Migrants & sexual violence

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jef costello's picture
jef costello
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Jun 7 2016 15:45
timthelion wrote:
At one point I was walking through the town where the school for foreigners was and I saw a group of Saudis walking about 10m behind a pair of girls. The Saudis were wistling and wispering among eachother. I asked them what they were doing, and they said that they were watching the girls asses because the girls were hot and they wanted to masturbate later. That is simply not a scene that exists outside of an imigrant context. It doesn't exist in Saudi Arabia, as all women are covered, and it doesn't normally exist here either. It is a phenomenon which is specific to people who are away from their normal culture. What would you do in such a situation?

Do you really expect us to believe this actually happened?

And oh my word this totally exists in pretty much every context. I think basically every teenage boy ever has done this.

timthelion
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Sep 10 2016 13:30

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Fleur
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Jun 7 2016 16:36

Wouldn't it be nice if people stopped using sexual violence as a metaphor or as a means to advance other agendas, in this case the anti-immigration/racist asshole argument?

factvalue
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Jun 7 2016 16:41

Yes, good idea.

factvalue
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Jun 7 2016 16:42
jef costello wrote:
I think basically every teenage boy ever has done this.

I didn't.

timthelion
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Sep 10 2016 13:30

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wojtek
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Jun 7 2016 17:31

jef, if it's so unremarkable why don't you believe Saudis can act in the same manner.

Fleur
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Jun 7 2016 17:17

Timthelandlord said:

I'm not racist but....

timthelion
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Sep 10 2016 13:30

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factvalue
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Jun 7 2016 17:41
timthelion wrote:
I want these people to come to western countries and experience freedom. I want them to escape those "fucked up backwards countries"

'These people' ffs? Which people? What freedom?

timthelion
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Sep 10 2016 13:30

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Serge Forward's picture
Serge Forward
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Jun 7 2016 17:57

Tim, as we're onto anecdotes, I actually know quite a few Saudis, both male and female. While I accept they may often hold views I might personally find highly questionable or objectionable, I have never encountered that sort of behaviour from the many Saudis I've had dealings with over the last ten years or so. While some Saudi men may well have behaved in the way you describe, the same behaviour could feasibly be attributed to a certain type of man from literally any nationality or ethnic group.

timthelion
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Sep 10 2016 13:30

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timthelion
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Sep 10 2016 13:31

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timthelion
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Sep 10 2016 13:31

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jef costello's picture
jef costello
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Jun 7 2016 18:32
wojtek wrote:
jef, if it's so unremarkable why don't you believe Saudis can act in the same manner.

I don't believe that Tim went up to a group of Saudis and had a chat about the fact that they were looking at women's arses.

timthelion
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Sep 10 2016 13:31

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Fleur
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Jun 7 2016 20:34
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I had to prove to them that they were losers for walking 10 meters back, rather than going up and talking to them like normal people would.

So it would be OK if this group of men went up to these women and hassled them on the street? Is that what "normal" people do?

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Steven.
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Jun 7 2016 20:47

So this is great. Tim is an anarchist, and an immigrant. He recognises that not all immigrants have a problem with sexual harassment etc, and that some people in their own countries do also. However he wants a government program to train all migrants how to treat women.

If you thought this would be a good idea, wouldn't it be a better idea to target it at all people who have problems with sexual harassment, rather than just migrants, like yourself?

And do you think you should be sent on training to not abuse women, because you are an immigrant?

Fleur
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Jun 7 2016 20:50

Thing is, I'm not seeing any kind of evidence that Tim is an anarchist.

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Steven.
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Jun 7 2016 20:56
Fleur wrote:
Thing is, I'm not seeing any kind of evidence that Tim is an anarchist.

No I completely get that, that's kind of the point…

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Jun 8 2016 06:49

I think the recent case of Brock Allen Turner getting six months jail time after he was literally caught during the act of raping an unconscious woman is (yet another) example of how 'our' culture and institutions work to support rapists.

But no, the problem is migrants who sexually assault 'our' women because their culture makes excuses for it and their institutions don't punish it.. jesus fucking wept..

Worth reading on the topic:
The Horrible Things the Stanford Rapist's Friends and Family Said in His Defense
The Powerful Letter The Stanford Survivor Read To Her Attacker

Edit to add:
I know the response here will be 'well, that's just one guy'. I just want to point out that earlier I linked to an article that said frat house members are 3x more likely to rape than non-frat house members. Yet there is no discussion about 'banning/deporting American frat house members from Europe to protect women'. Yet there is exactly that discussion about migrants.

Spikymike
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Jun 8 2016 11:05

We are all for more integration between workers from different parts of the world and different cultural backgrounds but try to pursue that through promoting in ideas and practice independent class struggle across the divisions and barriers that capitalism and the state foster. We cannot rely on or expect the state to advance that integration other than in ways that aim to make us more pliable workers and consumers.
timthelion is not an anarchist or a communist as generally understood on this site but you don't have to be either of those separately or in combination to post on this site as far as I'm aware. timthelion expresses it seems to me quite honestly many of the confused and poorly thought out ideas that many of our fellow workers do every day but who wouldn't touch this site in a million years. They draw wrong conclusions from limited personal experiences and anecdotal evidence.The regular anarchist and communist posters on this thread have made strenuous efforts to correct timthelion's conclusions in ways that I couldn't summon the energy to match. It seems reasonable to give timethelion the time to argue their point of view out but the admins should not be censored for putting a limit on that at some point.

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Jun 8 2016 11:40

I agree with Spikymike #84.

Pretty sure we’ve all met people who identify as anarchist/communist/socialist, who know little of what the labels mean or even imply. An acquaintance told me they were very sociable. Her husband agreed, at university he’d help found a group of Scottish republican socialists, and had always voted SNP.
I think timthelion a bit more clued-up than that.

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Jun 9 2016 22:32
timthelion wrote:
as for your interpretation of my statement that some countries like Katar and Saudi Arabia are "horrible fucked up coutries", I don't mean that their people are fucked up, but I DO think that their cultures and their governments are fucked up. Neither of those countries allow their citizens to visit libcom.org.

just remembered that he said this. We get around 300 visits per month from Saudi Arabia, and about 100 per month from Qatar. So don't know where you got that from.

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Jun 10 2016 10:48
Steven. wrote:
just remembered that he said this. We get around 300 visits per month from Saudi Arabia, and about 100 per month from Qatar. So don't know where you got that from.

It's also rather racist to lump the two nations together as they're pretty different. Qatar is a lot like the UK really, it has an elected government and a constitutional monarchy and its female population does have significantly more rights and opportunities than in Saudi Arabia. It still cracks down on dissent and treats poor foreign workers abysmally and has corporal punishment on its books (though the UK still flogged people until the 1970's in its overseas territories, and France the cradle of reason and enlightenment beheaded people up to 1977)

The UAE recently updated its anti discrimination laws http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/united-arab-emirates-introduces-discriminatory-anti-discrimination-law/#gs.ATK7_gk

While I don't think any regime in the region is particularly positive, pretending they're monolithic just shows incredible ignorance.

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Jun 27 2018 12:32

FYI kingzog/Ahmet Muhtar, who got banned because of his posts in this thread, continued his slide to the far right and was recently seen participating in a public outreach action of Identity Evropa's. For people who don't know, IE is an American fascist/neo-Nazi organization started by Iraq War vet, Nathan Domingo.

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Agent of the In...
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Jun 27 2018 13:36

That same poster was pretending to be concerned about the "historical connections" between anarcho-syndicalism and fascism, and positioning himself as some true orthodox marxist in the comments section under akai's blog piece titled 'Anarchosyndicalism against fascism'.

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Steven.
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Jun 27 2018 15:33

Completely unsurprising that he is now a proud fascist. What is more surprisingly is that he didn't realise that he was a fascist piece of shit back then

no1
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Jun 27 2018 16:53

doesn't the username kingZOG suggest he was a fascist from the start?