressed into victim blaming. I kid you not. Please, dong stoop to that level, that'll be the collapse of the left and the capitualtion to the right. Mark my words.

Juan Conatz wrote:
You kinda post like Donald Trump speaks. Even the content is borderline similar.

Are you going to provide some evidence of what I asked before? If it is so well known, it should be easy to find.

kingzog wrote:
You have hands. Use Google.
Juan Conatz wrote:
Nah, you're the one coming to a libertarian communist board with far-right narratives. Provide the evidence or shut up.
kingzog wrote:
But if you really can't be bothered:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3247831/Rape-child-abuse-rife-overcrowded-asylum-centres-huge-surge-migrants-pushes-Germany-s-services-breaking-point-claim-womens-rights-groups-politicians.html

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/cologne-is-every-day-europes-rape-epidemic/news-story/e2e618e17ad4400b5ed65045e65e141d
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden

We also know, for a fact, that most rapes go unreported for obvious reasons. It's likely much worse than reported.

And we know western countries like to cover up this sort of thing:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal

The fact is, this is undeniable and it is a major problem. The fact is, these men come from brutal societies where sexual abuse and misogyny are way above the western norm. This is why they have intensive integration classes about women's rights for these immigrants. To point this out isn't racist, but to deny it is to excuse rape culture at its worst.

kingzog wrote:
I know you guys think you're on the right side and have the good, moral/ethical high ground, however, I think you can't really see what's actually happening here. I know most of you don't have kids -don't have daughters. For most childless people, not all, but a lot, they have this myopia; they don't have "skin in the game", they don't have to really,
Quote:
honestly

think about the future, about consequences. That sounds condescending, I know, but if you really thought in those terms, you'd understand why lots of people are very concerned about the violence, rape, assaults and so on

Quote:
some

of the migrants have brought with them. If you had a daughter, you'd look at this very differently, especially a young daughter who will grow up amidst all this...

Imagine what the father and mother of this 10 year old victim think:

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2015/10/07/charges-mpls-man-accused-of-raping-10-year-old-girl/

Or the parents of the10 year old boy in Vienna raped by an Iraqi migrant:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/belgium-afghan-migrant-16-rapes-worker-asylum-centre-1545057

The issue is the societies the migrant

Quote:
men

come from. Pakistan, for instance, according to human rights watch has a gang rape every 1-2 hours and 70-90percent of women face some form of domestic abuse.

And you wonder why Trump or the Sweden Democrats or Marine Le Pen are increasingly popular? Its quite obvious. But the real question for us is, how does the radical left respond? Because so far I think the denial and downplaying isn't working.

Spassmaschine wrote:
kingzog wrote:
The issue is the societies the migrant
Quote:
men

come from. Pakistan, for instance, according to human rights watch has a gang rape every 1-2 hours and 70-90percent of women face some form of domestic abuse.

Well if crude statistics are your thing, in the country your profile says you come from, the gang rape rate is once every 30 mins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_rape#United_States

So apply your bullshit arguments to yourself: Why are you ignoring the American rape crisis, why can't you really see what's happening here...denial...downplaying...etc.

Does it occur to you that if you fucked off all your racist nonsense you might realise rape is a abhorrently widespread, indeed global problem? Then maybe you could consider why rapes by migrants are getting such publicity when the general modus operandi of our society is to ignore rape culture entirely?

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Apr 20 2016 00:58
gram negative wrote:
first, kingzog, i'd definitely agree that the middle east and north africa have huge (and complex and varied) issues with patriarchy and mosogyny; however, the west is also guilty of this as well.

everything that you have said about migrants, however, is completely garbage anti-immigrant nonsense, that also happens to not be true.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372

that article states that sweden's high rape rate is due to a high level of reporting - an issue in many countries, including western ones, and the definition used for what constitutes sexual assault, which is very broad. i'm sure that you will dismiss this as just more propaganda hiding the truth. that claim doesn't even pass the smell test and would go against the foundational principles of hierarhical society, which are predicated on the repression of minority groups. have you been to the US? if there was an epidemic of sexual assualt tied solely to immigrants, it would be blasting from every media source.

http://scholar.googleusercontent.com/scholar?q=cache:H20EY7e_fu0J:scholar.google.com/+baldwin+edwards+crime&hl=en&as_sdt=0,9&as_vis=1

this paper describes myths surrounding migrants in greece, which has a much higher proportion of migrants than sweden. surprise! migrants are not any more likely to commit violent crimes or sexual assaults, but do commit crimes against property, commit forgeries, and beg more often - i wonder why that is????????? also, migrants are treated more repressively by the state. the paper concludes with the baffling idea that issue of crime with migrants is due to their marginalization and poverty.

also, i don't know how you can be a communist or anarchist and take part in this kind of cultural scapegoating - it is contradictory to any sort of prefigurative politics and condones the state's repression of minority groups. what would you like to be done in response to this issue? police repression? the enforcement of borders that support the power of individual national capital? deportation? my city in the US has a big problem with street harrassment and has many colleges, which i'm sure you know have high rates of sexual assault - should we deport all of those people to wherever they came from? what about the vast majority of rapes that are carried out by men who know the woman involved - send them back from whence they came? why aren't you saying that?

i also find the european concerns over immigration to be hilarious, because european immigration to my parents' places of origin led to the extermination of over 90% of the indigenous populations, rape as a tool of war and terror on a mass scale, the imposition of slavery and plantation economies and on an on an on... but i guess that was in the past so it is different?

finally, yr weird concern trolling about yr daughter almost smacks of parody - i mean, can you get any more patriarchical than worrying about the control of "your female's" sexual activity?

Joseph Kay wrote:
Fwiw on Rotherham, the obscured part of the scandal was that several cops were colluding with the gang - who were apparently local gangsters/drug dealers as well as kidnapping/grooming/abusing kids - including accessing the Police National Database to feed them intelligence, and tipping them off about investigations.

Somehow the cops managed to spin their collusion with organised crime and abuse as 'we'd have nicked 'em if it wasn't for political correctness making brown people untouchable', and the line's been parotted by everyone from the fash to Zizek (an ever-shrinking distance between those though tbf).

Unfortunately, institutionalised abuse and cover-ups are a British tradition up to the highest level. As for the left not talking about/responding to e.g. the Cologne assaults, this is another Breitbart talking point, and false. As usual, feminists are organising around sexual violence (e.g. #ausnahmslos/#noexcuses), and people are ignoring them to pen a hundred 'where are the feminists now??111' dogwhistle pieces.

Cooked wrote:
Kingzog this is really pissing me off. This shit should not stand on libcom. (sorry for the offtopic but can't remain unanwered)

You are arguing with anectodal evidence from anti-immigration sources and fantasizing about who you are talking to. I have a daughter and I live in a suburb of Stockholm (Stockholm is segregated so that most immigrants live in the suburbs) My building has about 30% foreign born adults.

I'm not fucking afraid for my daughters well being due to immigrants!

Gram I actually think sweden has considerably larger per capita immigrant population than Greece. Perhaps the recent horrors have completely turned the stats over but I doubt it.

gram negative wrote:
Cooked wrote:
Gram I actually think sweden has considerably larger per capita immigrant population than Greece. Perhaps the recent horrors have completely turned the stats over but I doubt it.

you are right that sweden has a much higher number of migrants, but this graph:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Share_of_non-nationals_in_the_resident_population,_1_January_2014_%28%25%29_YB15.png

says the proportion is similar, with greece having slightly more, and more who are not from other EU states. this is 2014, so this may be out of date with 2015

mods - do yall want to move these posts?

Fleur
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Apr 20 2016 02:02

Having read Kingzog's posts recently and not so recently, it is abundantly clear that they have an abysmal grasp of gender and sexual politics and would probably do well by getting better educated, try listening to people who have actual direct experience and stop getting information from such credible sources as the Daily Mail. ffs, using an epidemic of rape by migrants manufactured by the reactionary media to make some really shit point about immigration. How about listening to people who actually live in the parts of Europe that you are referencing to make some dodgy racist argument?

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Apr 20 2016 03:03

Also, looking through kingzog's post again, he includes a link to a case here in Minneapolis where a Somali man committed a sexual assault on a young girl. As if this single event is supposed to be some definitive proof that immigrants are more likely to commit sexual assault.

This is the same kind of stuff that the racist anti-immigrant speaking circuit in the rural parts of the state harp on and on about, as well as the laughable 'no-go zones'. This stuff would be funny, if it wasn't actually dangerous. It creates an environment where a woman can have a bottle smashed on her face in an Applebees for not speaking English and a coffee shop gets burned down because it is predominately serves Somali people. It creates such rabid hate that every part of your mundane existence is aggressively challenged by foaming-at-the-mouth white Midwesterners.

Again, I don't think you know what you're talking about. You are literally just grabbing links from ridiculous right-wing sites and then saying that it proves something. The only thing you're proving is that you're susceptible, like many people are, to the worst kinds of demonization.

kingzog
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Apr 22 2016 23:00

Everyone knows rape is a serious issue in the US. But in Sweden, before mass imigratio. In 70's it was very low. Europe has always had far far less crime, violent crime than the US. So to compare the US to Europe and say "well now they're just at our level now" isn't really much of an argument.

Rape in Sweden has increased by 1400% since the 70's. The UN has admitted that up to 80% of migrants are young men. Look it up. You all have Google. This is not "made up" by the media simply because you don't agree with the media sources doesn't disappear the numbers of women who report this stuff. Look up how many women report these crimes in Germany alone. It's abnormal for their society- less so, admittedly, for the US unfortunately.

And no, it's not "patriarchical" to be worried about ones child being raped- or for their safety in general. Rape is not "sexual activity" as Gram Negative wrote. I mean what sort of sick and twisted logic is that?

Does this reality give license to exact revenge on all migrants? Of course not, I don't believe that at all. Does this mean we ban all muslims? I never said that. I'm just offering some reality to people with their heads in the sand. Just look up the Cologne rapes and rapes in Sweden, also sexual assault in general. Youd have to totally be in denial to...well, deny this.

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Apr 22 2016 23:16

Kingzog, I don't know where to start, but I'll go for just this one sentence for now.

Quote:
Rape in Sweden has increased by 1400% since the 70's

Wikipedia:

Quote:
The Swedish police record each instance of sexual violence in every case separately, leading to an inflated number of cases compared to other countries.Sweden also has a comparatively wide definition of rape. This means that more sexual crimes are registered as rape than in most other countries For example, in 2005 Sweden reformed its sex crime legislation and made the legal definition of rape much wider, which led to a marked increase in reports.

Additionally, the Swedish police have improved the handling of rape cases, in an effort to decrease the number of unreported cases. For this reason, large-scale victimisation surveys have been presented by criminologists as a more reliable indicator of rape prevalence.An EU-wide survey on sexual violence against women, published the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA) in 2014, showed Sweden was only third highest, below Denmark and Finland and a previous assessment by Brå have placed Sweden at an average level among European nations.

According to the FRA study there's a strong correlation between higher levels of gender equality and disclosure of sexual violence. This, and a greater willingness among Swedish women to report rape in relationships, may also explain the relatively high rates of reported rape in Sweden, which has a long-standing tradition of gender equality policy and legislation, as well as an established women's movement, and has been ranked as the number one country in sex equality

Fleur
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Apr 22 2016 23:17

commieprincess:

Quote:
Kingzog, I don't know where to start

Are you absolutely sure you want to go down the route with arguing with this guy? I'm not trying to dissuade you but I have a feeling that nothing good will come of it.

kingzog
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Apr 22 2016 23:19

As far as no-go zones in sweden, it's not laughable at all. Unless you think it's a conspiracy? Look at the graphs and statistics from here:

http://fof.se/tidning/2015/5/artikel/darfor-okar-de-kriminella-gangens-makt

Maybe these stats are fake? Maybe all the people collecting them, the reporters, cops, social workers, and so on are together in this conspiracy to make up crime. But it's not hard to see this as true. These immigrants turn to crime because they have no skills and Sweden is a society which require a high degree of education and skill to find a job and even then, it's a tight market. So they form organized crime gangs. In Sicily, they are competing with the Mafia BTW, and it's getting bloody.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546081/Mafia-declares-WAR-migrants-Sicilian-gangster-shoots-innocent-Gambian-head-amid-soaring-levels-migration-Italy-mayor-saying-Sicily-s-capital-no-longer-European.html

But, sure, don't believe any of it, not even the photographs because it's reported by the daily mail. Well, what I see here is that they love this stuff because it happens to fit their worldview- right or wrong. But it doesn't fit the liberal media's worldview, so they ignore it or excuse it- as you all have been doing here. Effectively, this cedes the high ground to the right as they are the only ones addressing it.

kingzog
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Apr 22 2016 23:21

These reports are just that, reports. If these stories were more along the lines of that rape hoax in the Rolling Stone, format wise, I might question them a bit more.

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Apr 22 2016 23:30

Yup, Kingzog's gone full reactionary neo-conservative on this one. This sort of argumentation is what Anders Behring Breivik spouted in his manifesto.

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Apr 22 2016 23:39
kingzog wrote:
Everyone knows rape is a serious issue in the US. But in Sweden, before mass imigratio. In 70's it was very low. Europe has always had far far less crime, violent crime than the US. So to compare the US to Europe and say "well now they're just at our level now" isn't really much of an argument.

If you're addressing me, I'm not the one who compared Sweden to the U.S. In fact, you're the one who was using examples of incidents in the U.S. to "prove" your point.

Anyway, I was wondering when I would see one of these people whose political identity is more wrapped up in being contrarian move from the IWW, to the ultraleft, and then finally to the right-wing. Looks like it's kingzog.

You still haven't provided any evidence of your claims. Instead of offering proof, you, like the conspiracy nutjobs that infest the comment sections of Youtube videos, tell us to "Google it". The first sign that an argument on the Internet has no credible backing to it is when the person making the argument tells others to do the research that backs up what they are saying. That's not how it works.

Rather than providing evidence, you've instead link-dumped a random assemblage of of high-profile incidents around the world that involve predominantly Muslim immigrants and sexual assault. That proves nothing.

That would be like if I linked to articles about sexual violence at Woodstock '99, Oktoberfest in Germany, the Wikileaks guy and the UK Socialist Workers Party and then used that to say that you, kingzog, as a white male, are predisposed to sexual assault compared to men of different ethnicity. It's absolutely ridiculous. And then to try to pass off this naked xenophobia as some sort of feminism is outrageously offensive. You are no feminist.

I did look up some of your sources. For example, your figure of a 1400% increase in sexual assaults in Sweden since the 1970s. Most of what I found were sites associated with David Horowitz, Ann Coulter, Alex Jones and a think-tank run by John fucking Bolton from the Bush II administration. Sorry if I take their "news" with a large block of salt.

Fleur
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Apr 22 2016 23:48

The Rolling Stone debacle was a case of Rolling Stone fucking up and imagining they could go to print without verifying sources to a standard of proof they could demonstrate without opening themselves up to threat of libel, something they could never do as a journalism piece and something they did for the sake of a shocking story. As for it being a hoax, it may have been. On the other hand it can also be interpreted as how difficult it is to cover such stories. Survivors almost never give a textbook coherent account and it's one of the reasons why convictions are so hard to get in court. Rolling Stone had no option legally other than retract the story and if it was a case of bad journalism they threw a woman under the bus to cover their asses. But there again we've covered all this in all the why are women so whiney about rape and so pathetic victims that they need trigger warnings and safe spaces threads which went down on here last year, threads that this poster participated in. Makes it kind of ironic that he's now using rape as a mechanism to get his racist point across.

Edit: As Juan said:

Quote:
And then to try to pass off this naked xenophobia as some sort of feminism is outrageously offensive. You are no feminist.
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Apr 23 2016 00:08

so, you may dismiss the interpretations of swedeb's rape rate, though you do not offer any counter-explanation that makes sense. what hierarchically organized state has looked the over way to downplay the actions of a low-status, minority group in such a situation. what is the conspiracy?

also, you should really look at the homicide/murder rate, which has much more commonality amongst states (for a variety of reasons). i used that google thingy you mentioned and found this website https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/crime-statistics/reported-offences.html which seems to be some office of the swedish state committed to crime prevention. if you look at the stats it is true that what they call sexual offences and rapes hve increased per 100000, but the increase closely tracks the 2005 redefinitions. the murder rate per 100000 has hovered around 2 for almost 40 years! none of your extraordinary are backed up by the evidence.

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Apr 23 2016 00:51

that daily mail article is hilarious - did you even read it? the man who was shot is a Gambian immigrant, and has nothing to do with gangs - i guess we can thank the naturally less bloodthirsty tendencies of the european shooter for somehow missing any vital organs after shooting him in the head. what is your point with that article? would brutal violence perpetrated by mini state rackets like the mafia be better if the face that is shaking you down is fair?

aren't you american? wasn't this same shit said about the southern euorpeans, including sicilian immigrants to the US? new jersey is filled with no-go zones

radicalgraffiti
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Apr 23 2016 00:46

if you think of the daily mail as fascist propaganda you should have a more or less accurate view of there coverage of anything involving immigrants

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Apr 26 2016 01:52

What should we westerners do about this? We are clearly dealing with a patriarchal civilization that does not respect our women or our children. Of course kingzog is not supporting wholesale exclusion of these criminals, that would be too easy a view to take. But the problem is there and our liberal society does not want to face it. We have to do something, as kingzog is rightly pointing out. These young men who are becoming criminals in our civilization, and corrupting it with its barbaric culture, need to be dealt with somehow. But kingzog also believes in helping the migrants, because like the jihadists these criminals are holding the rest of the migrant community hostage. I wonder how we'll be able to separate out the chaff and keep the west safe from this invasion.

radicalgraffiti
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Apr 26 2016 02:35

well we could start by burning the mail to the ground I suppose

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Apr 26 2016 03:03
The Pigeon wrote:
What should we westerners do about this? We are clearly dealing with a patriarchal civilization that does not respect our women or our children. Of course kingzog is not supporting wholesale exclusion of these criminals, that would be too easy a view to take. But the problem is there and our liberal society does not want to face it. We have to do something, as kingzog is rightly pointing out. These young men who are becoming criminals in our civilization, and corrupting it with its barbaric culture, need to be dealt with somehow. But kingzog also believes in helping the migrants, because like the jihadists these criminals are holding the rest of the migrant community hostage. I wonder how we'll be able to separate out the chaff and keep the west safe from this invasion.

I think we should call out and condemn anti-migrant scapegoating based on racist tropes and fears like your post. The general acceptance of these disgusting views, demonstrated by their occurrence even on a communist site, is more of a danger than anything migrants represent.

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Apr 26 2016 03:06
The Pigeon wrote:
our women

....lol

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Apr 26 2016 03:20

I'm merely flushing out kingzog's posts. All he seems to be saying is there is a victimized West being invaded by a lustful, patriarchal culture that "we" have to face up to, as if european governments, and every other government, were ours.

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Apr 26 2016 03:29

You do know that this has been a consistent theme, them foreigners, coming over here, taking our jobs, or not taking our jobs and scrounging off us, living like (fill in whatever people don't like,) not fitting in, with their foreign languages and their strange ways, stealing our women, leading our children astray, not looking like us, blah, blah, blahdy blah, since probably the romans?

Quote:
lustful, patriarchal culture

You're drunk posting, aren't you?

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The Pigeon
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Apr 26 2016 03:48

No I'm pointing out king zog's central idea here, for some reason this 'foreign' community has to be confronted by radicals for their macho behavior, not as individuals (like radicals actually do) but as a racial community. Where this macho behavior apparently pervades their culture and results in "our" need to prevent "them" from sexually victimizing women and children. Yeah sorry I was being ironic.

bedfordtk
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Apr 26 2016 10:38
Fleur wrote:
You do know that this has been a consistent theme, them foreigners, coming over here, taking our jobs, or not taking our jobs and scrounging off us, living like (fill in whatever people don't like,) not fitting in, with their foreign languages and their strange ways, stealing our women, leading our children astray, not looking like us, blah, blah, blahdy blah, since probably the romans?
Quote:
lustful, patriarchal culture

You're drunk posting, aren't you?

This is very true. Around when the daily mail was running it's red scare stories on miliband's dad, a number of old front pages (from 30's or 40's) were put online (showing the proprietor 's pro nazism), there were articles regarding Jewish immigrants and if you replaced Jewish immigrant for Islamic/romanian/Syrian /afghan... It was practically word for word current anti immigrant daily mail scare stories.

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Ed
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Apr 26 2016 18:03

So, I literally can't believe what I'm reading here.. I've not read a lot of kingzog's links on Sweden but thought I'd comment on this one about Sicily since I know a bit more about it..

kingzog wrote:
In Sicily, they are competing with the Mafia BTW, and it's getting bloody.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546081/Mafia-declares-WAR-migrants-Sicilian-gangster-shoots-innocent-Gambian-head-amid-soaring-levels-migration-Italy-mayor-saying-Sicily-s-capital-no-longer-European.html

But, sure, don't believe any of it, not even the photographs because it's reported by the daily mail.

Firstly, the link itself doesn't say the thing you (or they tbh) are claiming.. I mean first they say the Mafia are "desperate to maintain supremacy after African crime gangs arrived with the migrants - and they are engaged in a deadly turf war" then immediately say "An innocent Gambian man was shot through the head by an assassin".

So this guy, a Gambian student unconnected with criminal activity (as the Daily Mail article says), was shot by a gangster after an argument with some racists. So your point about not believing "even the photographs" makes no sense because the photographs have nothing to do with African gangs.

Secondly, this isn't to say there aren't African gangs in Sicily but the claim they're "competing with the Mafia" is as untrue as it is unimportant (I mean, say they were competing, would you support the Mafia? Is there a 'proletarian' choice of organised crime group?). This article talks about African gangs in Sicily but there with Mafia approval. Now it's not inconceivable that these gangs would sometimes have conflicts with other local Mafia outfits but this happens between different groups of Italian mafiosi anyway so it's hardly a new problem particular to migrants.

Spassmaschine
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Apr 26 2016 20:17
kingzog more or less wrote:
"Keep the black economy white!"
"Italian Jobs for Italian Mafiosi!"
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Apr 27 2016 14:33

Just wanted to add something real quick re:Sweden though it's mostly repetitive of what's already been said. The police/media/ideological background to 'no go areas' has already been made but just wanted to point out that two areas on the police list, Majorna in Gothenburg and Bagarmossen in Stockholm are formerly working class now middle class, lefty, hipster type neighbourhoods, you know the type I'm talking about.

And as for the rape statistics, that's also already been dealt with, so just repeating the same, but it's to do with the wider definition and the higher rate of reporting which has social, cultural, historical and political reasons behind it not least of which is the strength and size of the Swedish feminist movement. But the non reporting of sexual assault is a basic for any discussion around it. Kingzog's going off on one.

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Apr 28 2016 22:57

Leaving the polemics aside, I'm very interested in this topic, especially as it screens against the history of population movements through Europe and the periphery.

Can anybody recommend reliable, balanced sources, reporting and/or analysis, on immigration patterns and shifting demographics over the course of the last two decades? I can read German.

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Apr 29 2016 22:11

It's worth pointing out that if someone wants to raise the issue of patriarchal attitudes and practices in Middle Eastern/North African communities (which is a genuine problem), then unironically invoking the language of protecting "our women" is a sure sign for us not to take you seriously at all.

kingzog
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May 1 2016 06:08

I think it's ridiculous to deny that this isn't a n issue.

You may not like a source, but that doesn't mean they are a priori wrong. That's a total fallacy.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7557/germany-rape-migrants-crisis

Here is a fairly comprehensive list of the sexual assaults. It contains references and links to source materials. Do you think this is normal for western Europe? Rape by starngers in public? Idk. I don't think it is, even if some reports are exxagerated, it's still outside what's normal. It should be an issue at the very least and not ignored!

My point, the whole time, has been that if the left doesn't respond to this- and I have no idea what an appropriate response would be, preferably one that can simultaneously protect innocent migrants- than the right will swoop in and capitalize on it all, in which case, we're all fucked.

If the left responds, it can take the wind out of the sails of the right. Even just acknowledging it. Definitely not telling women to cover up or be modest, as the politicians in Cologne did, however, that is like a gift to the right.

kingzog
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May 1 2016 06:13

And can anyone deny, with a straight face, that North African and Mid Eastern societies are less patriarchical than western Europe? That women have the same status there? That they face no more abuse?