Lenin the liberal? A reply to Chris Cutrone

Lenin in disguise
Lenin in disguise

David Adam replies to an article by Chris Cutrone of the Platypus Affiliated Society (http://platypus1917.org/2011/09/26/lenin-the-liberal/). This reply questions Cutrone's characterization of Lenin's liberalism, focusing on the themes of socialist transition and single-party rule. The Platypus Review published this article, along with a response from Chris Cutrone, in their October 2011 issue: http://platypus1917.org/category/pr/issue-40.

Submitted by dave c on October 8, 2011

Chris Cutrone’s recent article “Lenin’s Liberalism” (Platypus Review #36) claims that Lenin’s politics are distorted when characterized as a pure opposition to bourgeois conditions. In fact, he suggests that Lenin insisted on “the mediation of politics in society” even after the creation of a “workers’ state,” demonstrating a liberal desire to preserve certain features of bourgeois society. His use of Lenin’s theory regarding the continuation of “bourgeois right” betrays an inattention to the context of Lenin’s remarks, and the notion that Lenin applied a liberal perspective to the question of working class political power does not ring true. The essay seems to conjure an ideal Lenin that can more readily be used as a reference point for contemporary Marxism. Cutrone’s claim that Lenin sought to “fulfill the desiderata of bourgeois society” rests on a strategy of non-confrontation with the messy historical details of Lenin’s relationship with liberal political ideals.

In this response, I will appraise the content of Lenin’s liberalism in more concrete terms, particularly the claim that Lenin’s notion of the persistence of “bourgeois right” in socialism undergirds his belief in “an articulated non-identity of state, political parties, and other voluntary civil society institutions such as labor unions.” We will see that the notion of “bourgeois right” is not evidence of a liberal perspective in Lenin, and that within Lenin’s discussion of socialist transition it supports an understanding of the state as an economic actor, not as the site of political mediation. Then I will show how the liberalism ascribed to Lenin is largely mythical in light of his political practice in the context of a so-called “workers’ state.” In the early Soviet state, the imperatives of economic construction and the management of power led Lenin both to a more radical rejection of liberal values in politics, as well as a reinforcement of bourgeois relations in production. While I reject Cutrone’s expansive interpretation of Lenin’s liberalism, there are other, more restrictive reasons for calling Lenin a liberal.

“Bourgeois Right” and socialist transformation

Lenin elaborates the idea of “bourgeois right” in The State and Revolution (1917), while discussing Marx’s Critique of the Gotha Program [1875], where the phrase “bourgeois right” is used. In that text, Marx describes two phases of communist society that follow the transformation of capitalism into communism. The first phase of communist society is characterized as one that has just emerged out of capitalism, while the “higher phase” develops on the basis of communist society itself.

The distinguishing feature of the first phase of communism is that individual consumption is linked to labor expended in production. The individual producer “gets from society a receipt that he has contributed such and such an amount of labor (after a deduction of labor for common reserves) and withdraws from society’s stores of the means of consumption an equal amount costed in labor terms.”1 This is a communist society, a “co-operatively organized society based on common ownership in the means of production,” in which the labor expended on products does not appear “as the value of these products.”2 Nonetheless, insofar as the common standard of labor expenditure is applied to all, the equal right of the producers “is still—at least in principle—a bourgeois right,” according to Marx.3 It is a bourgeois right because only in bourgeois society does the notion of abstract human equality, and thus the application of a common standard of justice to all people, become prevalent. In the context of Marx’s text, however, the notion of “bourgeois right” has little connection with the mediation of politics in society.

Marx writes of the “limited horizon of bourgeois right,” and describes how equal right on the basis of labor leads to inequalities due to the different needs and abilities of the producers.4 Lenin describes this “equal right” as “a violation of equality and an injustice.”5 He describes how communist society “is compelled to abolish at first only the ‘injustice’ of the means of production seized by individuals,” and is unable “to eliminate the other injustice, which consists in the distribution of consumer goods ‘according to the amount of labor performed’ (and not according to needs).”6 It is worth noting that the distribution of consumer goods “according to the amount of labor performed” is not a feature of capitalism, as Lenin implies. In a capitalist society, workers sell their labor-power in exchange for wages. The wages they receive, and thus the consumer goods they are able to acquire, do not have a direct connection with the amount of labor they perform, which would be the case in Marx’s conception of the first phase of communism. Instead of an exchange of commodities, as in capitalism, the first phase of communism features a conscious social organization of production, replacing the capitalist opposition between the producers and the conditions of production. As Marx wrote in Capital, in such a society “the social relations of the individual producers, both towards their labor and the products of their labor, are here transparent in their simplicity, in production as well as in distribution.”7 Lenin does not clearly distinguish the relation of the producers to their labor and their products in capitalism from this relation in socialism. Lenin therefore imagines that the concept of “bourgeois right” describes a determinate social relation that persists throughout the change from capitalism to communism.

After describing the first phase of communism in terms of the notion of “bourgeois right,” Lenin deduces from this notion that “there still remains the need for a state, which, while safeguarding the common ownership of the means of production, would safeguard equality in labor and in the distribution of products.”8 The continued existence of economic functions for a political state separate from society as a whole reveals that economic relations have not completely been brought under the collective control of the producers. Lenin further describes this state as a “bourgeois state, without the bourgeoisie.”9 Lenin’s assertion of the necessity for a bourgeois state does not follow from Marx’s argument in The Critique of the Gotha Program. Marx had long identified the state as an expression of class rule, and the existence of a state in a communist society is incompatible with Marx’s basic framework. Paresh Chattopadhyay has pointed to the strangeness of Lenin’s conclusion:

Inasmuch as the first phase [of communism] is inaugurated only after the transition period has come to an end—along with the proletarian dictatorship which had arisen on the ruins of the bourgeois state—the existence of the bourgeois state in this phase, then, would imply that, in the absence of the bourgeoisie (by Marx’s as well as Lenin’s assumption), the workers themselves recreate the bourgeois state (however partially) after having abolished their own. Does not this sound a little far-fetched, to say the least?10

It seems probable that this is not quite what Lenin had in mind. It seems likely that the “proletarian state” associated by Lenin with proletarian dictatorship was not clearly distinguished from the “bourgeois state without the bourgeoisie.”

For Lenin, the economic revolution presided over by the “armed workers” (proletarian dictatorship) consists of nationalization of industry, such that the state continues to persist as an economic actor and employer during the first phase of communism. From this, it seems inconsistent in the extreme to imagine that, after the workers’ state successfully nationalizes industry, the state withers away and is replaced by a bourgeois state that manages that same industry. It seems more consistent to interpret Lenin as describing the same state as both a “proletarian state” and as a “bourgeois state without the bourgeoisie” in different contexts. That Lenin uses Engels’s description of the Paris Commune as “no longer a state in the proper sense of the word” to refer to the state in the first phase of communism appears to support this interpretation.11

In The State and Revolution, Lenin’s notion of a bourgeois state without the bourgeoisie is central to his understanding of socialist transition. While Lenin’s discussion of the Paris Commune does focus on the theme of democracy and political emancipation, the discussion of “bourgeois right” grounds an understanding of the state as an economic actor in the transition period. The latter is all the more important in light of Lenin’s politics in the Soviet “workers’ state.”

Lenin understands the first phase of communism as necessitating the transformation of all workers into “hired employees of the state.”12 He writes, “the whole of society will have become a single office and a single factory, with equality of labor and pay.”13 His notion of a bourgeois state resting upon “bourgeois right” elides the difference between the capitalist organization of production and the socialist organization of production. While Marx assumed a fundamentally different organization of production from capitalism, and then discusses a parallel with capitalism—“bourgeois right”—Lenin deduces the existence of the main organizer of production—the state—from the abstract level of right. While the producers must co-operatively administer production for Marx to talk about communism, Lenin writes that, during this socialist phase (he describes the first phase of communism as socialism), all workers are to learn to “independently administer social production.”14 After this is accomplished, “the door will be thrown wide open for the transition from the first phase of communist society to its higher phase, and with it to the complete withering away of the state.”15 Essentially, Lenin conflates the revolutionary transformation of capitalism into communism with the transition to what Marx had called “the higher phase of communist society.”

The transformation of capitalism into communism, which for Marx must take place before we can speak of a new society, finds its equivalent for Lenin in something that occurs “overnight,” namely the replacing of the economic control of capitalists and bureaucrats with that of the “armed workers.”16 While Lenin writes of a long transitional period, the introduction of socialist economic planning is actually surprisingly swift, insofar as it merely consists of replacing the capitalists and bureaucrats. In a text written within months of The State and Revolution, Lenin explains that “a single State Bank” will constitute

as much as nine-tenths of the socialist apparatus…We can ‘lay hold of’ and ‘set in motion’ this ‘state apparatus’ (which is not fully a state apparatus under capitalism, but which will be so with us, under socialism) at one stroke, by a single decree, because the actual work of book-keeping, control, registering, accounting and counting is performed by employees, the majority of whom themselves lead a proletarian or semi-proletarian existence.17

This socialist apparatus, with a bourgeois state run by armed workers at its center, extends a certain factory discipline to the whole of society.18 Lenin’s understanding of “bourgeois right” leads him to see the “bourgeois state without the bourgeoisie” as an enforcer of equality and equal rights in production. It does not, contra Cutrone, lead to a liberal political perspective, or any notion of independent political parties whatsoever, despite the fact that the phrase “bourgeois right” sounds exceedingly liberal. Since it is the workers’ state that ends up enforcing “bourgeois right,” the liberal virtues of this state depend fundamentally on how the workers’ state is conceived. In The State and Revolution, Lenin supports the idea of a vanguard party assuming power and “directing and organizing the new system.”19 By Cutrone’s standards, this vision is discontinuous with the liberal tradition: he claims that, “the articulation of [political parties] with political power struck classical liberal thinkers as particularly dangerous.”20 If such a vanguard party enforces something called “bourgeois right,” this does not make it any more liberal.

The practice of politics

Cutrone claims that Lenin supported the non-identity of party and state, and states that Lenin’s party was meant to be “one party among many parties.” He wants to portray Lenin’s model of the party as a more liberal, less authoritarian formation than a social-democratic “party of the whole class,” but he is unable to offer a compelling argument. For at the Eleventh Party Congress in March 1922, Lenin identifies the party with the state: “… the state is the workers, the advanced section of the workers, the vanguard. We are the state.”21 This is hardly an isolated comment, and it reflected the political reality—the dictatorship of one party, which Lenin had defended for years. As he said in July 1919,

When we are reproached with having established a dictatorship of one party and, as you have heard, a united socialist front is proposed, we say, “Yes, it is a dictatorship of one party! This is what we stand for and we shall not shift from that position because it is the party that has won, in the course of decades, the position of vanguard of the entire factory and industrial proletariat. This party had won that position even before the revolution of 1905. It is the party that was at the head of the workers in 1905 and which since then—even at the time of the reaction after 1905 when the working-class movement was rehabilitated with such difficulty under the Stolypin Duma—merged with the working class and it alone could lead that class to a profound, fundamental change in the old society.”22

Not only did Lenin believe that the Bolshevik party in some sense “merged with the working class,” but he also berated the German Left for the “most incredibly and hopelessly muddled thinking” in distinguishing between party dictatorship and class dictatorship.23

Lenin often tried to justify a lack of democratic rights by identifying such rights with bourgeois society, as if they are merely identical with the freedom of capital.24 Rather than try to preserve “the possibility of politics within the working class,” as Cutrone imagines, Lenin refused to support freedom of the press for opposition parties.25 Within the party, the ban on factions moved by Lenin at the Tenth Party Congress in March 1921 helped contribute to a decidedly illiberal party culture.26 One could argue that Lenin’s approach was the only realistic one in Russia at the time or surmise that freedom of the press and free elections to the Soviets would have swept the Bolsheviks from power and empowered the forces of reaction. Lenin, however—and this is a crucial point—did not seem to see the fusion of party and state (inevitable or not) as problematic with respect to the building of socialism. The justice of this fusion was predicated on the assumed identity of interest of the masses and the Bolshevik Party, a party described by Lenin as having “as far back as 1905 and even earlier merged with the entire revolutionary proletariat.”27

With regard to the trade unions, while Lenin did not identify them with the state or the party, he was also not a principled champion of their independence. In January 1918, for example, Lenin called for the expulsion from the Party of the Bolshevik trade unionist A. Lozovsky, who, according to Lenin, refused “to accept the idea that it is the duty of the trade unions to take upon themselves state functions.”28 In “Left-Wing” Communism—An Infantile Disorder, Lenin denounced as one of the “counter-revolutionary machinations” of the Mensheviks their defense of trade union independence from the state, despite the fact that Cutrone cites this text as exemplifying some sort of liberal approach.29

The trade union debate of 1920-1921, mentioned by Cutrone, highlighted Lenin’s opposition to the complete subsumption of the unions in the state. This should not be seen, however, as a principled rejection of his previous positions, but rather as a response to a changing political situation. Lenin came to characterize the function of the trade unions as contradictory: as “participants in the exercise of state power” the unions would need coercion, but in their key educative role, persuasion had to be their mode of operating.30 Lenin had accused Trotsky of ignoring the latter function of trade unions. Unlike Trotsky, Lenin acknowledged the need for the trade unions to play a mediating role between the workers and the state. Since Lenin saw the state as fundamentally representing working class interests, workers’ struggles could only be justified as a correction of “bureaucratic distortions of the proletarian state.”31 Lenin’s overall view of the unions was instrumental rather than liberal or democratic:

Just as the very best factory, with the very best motors and first-class machines, will be forced to remain idle if the transmission belts from the motors to the machines are damaged, so our work of socialist construction must meet with inevitable disaster if the trade unions—the transmission belts from the Communist Party to the masses—are badly fitted or function badly.”32

While the trade unions were supposed to play an educational role, the party was to have authority in industry until the time when the workers become capable of self-management. During the trade union debate, Lenin stigmatized the “syndicalist deviation” of those who wanted the unions to take on managerial functions. “Why have a Party,” Lenin asked in January 1921, if industrial management is to be left to the trade unions, “nine-tenths of whose members are non-Party workers?”33 It is here, in the relation between the workers and their work—and not in regard to the function of a political party—that Lenin could be said to be a liberal.

With regard to the socialist transformation of industry, Lenin argued that the question of collective or individual and dictatorial administration of industry has nothing to do with which class is the ruling class. Against opposition from the left, Lenin appealed to the example of liberal capitalism in a March 1920 speech:

You know that one of the points in dispute, one that arouses the liveliest discussion both in the press and at meetings, is that of one-man management or corporate management. I think that the preference for corporate management not infrequently betrays an inadequate comprehension of the tasks confronting the Republic; what is more, it often testifies to insufficient class-consciousness. When I reflect on this question, I always feel like saying that the workers have not yet learned enough from the bourgeoisie….Look how the bourgeoisie administer the state; how they have organized the bourgeois class. In the old days, could you have found anyone who shared the views of the bourgeoisie and was their loyal defender, and yet argued that individual authority is incompatible with the administration of the state? If there had been such a blockhead among the bourgeoisie he would have been laughed to scorn by his own class fellows, and would not have been allowed to talk or hold forth at any important meeting of capitalists and bourgeois. They would have asked him what the question of administration through one person or through a corporate body had to do with the question of class. The shrewdest and richest bourgeoisies are the British and American; the British are in many respects more experienced, and they know how to rule better than the Americans. And do they not furnish us with examples of maximum individual dictatorship, of maximum speed in administration, and yet they keep the power fully and entirely in the hands of their own class?34

In a December 1920 speech on the trade union question, Lenin made a decidedly liberal argument as well, denouncing the slogan of “industrial democracy”: “Democracy is a category proper only to the political sphere,” he insisted.35 The liberal assumption is that democracy is rightfully restricted to the sphere of politics, while the workplace is governed by purely economic imperatives.

Lenin’s liberalism, to the extent that it exists after the October Revolution, is not the sort that Cutrone imagines. On the basis of an understanding of socialist transformation as nationalization, Lenin was able to reconcile the task of economic development on the backs of the workers with the idea of proletarian dictatorship. In this theoretical universe, an incredible amount of weight was put on the correct politics of the ruling party, the minority that was actually implementing this proletarian dictatorship. In this way, a certain preservation of bourgeois conditions was coupled with a decidedly illiberal narrative regarding the just dictatorship of a party that had “merged” with the masses.

  • 1 Karl Marx, “Critique of the Gotha Program,” in Later Political Writings (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2010), 213.
  • 2 Ibid., 213.
  • 3 Ibid., 214.
  • 4 Ibid., 214.
  • 5 V. I. Lenin, “The State and Revolution,” in The Lenin Anthology, Robert C. Tucker (New York: Norton, 1975), 376.
  • 6 Ibid., 377.
  • 7 Karl Marx, Capital: A Critique of Political Economy (London: Penguin, 1990), 1: 172.
  • 8 Lenin, The State and Revolution, 378.
  • 9 Ibid., 381.
  • 10 Paresh Chattopadhyay, “The Economic Content of Socialism: Marx vs. Lenin,” Review of Radical Political Economics 24, no. 3&4 (1992), 108.
  • 11 Lenin, The State and Revolution, 383.
  • 12 Ibid.
  • 13 Ibid.
  • 14 Ibid.
  • 15 Ibid., 384.
  • 16 Ibid., 382.
  • 17 Lenin, “Can the Bolsheviks Retain State Power?” in The Lenin Anthology, 401.
  • 18 Lenin, The State and Revolution, 383.
  • 19 Ibid., 328.
  • 20 Chris Cutrone, “Lenin’s Liberalism,” Platypus Review #36 (June 2011).
  • 21 V. I. Lenin, “Political Report of the Central Committee of the R.C.P. (B.),” in Collected Works, vol. 33 (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1966), 278.
  • 22 V. I. Lenin, “Speech at the First All-Russia Congress of Workers in Education and Socialist Culture,” in Collected Works, vol. 29 (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1965), 535.
  • 23 Lenin, “Left-Wing” Communism—An Infantile Disorder, in The Lenin Anthology, 567.
  • 24 Lenin, “Speech at the First All-Russia Congress of Workers in Education and Socialist Culture,” 534.
  • 25 Simon Pirani, The Russian Revolution in Retreat, 1920-24: Soviet Workers and the New Communist Elite (New York: Routledge, 2008), 100-101.
  • 26 Ibid., 89.
  • 27 V. I. Lenin, “Letter to the Workers and Peasants Apropos of the Victory Over Kolchak,” in Collected Works, vol. 29 (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1965), 559.
  • 28 Hal Draper, The “Dictatorship of the Proletariat” from Marx to Lenin (New York: Monthly Review Press, 1987), 100-101.
  • 29 Lenin, “Left-Wing” Communism—An Infantile Disorder, 573.
  • 30 V. I. Lenin, “The Role and Functions of the Trade Unions Under the New Economic Policy,” in Collected Works, vol. 33 (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1966), 193.
  • 31 Ibid., 187.
  • 32 Ibid., 192.
  • 33 V. I. Lenin, “The Party Crisis,” in Collected Works, vol. 32 (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1965), 50.
  • 34 V. I. Lenin, “Speech Delivered at the Third All-Russia Congress of Water Transport Workers,” in Collected Works, vol. 30 (Moscow: Progress Publishers 1977), 426-427.
  • 35 Lenin, “The Trade Unions, the Present Situation and Trotsky’s Mistakes,” in Collected Works, vol. 32 (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1965), 26.

Comments

Noa Rodman

15 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Noa Rodman on October 8, 2011

Is David Adam from the SPGB? I think he doesn't understand that Lenin didn't believe socialism was possible in (relatively) backward Russia, hence Lenin consciously was striving for state-capitalism. So Lenin was a good old Marxist, meaning he knew that the conditions limit what is possible, and the stage Russia was going to go through, as Lenin argued decades prior, was capitalism and not socialism. I think Cutrone should also be careful not to confuse this, but he's right that as a Marxist, Lenin was a liberal in the sense that Engels can be said to be a liberal.

'ol Eddy was well aware of this. After citing from Engels' Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, Bernstein makes the point that Engels was in favor of night watchman state, completely the opposite of the Lassalleans:

[quote=Bernstein]Man sieht, es wird dem Staat im Grunde eine nur transitorische, zeitweilige Rolle zuerkannt, die wesentlich die einer unterdrückenden oder niederhaltenden Gewalt ist – also das, was Lassalle gerade die Rolle eines Nachtwächters der jeweilig herrschenden Klasse nennt, und wenn mit dem Bestehen verschiedener Gesellschaftsklassen die Klassengegensätze und der Anlaß zur Niederhaltung von Klassen aufhören, hört nach dieser Theorie auch der Staat auf. Sie zieht sich durch alle Schriften von Marx und Engels und ist von letzterem später in der Schrift: Der Ursprung der Familie, des Privateigentums und des Staates näher begründet worden.[/quote]

dave c

15 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by dave c on October 8, 2011

No, I'm not from the SPGB, and not really influenced by them either. When you say that Lenin saw the necessity for some sort of capitalist development (given Russian conditions), I can only agree. Lenin's appeal to the example of liberal capitalism is highlighted in the above article. I have to say, I think it is very clear that I was taking issue with the characterization of Lenin as a liberal specifically with regard to the mediation of politics in society, and the idea of competing political parties, etc.

Noa Rodman

15 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Noa Rodman on October 8, 2011

Ah ok.
When you quote Lenin though;
dave

This is hardly an isolated comment, and it reflected the political reality—the dictatorship of one party, which Lenin had defended for years. As he said in July 1919

iirc Lenin was speaking very specifically against the coalition with the left-SR (because with the struggle in the countryside they became a petty-bourgeois party) - but just the fact that there was such a coalition in the beginning stage of the revolution shows Lenin's liberalism I guess.

When you follow that up with;
dave

Not only did Lenin believe that the Bolshevik party in some sense “merged with the working class,” but he also berated the German Left for the “most incredibly and hopelessly muddled thinking” in distinguishing between party dictatorship and class dictatorship.

There's none other than Stalin to oppose such 'merger' of party and working class (Stalin here's probably opposing ZInoviev):

[quote=Stalin]People often say that we have a “dictatorship of the Party.” Someone will say: I am for the dictatorship of the Party. I recall that the expression figured in one of our congress resolutions, in fact, I believe, in a resolution of the Twelfth Congress. This, of course, was an oversight. Apparently, some comrades think that ours is a dictatorship of the Party, not of the working class. But that is sheer nonsense, comrades. If that contention were right, then Lenin was wrong, for he taught us that the Soviets implement the dictatorship, while the Party guides the Soviets. Then Lenin was wrong, for he spoke of the dictatorship of the proletariat, not of the dictatorship of the Party. If the contention about “dictatorship of the Party” were correct, there would be no need for the Soviets, there would have been no point in Lenin, at the Eleventh Congress, speaking of the necessity to draw a “distinction between Party and Soviet organs.” But from what quarter, and how, has this nonsense penetrated into our Party? It is the result of the passion for the “Party principle,” which does so much harm precisely to the Party principle, without quotation marks. It is the result of a disregard for questions of theory, of the habit of putting forward slogans without considering them properly beforehand, for very little thought is required to realise the utter absurdity of substituting the dictatorship of the Party for the dictatorship of the class. Does it need proof that this absurdity may well give rise to confusion and misunderstanding in the Party? [/quote]

I don't think Stalin ever supported the German Left, but here he does correctly defend Lenin's views. I could give more citations of Stalin (around 1923-24), on the non-identity between state and party, state and proletariat, etc.

On the Chattopadhyay quote. It's not the workers who recreate the bourgeois state without the bourgeoisie. The state results from the social relations, which as long as they are capitalist, means the state is going to exist. Marxism 101

On bourgeois right, worth checking out are Pēteris Stučka writings:
http://books.google.com/books?id=zPMvQPoyuFoC&lpg

dave c

15 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by dave c on October 9, 2011

Well, I think that Stalin's words should be taken with more than a grain of salt. The idea of the Soviets implementing the dictatorship of the proletariat, and not the party alone (and therefore the absurdity of identifying them) is entirely compatible with what most people would consider party dictatorship, given the repression of dissent and the restriction of freedom of the press. Is the point Lenin was making against the German Left very obscure? Is it utterly trivial? My interpretation of it, according to which Lenin identified the interests of the working class with the party, and for this reason rejects the distinction between party dictatorship and class dictatorship, is fairly straightforward, and consistent with lots of the things Lenin said, some of which are in the article. I don't see how Stalin helps us interpret Lenin here. Stalin only appears to respond to the issue at hand. Some distinction between party and Soviet organs is quite obviously compatible with single party rule of Soviet organs.

On Chattopadhyay: he is entirely clear that a state would exist while capitalist social relations exist. It is Lenin who writes about a state in Marx's first phase of communism, when capitalist social relations have supposedly been abolished. Wasn't that clear from the article? The idea (which Chattopadhyay attributes to Lenin and ridicules) that the working class recreates a bourgeois state is clearly described by Chattopadhyay as taking place after the transition to communism. I actually questioned whether this is the best interpretation of Lenin, but this has nothing to do with any incomprehension of "Marxism 101."

ccutrone

15 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by ccutrone on October 10, 2011

Stalinists did not so much claim the merger/identity of party, state and society as enacted it in practice.

In fact, in theory, they claimed the non-identity of party, state and society, and claimed indeed that the party was in constant war with "capitalist-roaders" in both the state and society -- as well as within the party itself, i.e., against those who were supposedly "subjectively revolutionary" but "objectively counterrevolutionary" (e.g., "Trotskyites," et al.).

But anti-Stalinists, i.e., "anti-authoritarians," "liberals," "anarchists," and others, also either claim or politically enact the identification/merging/conflation of political party, state and society. For instance, it is a common mistake to interpret Lenin's argument for party organization as a model for the state or even society as a whole, which it was not. Or, there is the mistaken modeling and application of "democracy" to all domains of life, as in Michael Albert's Parecon. But this violates concrete realities -- and how they might be changed.

I think that Lenin, by contrast, thought that the issue of potential social emancipation was a matter of political contestation and not a priori certainty. I think that Lenin was not dogmatically authoritarian like Stalin and others, but political, which is different.

Everyone believes that they have a correct and legitimate perspective. Stalin probably believed sincerely that he was following Lenin in most important respects. So Stalin's words must be "taken with a grain of salt" -- as do Lenin's, of course! We should never simply take people at their word, but interrogate matters further.

My point, in the article I wrote to which David Adam responded (which I presented at the Left Forum 2011 in New York and at the Marxist Literary Group's summer 2011 Institute on Culture and Society) and for which I published a rejoinder, is to call attention to the relation between Lenin's thought and action, which I consider to express perspectives that have become obscured, repressed and forgotten in subsequent history and so potentially stand in need of recovery.

Perhaps others can maintain that there's not anything more to Lenin than what they already think. I was pointing to indications that there is more to Lenin as a historical figure, from which a present critical approach to Marxism could learn.

Malva

15 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Malva on October 10, 2011

Perhaps others can maintain that there's not anything more to Lenin than what they already think. I was pointing to indications that there is more to Lenin as a historical figure, from which a present critical approach to Marxism could learn.

Is it just me or does anyone else find discussion of Lenin on libcom to be a bit gross?

prec@riat

15 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by prec@riat on October 10, 2011

Malva

Is it just me or does anyone else find discussion of Lenin on libcom to be a bit gross?

Agreed... Yet another "look at Lenin". Lenin's "novelty" was combining Kautskyism and Blanquism into a political organization to seize and consolidate State power in a period of insurrectionary class conflict. Another eulogy, or debate about the historical specifics, for how fascinating it was to combine the two tendencies of that era of the Left which were the most elitist and disdainful of the potentialities for the working class to liberate itself; seems out of place on a forum devoted to libertarian communism.

Related content

Submitted by Steven. on June 7, 2007

Right so stuff is definitely beginning to happen now with this.

Basically the government is offering all these different sets of public sector workers 2-2.5% pay increases, at a time when real inflation - cost of living increases - are at 4.5%. This is effectively a 2-2.5% pay cut, and obviously totally unacceptable to those of us who work there.

Who here works in the different sectors? What's going on at your place?

All union-co-ordinated action seems quite weak, and most importantly is keeping everyone separate. Of course, they are forced to do this by anti-union laws. We're all facing the same deal but the unions won't act together, which is frustrating.

So this thread is to discuss and share news about what's going on with this struggle, and if there are any ways we can help push things forward. Enjoy!

steven

19 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by steven on June 7, 2007

Right well from what I know:
Nurses at the RCN, previously a no strike union, are balloting I believe.

Postal workers just voted for a national strike, but no date set yet: http://www.cwu.org/news.asp?step=3&NID=1724

PCS went on strike Mayday, don't know if they're planning more

Local government, where I work, Unison has just started a survey of members to see if we would accept the deal, and secondly if we'd be prepared to take industrial action for a better one. Unison's asking for 5%, or £1,000, whichever's greater. Thing is we only found out on like Monday, and the dealine's tomorrow, so hardly anyone's getting asked in our branch. Our team's meeting was the only one in our dept this week, so we're the only ones who voted (we voted for industrial action)

Lots of people are my place aren't aware of the dispute, a lot weren't even aware that we were entitled to an annual pay rise every april, so it's a bit of an uphill struggle. Still have spoken to lots of people about it, helped put on and get people to our team's first union meeting, signed a couple of people up, etc. Don't get me wrong, I don't support Unison, or unions in general, but being a member will protect you if we go on strike, and it's worth joining for the insurance benefits I think.

Mike Harman

19 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on June 7, 2007

I think my current job might be affected by this, but the new one in a month definitely won't be, so I'll miss anything that happens.

steven

19 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by steven on June 7, 2007

Mike Harman

I think my current job might be affected by this, but the new one in a month definitely won't be, so I'll miss anything that happens.

yeah i don't know what's happening with education workers... I haven't heard anything. Maybe their previous pay deal hasn't expired - anyone?

I know teaching assistants in some boroughs are being regraded...

Joseph Kay

19 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on June 21, 2007

bump. royal mail 24hr strike on june 29th

steven

19 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by steven on June 26, 2007

right well it looks like we've actually got more time for consultation. we've called a meeting of everyone in our building about the offer. Also at the meeting we'll discuss pensions, and H&S (working temp this summer). Because with H&S meetings you can invite all workers, not just union members I suggested we call an H&S meeting, and append the pay/pensions stuff to it to increase participation, but that fell on deaf ears. Still, the email says non-members can come, then join, so I suppose that's almost as good, though we have some staff in the GMB (I invited and got a GMB member along to our dept meeting, will try the same for the big one).

Don't know what's happening with the rest of the place, cos our building only has what 5-700 people out of 10,000. I expect we'll reject the offer and back industrial action though. We've been told that public sector unions will be attempting to co-ordinate action and demands - but I reckon they probably won't. We should get a postie along to our meeting. I might try to get to some postal workers picket line as well if I have time.

I need to try to increase participation in all this in my dept at least - any tips anyone?

The Button - your excellent shop stewarding guide got lost somewhere - could you PM it back to one of the admins to put it up in Organise?

steven

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by steven on July 10, 2007

Our building meeting voted for industrial action, we're doing the consultation this month.

A ballot of Unison health workers has been called off pending further talks:
http://unison.org.uk/news/news_view.asp?did=3487

Don't know what the score is with other health workers like RCN though?

Next postal strike is this Thursday I believe

RPG

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by RPG on July 10, 2007

Steven - there won't be a NHS dispute over pay. The union's are doing a deal which will mean England follows Wales and Scotland and pays the 2.5% in full (except its already 3 months late).

steven

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by steven on July 10, 2007

RPG

Steven - there won't be a NHS dispute over pay. The union's are doing a deal which will mean England follows Wales and Scotland and pays the 2.5% in full (except its already 3 months late).

That's awful. So the RCN have called off the ballot? I thought nurses were only offered 2%?

A lot of local councils even budgeted for 3%.

ernie

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by ernie on July 14, 2007

Steven, were us expecting the RCN to call a ballot? They, Unison, the T&G and GMB have sliced up NHS workers very nicely thank you. From what I can gather no one really has a clue what the hell is happening. Also the question of pay is not upper most in most NHS workers minds a present, whether they will have a job, be regraded, have to reapply for their job or simply get to the end of the next shift working without some poor sod dying due to the lack of staff and sheer numbers is the most pressing question at present. On these issues, which are of direct and great importance to health workers, the unions have zip to say.
As for the pay deal, it has been divided into two payments and it is also a pay cut given the RPI is over 4% I think. The fact it is staggered means that it is even more of a pay cut i.e., the full pay rise only takes effect from October. The unions happily agreed to this deal, and why shouldn't they, they seeing their role is to be the spearhead of the managements shafting of the workers.
The unions have now called a national demonstration for the 13th October, which will be a means for defusing the mounting anger amongst Health workers faced with the endless attacks and demands. However, it could also offer an opportunity for workers (both health and others) to meet and discuss. The unions of course will parade themselves as doing something, this will be pretty sickening for the thousands how have lost their jobs, those students desperately looking for jobs, those whose pay has been cut already, those faced with working with less and less fellow workers and having to process ever more numbers of patients. In fact it is a downright insult.

Peter Good

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Peter Good on July 14, 2007

Steven,
It's an idea you might like to consider.

Back in the Winter of Discontent of the late 70's we had a thriving COHSE branch in our hospital. All of us were reluctant to go on strike and threaten patient care.

We invented something we called "imaginative Industrial action".
This worked from a core of shop stewards and activists. We ignored our trade union hierarchy and certainly the RCN (of whom we considered to be run by retired matrons and another branch of management).

Our actions included: ward and admin office occupation; an impromtu band in the foyer of a Health Authority building; the banning of catering staff serving tea to managers; using the press imaginatively; when nurses were told that in future they were to wear the old starched hat we had a couple of male nurses so attired; leafleting visitors; running managerial decisions up the grievance ladder, & etc.

The unions came down on us heavily. We learned not to trust any Marxist abbreviation. By winning visitors to our side and refusing to threaten patient care we won some useful press attention.

Anarchist need to step away from mainstream TU activity. Small groups using cunning and imagination are both inspiring and empowering.

Regards
Peter Good(TCA)

the button

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by the button on July 14, 2007

It's worth pointing out that this paydeal affects other sectors as well -- many employers in the charity or "not-for-profit" sector offer paydeals in line with public sector pay.

Steven.

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on July 14, 2007

the button

It's worth pointing out that this paydeal affects other sectors as well -- many employers in the charity or "not-for-profit" sector offer paydeals in line with public sector pay.

Again handy that we group them together in our sectors: http://libcom.org/sectors/public

Mike Harman

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on July 16, 2007

CROYDON UNISON
CONSULTATIVE PAY BALLOT

VOTE TO REJECT THE MISERABLE OFFER-
UNLESS YOU WANT TO ACCEPT A PAY CUT!

We've been offered 2% for this year's pay award by our employers.
With the Retail Price Index currently at a level of about
4.5% [ it was 4.8% not long ago ], we're being offered a pay cut in
real terms. Pay is increasing across the economy by 3.6%

A strong vote to reject should make our employers think again. If
they don't, we'll be balloted to formally reject the offer and take
industrial action. WE HAVE TO BE PREPARED TO DO THAT.

The Government want to use public sector workers to force down
pay settlements and control inflation. But that means we lose out
relative to other workers-especially the rich ones in the City who
get far more in Christmas bonuses than we get in a whole year!

That's why we're looking to take co-ordinated action with all the
other public sector unions, so we'd be out alongside postal
workers, teachers, civil servants and others in real united action.

UNISON nationlly is recommending that you reject the offer.

We deserve a decent wage for the valuable services we provide-
vote to reject the offer and be prepared to take industrial action to
get what we deserve.

SAY NO TO A PAY CUT-REJECT THE OFFER

http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2674

Spikymike

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on July 17, 2007

Where is this 'consultative' pay ballot . Heard nothing about it up here in Manchester (except a lefty steward commented there was a proposal for a consultative ballot as to whether to have a ballot on induastrial action!!) and nothing on the UNISON Web site last time I looked.

Mike Harman

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on July 17, 2007

I had a ballot paper saying vote for the agreement.

I filled out a 'no' vote, then my daughter tore it up :oops:

Steven.

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on July 18, 2007

Mike Harman

I had a ballot paper saying vote for the agreement.

I filled out a 'no' vote, then my daughter tore it up :oops:

Is this pensions or pay? Is the education workers pay deal different? Cos Unison's saying vote no for local govt pensions deal

Spikymike

Where is this 'consultative' pay ballot . Heard nothing about it up here in Manchester (except a lefty steward commented there was a proposal for a consultative ballot as to whether to have a ballot on induastrial action!!) and nothing on the UNISON Web site last time I looked.

Consultation is workplace based - my branch we stuffed 3,000 enveloped to put in pigeonholes. Maybe they're not doing every place, just a sample. If a yes comes out there should be a ballot for action:
Council strike looms closer
http://www.unison.org.uk/news/news_view.asp?did=3520

Mike Harman

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on July 18, 2007

Steven. pensions. And I had a leaflet for a yes vote.

Steven.

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on July 19, 2007

Mike Harman

Steven. pensions. And I had a leaflet for a yes vote.

Shit sorry that was a mistake in my post - I meant Unison's asking for a Yes pensions vote, and No pay one.

catch what's your pay deal at the moment, are you getting a 2-2.5% offer as well, or are you still covered by a previous deal?

Mike Harman

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on July 19, 2007

No idea about my current place, I think there's a deal about to go into force in August but not sure how it all works.

Steven.

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on July 19, 2007

Airport firefighters and engineers vote to strike. voline wrote a story, my net access was buggered, will post up tomorrow.

Heinz - private sectors workers strike over their sub inflation deal of 3.6%
http://libcom.org/news/heinz-workers-defy-union-walk-out-19072007

PCS are consulting through August on what type of industrial action to take

Post office are staggering strikes in different sectors to maximise disruption (see posties thread http://libcom.org/forums/organise/postal-workers-ballot-results )

NUT are set to strike maybe Jan 2008

There is pressure from the rank and file for other unions to speed everything up, it's stupid we have the same pay freeze and are waiting so other workers can be defeated before we even start fighting.

Mike Harman

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on July 29, 2007

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,2136745,00.html

Mike Harman

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on August 1, 2007

http://tinyurl.com/yvw7vw

COUNCIL workers could strike in a row over pay.

Union members working for Kirklees have backed plans to ballot members on industrial action.

And they say they could join other public sector workers – including health staff and teachers – in an Autumn of Discontent.

Unison, the local government workers’ union, balloted thousands of members working for Kirklees after talks broke down over a 2% pay offer.

Union leaders say the employers’ offer is effectively a 2.4% pay cut as inflation is running at 4.4%.

They organised a ballot to move towards action and the proposal was passed by 2,365 to 251.

steven

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by steven on August 1, 2007

This is what happened at my work. Unison are doing the national count now

Mike Harman

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on August 1, 2007

You know the numbers for your work Steven? Kirklees looks like around 88%

Mike Harman

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on August 1, 2007

social workers on strike in Glasgow:

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2007/497/index.html?id=np1609.htm
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=12640
http://www.unison.org.uk/news/news_view.asp?did=3540
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6913047.stm

SIX HUNDRED Social Care Workers, members of Unison and employees of Glasgow city council Social Work Services, began all-out indefinite strike action on 24 July in pursuit of their claim for a higher grading.

steven

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by steven on August 1, 2007

Mike Harman

You know the numbers for your work Steven? Kirklees looks like around 88%

1000 voted to reject the pay offer, 150-odd to accept. 40% response from union members - better than I thought. About a third of the workplace in Unison.

Mike Harman

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on August 4, 2007

Steven.

catch what's your pay deal at the moment, are you getting a 2-2.5% offer as well, or are you still covered by a previous deal?

Finally worked it out.

We got 3% applied 1st August - which was agreed following the AUT strikes last year. According to this it could last for a while. More details here: http://www.ucu.org.uk/index.cfm?articleid=1918

I think it's something like 3% August, 2.5 February 3% August - that kind of thing. Trying to find details on UCU's site is a nightmare.

Steven.

19 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on August 6, 2007

from Unison:

In Local Government branches have voted to reject the 2% pay claim and will no vote in a strike ballot.
When voting UNISON asked members to consider the following (from www.unison.org.uk)
Say no to 2%
- Inflation is running at 4.3% and earnings across the economy are rising by 3.6%
- the cost of living is currently increasing by 4.5%
- increases in the cost of housing, fuel and energy, council tax and childcare are even higher
- pay across the economy is rising by 3.6%

UNISON is co-ordinating our pay campaign with Local Government health and other service groups and with other public sector unions

If you vote to reject the offer you must be prepared to take part in substantial industrial action to improve it, including "all out" strike action."

Clearly branches/members thought this is unacceptable and will now ballot to go on strike action.

In Health they have now made an 'improved offer'
(again from our website)
The offer:
"Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales will get the full 2.5% increase recommended by the pay review body immediately, backdated to 1 April this year.
The award will still be staged in England, with staff getting 1.5% payable from 1 April and the remaining 1% from 1 November.

"more money for the lowest paid. From 1 November there will be a £400 flat rate increase for those on Bands 1 and 2.
Those on Bands 3 and 4 will receive an additional £38 as well as the 2.5%. This will be payable in all 4 UK countries;

in England only, there will be additional money for staff training targeted directly at those non-clinical staff who often lose out when training budgets are cut; also in England only, there will be £38 paid to staff on Bands 5, 6, 7 and 8(a) who are required to register to practice – this money is a contribution to their professional fees."

Health members will now be balloted on whether or not to accept this offer.
Unison are not making a recomendation it is for you to make your own minds up. The website states that this is the best offer we can get through negotiations.

SO as in Local Government if you reject it you will have tp be prepared to go on strike.

There is a blog that has been set up by some nhsworkers that are advocating members reject this offer and that can be found here www.nhsworker.blogspot.com

Lets stand firm together and show the government that 2 or 2.5% (as our health conference has already said!) is not acceptable.

Steven.

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on August 9, 2007

Apparently PCS are rejecting further 1-day strikes, so any more action should be bigger than that.

Unison education accepted - but UCU hadn't yet. one Uni worker on urban75 said this:

It will be particularly interesting for us if UCU reject it and go for a strike. Obviously we (support staff) won't want to cross picket lines, and we unanimously rejected the deal in a workplace meeting, but as the GMB has officially accepted it we can't go out with them without potentially wrecking the joint pay talks forum.

Mike Harman

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on August 17, 2007

Glasgow social workers appear to have won:

Glasgow strike resolved

(10/08/07) Striking social care workers in Glasgow will return to work on Monday after voting to accept a new offer from the council.

The move puts an end to the long-running dispute over pay and grading which has seen more than 550 social care staff in the city on strike since 24 July.

They were angry about the results of a job evaluation that didn't reflect the responsibilities of the job they carry out.

The improved offer follows lengthy negotiations between UNISON and the council. It gives all but a handful of workers the grading they were seeking.

Mike Kirby, the union's Glasgow convenor, said: "The new offer delivers the grade 5 that our members felt best reflected the responsibilities they carry out. The proposal also leaves open the details on how people will progress beyond the initial salary, and this will be the subject of further negotiation."

He added: "The solidarity of the members on strike was instrumental in delivering the key objective that they sought. They have a right to be satisfied with the outcome of their action."

http://www.unison.org.uk/news/news_view.asp?did=3592

Also CWI Scotland has article:
http://socialistworld.net/eng/2007/08/13scotland.html

Mike Harman

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on August 17, 2007

700 workers at Manchester Mental Health trust - ballot finished two days ago about branch rep suspension: http://www.unison.org.uk/news/news_view.asp?did=3602

Also Coca Cola workers might be back on strike:
http://www.packagingnews.co.uk/news/731329/Strike-action-back-cards-Coca-Cola-Wakefield-talks-stall/

Orkney ferries - workers just rejected second pay offer 5-1 - 3.8% up from 2.5
http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=100418

Steven.

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on August 17, 2007

Looks like unison's trying to sell out the health workers:
http://libcom.org/news/health-workers-prepare-ballot-unison-leaders-back-15082007

Dundee_United

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Dundee_United on August 17, 2007

Glasgow social workers

It's social care workers, not social workers, as that was basically what it was about. Their struggle I think had more to do with the ramifications from single status (social care workers had their work regraded and faced onerous assessments etc in future on the nature of their 'skills'). Was a good victory though. I'll write something up about it.

germs90

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by germs90 on August 17, 2007

RPG

Steven - there won't be a NHS dispute over pay. The union's are doing a deal which will mean England follows Wales and Scotland and pays the 2.5% in full (except its already 3 months late).

I beg to differ.

We had a workplace (blood centre) meeting/info surgery today on the pay offer - Amicus's ballot has already opened + a few members have voted already - UNISON are mailing ballot forms from Monday. UNISON members have explicitly claimed that any payrise less than inflation, whether staged or unstaged, is not good enough.

Amicus nationally may be recommending acceptance but that doesn't wash on the ground. It means nothing - all it takes is a small amount of actual, practical, face-to-face campaigning. I am yet to meet a health worker who says they will vote yes. UNISON members in health have number-crunched up a table which shows the cut for each point on each NHS payband. It's a no brainer. Like gold plated platinum in propaganda terms.

It is very easy to say 'the unions will sell us out', but why let it happen, yet again, this time? If we do then more fool us. It's no cause to be smug + say 'told you so' if public sector workers end up forced to take a paycut - it is cause for shame. Forget your ideological hang-ups about different organisations + think about what will actually work right now in the real world.

At the same time as encouraging all union members to use their vote, we have to talk in depth about the best tactics for action, before public service workers are railroaded into more token one-day all out strikes. Then look at how to apply pressure so that those tactics are on the table as serious options for mass participation. Unfortunately we do not have the luxury of much time. That may mean making use of unsavoury + 'dirty' structures... But it has to all come back to what is best for the workers as a whole (not the personal political cause) in this particular fight.

Union members are not ignorant - so many are aware that casting a vote once a year is not anything like real democracy. They know that voting alone on this pay issue is not enough, + in my experience do think in a farsighted way about possibilites + outcomes.

3 words: Irish. Nurses. Organisation.

Dundee_United

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Dundee_United on August 18, 2007

At the same time as encouraging all union members to use their vote, we have to talk in depth about the best tactics for action, before public service workers are railroaded into more token one-day all out strikes. Then look at how to apply pressure so that those tactics are on the table as serious options for mass participation. Unfortunately we do not have the luxury of much time. That may mean making use of unsavoury + 'dirty' structures... But it has to all come back to what is best for the workers as a whole (not the personal political cause) in this particular fight.

Union members are not ignorant - so many are aware that casting a vote once a year is not anything like real democracy. They know that voting alone on this pay issue is not enough, + in my experience do think in a farsighted way about possibilites + outcomes.

I would tend to agree with this approach wholeheartedly. The key question though is more really about the 'how'. That's a bigger question. There's an 'us' as a political movement, an 'us' as a tendency in the labour movement, an 'us' as the labour movement, and an 'us' as a class. I think we need to be very specific about each of these, and how they interrelate, what forces are at play, and how we influence them.

I have some questions. I tried to raise some of this in the thread that that AWL guy started about the postal workers, but Devrim shot me down on that one without quite explaining where he was coming from, altho I'm sure he has an interesting perspective.

How does the libcom admin team see dispatch functioning?

Does the libcom admin team aim to use dispatch to try and generalise the public sector pay disputes?

What is SolFed's position on how to develop things here?

I like where germs90 is coming from on this and have heard interesting things about initiatives from them and others in their part of the world on this, but I want some organisational perspectives here as I'm yet to have my mind made up about what exactly to do in the current situation.

Joseph Kay

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on August 18, 2007

Dundee_United

How does the libcom admin team see dispatch functioning?

Does the libcom admin team aim to use dispatch to try and generalise the public sector pay disputes?

to encourage direct communication between workers within and between sectors, ideally to the point where the struggle can be controlled and coordinated from below and to communicate news and information within and between sectors about what other workers are doing (many posties down here weren't sure when their next strike dates were, let alone that there were wildcats in glasgow)

Dundee_United

What is SolFed's position on how to develop things here?

don't know - generally people seem up for distributing dispatch, and this is what we're doing locally in brighton and in edinburgh i think. not a great advert for federalism, i'll ask around to see what's happening and what we think we should be doing.

Devrim

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Devrim on August 18, 2007

Joseph K.

don't know - generally people seem up for distributing dispatch, and this is what we're doing locally in brighton and in edinburgh i think. not a great advert for federalism, i'll ask around to see what's happening and what we think we should be doing.

No, a good a argument for centralism though.

Devrim

germs90

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by germs90 on August 18, 2007

This

Joseph K.

...to encourage direct communication between workers within and between sectors, ideally to the point where the struggle can be controlled and coordinated from below and to communicate news and information within and between sectors about what other workers are doing (many posties down here weren't sure when their next strike dates were, let alone that there were wildcats in glasgow)

is so massively important, it is almost not an overstatement to say that without it you have lost already.

If anarcho-syndicalists can cover the base of thoroughly, heavily + regularly distributing a newsletter all over the country, that is great. That is not all that is necessary. But that is what they are able to bring to the fight. Playing a serious part in one of these public sector disputes (right now) means having to not be purist or sectarian, + suppressing the political gag reflex from time to time.

That's not to say progress is not being made. By even having anarcho-syndicalism as any kind of featured player, workers will first have their eyes opened to a genuine alternative which they might have only imagined before, + then will be able to judge if they like that approach/way of organisation better than the current position of things...

Mike Harman

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on August 18, 2007

Dundee, ta for the correction.

germs90

It is very easy to say 'the unions will sell us out', but why let it happen, yet again, this time? If we do then more fool us. It's no cause to be smug + say 'told you so' if public sector workers end up forced to take a paycut - it is cause for shame. Forget your ideological hang-ups about different organisations + think about what will actually work right now in the real world.

At the same time as encouraging all union members to use their vote, we have to talk in depth about the best tactics for action, before public service workers are railroaded into more token one-day all out strikes. Then look at how to apply pressure so that those tactics are on the table as serious options for mass participation. Unfortunately we do not have the luxury of much time. That may mean making use of unsavoury + 'dirty' structures... But it has to all come back to what is best for the workers as a whole (not the personal political cause) in this particular fight.

Union members are not ignorant - so many are aware that casting a vote once a year is not anything like real democracy. They know that voting alone on this pay issue is not enough, + in my experience do think in a farsighted way about possibilites + outcomes.

The way things are at the moment, the majority of the response to this is going to be union-controlled, I think most of us recognise this regardless of our view of the unions. The postal wildcats show that this is always contingent however, although the recent ones weren't against the union of course, and were quickly brought back under its control. There's also been private sector wildcats around pay and redundancies this year which again are an encouraging sign. Overall the first thing which is going to prevent "sell outs" (although calling crap deals sell outs suggests the union leadership would act any other way) is that people are as well informed as possible about things going on both in their own sector and in others, and that there's direct communication between individuals involved. royalmailchat is doing a fantastic job on this - hopefully dispatch will encourage more discussion both face to face, on rmc and on here.

germs90

If anarcho-syndicalists can cover the base of thoroughly, heavily + regularly distributing a newsletter all over the country, that is great. That is not all that is necessary. But that is what they are able to bring to the fight. Playing a serious part in one of these public sector disputes (right now) means having to not be purist or sectarian, + suppressing the political gag reflex from time to time.

That's not to say progress is not being made. By even having anarcho-syndicalism as any kind of featured player, workers will first have their eyes opened to a genuine alternative which they might have only imagined before, + then will be able to judge if they like that approach/way of organisation better than the current position of things...

Just to clarify, "dispatch" isn't anarcho-syndicalist - at least three people involved don't call themselves anarchists at all, and both the local AF and solfed groups have offered to distribute it. Hopefully it not being associated with any one group (it's not a libcom publication either, although some of us are involved) might help it develop as things progress.

germs90

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by germs90 on August 18, 2007

Mike Harman

Overall the first thing which is going to prevent "sell outs" (although calling crap deals sell outs suggests the union leadership would act any other way) is that people are as well informed as possible about things going on both in their own sector and in others, and that there's direct communication between individuals involved. royalmailchat is doing a fantastic job on this - hopefully dispatch will encourage more discussion both face to face, on rmc and on here.

This is extremely important. Hoping to address the bad problems with worker-to-worker communication across the blood service as a high priority. A non-union/rank + file staff newsletter is under construction + I have wanted to see a web forum for NBS employees for a while.

germs90

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by germs90 on August 19, 2007

Those of you working in health might find these 2 resources helpful in the next couple of weeks:

http://www.unionlists.org.uk/lists/arc/healthactivists/2007-08/msg00057/PAY_OFFER_THE_EFFECTS.pdf
A table which works out what health workers will receive if this 2.5% offer is accepted, what they need to keep up with inflation, + therefore how much of a cut will be taken from their pay.

http://nhsworker.blogspot.com/
This blog about the NHS pay dispute (recently amended after the UNISON witch-hunt began, with names of individuals + branches recommending a no vote removed to avoid victimisation) also has a link to the above info in a far more detailed spreadsheet - figures for each pay point, not just the top of each band - for download.

Mike Harman

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on August 20, 2007

germs, thanks for the nhsworker blog link.

Could be lecturers strike in Northern Ireland. There was one quite recently wasn't there?

ECTURERS in Northern Ireland have rejected a "derisory pay offer which amounts to a pay cut".
The decision of the University and College Union (UCU) was announced after a meeting of the lecturers’ negotiating committee on Tuesday.

The dispute over pay in the further education sector has been ongoing for three years.

UCU’s regional official Jim McKeown said: “Lecturers will be sickened by this derisory offer. It is a year overdue and it is the lowest offer made to any education workers in the UK in the 2006 pay round. It is below inflation for the year and in reality amounts to a pay cut.”

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news?articleid=3115006

Mike Harman

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on August 26, 2007

Edinburgh council one day strike about school closures: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6960048.stm

Steven.

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on August 28, 2007

Prison officers set to launch illegal strike:
http://libcom.org/forums/news/prison-officers-set-launch-unlawful-strike-28082007

Mike Harman

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on August 30, 2007

Heathrow Security Staff next month
Orkney ferries - rejected 3.5%
Dounreay nuclear power station - strike called off, big ballot result though
still a backlog in Watford!
few hundred at Scottish and Newcastle brewery
Liverpool museum staff

Not directly related but some kind of cabbie wildcat last weekend - four days - in Coventry:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/6957415.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/6954507.stm

Steven.

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on August 30, 2007

shit we need to get that stuff up, and the prison warders, on news, i'm well busy until the weekend though.

Marshall

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marshall on August 30, 2007

Steven., catch, et al:

how could I get involved? Am glad to offer my services as a hack to put stories up on the website

Mike Harman

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on August 30, 2007

Marshall, that'd be great.

Basically any of those stories that haven't been covered, we want to get articles in libcom.org/news for. They don't have to be massively in depth, just 2-3 paragraphs outlining what's going on - they can always be updated if new information comes in. You should be able to add one by going to "create content >> news". Also if different things tie in together - like the Heathrow Terminal 5 and security staff and Nippon Express, or the same area etc. then combining is good.

Images are good to have (there's an upload form) but we can find them if not available.

Tagging and other stuff is covered at http://libcom.org/notes/content-guidelines - let us know if you're able to do something/got any questions.

steven

19 years 2 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by steven on September 4, 2007

very very good news. i was worried cos Unison accepted a 2.45% deal for police workers, but no the rejected the local govt offer!!

Members of UNISON's national negotiating met earlier today to consider the latest revised pay offer from the local government employers of just under 2.5%. They have rejected this offer as an acceptable basis for resolving the long-running dispute over this year's pay claim and have instead voted overwhelmingly to authorise a national strike ballot for UNISON members in local authorities across England, Wales and the north of Ireland. A timetable for the official strike ballot should be announced shortly, but at present if there is a 'yes' vote industrial action could begin in early November.

Joseph Kay

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on September 7, 2007

The largest union representing local government workers has rejected an improved pay offer, increasing the potential for industrial discontent this winter.

Unions have called for a series of co-ordinated strikes affecting more than 2m health workers, local government staff, civil servants and prison officers in protest at pay-restraint policies imp­osed by Gordon Brown

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e2be66fa-5c9f-11dc-9cc9-0000779fd2ac.html

interesting that the press aimed at the bourgeoisie has no problem seeing this as a cross-sector dispute, but the more mass media has been reporting mostly separate disputes.

RPG

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by RPG on September 7, 2007

I've long thought that the FT has the best coverage of industrial relations...BTW I loved Bob Crowe's quote this week when the Standard asked him how long the Metronet dispute would go on - he said

'we will strike until we win'

liked that!

Joseph Kay

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on September 7, 2007

RPG

I've long thought that the FT has the best coverage of industrial relations...

iirc Chomsky reckons the wall street journal is the most accurate of the US bourgeois press - because if you bullshit stock brokers and CEOs it has adverse consequences.

Marshall

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marshall on September 7, 2007

RPG - you might be right with the FT - I think it is the only national left with a labour/industrial correspondent.

germs90

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by germs90 on September 8, 2007

Result of Amicus (Unite) NHS pay ballot:

http://www.unionlists.org.uk/lists/arc/healthactivists/2007-09/msg00020.html

:x :x :x

Never mind the result - what about the dismal turnout?!

Before you all start crowing 'sell-out', this is still not yet a done deal.
What is essential now is that any UNISON health members/activists/reps work to encourage as near to full participation in the last days of the ballot. I know this doesn't fit well with the aims of libcom but is what has to happen in the immediate term to safeguard our existing living standards, poor as they are, here + now.
If a majority of members have had their say + still accept a pay-cut, then you can say 'I told you so'.

Steven.

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on September 9, 2007

germs90

Result of Amicus (Unite) NHS pay ballot:

http://www.unionlists.org.uk/lists/arc/healthactivists/2007-09/msg00020.html

That link doesn't work too well, i'm assuming you mean this one:

UNITE HEALTH MEMBERS VOTE OVERWHELMINGLY TO ACCEPT 2.5% 'STAGED' PAY AWARD IN ENGLAND

But anger remains at government interference with the Pay Review Body recommendation

Members of Unite in England, the third largest union in the NHS, have voted to accept the 2.5% pay offer - despite widespread anger that the award was 'staged'.

Unite members in England voted by a margin of three-to-one to accept the staged award which works out at 1.9% over 12 months. 74.8 % voted to accept the award and 25.2% to reject. The turnout was 22.3 % of the 59,000 members in England who were balloted.

NHS colleagues in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are receiving the full award backdated to 1April, 2007 from their devolved governments.

Unite Head of Health, Kevin Coyne said that anger centered on the fact government ministers had interfered with the independence of the Pay Review Body (PRB) which had recommended the full 2.5% to be paid from 1 April.

Kevin Coyne said: 'While the result is an overwhelming acceptance of the revised offer, our members remain extremely angry at the government for failing to uphold the recommendation of the Pay Review Body. This must not be allowed to happen again.'

'If there is to be a rebuilding of trust and morale amongst NHS staff which Gordon Brown and Health Minister, Lord Darzi have promised to make a priority, then the integrity and independence of the PRB must be upheld and not tampered with.'

:x :x :x

Never mind the result - what about the dismal turnout?!

Turnout seems pretty average for a non-militant union ballot/consultation. And wouldn't this've been a consultation, not an official ballot? Consultations are done very patchily, lots of whole branches don't bother because they don't have enough activists. my workplace's consultation, we consulted more members than pretty much the rest of London put together.

Before you all start crowing 'sell-out', this is still not yet a done deal.

Hmmm, I don't know how anyone can call it a sellout if the membership voted for it.

What is essential now is that any UNISON health members/activists/reps work to encourage as near to full participation in the last days of the ballot. I know this doesn't fit well with the aims of libcom but is what has to happen in the immediate term to safeguard our existing living standards, poor as they are, here + now.
If a majority of members have had their say + still accept a pay-cut, then you can say 'I told you so'.

i don't think there's anything that doesn't fit with the aims of libcom in trying to get people to vote no. With those things, the bigger the turnout and No vote, the better the chance of getting a better offer.

germs90

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by germs90 on September 9, 2007

Thanks for posting the text up Steven., I couldn't find the press release on a page to link to last night.

Steven.

Turnout seems pretty average for a non-militant union ballot/consultation.

Maybe so, but that is not acceptable on an issue as important as this! It doesn't have to be this low just because it usually has been in the past.

Steven.

Before you all start crowing 'sell-out', this is still not yet a done deal.

Hmmm, I don't know how anyone can call it a sellout if the membership voted for it.

Neither do I, but I have read posters on here say that the unions will 'stitch up' the members in the various public sector pay disputes, when the final outcome is decided by how the membership votes.

Steven.

i don't think there's anything that doesn't fit with the aims of libcom in trying to get people to vote no. With those things, the bigger the turnout and No vote, the better the chance of getting a better offer.

I don't want to tar all posters with the same brush of course, but there seems to be a widely held (+ understandable) view that nothing can or should be acheived to improve workers' lives through mainstream/TUC trade union activity. I disagree with this in the immediate term in relation to struggles over pay offers. In this current case I would argue that organising through trade unions is the most effective option by miles. Constantly slagging off whole unions (as opposed to the very distinct leaders) as if they are homogenous blobs, does not make workers want to participate in, or even be part of the rank + file membership of any type of union in future, in my opinion.

Amicus activists think a bad database + therefore members not even receiving voting forms is part of the reason for the low turnout. UNISON members who have not got a form yet need to ring:

0845 355 0845

or visit:

http://www.unison.org.uk/help/ballot2007.asp

Ballot closes Sept 13th. Joining before Sept 10th entitles you to vote so new members should chase up if they haven't had a voting paper.
Please can health workers circulate the number + link widely as obviously we can't rely on active branch committees doing a thorough job.

Steven.

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on September 9, 2007

germs90

Thanks for posting the text up Steven., I couldn't find the press release on a page to link to last night.

Steven.

Turnout seems pretty average for a non-militant union ballot/consultation.

Maybe so, but that is not acceptable on an issue as important as this! It doesn't have to be this low just because it usually has been in the past.

Steven.

Before you all start crowing 'sell-out', this is still not yet a done deal.

Hmmm, I don't know how anyone can call it a sellout if the membership voted for it.

Neither do I, but I have read posters on here say that the unions will 'stitch up' the members in the various public sector pay disputes, when the final outcome is decided by how the membership votes.

I gotta go out - but on this quickly, it's not entirely true. For example, this Unison health deal, the union are stitching it up, not only are Unison refusing to recommend a "no" vote to the appalling offer, they're not letting branches recommend "no" votes either, and are witchhunting branches and activists who are saying "no". This aside from the fact that not only are Unison keeping Unison workers separate from others in the entire public sector dispute, but they're also separating Unison members from each other in different industries like health, education and local govt - a ridiculous situation.

Mike Harman

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on September 9, 2007

Steven.

I gotta go out - but on this quickly, it's not entirely true. For example, this Unison health deal, the union are stitching it up, not only are Unison refusing to recommend a "no" vote to the appalling offer, they're not letting branches recommend "no" votes either, and are witchhunting branches and activists who are saying "no". This aside from the fact that not only are Unison keeping Unison workers separate from others in the entire public sector dispute, but they're also separating Unison members from each other in different industries like health, education and local govt - a ridiculous situation.

Yeah and then we have the CWU putting their members in the, er, unusual situation of being told to cross each other's picket lines, then 3.5 weeks of no strikes just after a massive backlog had been built up, and now no deal after almost a month of secret talks that no-one knows anything about the contents of. Four years ago the leadership pushed through a deal, with a very sloppy ballot (lots of forms lost etc.), and they got ousted along with massive wildcats. No sign of that just yet here though.

This doesn't mean that workers shouldn't go out on strikes called by the unions, or that communists should abstain from giving any opinion on whether people should go out on strike just because the union is calling a ballot. It means arguing for the maximum possible action to be taken, whilst making it very clear that the union's primary focus is maintaining it's place at the negotiating table more than the interests of the members. Effective action is always going to be outside the union framework in most cases, because really effective action threatens their ability to control disputes and deliver a deal, to both sides.

I think the term "sell out" is a misnomer. It's the trade unions' role within capital to negotiate for heir members as wage earners, and to maintain a position within the management structure that allows them to negotiate such deals - a position which is contingent on maintaining 'discipline' in return for a say in how things are implemented. When people talk about a 'sell out' it suggests that they expect the leadership and the union apparatus as a whole to act differently - contrary to their interests.

As such the unions shouldn't be seen as some kind of conspiracy - they just have to be recognised for what they are, so there's not the constant cycle of building hopes up for a successful all out fight within the boundaries set by disputes, then the calls of 'sell out' and demoralisation which follows when this doesn't happen. That focuses attention on a crisis of leadership rather than a crisis of the conflicting interests between workers and their union - which is a distinct institution with it's own particular needs. The 'sell out' cry usually leads to leadership challenges, calls for 'working class representation' (Trot parties), splinter-unions, doesn't deal with the systemic issues which cause them - i.e the actual relation of labour power to capital and the union's role in managing this relationship

An urgent message from Billy Hayes , General Secretary and Dave Ward , Deputy General Secretary (Postal)

Dear Colleague,

Talks have concluded this evening (Sunday 9th September) without an agreement being reached.

Royal Mail has stated that the period of calm is over and they will now prepare to run the business and move change forward.

We have told Royal Mail we are prepared to continue the talks and extend the period of calm.

Given the seriousness of the situation the Postal Executive will meet tomorrow (Monday 10th September) to receive a full report and consider the next steps.

A further and more detailed communication will follow.

Joseph Kay

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on September 13, 2007

Former prime minister Baroness Thatcher has left 10 Downing Street after a meeting with Gordon Brown... The visit followed an exchange of letters between Mr Brown and Lady Thatcher, who led the country from 1979 to 1990, shortly after he became prime minister in June.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6993269.stm

call me cynical but with Brown on a mission to break the last of the organised working class, the TUC murmering about a winter of discontent and Royal Mail bosses comparing the current dispute to the miners' strike, i wonder what they could possibly have been talking about.

Steven.

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on September 17, 2007

Unison health workers accept deal, following the union blocking branches recommending rejection:

Health workers back pay deal
(13/09/07) UNISON members in the NHS have voted 2 to 1 in favour of the revised pay offer secured by union negotiators in August.

The deal will put extra cash in the pockets of the lowest paid workers in the NHS. In addition, non-clinical staff will have their training budgets boosted, and clinicians will get money to put towards their training fees - though only in England, where the award is being staged.

Karen Jennings, UNISON head of health, said it was a pragmatic vote.

"I believe that workers in the health service deserve better - however UNISON said the revised offer was the best that could be achieved through negotiation, and the result shows that members recognised that fact."

Members had been told that should they reject the deal, they should also be prepared to support industrial action.

However, the union will be seeking more money next year to make up for accepting this year's below-inflation award.

"We will be making a strong case for a catch-up award," Ms Jennings said. "I don't believe health workers will accept a below-inflation pay increase for two years running."

In the meantime, the union is determined to improve terms and conditions for NHS staff by making progress over issues such as a reduced working week and better training. Talks are due to begin soon.

UNISON represents 450,000 members in the NHS including nurses, paramedics, healthcare assistants, cleaners, cooks, porters, administrative staff and therapists. 68.8% voted for and 31.2% against the offer.

Joseph Kay

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on September 17, 2007

a guy i do kung fu with who works in the NHS said the 'explanatory note' provided by unison was so complicated no-one could figure out what the deal meant, whether it was staggered etc. so coupled with the witch-hunting of antis it's not surprising people went with the 'recommendation' - not sure what the turnout/response was?

Steven.

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on September 17, 2007

Joseph K.

a guy i do kung fu with who works in the NHS said the 'explanatory note' provided by unison was so complicated no-one could figure out what the deal meant, whether it was staggered etc. so coupled with the witch-hunting of antis it's not surprising people went with the 'recommendation'

exactly

- not sure what the turnout/response was?

My guess would be very low.

germs90

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by germs90 on September 19, 2007

Turn out for the UNISON health service group pay offer ballot was around 20%.

There are clearly huge problems to address with the membership database. Some of these errors will be down to slackness on the union's part - others from members moving + not remembering to update their records (which the union should make more of an effort to remind people of - regularly).

An anecdote from my section - one blood service UNISON rep phoned regional office to see why 100 or so branch members had not received voting papers + was told they were listed wrongly as employees of the 'National Blood Authority' (defunct for about 10 years - now part of 'NHS Blood + Transplant') + therefore not entitled to vote!! This surely could have been repeated across all NBS branches, potentially running into 1000+ healthworkers denied a say.
Pissed off, powerless, + poorer!

What if consultations had to report a turnout of over 50% to be binding? Or, even better, if no vote counted as a 'No' vote (as technically, the member has not accepted the offer)... Then you would see officials with an agenda sweating their arses off to get full participation...

Dundee_United

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Dundee_United on September 20, 2007

I presume folks have seen this...

"19/09/07) UNISON is to ask its 850,000 local
government members whether they're prepared to take
action over this year's low pay offer.

The ballot was given the go ahead by the union's
industrial action committee at a meeting today. Papers
will be sent out in October.

Earlier this month local government representatives
rejected the employers' revised offer of 2.475% and a
new minimum rate on scale point 4 of £8 an hour.

The deal is below inflation, despite being a slight
improvement on the original offer. The Retail Price
Index figures were recorded at 4.1% in August.

UNISON’s head of local government, Heather Wakefield,
said: "I don't want to see local government pay
falling further behind the rest of the public sector
and private sector. Our members' morale is low. We
urge employers to help resolve this situation by
returning to talks."

Council workers covered by the pay claim include care
home and home care assistants, housing and
environmental health officers, refuse collectors,
librarians and school cooks. Almost two thirds of
them, 75% of whom are women, earn £15,825 or under a
year -- £8,000 less than the national average."

http://www.unison.org.uk/news/news_view.asp?did=3682

In Edinburgh local government workers (organised through Unison) have played a role in the ongoing campaign against council cuts, schools and nursery closures and redundancies...

http://www.edinburghunison.blip.tv/

Also check out: http://stopthecuts.blogspot.com/

There are some positive initiatives coming out of that campaign... Much, much more vibrant than the campaign against school closures in Glasgow last year.

Mike Harman

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on October 3, 2007

Talks between Nipsa and the Education and Library Boards broke down last night with thousands of classroom assistants refusing to return to work until their demands are met.

At the end of the first day of a three day strike, relationships between the unions and management appeared at an all time low and all out strike action appeared likely.

Up to 3,000 members of public service union Nipsa staged the first day of a three day walk out yesterday in a dispute over pay and terms and conditions.

Special schools across the province forced to close while pupils at mainstream schools with special needs were also forced to remain at home. The situation is expected to deteriorate as strike action continues.

If no agreement can be achieved, the classroom assistants will only return to work on Friday before beginning all out action on Monday.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/article3021938.ece

Anyone in Belfast know more about this? Sounds pretty full on.

also, nasty: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7017298.stm

Mike Harman

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on October 3, 2007

Norwich hospital cleaners:

Dozens of cleaners, porters, and catering staff at the Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital are voting this week on whether to take strike action as a dispute over pay threatened to boil over.

If given the go-ahead, the move would affect 44 workers, who are members of the union Unite, who are employed by the private contractor Serco.

Angry staff claim they are missing out on the same pay and benefits that there NHS employed counterparts receive.

Mike Harman

19 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on October 3, 2007

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6993366.stm

Tower Hamlets council gardeners after 3.5% offer.

Mike Harman

19 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on October 8, 2007

Very odd Guardian article by ex-swappie Gregor Gall: http://politics.guardian.co.uk/unions/story/0,,2182949,00.html

The relationship of the unions to Labour is at least mentioned as contributing to the lack of strike action - haven't seen that much in the press, but otherwise the usual Trot fare, just unusual to see it in this context.

steven

19 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by steven on October 9, 2007

Dundee_United

I presume folks have seen this...

"19/09/07) UNISON is to ask its 850,000 local
government members whether they're prepared to take
action over this year's low pay offer.

The ballot was given the go ahead by the union's
industrial action committee at a meeting today. Papers
will be sent out in October.

This ballot ends Oct 26, and is for action beginning with a 2-day all-out strike 14-15 November. A Yes vote is expected, although the union's vote yes prop is shite, giving the employers arguments on the front page and workers' ones on the back.

Some teachers were trying to bring forwards their ballot for their action to coincide, the PCS says they'll try to have action then or very soon around then. Some posties will probably be out on those days too.

Mike Harman

19 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on October 16, 2007

NI classroom assistants back at work, no deal: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7044503.stm

Mike Harman

19 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on October 18, 2007

Looks like BBC strikes will be on pretty quick:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2193379,00.html
http://media.guardian.co.uk/bbc/story/0,,2193436,00.html

Medical secretaries balloting on strike as NHS trust derecognises the GMB: http://www.gmb.org.uk/Templates/PressItems.asp?NodeID=96157

No strike at Nuclear plant http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7048546.stm would be good to have details of what the deal was.

Steven.

19 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on October 30, 2007

Unison local govt strike ballot was narrowly for yes, but the union decided not to call a strike. People at my work are going to be pissed... i'm pretty furious. the union's pro-yes prop was awful - it gave the bosses arguments on the front page of leaflet, and workers ones small on the back. this definitely helped the big no vote. fucking unions :(

* FOR strike action 74,631 (51.6%)
* AGAINST strike action 70,088 (48.4%)

* Turnout 24.4% of members eligible to vote.

UNISON's national negotiating body, the NJC Committee, met yesterday and considered this outcome. Whilst welcoming the majority vote for strike action, the Committee decided that in all the circumstances, including the narrowness of the majority and the size of the return, this result does not constitute the basis for viable industrial action to break the Government's pay policy.

UNISON will therefore now settle the 2007 Pay Claim on the basis of the employers' revised offer made on 24 August. As you will recall, this provides for an increase of 2.475% at all points, apart from the lowest pay point (scp4) where the national basic rate will rise by 3.4% to produce an hourly rate of £6.00. These increases are backdated to 1 April 2007. London Weighitng will be increased by the same percentage at each pay point.

The Committee agreed further action to continue into next year the fight against the Government's pay policy and the prospect of employers' attacks on our national pay and conditions agreements, in coordination with other services within UNISON and other public service trade unions. Further information is on UNISON's national website.

Mike Harman

19 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on October 31, 2007

PCS members have overwhelmingly voted in favour of the union's proposals for national industrial action aimed at resolving the ongoing national dispute in the civil service and related bodies over job cuts, below inflation pay and privatisation.

68% of members voting in the national consultative ballot voted for national strike action as part of the union's campaign, which has already seentwo strongly supported national one day strikes this year. The result is a clear demonstration of PCS members resolve to reach a fair settlement with senior civil service management and the government over jobs, pay and conditions.

The union's National Executive Committee will meet tomorrow, 1st November, to consider the ballot result and to receive a report on the discussions currently taking place with Cabinet Office officials.

Commenting, Mark Serwotka, PCS general secretary, said: "The union's NEC will be meeting tomorrow to consider the result in the context of discussions with the Cabinet Office. Civil service management and the government must be in no doubt of the determination of their own workforce to take action if necessary, to achieve a fair settlement over jobs, pay and conditions and must now find added urgency in reaching an agreement with the union."

http://www.pcs.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=914787

Mike Harman

19 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on October 31, 2007

More NIPSA school assistants strikes in NI:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/article3112892.ece

Airports might go out over pensions:

Unite, formed by the merger of Amicus and the Transport & General Workers' Union, confirmed yesterday that shop stewards representing about 6,000 staff at BAA's British airports, had formally asked for a ballot on industrial action, up to and including strikes. BAA owns seven UK airports: Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Southampton.

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2202041,00.html

Sidney Huffman

19 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sidney Huffman on November 2, 2007

Unison want shooting with shit for the totally embarrassing end to this dispute. At my workplace in Local govt. we have union members of 20-odd years standing leaving unison because of this and who can blame them? Anyone for self-organisation?

Spikymike

18 years 12 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on November 6, 2007

Well indeed - the strategy of UNISON was probably on a loser despite the radical sounding language - but none of us can hold our heads up, insofar as we are yet unable to significantly influence our fellow workers in a more radical direction. More effort I suppose with the likes of Dispatch and similar bulletins.

Steven.

18 years 12 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on November 7, 2007

Prentis was overheard saying at TUC conference there would be a strike "over his dead body"...

Joseph Kay

18 years 12 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on November 7, 2007

that could suit all concerned

Dundee_United

18 years 12 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Dundee_United on November 7, 2007

Prentis was overheard saying at TUC conference there would be a strike "over his dead body"...

That sounds like a really good sticker idea. :D

Steven.

18 years 11 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on December 10, 2007

civil servants 2 day strike:
http://libcom.org/news/uk-public-service-strike-enters-second-day-07122007

then ongoing overtime ban from today

not that they should be supported, but for interest police also threatening strikes:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=500681&in_page_id=1770

ftony

18 years 11 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by ftony on December 10, 2007

so we wait for the police to strike then take over this joint yeah? :bb:

Mike Harman

18 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on June 23, 2008

Unison local government ballot result is due today. Going to be lots of 'summer of discontent' articles all day I reckon, here's one from yesterday:

Mail on Sunday:

Tomorrow sees the result of a strike ballot of more than 800,000 local government workers in England, Wales and Northern Ireland who have been urged by their union Unison to reject a 2.45% pay offer.

That offer is already above the Government's target of 2% but it has still failed to appease unions.

The ballot results could prove a shot across the bows ahead of pay talks between the Government and six unions due to resume on Wednesday.

The unions represent 250,000 staff at further education colleges in England who have rejected a 3% pay offer and are demanding 6%.

Meanwhile, the Public and Commercial Services Union (PCS) is finalising plans for a strike ballot of 280,000 members in the civil service in pursuit of various pay claims, all of them above the Government's 2% norm.

Mike Harman

18 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mike Harman on June 23, 2008

http://unison.org.uk/news/news_view.asp?did=4461

Local government members vote for action

(23/06/08) UNISON members in local government in England, Wales and Northern Ireland have voted by 55% to 45% for a programme of sustained strike action over a 2.45% pay offer.

The union’s negotiating team, the National Joint Council committee, will now meet tomorrow to decide what action to recommend to the national strike committee that meets on Friday 27 June.

Commenting on the ballot result, general secretary Dave Prentis said: "This is a solid vote for action and a clear message to the local government employers that our members are willing to fight for a decent pay rise.

"They are fed up and angry that they are expected to accept pay cut after pay cut, while bread and butter prices go through the roof.

"Most of them are low paid workers, who are hit hardest by food and fuel price hikes and they see the unfairness of boardroom bonanzas and big city bonuses

"Other local government workers who have to use their cars for work are being hit hard too by spiralling fuel costs and they end up subsidising their employers."

UNISON head of local government Heather Wakefield added: "The employers should be in no doubt: the members have voted for a programme of sustained and escalating strike action because they are sick of being treated as the poor relations of the public sector.

"Their case for a realistic pay increase is indisputable. We are, of course, willing to meet with the employers at any time, but we will decide tomorrow what recommendations to make to our national strike committee."

Nearly 600,000 UNISON members were balloted on industrial action; including social workers, housing benefit workers, rent collectors refuse workers, school meals staff, teaching assistants, cooks, cleaners, architects and surveyors.

Almost 250,000 of those balloted earn less than £6.50 an hour and 75% of them are women.

The joint unions' pay claim was for 6% or 50p an hour whichever was the greater.

Steven.

18 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2008

thread for this year here:
http://libcom.org/forums/organise/public-sector-pay-disputes-2008-23052008

ricardoexterp

17 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by ricardoexterp on February 7, 2009

"UK public sector pay dispute"

Heh - there have always been quite a dispute between some things that just need to be solved and because of that everything needs to be settled up by managing some issues that are done in a way or another only by us humans who have to take decisions. I work as a pigeon control guy for example but that doesn't stop me for caring about how nurses, local gov, civil service or post office works in this Kingdom.

-Richard