Soapy is on hunger strike

Solidarity comrade!

good luck!

Edited to mention that I agree with the people saying not follow through on killing yourself.

Yeah sorry mate, but going on hunger strike in the US in an attempt to influence Israeli domestic policy? Next you're gonna tell me you're a stu...oh! ;)

If this is a publicity stunt aimed at raising awareness of the plight of the Palestinian hunger strikers, seems like it's being reasonably effective. If it's 'for real', I doubt one more body weighs particularly heavily on the minds of Israeli statesmen, given their track record. I assume the former, tbh.

Soapy

There are many reasons our organization decided to begin the hunger strike. First of all, solidarity hunger strikes were successful last February in securing the release of Palestinian detainee Khader Adnan. Second of all the hunger strikes raise awareness of our organization and have a deeply inspiring effect on anyone who cares to learn about what we are doing and most of all the families of the hunger strikers who have been told about our action. Furthermore, we have educated many people about the Israeli judicial system with the hunger strike, people who would never have learned about it were it not for our sacrifice.

In summary, it's a hell of a lot more effective than doing nothing.

So you accept that none of your reasons have anything to do with forcing the hand of the Israeli state? Do you honestly think that a handful of international calls to a Brigadier in the IDF will end this? I mean, is this even a coordinated action?

BTW the US has prisons with people dying in them too, y'know, probably on an order of magnitude larger than in Israel.

Soapy wrote:
Furthermore, we have educated many people about the Israeli judicial system with the hunger strike, people who would never have learned about it

But you're not in Israel...

Soapy

Caiman notice that the first point I made was that solidarity hunger strikes led to the release of Khader Adnan

Also, members of our organization are also members of the local student group Justice not Jails which focuses on mass incarceration in the US

I don't think that solidarity hunger strikes in America had anything at all to do with it. In fact I didn't even know that there had been any. I think what prompted his release was not only the fact that he was nearing the point of death (anything after 52 days is dangerous) but also demonstrations (including mass limited hunger strikes) were beginning to become a public order problem in Israel and Palestine.

I would be completely amazed if anything you do has any impact at all on Israeli military decisions as I am absolutely sure that they will assume that a bunch of kids in America are not going to starve themselves to death, which I sincerely hope you don't.

Soapy

I should add that there are two of us who have to work real jobs along with all of our schoolwork while we are not eating, this is extremely difficult and shows the maturity and steadfastness of members of our organization

Well no, you don't have to. You don't have to be on hunger strike.

Devrim

I think the deeper disagreement here is that you feel the personal responsibility to 'do something' to help Palestinian prisoners, while others don't. I don't doubt your sincerity Soapy, but I think not doing anything about Palestine is fine. I mean, Israel does some nasty shit. But I mean, 'what are you doing about the civil war in DRC?', 'what are you doing about HIV/AIDS in sub-saharan Africa?', 'what are you doing about repression in China?', 'what are you doing to stop women being stoned in Saudi?' and so on.

The world is full of really horrible shit, injustice is everywhere, and it's not my or your personal responsibility to take the burden upon ourselves to solve it all (especially stuff we have basically zero power over, like the policies of states thousands of miles away). The stuff we can change is much closer to home (for student activism, look at CLASSÉ). And paradoxically, once you have the power to change things closer to home, you're in a better position to offer meaningful international solidarity (e.g. historically, IWW dock workers in Philly who refused to ship arms to General Franco).

I realise you've obviously thought this through, and you're unlikely to change your mind because some people on the internet criticise you/call you names. But there's a political point in amongst the cheap shots at student politics.

Soapy

Isn't trying to do something better than doing nothing?

I think this is the heart of it. Only if the something is better than nothing. If the 'something' is pointless, or even counter-productive, then it's worse than nothing (in the first case, for wasting your time, in the second for making things worse). So something isn't inherently better than nothing, it depends whether the something has any likelihood of making any difference. I suspect your action doesn't. I mean, basically there's lots of bad things we don't have the power to change, so I think it's better to do nothing about them, and to focus on things we do have the power to change instead.

revol68

How are they cheap shots?

I mean I'm aware they are easy and obvious

I stand corrected, easy and obvious shots at student politics.

Soapy wrote:
In regards to student organizing, while on hunger strike I have still been playing a very active role in the organizing efforts surrounding our attempt to build a student union on campus, the two actions are in no ways mutually exclusive.

And when you've got no energy? What makes you any different from Rachel Corrie?

I feel like I should be wearing kevlar and hiding behind a concrete barrier, coming into this, I'm really not in the mood for a fight, it's been a shit week and it's only Tuesday, but how about playing nice? If anyone has an issue with Soapy & his group's motivations and the efficacy of their actions, a reasoned discourse might be more appropriate, rather than trading barbs.
I am assuming, and correct me if I am wrong, that Soapy et al are hoping to raise the profile of the Palestinian hungers strikers and issues around Palestine in general. You have to remember that in North America the pro-Irael lobby is very powerful and pervasive, much more so than in Europe. From time to time I join my friends (God, I'm pulling the some of my best friends are Palestinian argument :oops: ) standing in protest outside the Israeli Consulate. I don't think that it will do jack shit to do anything to change Israeli domestic policy and neither do they, but some times you just want stand with someone to show that what matters to them matters to you too. Joseph Kay is right when he says that the world is full of shit that you can't do anything about, but that shouldn't preclude people wanting to do something, even if that just feels like screaming into the void.
On a wider scale, some people get into politics through solidarity politics ( I'm not suggesting this is Soapy's motivations, I'm just talking generally) - once you change your mind and explore a single issue, it's not a huge leap to change your perspective on how you see the world, including that bit of it you are living in. Personally I did a lot of stuff around South African issues, back in my misspent youth, I was already fairly lefty, but it lead me to getting involved in local issues, through the people I met, stuff that was tangible and important and at the end of the day was far more effective than anti-apartheid politics. I think what I'm saying, in my usual rambling sort of way, is that if you can challenge someone's opinions on one subject, in this case Palestine, then it's not inconceivable that they might change their opinions on the bigger issues. And you know what? It really wouldn't hurt to have a few more people on our side, however they got there.
I know that all sounds a bit let's all just love each other and be nice, but sometimes I think that's not an absolutely terrible thing.
Soapy - I'm assuming that you're not actually going to starve to death, that it's a symbolic solidarity action aiming to bring the plight of Palestinian prisoners to public attention, so a bit of unsolicited advice, make sure you drink water! And we know where you are now, you've posted the video, so if you do decide to go on to the bitter end, it's not happening mate, I'm sure that some North American libcommers will turn up and take advantage of your weakened state to get some soup into you!
Take care.

revol68

But you could have done an info picket, even a symbolic protest fast?

Announcing youse are on hunger strike is crazy because a hunger strike is meant to be a last ditch thing, born of absolute desperation, it isn't just another piece of agit prop to be suggested in the student union.

Frankly I find your "hungerstrike" insulting, displaying a complete lack of understanding of it's seriousness.

Pretty much this. Completely fucking indefensible action, and seemingly ignorant of the maximal desperation which would normally precipitate a hunger strike.

I seriously doubt you'll follow this through Soapy and actually hope you don't, for your own health.

Bet down, 5 quid one week.

Remember the shop stewards who went on hunger strike outside Transport House in Belfast in protest at what their own union had done to them ?
Even that seemed a bit OTT for the situation they were facing, but at least it was done over something that had happened to them, themselves, their own struggle, not a feeling that they had to 'sacrifice' themselves for others.

i typed something here. Deleted it. Typed it again. Deleted again. I don't want to wade too far in, but i think revol has hit the nail on the head here....

I agree it doesn't seem that sensible or communist political action, but criticising it in the way revol etc. do is just as much a weird and shitty product of activism than the actual action (tho I do agree with the political criticisms of it). Most people, even if they don't agree with the motives of this protest would probably at least offer sympathy and say something like 'oh wow thats impressive, good luck to you' or something... But cos we're all too obsessed with the right politics to act more normally, we react as though soapy and co are actually doing something bad. Obviously they're not ffs!

What the fuck is wrong with libcom that this shit doesn't get fuckin pounced on.
The fact that Arbeiten felt stifled enough to delete his personal opinion speaks volumes about the culture on here.

Yeah and for every Arbeiten who was too stifled to post their personal opinion, i wonder how many felt too stifled to post at all cos of the weird culture you and revol promote here (haven't read much on libcom recently so that could be unfair, mainly basing it on this thread) - I certainly was when I read this thread yesterday and wrote a much longer post, then deleted it for good.
You say you think this stuff should be 'pounced on', are you taking the piss?! Pounced on? Even Zionists wouldn't 'pounce' on this.
Can we start treating each other like human beings not perfectly rational communists who should be pounced on for deviating from the one true path? I don't think it's healthy and maybe it's one of the reasons activists are rightly regarded as a weird bunch of irrelevant people who can't relate to the 'ordinary daily life' we so love to preach about.

It does seem a bit of a low blow to criticise someone who's doing something, but that is part of the problem. I'vebeen wondering about posting or not.
Hunger strikes pretty much rely on the shame / guilt of your opponent and at best on the compassion of your captors. As a tactic hunger strikes are desparate and destructive and come from a place where you've got little or no option, and otherwise they are just a good way to kill committed militants. A solidarity fast, which is what I hope you're doing, is a much better idea as has been mentioned above.
Also trying to guilt trip the Israeli state is one of the least effective tactics I can think of.

When someone posts 'my tummy hurts' in their first line of what is a defense if the indefensible it's actually appropriate for people to tell them to cop the fuck on.
'my tummy hurts', fuck sake

jef costello

It does seem a bit of a low blow to criticise someone who's doing something

Grow up.

The greatest problem of the last decade and a half of activistism is the idea that you can't criticise people because they are doing something, it's the politics of guilt and dictatorship of the mindless actions. Ironic that it finds its ultimate manifestation in the hunger strike.

Here we have the activist as the martyr, as ever, giving their all for their struggle. Acting on behalf of the cause, making the struggle a personal battle between them and the state.

Even the Irish republican movement had a stronger critique of the role of hunger strikes than some here - they saw it was problematic as it made the struggle individualistic and undemocratic.

Curiously, one group that did support hunger strike tactics was the WSM when Maura Harrington went on hunger strike and they picketed in support of her - in essence urging on a vulnerable, confused person to starve themselves to death.

Soap, the Israeli government doesn't care if you're alive or dead, but I do - so go eat a sandwich and quit the posturing.

As Zizek would say; Don't act, just think.

mons

Most people, even if they don't agree with the motives of this protest would probably at least offer sympathy and say something like 'oh wow thats impressive, good luck to you' or something...

Really? Good luck on dying? I'm ashamed that I was too timid to say anything when the blog post first appeared, but it immediately stuck out as problematic at best. I am glad revol et al. have spoken out. I thought I'd add this seeing as you suggested people were stifled due to the abrasive responses. For me they were a relief. The 'stifling' was more not being sure what to say to someone who's starving themselves to death.

TRIGGER WARNING:

RIP Soapy mate.

Everything Revol's been saying.

Thanks a lot Choccy, you've just ruined Big Lebowski for me now ;) even if it is one of those films that are only good when you're high.

I think that everyone is jumping the gun a bit about Soapy and friends actually starving themselves to death. THAT ISN'T WHAT YOU ARE PLANNING ON DOING, IS IT? I'm assuming it's a solidarity fast and you are calling it a hunger strike for maximum impact.
It must be about 6 or 7 days now, in which case you are doing damage to your bodies, reversible at this point, but you're respiring ketones and putting massive pressure on your liver. Depending on how well you body can cope with getting rid of the ketones, you're you're at risk of developing ketoacidosis, which I've seen someone close to me go through and it's really nasty and can happen quite quickly. I know that this is an obvious thing to say, but you'll be feeling like shit because your body is having a tough time dealing with it. If you haven't had a medical check-up before starting, then you can't be sure how your body is going to cope. You're also not thinking straight because your brain's not getting the glucose it needs. So I hope you have already put a time limit on this because your capacity for rational thought is going to diminish.
I want to be supportive to you personally, although I really don't think that what you are doing is going to have any effect on the actions of Israel, but I'm really more concerned with what you are doing to your health than any political argument at this point. Martyrdom is a really overrated concept.
You probably haven't checked in because it's pretty hostile here, but I for one would really like to know if you are OK, although if you carry on you won't be.

For the record Soapy, I do empathise with your impulse to just do something, fuck knows I don't do anything much other than mouth off, but a prolonged hunger strike is damaging to your health which is of no benefit to anyone.

Why stop at a hunger strike? Anyone up for a solidarity dirty protest? Smearing shit on walls to to change the world one injustice at a time, after all Its better than not doing anything. And as a serial lurker, there's nothing that encourages me to post more than someone being rightfully called out on shit politics, it should be done more often.

A dirty protest would be a precursor to a hunger strike.
These idiots have gone straight to the furthest extreme, but obviously with no intention of following it through, and even if they had, someone would stop them, I hope.

I have no doubt whatsoever that someone would step in, or the strikers would come to their senses before any lasting injury could occur. Only the most impossibly earnest moron would damage themselves over such a farce.
I don't care if Soapy's intentions are good, s/he's clearly adult enough to think things through and I can't see how any sane grown-up could understand this publicity stunt to be anything other than what it is, a (no doubt well intentioned) stunt. It's not organising and it's stretching the definition of solidarity pretty damned far given the fact that its got no chance of impacting anything. Additionally I don't buy this 'at least it raises awareness' stuff for a second, raising awareness counts for fuck all. It's not organising and it won't change anything, we've been through that with the kony debacle, putting your body at risk to raise awareness is jaw-droppingly silly. Stop it.
To come to an anarchist communist site with this kind of stuff is also fairly silly, and rightfully s/he's been called out for blatant crap-spouting.

Soapy, I have every confidence that you're well meaning. however I'd urge you to stop the strike and address issues you have a real ability to change in your locality, if you put half the effort into that as you are into the hunger strike you can actually really help people, instead of damaging your body for no reason.

thegunshow

As Zizek would say; Don't act, just think.

I'd rather hunger strike myself to death than be a Zizek fan. Theory comes from action, not vice versa, idealists. At least Soapy is more likely to do something useful by pure random chance or learn what kind of action is useful through experiment than wankers who have wasted their lives reading pointless philosophy books.

revol68

I love how this place has went full circle to indulging shitty activist and student politics, it's now filled with muppets who seem to think their little bubbles are relevant to life as the vast majority of working people experience it. Even worse it's also admined by people who know it's a pile of shite but under the auspices of their PR drive for the new improved diet Libcom (now 95% vitriol free) bite their tongues over shit like this hunger strike. In keeping with the activist bubble they imagine the issues of politico culture being unrepresentative of the wider class are simply matters of individual behaviour and being more welcoming ie less critical of stupidity, less swearing or scathing.

critics are of no value. go and join the dupont brothers

O.K. I don't want to be a pawn in any bigger argument about libcom culture lol. I just don't want to ick a brother while he is down (even if I don't agree with the reasoning for self inflicted down-ness). I hope we can be frank without being too rude, offensive or whatever.

While I agree with your try things out see if they work approach 888 (and indeed try do so myself*), a hunger strike in the name of people on the other side of the globe is really heavy stuff. For all the reasons already pointed out. The history of 'solidarity' hunger strikes is pretty thin, while white people dying in palestine hasn't proven to be that effective a propaganda tool either. No matter how I try and think about this, I keep coming back to the problem of self-rightiousness and substitutionalism (I don't really want to get into stereotypes about so called 'liberals' or students or activists or whatever). Yes it is insane that these people are on hunger strike (a profoundly different existential choice given the ramifications of their choice and their situation), yes, the israeli state basically uses 'humanitarian' rations (food, water, electricity, movement etc, etc,) as a valve tightened and loosened according to the will of the military. I'm not sure. I can't quite articulate** it, but it just doesn't sit right.

* Indeed wasn't it touched upon earlier today that taking on big targets like the IMF, WTO (lets add the Israeli state [and by proxy the U.S, E.U. and NATO to boot) is a practical impossibility. This is why I find this so difficult to say because, reasonably, someone might retort 'well what the fuck are you doing'. Nothing of course. I know the atrocities that go on in Israel/palestine, in Tibet, in a plethora of other places. But what can I do? I'm not sure this is it.

** mostly this is the reason I deleted my post originally by the way.
n.b. Read theory by all means, but fuck Zizek. Pain in the arse. I prefer a dialectical [sic] approach to theory and action :mrt: .

I can't be arsed to read the whole thread through again but i'm pretty sure everyone is agreed that it's not a sensible thing to do, isn't communist, won't achieve anything other than making soapy and co worse off. Also i don't think anyone has said that it shouldn't be criticised. A lot of people are arguing against a massive strawman, e.g. when arguing against guilt politics and activism. And no revol I doubt I'm "institutionalised within the mindless milieu of muppets who think solidarity and progressive politics revolve around "good intentions" and a false unity that acts to stifle proper criticism by appeals for respect/ comradely behaviour." given I have never been in the activist milieu and my friends are not political let alone activists, and I think there should be criticism of it, because it doesn't amount to proper solidarity or communist politics.

Maybe I came down to strongly on the other side in my last comments actually, I imagine I could just have easily have reacted differently initially. I was writing a thing about activists and activist culture and how it shoots itself in the foot when I posted, and so it's easy to interpret everything as weird activist behaviour. I'm not sure anymore.

I think saying it is 'insulting' is basically ultra-left in a bad way/politically correct/whatever tho, but i accept i might be wrong about that if some people are actually insulted which i find hard to believe. I still think it is weird to slam people, hurting noone other than themselves, at a personal level for this, and to slam those who offer nice sentiments (while still criticising the politics of the action) to the people doing it.

888

Theory comes from action, not vice versa, idealists.

Here is the philosophical roots of Soapy's mistake.

On the contrary, theory comes from the human mind, sometimes as the result of experience, but just as often from guessing, chance, brilliance, luck, discussion, intuition, etc.

For Communists, action must follow theory. This is not idealism, as 888 alleges.

To argue that 'theory comes from action' is to take a conservative philosophical starting point.

Think about the shite taught on PGCEs about 'reflective practice'.

There's probably a third option revol albeit one you're obviously not familiar with. It's called having a bit of tact, even if the hunger strike is a terrible idea. I know, that's not as HILARIOUS as being obnoxious over the internet and Zizek doesn't bother with it neither but don't you get bored always acting like a dickhead?

LBird

888

Theory comes from action, not vice versa, idealists.

Here is the philosophical roots of Soapy's mistake.

On the contrary, theory comes from the human mind, sometimes as the result of experience, but just as often from guessing, chance, brilliance, luck, discussion, intuition, etc.

For Communists, action must follow theory. This is not idealism, as 888 alleges.

To argue that 'theory comes from action' is to take a conservative philosophical starting point.

Think about the shite taught on PGCEs about 'reflective practice'.

I'm not familiar with PGCEs but how can anyone say 'reflective practice' is not a good idea? Maybe not the way they put it, but in general it's obviously sensible.

Have fun building your Descartian inverted pyramid of theory untainted by reality or experimental evidence. Useful theory might come via the means of guessing and chance, but it has to be confirmed as useful, has to actually have practical implications, otherwise all it is is nice sounding poetry. Theory (of any use) comes into being as the expression of class struggle, not vice versa, and it is the very definition of idealism to argue otherwise.

888

Have fun building your Descartian inverted pyramid of theory untainted by reality or experimental evidence.

Who advocates this?

888

Useful theory might come via the means of guessing and chance, but it has to be confirmed as useful, has to actually have practical implications, otherwise all it is is nice sounding poetry.

Yes, theory (coming first) has to be tested in practice (coming second).

888

I'm not familiar with PGCEs but how can anyone say 'reflective practice' is not a good idea? Maybe not the way they put it, but in general it's obviously sensible.

No, 'reflective practice' is the conservative ideological conditioning that all trainee teachers in the UK are subjected to. And it's neither 'obvious' nor 'sensible'.

It's not obvious to those conditioned by it, and it's not sensible for Communists to advocate it as a method.

Starting from 'practice' means starting from a given way of teaching (the present bourgeois method) and trying to improve it.

On the contrary, we have to criticise what exists (by theoretical discussion) and then implement revolutionary new ways of teaching.

Teachers' 'reflection' is individual and passive; we require 'criticism' and a new practice which flows from theoretical axioms, and is amended by collective considerations of our new practice.

Any updates from Soapy?

888

thegunshow

As Zizek would say; Don't act, just think.

At least Soapy is more likely to do something useful by pure random chance

If the last decade and a half has though us anything it's that a million monkeys with a million placards can not create a revolution by going through all the permutations.

If anything, Soapy is more likely to do something counter-productive, through mindlessness than something useful by accident.

So, you look any good in a bikini?

According to their college paper they've scheduled the end of the hunger strike for today at 5pm (about 5 hours time.) So that's one concern out of the way, no-one's planning on doing themselves any lasting damage. I'm not posting it up because someone's bound to cut and paste for piss taking purposes and I'm not enabling that. Go find it yourself.
I think it's fair to say that most people disagree with Soapy's group's tactics, what I don't think is fair is to express that in the form of personal abuse, as Arbeiten said, to kick a brother when he's down. Soapy's been posting on Libcom longer than me and I hope they comes back. As I said before, solidarity politics is one route to getting to thinking politically, these days I don't think they're very effective, I think that working on things locally is more so, but also like I said before, I'm not really putting my money where my mouth is on that score either, so I'm not going pull any I'm a better commie than you argument here. Call it what you will, not wishing to indulge in uncomradely behaviour, call me a wishy-washy old softy for not wanting to hurt someone's feelings. Call someone out on something you disagree on, by all means, but don't reduce it to a level of nastiness.
Palestinians have been fucked over since long before I was born and there's no sign of that changing and I wouldn't criticise anyone for feeling empathy for their situation.
The bottom line though is that if I were to throw out a question to libcommers, to anyone, asking if they had never done anything which turned out to be not the right course of action, politically ineffective, self-harming on any level or just plain daft and if anyone put their hands up to say that they hadn't I'd tell them to get the fuck out of it. None of us are right all of the time, I know I'm not.

LBird

a new practice which flows from theoretical axioms, and is amended by collective considerations of our new practice.

How platonic... That's not how it works though, you can only form axioms after you've already worked out how a system works to a large extent, and for a theory of social struggle that would be done by... social struggle.

Axioms in geometry were only clarified a long time after the rules of geometry were known. But even then mathematics is a rare case, since it's purely theoretical. There aren't any axioms in chemistry, or if someone came up with some, they are never taught or of any use. And the more complex the system you're looking at is, the muddier things become, the less useful deriving things starting from some fundamental principles becomes (which was only ever done after the fact anyway)

888

...you can only form axioms after you've already worked out how a system works...

But if we wish to replace an existing system, how can we form axioms based upon the workings of that system?

No, we form our Communist axioms and build an entirely new system based upon our needs and wants.

You've got things the wrong way around, mate.

888

...There aren't any axioms in chemistry, or if someone came up with some, they are never taught or of any use...

Periodic table?

flaneur

There's probably a third option revol albeit one you're obviously not familiar with. It's called having a bit of tact, even if the hunger strike is a terrible idea. I know, that's not as HILARIOUS as being obnoxious over the internet and Zizek doesn't bother with it neither but don't you get bored always acting like a dickhead?

Bang on, flaneur!

Revol, you speak much truth but you really could do with enrolling at your nearest anarcho-charm school. Try and be a bit nice for once.

Soapy, you sound like a reet nice fella, but seriously, do yourself a big big favour and get summat down yer before you do some permanent damage to yerself. Revolutionaries need to be well, not make themselves ill.

As for the discussion between LBird and 888, please put down the crack pipe and listen to yourselves.

revol, you're a cunt.

I think it is just you revol ( :eek: ). Unless I am being a proper cunt (which usually entails a lot of booze) I would expect someone to reasonably explain to me what I am doing wrong and why. You can't fight alienation with alienated means blah, blah, blah. But yeah. I'm sure we can revive the forum cultures war in the proper thread. :D

Yeh be nice, we're trying to cynically recruit these people Revol!

As much as I agree that Soapy's actions needed to be criticised, I'm not convinced that criticism is necessarily comprised by a more tactful delivery. I'm still grateful that revol spoke out though. What I'm worried about is that this tough love hasn't had the intended effect of slapping him or her back to reality. I mean, Soapy has replied in a while. Soapy?

revol68

This whole oh say it nicer thing is such superficial shite, not to mention patronising, maybe its just me but id rather someone called me a cunt and treated me like im responsible for my stupidity thab give a patronising lecture on how they respect my intentions but maybe... etc

No, it's neither superficial shite nor patronising, it's about being serious rather than being, as you put it, a cunt. What Soapy is doing is worth criticisng properly and you don't do that by starting with insults and, some point down the line, slotting in criticisms almost as an afterthought. In fact, leaving out the insults completely and keeping it only to the criticism must surely be a better way of doing things than slagging off someone, doncha think? Unless it's more to do with the big I am and making those you disagree with feel small.

I see you've gone for the big I am option, revol. And frankly, if you think casual racism, sexism, homophobia is preferable to someone at least having some social and political awareness and trying to act upon it positively, even though their actions may be misguided, then you need to unwedge your head from out yer arse.

I hope you're nicer to people in real life than on t'internet, laddie. Just try and imagine that our Soapy is in the same room as you. See, I like a lot of your ideas and you say many things I agree loads with, but the way you fucking say it all devalues so much of it because you simply come across as a petulant tit.

Revol is obviously right. He has not been very polite about it, but, to be honest, he isn't. However, it is better that somebody actually said it clearly rather than the first two comments on the thread that said "Solidarity comrade", and "Good luck". Revol's rudeness might have been more worrying if anybody had thought that these people were serious about what they were doing and might have done themselves some permanent physical harm, in which case it would have been much better to try to talk them out of it. I think that it was clear from the off though that this was little more than student political posing, and that there was no chance in hell of these people taking it to the point where they did themselves some serious personal harm.

Just as an aside, the leaflet says that the guy is on the 106 day of his hunger strike, which is obviously untrue. If he had been, he would be very, very dead. He may have been on hunger strike for 106 days in total, but certainly not 106 days consecutively. The word 'whereas' is used in a very strange way too.

Devrim

Yeah, as usual revol has made some good points but in a way which makes many people focus on how he communicates rather than what he's actually saying.

But some other people here have made great points, like Joseph Kay and Indigo. Essentially, the key thing is that "awareness raising" is pointless. Public opinion counts for nothing unless it is backed up by the possibility of meaningful action. And meaningful action is only possible if we are organised. So organising is the key, and doing something which takes up lots of time and is harmful to your health negatively impacts your ability to organise. So while soapy's intentions are good unfortunately it is a flawed strategy.

Anyway, it's good that it has been called off early enough that no one will suffer any permanent damage. But I mean that does kind of make a mockery of the "hunger strike" in the first place as well, which is problematic, and I can understand why people would take issue with this

What the fuck is this 'good intentions' shit? Every single political current and belief system is motivated by 'good intentions'. Even the biggest cunts with the shittest politics genuinely think they're doing the 'right' thing. 'Good intentions' don't come into it, it was a pile of shite from the start, for all the reasons outlined by, as Revol pointed out coincidentally mostly irish posters. My tummy hurts.

Choccy

What the fuck is this 'good intentions' shit? Every single political current and belief system is motivated by 'good intentions'. Even the biggest cunts with the shittest politics genuinely think they're doing the 'right' thing. 'Good intentions' don't come into it, it was a pile of shite from the start, for all the reasons outlined by, as Revol pointed out coincidentally mostly irish posters. My tummy hurts.

Don't you think we can expand beyond your reduction, as in the real world, and say that intentions can be detailed and judged by others? Soapy's intention was to bring "justice for the hunger striking detainees." Can't that be judged against some of the intentions of the "biggest cunts"?

I agree with Joseph Kay and revol. For an actual recent example of solidarity in Washington D.C (where American University is located), see the solidarity by D.C. union teachers for the Chicago Teachers Union strike, on which there is an excellent write-up here.

Edit: Incidentally, the D.C. teachers are not on strike -- at least not yet (if they did, it would apparently be the first time in about 30 years). They have been contributing to the solidarity fund, providing picket line refreshments, and sending letters and photos of support.

thegunshow

Yeh be nice, we're trying to cynically recruit these people Revol!

I find the line of logic implied by the weighty sarcasm within this statement troubling, ie that we shouldn't try to 'recruit' (that is, win over to our ideas via debate) people who are engaged in moribund, worthless, potentially counter-productive 'activism'. Oddly enough, people - yes, EVEN 'activists' - do odd/abnormal/seemingly pointless things in the public sphere. People camp outside computer game shops/bookshops/theatres awaiting the latest Harry Potter/Twilight/shoot 'em up. People dress up as Klingons for Star Trek conventions. People 'like' things on Facebook. People sign petitions. Do we disregard everyone or what?

I mean yeah, I made a couple of quips at the beginning of the thread about the lack of perspective of the OP & the hunger strike, but i certainly wouldn't go to such lengths to retrospectively 'justify' my flippancy. What's the point? Isn't this more about Revol's pride now anyway? And for all his bellyaching about useful/meaningly activity (the implied - not explicitly stated in this thread - flipside to the worthless action of a hunger strike over Palestine), we all know he's a lazy, boring, useless cunt who clearly feels more comfortable trolling activists than anything else.

Essentially, the key thing is that "awareness raising" is pointless. Public opinion counts for nothing unless it is backed up by the possibility of meaningful action.

Well put Steven. This is the crux of the matter for activist politics, no doubt.

revol68

And for your information I do stuff where it is relevant to my life, I went on strike for N30, argued with other colleagues as to why they should too. Sure it was ineffective as I was a temp and I was surrounded by scab bastards in HR and payroll but that's reality and I feel no need to dress it up with stupid spectacle or justify myself as an "activist" to some middle class brat slumming it.

There's a difference between being in an anarcho syndicalist group and actually doing workplace organising, so get off your high horse.

I've never shied from calling you a lazy bastard, and you are ;)
But I do think there's a substance here to what you're saying

I've noticed a tendency for people to lapse back into a political/activist comfort zone long it was being torn apart on here in 2004/5 when this place was still Enrager.

It turns out that all that stuff about workplace organising being what we should be doing but is really fucking hard, especially with work so increasingly casualised/precarious, or simply non-existent.
Whereas pointless activism and running about Oxford Street masked up while being self indulgent largely pointless shite, is a lot easier to do, practically, than even the minutest of workplace organising.

As you've said before, it's hard to workplace organise when you're unemployed ;)

I remember years ago, 2005, a thread on here about whether it's sometimes better to 'do nothing' than to do really pointless shit. The overwhelming consensus was that it's sometimes better to do nothing instead of time-sapping shit that results in burnout or may even be a step back, which something like dickhead student 'solidarity' hunger strikes, sorry calorie restrictions, most certainly are.

Choccy

I remember years ago, 2005, a thread on here about whether it's sometimes better to 'do nothing' than to do really pointless shit. The overwhelming consensus was that it's sometimes better to do nothing instead of time-sapping shit that results in burnout or may even be a step back, which something like dickhead student 'solidarity' hunger strikes, sorry calorie restrictions, most certainly are.

Joseph Kay made exactly this point on page 2. Many people have praised his take on the matter. Maybe things aren't as different as your nostalgia has led you to believe? Interesting if you think there is a lapse though.

Of course Caiman del Barrio took part in a similar university action in the UK also for Palestinians.

1. Soapy, a young and enthusiastic poster, announces a well-meaning but fundamentally misguided action.
2. Soapy gets told he's a joke, retarded, childish, insulting to real hunger strikers, etc etc.
3. Soapy gets upset, reiterates that he's thought it through and leaves the site after one page (did you guys even notice?)
4. Any ability to influence him to stop or think differently is immediately lost, as he's stopped reading. Thus making the following three pages pretty much redundant.

In a nutshell, this is why aggressive attacks are a bit pointless unless you are actively trying to get someone to leave the site - which given Soapy is guilty of nothing more than being a student with some mixed up politics in alongside some pretty reasonable ideas, I hope wasn't the intention.

Problem is you can't slag someone into stopping a bad action if all they need to do so they never have to hear from you again is log out.

So I thought I might as well wade in here, as well, I feel strangely compelled to and I can't really explain why.. maybe its coz I feel Caiman is actually being unfairly criticised, but I don't think so coz Caiman often pisses me off as well.. :)

The general points being made by Choccy and revol are basically right, what they describe as meaningful action and the related difficulties is basically spot-on. That said, there's a lot of broad-brush criticisms here that actually don't apply (or if they do apply, probably apply more to revol than to Caiman)..

revol68

There's a difference between being in an anarcho syndicalist group and actually doing workplace organising, so get off your high horse.

Choccy

It turns out that all that stuff about workplace organising being what we should be doing but is really fucking hard, especially with work so increasingly casualised/precarious, or simply non-existent.
Whereas pointless activism and running about Oxford Street masked up while being self indulgent largely pointless shite, is a lot easier to do, practically, than even the minutest of workplace organising.

Now, both these statements are entirely true but at the same time not applicable to this situation as CdB is actually organising at work. Revol can't know this as all the info is currently internal to SF, Choccy should know as he has access to it on the SF internal forums. But basically Caiman can actually stay on his high-horse for now..

Equally, organising in your own workplace is not the only organising you can do. There's SolNet type stuff, there's helping others organise their workplaces.. again, stuff that Caiman has done. And that revol hasn't, because he's a fucking lazy bastard (something which we all agree on ;) ).. now as much as its easy to run around Oxford Street masked up, its also easy to sit on your arse calling people middle-class brats, feeling satisfied in the knowledge of your own (in fairness, genuinely proletarian) background.. but honestly, who gives a fuck about that kind of Openly Classist shit? Oh yeah, your Dad was a fucking illegal immigrant miner from Tottenham and your mum was Lucy Parsons.. but in the words of Janet Jackson, 'what have you done for me lately?'..

revol68

And for your information I do stuff where it is relevant to my life, I went on strike for N30, argued with other colleagues as to why they should too.

This part as well raised an eyebrow for me and perhaps we need another thread entitled 'revol's activity' but for now I'll continue here..

Two things really: first, what 'stuff' did you actually 'do' for this thing that was 'relevant to your life'? Maybe I'm wrong and you did loads of shit, but to me it seems that while you were temping in the public sector, there was a national strike and you honoured the picket line.. great like.. but its not like when this thing came around that was relevant to your life that you all of a sudden jumped up off your beanbag chair, put down Call of Duty and started building for the strike, did you? Or did you? What the fuck do I know? But I'm skeptical..

Secondly, look at your sentence again. I don't doubt for a second that you "argued" with your workmates, coz you're a contrary bastard who loves a row.. but this isn't workplace organising. At least, its not good organising. Its just having a political row with your workmates, a bit like a row on libcom but with people who have probably never been vegetarian or heard of Esperanto. And that is just as safe as running around Oxford St or calling people middle-class brats. Its your comfort zone coz you know you can hold your own in a political argument and you can even 'win' them against your 'opponents'.. except they're not your opponents, they're your workmates and you're not trying to win, you're trying to get them to believe in their own collective power.

Seriously, someone mentioned the Duponts earlier and I almost had a heart-attack, imagining revol as a bitter old communist, writing obscure shit that no one will ever read or care about, eternally satisfied with being 'right' and reliving past glories.. except there are no past glories, coz he's a lazy bastard.. so he just makes strongly worded - if often astute - criticisms of those he thinks have activist messiah complexes which they act out through their pointless activism.. really they should listen to him.. and maybe some people will, a chosen people, but probably only after he's dead.. ;)

Hold up your activism revol, so you may be judged. Fucking cultists...

Hey I ain't judging his activism, just some of his motivation techniques. Fwiw I do agree that it's a bit off to have a go at him for not being active, ball not man etc (though perhaps a lesson to take is that this criticism does go both ways - he's just spent this entire thread judging other people's activism).

Secondly, look at your sentence again. I don't doubt for a second that you "argued" with your workmates, coz you're a contrary bastard who loves a row.. but this isn't workplace organising. At least, its not good organising. Its just having a political row with your workmates, a bit like a row on libcom but with people who have probably never been vegetarian or heard of Esperanto. And that is just as safe as running around Oxford St or calling people middle-class brats. Its your comfort zone coz you know you can hold your own in a political argument and you can even 'win' them against your 'opponents'.. except they're not your opponents, they're your workmates and you're not trying to win, you're trying to get them to believe in their own collective power.

That is a fucking beautiful paragraph.

As usual Revol, you're making so very salient points but doing like a dick. I was thinking about that 'trying to recruit' comment. Now, I don't know your political past, but I do know that no one is born a communist (and I say that as someone whose partner has Communist parents). Personally, I did some pretty cringy shit when I first came into politics. I also know that some of the libcom admins had their activisty days as well. Soapy is obviously still working out his politics--why else would he both have a blog on libcom and be participating in a symbolic fast?--and although he's a student and may or may not be "middle class", one day he'll have to get a job. I don't think alienating him so aggressively from a site where many of us are so concerned with effective workplace organising is an especially intelligent thing to do.

Mate, there's no argument in your post. It's just a ramble through ideas we've all already had about five years ago (you even used the word 'sublimate', which I have literally only ever heard during those arguments, its like an injured sports star watching old videos of himself in his prime), not actually relevant to any of the people you're currently talking to (the only person it would have been relevant to, Soapy, has since left this thread because you acted like a nob).

Who here likes sitting in meetings? Who here wants to 'do something' just for the sake of doing it? Is everything that isn't workplace organising substitutionism? You conflate 'organisers' and 'evangelists' like that's the model supported by the people you're talking to (when actually its more relevant to the people you were talking to five years ago).. so well done, you're right.. like everyone else you're talking to..

And just for the record, I didn't wade in here to wave my 'organiser' phallus in your face.. if anything, it was to wave Caiman's phallus in your face (which is a weird image) and to point out that everything that you have said about others - specifically the messiah complex and the retreat from meaningful activity into more comfortable activity - is just as true about you as it is of the people you're aiming it at.. tbh, it's probably even more true for you..

revol68

the problem is that such are the balances of class struggle that these opportunities are few and far between and that I'm not the type of person who see's it as their job to organise other people nor would I have an aptitude for it if I did.

Yeah, fair enough, and while I'm at it I don't think you're a 'bad activist' or whatever (as your cheerleader would like to make out).. but I do think your principle of 'rudeness as a weapon in the hands of the working class' is bollocks. Because at the end of the day, its just bizarre to me that you would piss away your one very strong political aptitude - making sensible and well-thought arguments - on behaving like a cunt for the benefit of making thegunshow lol..

To be honest, on this point, Rob Ray makes the point better and more succinctly than me.. just reply to that, it would probably lead to a more substantive discussion..

Why is it cultish to want someone to not do the thing that you think is political ineffectual and physically harmful?

Maybe that disparity comes from the fact this is a public thing, not a private conversation?

This though is so fucking true, and any active member of SolFed, AF or whatever has to admit that they aren't just a worker fighting to improve their lives:

This actually gets to another issue I've been thinking about lately, the idea of communists as de facto organisers, as evangelists, I think it's massively problematic not simply on the wider political scale and the implications it has for understanding how class struggle happens and the role of the working class and "revolutionaries" but on the level of the individual. There seems to be the idea that every communist is an organiser, and I think that is just mental, some people aren't suited to such roles, some of us can barely organise our own lives. There is a fetishism of organising within much of the left, meeting called for this, meetings about meetings etc This to me is an outcome of lack of genuine class struggle in peoples day to day lives. The outcome of this is that many people pass through left politics and circles, they burn out, get depressed or feel guilty about their inability to produce meaningful change. The flipside of this is a culture of "doing something" one upmanship, people waving around their organising and activity as some sort of phallus, see Ed's post (though I don't see him mentioning his own activity there) or to get back to the original post, some muppets going on hunger strike.

Sorry but I don't really think that para's true. I mean, yeah, there are points to be made against the whole ORGANISE THE WORLD thing (it should be broadened, less prescriptive, more naturalistic, etc, etc) but Revol's argument is - as folks have said - essentially a nihilist one.

When I say he's a lazy cunt, it's not cos i argue for action for its own sake (& his attempts at ad homs towards me are so wide of the mark, it's comical, I mean, where does he get this stuff?) but rather cos, as Ed says, his actions in trolling anarkiez online are as much a reproduction of personal ambitions, attention-seeking & pride as a hunger strike over Palestine in a university quad. In fact, possibly more so, cos at least there's an iota of genuinity behind Soapy's tragicomically misguided actions, as opposed to a smug, sneering cuntishness.

I mean, the fact that he has to resort back to some pathetic story about N30 demonstrates how much he's backpedalling here. If he were less of a self-promoting cunt bathed in macho pride, he'd've backed off by now. Cunt. ;)

revol68

I think Ed has completely missed my point.... snip... not feeling the need to engage in a substitutionism or spectacle as a means of sublimating the powerlessness of our situation.

This actually gets to another issue I've been thinking about lately, the idea of communists as de facto organisers, as evangelists... snip...

The other thing I take issue with is the definition of lazy... snip...

Also the waving around of activism and berating people for not doing more implicitly raises the problem of relating to the wider class... snip...

Anyway...snip...

Nailed it. Best argument for justifying being a lazy cunt. Ever.

My position is not so different from your own, Revol. I am every bit as critical of Soapy's 'hunger strike' as you are. However, your treating him like a twat has achieved what exactly? Fair enough, he seems to have left Libcom, so that fuckin learnt him, didn't it. But apart from showing everyone you're both right and a cunt, what good is your billy big bollocks nonsense?

Fun fact, libcom.org actually stands for Livid Individual Being Completely OTT Machine ;).

But seriously, this is a political website. It's gonna have bad politics on it occasionally, and its main remit is to improve those politics. So yes, if you as a relatively politically savvy individual are driving less savvy people off the site, that is a problem. Which is slightly different than when you (and indeed I) have gone after old politicos in the past who have been pushing bad ideas for a long time when they should have learned by now and are actively getting in the way of promoting decent politics.

Kicking the primmos and paedos around is a regrettable* necessity, going after a student who's trying to show solidarity to people who are being treated badly, albeit in a rather naive way, as though they're being stupid and insulting and in need of a smackdown is not. There needs to be some horses for courses here.

*Oh all right, not that regrettable, rather fun actually

thegunshow

jef costello

It does seem a bit of a low blow to criticise someone who's doing something

Grow up.

You could have at least finished reading the sentence that you quoted :)

I don't think that's true. If this 'proto-typical worker' came onto libcom--which would presumably imply they found the site through a thread or article on a topic which has some interest to them--and spouted casual (i.e. not ideological) racism, I do think folks would calmly engage them on it. Call them out, no doubt, but tearing strips, no I don't think so.

In fact, when new folks have ventured on to the website recently--folks who are clearly young and new to politics--I think most of the regular posters have been pretty good about gently critiquing their activisty ideas (this most often include that "DO SOMETHING!!!" activism, might I add). I'd like to think that if someone came on libcom who wanted to engage in a discuss of labor activism but thought Poles were taking our jobs or whatever, we'd deal with it in a similar way.

So, would this be an example of "macho posting on libcom" that I've heard so much about? ;)

Can I just point out that the hunger strike is over, that it wasn't actually a hungerstrike, a solidarity fast, no-one is dying. A really, really poor choice of vocabulary. It is over, done and opinions have been well and truly expressed on the subject. They're probably all tucking into a nice piece of cake right now.
Can I also do a bit of a straw poll, asking anyone think that Soapy's group's action was fairly futile, not really a good way to go? My hand's up, probably most of yours too. Also, just asking, but who thinks that Revol made some very good points, but it's probably just as well that there's no anarchist version of the diplomatic corp, because tact and diplomacy is not a strength? Anybody here sprung forth from the womb with perfectly consolidated politics, as opposed to working it out as you go along? Anybody think that throwing about I'm a better commie than you because I do x,y, and z is a bit pointless because we are all in different situations, and have different capabilities and opportunities?
I was just wondering about these things because the person whose actions are being criticised has chosen not to come back into the argument. So, am I getting this right, that everyone is pretty much in agreement with each other on the not eating for a cause tactic and activist behaviour in general. I just wondered because somehow the absolute vitriol being thrown around at each other, between people who are pretty much in agreement, well that actually seems really fucking familiar. Another question, I wonder who's ever seen that happen before?
On the other hand, the NHL is in lock-out and I won't be seeing a bunch of blokes batter the shit out of each other on the ice any time soon. Next best thing I suppose.

Jesus, that's what you took away from that? That's an impressive level of conjecture, strawmanning, and ad hominen.

Wouldn't be the first time.

I can't be assed to write a longer post because this is going round in circles (with the added extra of older libcom posters holding on to there 5 year grudges that only about 15 people in the world know about). But the claims to 'cultism' are fucking bullshit low blow clasping-at-straw criticism. I hear jacques cammatte is in this season anyhow....

revol68

Chilli Sauce

Jesus, that's what you took away from that? That's an impressive level of conjecture, strawmanning, and ad hominen.

Or a drawing out of the subtext to most of your post.

Anyway i asked you a straight forward question about your choice to ignore how Soapy explained and described the action in favour of projecting your preferred notion on to it. Soapy described it as a hunger strike and repeatedly expressed the fact it was serious, he never once labelled it a symbolic fast and yet this is what you decided to take from it. Is actively ignoring what people say in favour of putting your own spin on it for political reasons grand because it helps take the edge of political disagreement, is this how you see an inclusive culture coming about?

Subtext, conjecture, same thing, right?

Although it's true that Soapy described it as a hunger strike, it was evident pages ago ago that it was, in fact, a symbolic fast. I think that'd be pretty obvious given that they were apparently eating so many calories and that they've stopped with the whole business now altogether. I'm mean, if you want to give Soapy a deserved critique for what he's labeled this action, fine. However, at this point you're not doing much more than grasping at semantics to justify your continuing antagonism.

As to your other shit, I'm not gonna take the bait. You're basically a little child playing to a peanut gallery who loves to see you berate and condescend to others with your right-on politics. That's not my style of debate. Nor do I intend to create some sort of tough-talking, macho online persona to compete with you.

Soapy's action was misguided, naive, and in need of a critiquing. You're unnecessarily aggressive and rude. And that pretty much sums it up.

From reading some of the comments on here, you would think that some poor political innocent had come on, and Revol had just started throwing abuse at him. The fact is thought that he had been posting here for over two years, described himself as an anarcho-syndicalist, and even had his own blog here.

If it is wrong for people to throw abuse at others on here, it is equally bad for somebody to call Revol "a lazy, boring, useless cunt" as it is for him to show his anger at the ridiculous student politics that were on display here, but that seems to be considered to be OK.

How many more years should Revol have waited before telling him what he thought. Obviously, two years isn't enough. Maybe he could have waited until he had been a member for over eight years, as Revol has, before he said something because it seems to be perfectly OK to throw abuse at people who have been on here for that long.

I also agree completely with Revol's comments about volunterism and the way people on here talk about organising workplaces nowadays.

Devrim

Thread locked: way off-topic. Please start new threads to discuss the tangents if you wish. Warning to revol68 for repeated flaming/personal attacks and posting potentially incriminating information on another poster (now unpublished). General warning for everyone else who joined in flaming. Posting guidelines are here.