"The problems with PMC Theory" - Sam Badger (2025)

Alex Katz, The Cocktail Party, 1965

PMC theory was proposed as an explanation for divisions between the New Left and the working class, but is rooted on problematic foundations

Author
Submitted by blackrabbits123 on October 9, 2025

In 1976, Marxist sociologists Barbara and John Ehrenreich published two essays on what they called the “Professional-Managerial Class”, or the PMC. This class, they argued, is distinct from the classic Marxist categories of bourgeoisie and proletariat, as well as the old petit bourgeoisie of small businessmen usually associated with the middle class. This PMC is the new middle class, and though it shares many properties with the working class (like selling their labor for a living), it has distinct class interests as well as a sense of entitlement and elitism thanks to their education. The Ehrenreichs blame the conflicting worldviews and goals between the PMC and the working class for the failure of socialism to advance in the United States, the dominance of “progressive” politics over class politics, and the general state of degeneracy of the American political left. Today, many on the left (and some on the right) make use of the Ehrenreich’s category to blame the PMC for identity politics, “wokeness”, and other targets for criticism.

The Ehrenreich’s argument has a lot of strengths, as it does identify real political divergences and conflicts within the American left. This explanatory power has given the theory legs, hence its widespread influence in political discourse to this day. Yet the PMC is not a distinct class, but an agglomeration of skilled mental workers, managers, administrators, and the professional petit bourgeoisie. What the Ehrenreichs identify as a class is rather a cross-class cultural milieu, and the political issues they blame on the PMC is rather a conflict largely (but not entirely) within the working class. These internal class conflicts are not uncommon historically, and emerge from real divergences of interests.

The Category

The category of “PMC”, as the Ehrenreichs describe it, captures the educated professional elite of our society:

The PMC thus includes such groups as scientists, engineers, teachers, social workers, writers, accountants, lower- and middle-level managers and administrators, etc. — in all some twenty to twenty-five per cent of the U.S. population.

Most of these people sell their labor to make a living, which is the distinguishing feature of Marx’s proletariat. Though the chapter of Marx’s 3rd volume of Capital dealing with class was never finished, it’s pretty clear for anyone who has delved into his writings that the proletarian is the one who sells their labor to others who manage and profit from it.

Yet there is another important distinction in Marx’s work between productive and unproductive labor. Notably, this distinction was not invented by Marx himself (neither was the term proletariat or bourgeoisie, for that matter), but inherited from thinkers like Adam Smith. Productive labor in an economic sense is any labor which produces commodities for sale. Thus, to be productive isn’t simply about making something nice. Cooking food for the homeless and giving it out for free is “productive” in the sense that it makes something, but unproductive in an economic sense since it doesn’t make commodities. Is a teacher productive? If they teach in a private school, yes, because they produce the commodity of education. If they teach in a public school, no, because the services they offer are not commodities. Yet Marx, ever the dialectician, has to go complicate this distinction. Even if a teacher doesn’t directly contribute to the creation of commodities, they are a necessary step in the production process because they teach students how to be more productive and resourceful adults. Thus, from the point of view of an individual business, teachers don’t look productive, but from the point of view of society as a whole, the teacher is very much a part of the great proletarian machine of society.

The Ehrenreichs argue that the PMC doesn’t do productive labor but rather reproductive labor, which means, they serve the goals of social reproduction. They don’t produce commodities, but rather reproduce the whole ideological order:

… the relationship between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat has developed to the point that a class specializing in the reproduction of capitalist class relationships becomes a necessity to the capitalist class. That is, the maintenance of order can no longer be left to episodic police violence.

In their view, the PMC works in education, management, bureaucracy, engineering, and the production of culture because these roles are necessary to sustaining our social order. Its existence and expansion as a class is sustained largely by the state, which taxes the social surplus to hire these workers, but also by private institutions involved in these tasks.

Right off the bat, there’s a problematic hole in the theory. The PMC includes cultural workers, who do produce commodities. Movie studios hire college-educated individuals to write or edit screenplays which go on to become movies, and these movies in turn are then “sold” in the form of theater tickets, downloads, and so on. Thus, the “PMC” in this case is productive since they’re a necessary part of the creation of commodities. Moreover, every movie studio needs to hire a bunch of other people as well to make these movies. Many of these other folks are unambiguously “working class” like the janitors who clean the studios or the carpenters who build the sets. All of these people are involved in the production process of the movie, and all of them see their labor exploited by the studios in the process of movie production (hence the profits on these films).

The example of movie studios undermines the claim that productive and reproductive labor can be clearly distinguished. For many Marxists like the Ehrenreichs, the “culture industry” engages in reproduction, not production, because the narratives, implicit values, and ideas of our social order are reinforced among those entertained. Movies reaffirm the ideological commitments, values, and practices of our society. Films like Birth of a Nation, Battleship Potempkin, Triumph of the Will, and Mr Smith Goes to Washington all served the function of normalizing certain forms of subjectivity. Thus, they do serve a role in ideological reproduction. However, they’re still creating commodities and hence are productive. So long as the movie is something I must buy the right to enjoy, I’ve consumed a cultural commodity as much as the person who eats a loaf of bread. In reality, there is no firm distinction between productive and reproductive labor, and it may well be the case that most labor in some ways does both. The bread produced by the baker is as much a necessary act of reproductive labor which keeps the workers fed as it is an act of productive labor which creates loaves. It is true that a much greater portion of reproductive labor is free for the consumer instead of commodified, but this is hardly true of all reproductive labor.

Rather than distinguishing the PMC as a distinct class, I would understand it as an agglomeration of at least two groups.

First, there is a managerial and administrative elite whose task is to oversee and supervise workers and production purposes, and to track whether relative metrics are being met.

Second, there is a great mass of people who are professionals such as nurses, clerks, accountants, journalists, doctors, teachers, professors, lawyers, writers, and others who are specialists. These professionals once largely worked either as employees in specialist firms, or as petty businessmen (petit bourgeoisie). Think of the doctor with the private practice, or the teacher at a small elite private school. Some worked in larger non-profit institutions like the state or large universities.

Importantly, these professionals could exist as one of several different classes. As Vivek Chibber points out, lawyers don’t fit a clear class category due to their profession:

With that in mind, let’s look at professionals. The same professional can be in different classes. A lawyer could be somebody who works in a legal agency, in a legal office, literally for a pittance. He could also be somebody who’s a partner and therefore employs other lawyers. And he could also be somebody who puts out a shingle and does his own legal business. So deciding what class he’s in, simply on the basis of his being a professional, is actually very tricky on Marxian grounds. So that being the case, it’s very, very hard to say that a professional is going to be part of the capitalist exploitation process, not just because most professionals are actually several arm’s lengths away from that, but also because professionals can actually belong to any class.

As Chibber argues in his interview, one important flaw with the PMC as a category is that it’s actually a cross-class category. It includes workers who do a job underneath people who own a business and also professionals who do their job as independent businessmen. One of Marx’s insights was to define class as one’s relationship to the means of production, not one’s income, and to treat income as a mere symptom of this more fundamental relationship. When we understand class in this way, we can see how different it is to be a professional who works independently and one who works under a corporation.

For the most part, these skilled professionals were able to get better wages than the rest of society because so few knew how to do the kind of work they could do. Moreover, by the 1900s an increasing share of these jobs began to require credentials - while it was possible in the 1800s for anyone with a bone saw and a passing knowledge of anatomy could call themselves a “doctor”, by the 1950s there was a complex, formalized system of credentials and licenses. The role of credentials is an important part of the PMC category as outlined by the Ehrenreichs.

Yet isolating credentialing as a central factor doesn’t tell as much as the Ehrenreichs might have thought. There are many credentialed professional workers who engage in various types of manual labor, from hair stylists and barbers to welders to masseuses to yoga instructors. Even taxi drivers and truckers need licenses. None of these groups engage in the management or reproduction of capitalism, rather they produce commodities (or at least commodified services like a yoga class).

The Fate of the Category

An important part of their argument is that the power of the PMC has grown with its demographic growth. Society needed more universities to train more PMC. As more universities have come into being, the power of the PMC has only grown, further driving the growth of more universities in a positive feedback loop:

The rebirth of PMC radicalism in the sixties came at a time when the material position of the class was advancing rapidly. Employment in PMC occupations soared, and salaries rose with them. The growth was so rapid that extensive recruitment from the working class became necessary to fill the job openings. (One early 1960s study indicated that no less than a quarter of the sons of skilled blue-collar workers and close to a fifth of the sons of semi-skilled workers were climbing into the PMC.) (1) It has become fashionable to argue that engineers, teachers, social workers and the like were becoming “proletarianized” — the fate Marx had predicted for the middle class. (2) But what was taken as a symptom of proletarianization, e.g., the expansion and bureaucratization of the university, was in many cases really a token of the rapid expansion of the class. The late fifties and early sixties were a golden age for the PMC, not a time of decreasing opportunities and compression into the proletarian mold.

Yet the reality since they first proposed the PMC category has been quite different. As university education expanded, the value which a university education brought went down. More and more people were getting college educations, not only within the United States but other nations across the developed world. This was done because college educated workers received higher incomes, and a more educated workforce therefore would equate to a more affluent population. However, if we consider the other side of the coin, the logic starts to break down. The college educated workers were better paid because there were fewer of them, giving them more bargaining power and making the competition for their jobs far more labor-friendly. Capitalist firms were fine with paying higher taxes to fund more college education because it increased this supply of qualified workers. This is a logical market response; as the supply of these workers increases without a commensurate increase in demand, their market value goes down. This makes sense if we consider the supply of Americans will college degrees:

To some extent, the Ehrenreich’s theory was premised on the continued growth of demand for those they called PMC. This was a trend that had remained pretty steady, as they noted, since the industrial era of the 1800s. As a more technologically sophisticated and productive (therefore affluent) society, the modern economy requires increasing numbers of educated workers to function. Yet like so many economic trends, this couldn’t continue indefinitely.

The bloated labor market for educated professionals came about with the reduction in wages and benefits. This can be seen in the university system where the Ehrenreichs worked. As the number of qualified PhDs went up faster than the number of professors they required, universities and colleges were increasingly able to reduce the number of well-paid, full-time tenure faculty in exchange for underpaid adjuncts who often have to work at multiple schools to make ends meet, and are never given enough classes to qualify as full-time. This has led to an inexorable proletarianization of academic labor, as even those lucky enough to find full-time faculty jobs now face competition from the adjuncts.

Moreover, as the supply of these professional workers increased, the threat that underpaid professionals could go on to start a private practice went away. While some professionals like university professors never had the option of starting a private practice (nobody is going to pay for stand-alone philosophy courses that don’t lead to them getting real credentials), people like doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants, and others had the option of striking it alone if they’re underpaid. The option to become petit bourgeois gave professionals bargaining power. Yet this option is simply not a realistic one for most.

Barbara Ehrenreich acknowledged these trends in a later interview with Dissent Magazine, noting how the only group of PMC who retained their privileged status in the economy were upper management and administrative staff:

Press: In your 2013 reflection on the PMC, you write, “The center has not held. Conceived as ‘the middle class’ and as the supposed repository of civic virtue and occupational dedication, the PMC lies in ruins.” You add that “the PMC’s original dream—of a society ruled by reason and led by public-spirited professionals—has been discredited.” What happened to the PMC?

Ehrenreich: I do think it’s been seriously smashed. In that article we wrote for the Rosa Luxemburg Stiftung, John and I talk about professions as basic and seemingly eternal as law, for example. That’s been undermined: law schools fake the number of their graduates who end up with jobs that are even related to the law. You of course know what’s happened to journalists; we don’t get paid. College teaching [has been] totally undermined by essentially minimum-wage adjuncts. So I would say that what happened to the blue-collar working class with deindustrialization is now happening with the PMC—except for the top managerial end of it, which continues to do very well and perhaps amounts to about 20 percent of the population.

This suggests the aforementioned bifurcation in the class category they proposed. Where professionals are increasingly dragged into the working class, administrators and managers take up a different role in the economy as direct mediators between the ruling class (the state and capitalists) and the workers. The responsibility of the administrator centers on metrics and implementing policies to meet those metrics. For instance, a university administrator pursues the metric of reducing student dropout rates because the state government has decided to prioritize that goal. They do so because their university is competing with other universities for state funds and rankings, as well as more enrollment. Administrators are necessary because, as corporations, private enterprises, and state governments continue to expand, owners and the state are increasingly removed from the day-to-day affairs on the ground. Since it’s impossible to monitor each individual worker or consumer at a large scale, stakeholders require generalized metrics to determine how successful and efficient their enterprise is. Thus, the administrator exists to maximize the efficiency of the workplace, and they get a cut of the gains from increased efficiency. Yet they also benefit from a conflict of interest, since to some extent the administrators who determine and monitor the metrics of the first place, and therefore their own success. Thus, administrators and upper-level management necessarily have social and economic leverage that distinguishes them from the professionals and other workers who are subject to these metrics.

Skilled and “Unskilled”

As I argued in a recent blog post, the category of unskilled labor has more to do with convention, and most if not all labor requires at least some bare minimum for skill. Yet what this convention does capture is that most people have certain skills. A professional driver in 1910 was a skilled worker, but a rideshare driver today isn’t, because most people know how to drive.

What the Ehrenreichs identify as a class distinction is rather a skill distinction. Mental labor requires certain skills which require sufficient levels of education in the relevant field. Accountants must be great at math, and philosophy professors must be able to reproduce Kant’s categorical imperative in a lecture. These skills generally come through a university education today, though this wasn’t always the case. As we’ve seen, this meant more bargaining power for professionals in a time when education was less common, but decreasing bargaining power as the rates of university education go up.

We see this today with coders. Between the Clinton and Obama years, there was this presupposition among political elites (as well as the wider public) that we needed more coders. The boom industry was tech, and there simply weren’t enough Americans able to string together lines of python or html. Workers hit with deindustrialization here told to learn to code, as this would simultaneously get work for the unemployed and also find more workers for the growing tech industry. Yet by the 2010s, there were plenty of coders and it became a decreasingly lucrative option for workers.

This is very similar to process which we saw among artisan workers during the 1700s and 1800s in England, as highly skilled forms of labor were replaced by machines. Where a highly skilled tailor was required to make a coat in 1750, by 1850 a series of machines manned by low-skilled workers could make the same coat in a fraction of the time. This de-skilling of labor through the machine (and its subsequent impact on workers’ bargaining power) was a central grievance behind the Luddite movement of the early 1800s in England.

Yet we also see the reverse process, as “blue collar” skilled labor like welding or electrical engineering go up in value because there aren’t enough people with these skills to fill all the job openings. Today, many are telling college students to drop out and get some technical degree in some form of skilled manual labor. In other words, the privilege that the Ehrenreichs identified in professionals to leverage their knowledge and credentials for better wages is a property of skilled labor in general, not mental labor in specific.

The PMC and cultural conflict

What is true is that there’s a deep cultural divide between mental and manual laborers. Those who go to university imbibe various values and ideas from their new setting, from the postcolonial intersectional feminist analysis taught in their anthropology class to the open-mindedness and appreciation of cultural diversity one habituates from simply living among students from across the globe. Professionals who imbibed these values often end up irritated by the real or perceived ignorance of those with less education. This creates political conflict that can destroy any chance for solidarity between these groups.

For instance, debates around “wokeness” and anti-racism in the workplace produced this kind of backlash during the 2010s. College-educated students imbibed certain ideas in their classes, like racial privilege, intersectionality, and identity politics. They often translated these academic theories into a kind of moralistic dogma, and many ended up using that dogma to stand in moral judgement of more socially conservative rural white workers. I think far too much is made of this culture war and its effects, much of it was as much an outcome of social media algorithms as real-world struggles.

In this presentation of events, it was the PMC who were clearly in the wrong for being shrill and judgmental. This definitely seems to be the implication of what the Ehrenreichs wrote of the struggles in their own time, and the heavy-handed elitism of the PMC. These professionals (and students trying to become professionals) looked down their noses at the uneducated proletarians. This is certainly all too true in many instances, yet the story on the ground was actually more complicated. For instance, during the Vietnam, the “hard hat riots” occurred where conservative white construction workers were pitted against anti-Vietnam protesters. Many of the Vietnam war protesters were students training for professional jobs, and the patriotic and pro-war sentiments of the workers were used to split them off from the anti-war protests. Pro-war populists tried to use this tension against the anti-war mayor of New York. How are we to interpret the hostility many American proletarians felt towards the anti-war protesters? Is it to think that the workers are in the right and the anti-war protesters are in the wrong?

What the hard hat riot reminds us is that it’s about much more than just snobby intellectual elites looking down on salt-of-the-earth proles. That doesn’t mean it’s about wise scholars observing the ignorance of the uneducated masses, either. Rather, there are numerous smaller conflicts between groups of workers based on cultural grievances, the meddling of self-interested political leaders, and proximate, local interests not general class interests. We see conflicts between: citizen and non-citizen workers; rural and urban workers; Anglophone and Hispanophone workers; black workers and white workers; extractive workers (miners, etc) and indigenous peoples; agricultural and industrial workers; and so on. In most of these conflicts, we cannot assign “the working class interest” to one side or the other. Rather, both sides are fighting for more narrow, local grievances like their own jobs or living standards. Sometimes the conflict just comes down to mutual ignorance and cultural stereotypes, like so much resentment between rural and urban workers.

This is one place where “intersectional” analysis can actually be quite useful in helping us to see the other cultural and political forces at play in dividing workers amongst themselves. The only way for these various conflicting groups to find any kind of liberation is to unite in solidarity. Environmentalists and coal miners can only defeat the fossil fuel industrialists by working together, and this requires a combination of dialogue, solidarity, and imagination to conceive of a project that meets the needs of both communities. Otherwise, the industrialists will just be able to pit these two groups against each other, such that neither group can achieve its goals and we still have tons of carbon emissions and lots of exploited mine workers.

The Ehrenreichs seem to want this kind of dialogue, solidarity, and imagination themselves. They decried the inability of the workers and the PMC to work together, attributing the failure of the New Left of the 60s and 70s to this failure. Later, Barbara Ehrenreich would go on to decry how “PMC” had become a kind of slur in leftwing spaces, as various Marxists try to burnish their working-class credentials by bashing opposing ideas as “PMC”:

I’m surprised and taken aback by what I got from [Gabriel Winant’s] article. I got the sense within DSA, for example, “PMC” has become a slur of sorts?

… It’s interesting, but I hate to see “PMC” turned into an ultraleft slur. We’re going to have to work together! You’re probably college-educated yourself.

The problem is, by raising a cultural difference produced by different levels of education to a class difference denoting fundamentally distinct interests and practices, the concept of PMC inevitably heightened the divisions between mental and manual workers instead of facilitating a deeper alliance. The Ehrenreichs site an uncomfortable experience trying to bring together professors and workers in the 70s and invited some white workers to present their perspective:

John Ehrenreich and I had a New American Movement (NAM) chapter that often met in our house, and it was interesting in that it had such a mix of people by class—not, unfortunately, by race, but by class. There was a clump of people who were warehouse workers, who were involved in an organizing drive, and then, at the other extreme, there was a full professor and his wife. So it was fascinating and also terrifying to watch the interactions.

I think I in particular was very sensitive to these things because of my own background. My father had originally been a copper miner, and the other men in the family were railroad workers and other miners. But I had gone to college and gotten a PhD, so I was also a card-carrying member of the PMC. I could see the tensions rising. The professor and his wife, who became very dominant in the group, had a lot of contempt for the more working-class people. It was cringeworthy. To me it was important that people get along. We wanted a movement that would include the college teachers and the warehouse workers.

It didn’t work out. The professor and his wife walked out. First, they denounced me personally—they brought a copy of Mao’s Little Red Book, which they read aloud from, only whenever Mao was denouncing liberals, they would say “Barbara.” It was just bizarre, and it was painful at the same time.

Certainly, the ultra-left dogmatism of the professor presented in the story is insufferable and weird. Certainly, when she wrote this she was thinking it was indicative of a broader cultural phenomenon she had experienced in other settings. Yet it’s not clear that it’s a product of anything distinct to the PMC, or professors as a whole. This anecdote does reveal a sad truth, that many professors get caught up in weird ideological dogmas that are barriers to engaging with the wider community. Yet again, this can be explained by a simple cultural distinction.

We can see how the cultural source of this division plays out as increasing numbers of college-educated workers are thrust into working-class jobs, especially in the service sector. As there simply aren’t enough professional jobs for people with degrees, many have to spend some time in these working-class jobs. For some who never find a position in whatever they trained for, it becomes a career. The trope of the blue-haired feminist barista who got a Bachelor’s in the humanities is a silly stereotype, but its true that many of these educated workers bring their collegiate values to their workplace. They do not suddenly stop being “woke feminists” because they have fallen out of the professional class. What’s interesting, then, is the cause of their politics isn’t just a distinct set of interests that come out of being a professional, however much that is a part of their self-conception1 ; much of it is simply a product of their socialization.

Is the PMC why there’s no socialist movement?

The most popular critique of the PMC on the left today (and the one which led Barbara Ehrenreich to rightly decry its use as a slur) is blaming the professional-managerial sectors for the dominance of liberalism over socialism on the left. The thinking goes that the interests of the PMC is squarely rooted in sustaining the current system but making it better, motivating a politics of recognition over a politics of wealth redistribution. The PMC are not interested in taking over the means of production, but merely changing our culture to be more egalitarian and inclusive. The Ehrenreichs never went this far, and thought that the PMC’s interests were served by uniting with the working class. Yet we can see how a hyperbolic and histrionic reading of their argument might lead to the conclusion that the PMC is primarily interested in making people feel “seen”.

The politics of recognition is a part of the radical intellectual tradition on the left going back at least to Hegel. Hegel’s Master-Slave dialectic is, in part, a story of recognition as the master demands recognition from a slave he has dehumanized. Since the master has reduced the slave to his object, the master cannot recognize the slave as a real human subject, but by reducing the slave to a mere object the slave cannot grant the master recognition either. This logic informs many leftwing critiques of patriarchy, racism, and other hierarchies. By objectifying women, men cannot recognize their humanity, and women likewise are barred from forming fully human relationships with men. By objectifying black people, white people cannot recognize their humanity, and so on.

The struggle of recognition has a legal dimension, which is eliminating laws that make oppressive hierarchies de jure, such as the civil rights struggle against Jim Crow laws. It also has a cultural dimension, which means eliminating biases in the stories we tell. A not-unproblematic example of this would be the so-called “first black superhero” movie Black Panther.2 African Americans rightly did not feel recognized in the cultural output of Hollywood, and making more inclusive movies with black actors and black stories was seen as a solution. Finally, it has a workplace representation dimension, where some workplaces are deemed hostile to workers of a certain identity. Both Affirmative Action and DEI were policies intended to implement this (whether they were successful in this, or even good ideas in the first place, is not an issue I care to discuss here …)

The argument goes that the PMC are interested in this form of recognition instead of economic goals because they are relatively insulated from the dangerous workplace conditions, economic precarity, and exploitation of the working class. For this reason, they forego economic radicalism in favor of social radicalism. Despite criticizing the PMC as a class category, Chibber still offers a modest endorsement of this thesis that the higher education and wages of professionals lead them to a form of political radicalism devoid of class politics:

If you look at the criticisms on the Left of the influence of the PMC, the people who they’re talking about, the strata that they’re talking about, someone like Catherine Liu, who writes brilliantly on the PMC and the way in which virtue signaling has overtaken political analysis, we know who she’s talking about, and those people actually exist. I wouldn’t want to say “stop using the concept” because the same way that the Ehrenreichs used it, you know who they’re talking about. I think they were analytically flawed in the way they used it, but what they did with it made a lot of sense.

Chibber’s argument is that the PMC category might not meet the standards of a “scientific” Marxist category of class, but it does capture legitimate cultural tendencies in the educated elite and therefore works as a “folk concept”. In his view PMC denotes a general population that tends to be more interested in identity politics and virtue signaling because of their higher social status and insulation from the worst aspects of the job market.

I think there’s some value to Chibber’s argument, but it has its limits. First, manual laborers are themselves diverse, and while heterosexual white workers might not care about the politics of recognition, those who are minorities might. For example, working class African Americans of an older generation have voted repeatedly for moderate Democrats like Hillary Clinton who engage in the politics of recognition over candidates like Bernie Sanders who engage more noticeably in economic radicalism. For another, working class women have as much interest in eliminating sexual harassment in the workplace as professional women, and for every actress attacking Weinstein during the Me-Too moment there were plenty of working-class women with similar grievances against their bosses. Thus, it’s not clear to me that we can reduce identity politics to the interference of especially educated workers, and some of the grievances are legitimate even if the theoretical understanding of these grievances is often questionable.

Moreover, the death of economic radicalism in America has impacted manual and mental labor alike. We forget that the norm in the 1990s was a form of neoliberal centrism accepted both by workers and professionals. When the anti-NAFTA protests hit the United States, it brought an interesting alliance of workers and professionals together in opposition, but this opposition was ultimately too small, irrelevant, and politically divided to do much. The zeitgeist after the fall of the Soviet Union (really since the death of FDR) was resolutely anti-communist and fearful of any kind of economic radicalism. Most Americans were simply sold on the power of the free market, consumerism, conspicuous consumption, and the bold new world of technological capitalism. In such a setting, it was inevitable for many to rally around a politics of recognition that promised radicalism without challenging the perceived wisdom of liberal economics.

Finally, plenty of professionals complain as much if not more about the language policing, identity politics, and focus on recognition as the working class. They find it just as alienating, especially if their college education was at a more conservative school, took few humanities or social science classes, or if they received their education in an earlier time. How many times have we heard old, white, educated men complain that they “just don’t know what men are allowed to say anymore” lest they offend a woman they’re hitting on or a black coworker they’re telling a racy joke to. As much as “PMC” HR staff like to hassle employees with “woke” sexual assault trainings, many other “PMC” like to complain about these intrusions on their workday. Again, this suggests that divisions on the politics of recognition have more to do with other cultural commitments and personal experiences than specific class distinctions.

Conclusion

The PMC as outlined by the Ehrenreichs is not a class category, and it simply fails to capture what the category of “class” should. It conflates administrators and upper management with professionals, and therefore people who set metrics of productivity and manage workers with those who engage in the mental side of productive labor (if one still insists on being snarky about this group, perhaps a better term would be “Professional-Managerial Subculture”, or “PMS”). It does capture a real cultural difference between workers with a professional education and those without, but those cultural differences are not absolute and carry over whatever class these people end up inhabiting. Nor are they even the most important cultural differences separating workers today. I would say the divisions between citizen and migrant labor and between urban and rural labor are at least as significant as the one between those with and without a university education.

The Ehrenreichs were making a good-faith effort to overcome the division between mental and manual labor through their intervention. In many ways, their effort was admirable, and they drew many useful conclusions. Yet because it rests on a mistaken distinction, they only fueled the divisions they were trying to overcome. Today, it’s been reduced to a cheap insult which different factions of left-wingers to bash other left-wingers. It’s used as an ad hominem that simply distracts from anything interesting, and fuels divisions that rightwing populists can exploit. Moreover, the ironic truth is that most of the people attacking other people for being “PMC” are themselves “PMC”, and seem to be projecting their own anxieties as much as they are making a serious criticism.

I would argue that mental and manual laborers ought to see themselves as sharing a fundamental class interest, and that both are characterized by their exploitation. Ultimately, we’re all increasingly exploited by an aloof and arrogant class of owners, from Peter Thiel to Larry Ellison to Elon Musk to Donald Trump, as well as the countless other investors on Wall Street. Mental and manual workers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your shared chains!

  • 1Of course, many of these baristas retain their ambition for “something better”, and that does separate them from other workers who know they will be doing this for the rest of their lives, but all too many know full well that in this job market, this is as good as it gets.
  • 2For one thing, Wesley Snipes would like a word with whoever decided Black Panther was the first black superhero movie. For another thing, perhaps our symbol of emancipation shouldn’t be a fictional king of a traditionalist monarchy.

Comments

goff

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by goff on October 9, 2025

Comrade Motopu

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by Comrade Motopu on October 10, 2025

I thought this article was pretty good. I agree the whole "college professors are not working class/proles" thing is silly.

Disagree with goff's use of that meme here. I've done service sector, light blue collar warehouse work packing and driving trucks for hotel and convention center audio and visual, and worked in education at the high school and community college level. It was all prole exploitation but the education stuff was the most all encompassing, time consuming, and demoralizing (aside from mostly cool students and classes) of all.

westartfromhere

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by westartfromhere on October 10, 2025

Is a teacher productive? If they teach in a private school, yes, because they produce the commodity of education. If they teach in a public school, no, because the services they offer are not commodities.

Twaddle/waffle. Private sector and public sector both have the same dynamic. The production of value.

Submitted by goff on October 10, 2025

Comrade Motopu wrote: I've done service sector, light blue collar warehouse work packing and driving trucks for hotel and convention center audio and visual, and worked in education at the high school and community college level.

Anyone from those industries pump out articles why they’re just like you and me though? Dunno if the subaltern can speak but these cunts never shut the fuck up, read a dozen variations on this this year alone. Obviously LLMs are threatening livelihoods and that’s never nice but is anything of (post) political value at stake here, the main thrust of the PMC argument these mostly Yank binoclards do their best to evade? Obviously no. Nobody needs any more Verso books.

Submitted by Comrade Motopu on October 10, 2025

westartfromhere wrote:

Is a teacher productive? If they teach in a private school, yes, because they produce the commodity of education. If they teach in a public school, no, because the services they offer are not commodities.

Twaddle/waffle. Private sector and public sector both have the same dynamic. The production of value.

A bit disingenuous or you didn't read closely enough as the _next line_ is "Yet Marx, ever the dialectician, has to go complicate this distinction. Even if a teacher doesn’t directly contribute to the creation of commodities, they are a necessary step in the production process because they teach students how to be more productive and resourceful adults."

So there's no use to comment as if you're correcting the author?

westartfromhere

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by westartfromhere on October 10, 2025

...Even if a teacher doesn’t directly contribute to the creation of commodities

Yet this changes nothing Comrade man. Whether public or private sector, in production of education or horse manure for sale, commodities, i.e. value, are, is produced.

Useless twaddle.

Submitted by Comrade Motopu on October 10, 2025

goff wrote:

Comrade Motopu wrote: I've done service sector, light blue collar warehouse work packing and driving trucks for hotel and convention center audio and visual, and worked in education at the high school and community college level.

Anyone from those industries pump out articles why they’re just like you and me though? Dunno if the subaltern can speak but these cunts never shut the fuck up, read a dozen variations on this this year alone. Obviously LLMs are threatening livelihoods and that’s never nice but is anything of (post) political value at stake here, the main thrust of the PMC argument these mostly Yank binoclards do their best to evade? Obviously no. Nobody needs any more Verso books.

I'm not a Marx or Ehrenreich expert but I've read enough of both to understand some aspects of class, production, and surplus value extraction on the one hand, and that the Ehrenreich's writing in Radical America and elsewhere is thoughtful and actually worth a look for the ways they consider the changes in class composition during the time they were writing. I like Ehrenreich's _Nickel and Dimed_ and her _Fear of Falling_ books too.

I thought this Sam Badger essay had some careful presentation on the Ehrenreich's definitions of some mid level managerial class in regard to workers with less autonomy and different relationships to owners and capital, as they saw it. Part of this is how people like Catherine Liu vulgarized their work to attack fellow professionals, whether you think they are working class or not.

Anyway, I just wanted to chime in that I thought this article is worth a read because I know that sometimes writers have no way of knowing if anyone liked a thing they did and if they only see people tearing into it, fairly or not, then it can be demoralizing. I didn't think this piece deserved that.

Submitted by Comrade Motopu on October 10, 2025

westartfromhere wrote:

...Even if a teacher doesn’t directly contribute to the creation of commodities

Yet this changes nothing Comrade man. Whether public or private sector, commodities, i.e. value, are, is produced.

Useless twaddle.

You are agreeing with both the author and the quote he ascribes to Marx, but felt you had to perform an intervention to show how stupid both are. And it's not useless twaddle as it is not stating teacher's don't create commodities, it is setting up a premise to knock it down. That's my take anyway, which is why I think sometimes it's better not to say anything if you're only goal is you want to appear smarter than everyone else.

westartfromhere

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by westartfromhere on October 10, 2025

I'm not a Marx or Ehrenreich expert but I've read enough of both to understand some aspects of class, production, and surplus value extraction...

Yet you fail to comprehend that education for sale, whether in the public or private sector, is a means of adding value to value.

Is a teacher productive? If they teach in a private school, yes, because they produce the commodity of education. If they teach in a public school, no, because the services they offer are not commodities.

Twaddle reproduced

Comrade Motopu

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by Comrade Motopu on October 10, 2025

Sorry, no. You keep snipping things out of context and thus failing to consider the author's argument in good faith. The author is discussing different ways of considering value creation, not laying out a definition, in that section you keep snipping from. So when the author writes "Thus, from the point of view of an individual business, teachers don’t look productive, but from the point of view of society as a whole, the teacher is very much a part of the great proletarian machine of society" they are basically saying what you think you alone are saying, because you're _so much smarter_ than the rest of us.

To quote Hakeem Jeffries when he argued with Mike Lawler in the halls of congress yesterday "You're embarrassing yourself."

Comrade Motopu

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by Comrade Motopu on October 10, 2025

This got posted three times for some reason.

Comrade Motopu

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by Comrade Motopu on October 10, 2025

This got posted three times for some reason.

Submitted by goff on October 10, 2025

Comrade Motopu wrote:

goff wrote:
Comrade Motopu wrote: I've done service sector, light blue collar warehouse work packing and driving trucks for hotel and convention center audio and visual, and worked in education at the high school and community college level.

Anyone from those industries pump out articles why they’re just like you and me though? Dunno if the subaltern can speak but these cunts never shut the fuck up, read a dozen variations on this this year alone. Obviously LLMs are threatening livelihoods and that’s never nice but is anything of (post) political value at stake here, the main thrust of the PMC argument these mostly Yank binoclards do their best to evade? Obviously no. Nobody needs any more Verso books.

I'm not a Marx or Ehrenreich expert but I've read enough of both to understand some aspects of class, production, and surplus value extraction on the one hand, and that the Ehrenreich's writing in Radical America and elsewhere is thoughtful and actually worth a look for the ways they consider the changes in class composition during the time they were writing. I like Ehrenreich's _Nickel and Dimed_ and her _Fear of Falling_ books too.

I thought this Sam Badger essay had some careful presentation on the Ehrenreich's definitions of some mid level managerial class in regard to workers with less autonomy and different relationships to owners and capital, as they saw it. Part of this is how people like Catherine Liu vulgarized their work to attack fellow professionals, whether you think they are working class or not.

Anyway, I just wanted to chime in that I thought this article is worth a read because I know that sometimes writers have no way of knowing if anyone liked a thing they did and if they only see people tearing into it, fairly or not, then it can be demoralizing. I didn't think this piece deserved that.

You’ve elided what I said but alright. What is the relevance of any of this outside of the academy. My sympathy for self conscious professors facing precarity and now trying to engender solidarity is low. The irony is other than the priestly types no one wants to be or recognises themselves as working class. When they disappear, we won’t be missing anything politically which again is the PMC argument, if not calling them outright paralysing. We’ll survive fewer postcolonial studies books or Heatwave Magazine writers or Marx quotations. It’s a bummer Soren Mau or whoever is gonna have to drive uber or stack shelves full time, but it’s a bummer for anyone. First hand experience of that universality will help these lads.

PS. Liu is the worst kind of PMC and I don’t think I’m allowed to say what I really think here. I’ll agree she’s vulgar(ising).

westartfromhere

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by westartfromhere on October 10, 2025

Is a teacher productive? If they teach in a private school, yes, because they produce the commodity of education. If they teach in a public school, no, because the services they offer are not commodities.

If you can make sense from this non sense, do so.

Yes, teachers are productive. They produce the educated out of the non-educated.

Is the relationship to the sphere of production of a teacher in the private sector any different to a those in the public sector? No.

An educated person potentially has more exchange value through the sale of their labour power than a non-educated person but this is regardless of whether the education was via the private or public sector.

Public education, not commodification; private education, commodification?

This gibberish is worthy of the Industrial Academy.

Comrade Motopu

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by Comrade Motopu on October 10, 2025

Westartfromhere my last word on this exchange is that I object to bad faith intentional misreadings of a text posing as corrections of theory or information. I already explained exactly how you're intentionally torturing what the author wrote to pretend it's saying what it does not and you've doubled down on it rather than just step back and admit what you're doing here.

Comrade Motopu

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by Comrade Motopu on October 10, 2025

Goff, if you don't think adjunct professors and tenured profs are generally working class I disagree. You may not know the steps to tenure, it's a track. People on that track are fired or laid off all the time, and education, like all other sectors, is under constant attack. You may not understand the levels of exploitation the average adjunct (over 75% of professors are adjuncts) faces: the forced precarity of jobs, the low pay, the cobbling together of classes from different institutions in such a way that usually doesn't get you union representation or health care, the abuse by administration, by boards of regents (usually powerful local capitalists) and by government budget officials looking at the bottom line as they withhold funds resulting in slashing of entire departments. You might have missed how covid was used to accelerate that attack on university staff and teaching faculty (I call them workers). If you want to mock and ridicule that entire group of people and believe yourself to be defending the working class by doing so, I won't be joining you in that.

I'm probably done posting on this exchange if you and westartfromhere want the last word. I think your positions are anti-working class.

goff

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by goff on October 11, 2025

It’s a bit of a pussy move to say something, not like the answer and then take your ball home. This ain’t a DSA meeting, can’t be jazz hands to all things. I don’t even disagree they are working class or think this is a meaningful category in 2025, I just think they’re a sub sector like the labour aristocracy that I also share zero interest with. And it’s a bit of piss take seeing more and more professors pleading their case quoting Marx while obviously isolated and facing imminent demise. They weren’t doing this ten years ago. Them going away as a group undoubtedly opens the field on a radical anti-political level. I think that’s necessary. If you want to dissuade me, you’ll need an argument that isn’t we’re all worker oomfs.

And if you don’t like what I’m saying, first take it up with the academics I got this from, second speak to 300 odd milly also not ensconced in the university system and see how they feel.

Fozzie

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by Fozzie on October 11, 2025

On academics - two things can be true at the same time. My view is that they are certainly be proletarianised as a sector but still have many privileges that other workers do not (including cultural capital). This means that if they escape academia they will have greater success in securing clerical work (or even being barristas) than other workers. So it is reasonable to view these academic workers as a fraction of the working class (rather than in a class of themselves).

It also hard not to laugh at goff's meme as this is a fraction of the working class which seems uniquely disposed to producing texts about itself and its condition.

I have some sympathy with westartfromhere's comments on state-funded education producing a commodity - the "educated" worker. If we agree with Selma James that labour power is a commodity which is produced in the home then it seems reasonable to draw this across to the academy. Also there must be many other examples of state funded industries producing commodities - for example products manufactured in prisons in the UK by prisoners.

R Totale

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by R Totale on October 11, 2025

tbf, academics doing articles about how they're working class is definitely several degrees less tedious than the more frequent thing of academics doing articles about how all other PMC people are bourgeois and bad except for them.

Fozzie

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by Fozzie on October 11, 2025

Also this is especially weak:

For the most part, these skilled professionals were able to get better wages than the rest of society because so few knew how to do the kind of work they could do. Moreover, by the 1900s an increasing share of these jobs began to require credentials - while it was possible in the 1800s for anyone with a bone saw and a passing knowledge of anatomy could call themselves a “doctor”, by the 1950s there was a complex, formalized system of credentials and licenses. The role of credentials is an important part of the PMC category as outlined by the Ehrenreichs.

Yet isolating credentialing as a central factor doesn’t tell as much as the Ehrenreichs might have thought. There are many credentialed professional workers who engage in various types of manual labor, from hair stylists and barbers to welders to masseuses to yoga instructors. Even taxi drivers and truckers need licenses. None of these groups engage in the management or reproduction of capitalism, rather they produce commodities (or at least commodified services like a yoga class).

There are several critical differences in the credentialling of e.g. General Practitioners (registered Doctor) or architects - and being a barber or welder.

On a purely semantic level the former are described as being "professions" and the latter are not. This is partly because of the time and rigour required to attain the status of being a Doctor (and therefore the cost involved) but it is not only that.

Both architects and Doctors need to sign up to a code of ethics and can be "struck off" by their professional association if they are found to have committed serious wrongdoing. This would mean that they could no longer use their professional title or pursue that line of work.

Their professional associations also wield considerable power in terms of lobbying - arguably a great deal more than trade unions on an organisational level (i.e. not including strikes).

In the UK there is no professional association for barbers or welders that carries anything like that weight. These workers require some kind of qualification or business license but that is not the same thing at all.

Submitted by goff on October 11, 2025

R Totale wrote: tbf, academics doing articles about how they're working class is definitely several degrees less tedious than the more frequent thing of academics doing articles about how all other PMC people are bourgeois and bad except for them.

Like Batman needs The Joker, oblivious anti-PMC PMCs need defensive PMCs in denial. Kill two birds with one stone.

adri

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by adri on October 11, 2025

goff wrote: You’ve elided what I said but alright. What is the relevance of any of this outside of the academy. My sympathy for self conscious professors facing precarity and now trying to engender solidarity is low. The irony is other than the priestly types no one wants to be or recognises themselves as working class. When they disappear, we won’t be missing anything politically which again is the PMC argument, if not calling them outright paralysing. We’ll survive fewer postcolonial studies books or Heatwave Magazine writers or Marx quotations. It’s a bummer Soren Mau or whoever is gonna have to drive uber or stack shelves full time, but it’s a bummer for anyone. First hand experience of that universality will help these lads.

goff wrote: It’s a bit of a pussy move to say something, not like the answer and then take your ball home. This ain’t a DSA meeting, can’t be jazz hands to all things. I don’t even disagree they are working class or think this is a meaningful category in 2025, I just think they’re a sub sector like the labour aristocracy that I also share zero interest with. And it’s a bit of piss take seeing more and more professors pleading their case quoting Marx while obviously isolated and facing imminent demise. They weren’t doing this ten years ago. Them going away as a group undoubtedly opens the field on a radical anti-political level. I think that’s necessary. If you want to dissuade me, you’ll need an argument that isn’t we’re all worker oomfs.

Any reason you're calling people a sexist term (i.e. "pussy"')?

I also like how you don't see the irony in talking about a "professional managerial class" when it was coined by self-described Marxists (whose work contains plenty of inaccuracies in its presentation of Marx and Marxism). It's also fairly rich to associate "Marx quotations" with being a member of the so-called PMC, as if countless non-"professional" and blue-collar workers haven't invoked Marx themselves throughout history. The IWW itself—hardly a PMC organization—also included (and still includes) Marx's quote about abolishing the wage system in their preamble. It was also quite common historically for urban manual workers in places like the twentieth-century Russian Empire, for example, to try to acquaint themselves with socialist theorists and ideas. Are workers supposed to be idiots according to you in order to be sufficiently working class?

adri

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by adri on October 11, 2025

goff wrote:

Comrade Motopu wrote: I've done service sector, light blue collar warehouse work packing and driving trucks for hotel and convention center audio and visual, and worked in education at the high school and community college level.

Anyone from those industries pump out articles why they’re just like you and me though? Dunno if the subaltern can speak but these cunts never shut the fuck up, read a dozen variations on this this year alone.

goff wrote: You’ve elided what I said but alright. What is the relevance of any of this outside of the academy. My sympathy for self conscious professors facing precarity and now trying to engender solidarity is low. The irony is other than the priestly types no one wants to be or recognises themselves as working class. When they disappear, we won’t be missing anything politically which again is the PMC argument, if not calling them outright paralysing. We’ll survive fewer postcolonial studies books or Heatwave Magazine writers or Marx quotations. It’s a bummer Soren Mau or whoever is gonna have to drive uber or stack shelves full time, but it’s a bummer for anyone. First hand experience of that universality will help these lads.

Not everyone in the education sector is "pumping out articles [about] why they're just like you and me." If your issue is just with certain professors or writers, then just talk about those people instead of making blanket statements about the entire education sector being "PMC." Many workers in the education sector are in fact working class and face many of the same class-struggle issues (e.g. pay, hours, job security, etc.) that workers in other industries encounter, even if the former are not always producing value in the Marxist sense or creating physical commodities. The education sector has also historically been a major source for radicalism (however flawed), whether it was the student radicals in the Going to the People Movement in nineteenth-century Russia or stuff like the recent encampment protests in the US and elsewhere. The ruling classes have always been aware of this radicalism and have constantly complained about it (literally since tsarist times and probably even prior). It's for the same reason that the Trump admin is trying to restructure education in the US by cutting funding to schools if they don't get rid of certain subjects, for example. It's not clear who exactly you have an issue with when you rail against "professors" and the "academy," but if you're suggesting that universities in general have always had some kind of "paralyzing" influence on workers/students, then that's not accurate at all.

Comrade Motopu

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by Comrade Motopu on October 12, 2025

I just want to register my appreciation for adri's comments. I also think Fozzie's point about credentials is fair and constructive criticism.

Submitted by goff on October 12, 2025

adri wrote: Any reason you're calling people a sexist term (i.e. "pussy"')?.

I am deconstructing the term to its original etymology, ie. cat ala Derrida. But I have a feeling your line of discourse will be massively popular and ingratiating to the masses in the near future. I see the irony; I am using it for comic effect ala Stewart Lee (BA). Workers are not supposed to be idiots, no, they’re probably PMCs. I feel I’ve addressed the rest of your points already, which you can see with a careful reading.

adri wrote:if you're suggesting that universities in general have always had some kind of "paralyzing" influence on workers/students, then that's not accurate at all.

Oh ok.

adri

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by adri on October 12, 2025

goff wrote: I am deconstructing the term [nothing do I enjoy more than to go out with the boys after a hard day at the factory and deconstruct some texts a la Derrida] to its original etymology, ie. cat ala ["ala"—totally working-class, non-flowery prose here] Derrida. But I have a feeling your line of discourse will be massively popular and ingratiating to the masses in the near future. I see the irony; I am using it for comic effect ala Stewart Lee (BA). Workers are not supposed to be idiots, no, they’re probably PMCs [???]. I feel I’ve addressed the rest of your points already, which you can see with a careful reading.

Ah yes—a cat—because when some bloke calls his mate a "pussy," or when the coach scolds the team for playing like a bunch of "pussies," they're "definitely" just referring to cats, rather than using a form of synecdoche (unconsciously of course) in which "pussy" is a substitute for women who are deemed cowardly and weak.

goff

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by goff on October 12, 2025

A scaredy cat? 🙀

Steven.

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by Steven. on October 13, 2025

Admin: trolling by goff  removed
goff, any further misogynist language, personal abuse or blatant trolling and you will get banned

westartfromhere

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by westartfromhere on October 14, 2025

adri wrote: Any reason you're calling people a sexist term (i.e. "pussy"')?

Any reason you used a sexy term, "wanker", in reference to our admin, Steven?

Footnote: Sorry, can't provide a link to the discussion in which the insult (personal abuse and references to sexual behaviour) of a sexy bent was levelled at the admin, but it was a discussion on the indigenous issue of the Americas.

Excuse going off topic but hypocrisies and double standards need calling out at the point they occur.

Submitted by westartfromhere on October 14, 2025

Comrade Motopu wrote: Westartfromhere my last word on this exchange is that I object to bad faith intentional misreadings of a text posing as corrections of theory or information. I already explained exactly how you're intentionally torturing what the author wrote to pretend it's saying what it does not and you've doubled down on it rather than just step back and admit what you're doing here.

The author makes the mistake in believing that the "private" and "public" sectors of the economy have some different rationale, yet both work in precisely the same way and are dictated by the same motivation, valorisation of capital. Typical vulgar Leftism.

Steven.

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by Steven. on October 14, 2025

Admin: Abusive post by goff removed. 48-hour ban.

noslavery

1 month 3 weeks ago

Submitted by noslavery on October 15, 2025

All wage slaves have option to get united. Their position in hierarchy is not relevant. What is important is what they should get united against? I say, get united against our own authoritarian culture. For wage-slavery to work, authoritarian culture is necessary. In fact, capitalism is a stage of the evolution of authoritarian culture in our living type. Once we get rid of this culture, we can have more saying about the future of our lives on this planet. We cannot get rid of this culture by democracy or dictatorship as both require authoritarianism. We really need to dig deeper and remove this root.

Submitted by westartfromhere on October 18, 2025

adri wrote: ..."pussy" is a substitute for women who are deemed cowardly and weak.

A ' "pussy" ' does not denote gender. The slang term is derived from the perceived weakness of a domesticated cat. You are confusing the term for female genitalia with the term for a cowardly weakling. Below is the entry on Websters. Note definitions 2 & 4 as separate.

pussy

noun (1)
ˈpu̇-sē
pluralpussies
Synonyms of pussy
1
: CAT
2
: a catkin of the pussy willow
pussy

noun (2)
pus·​sy ˈpu̇-sē
pluralpussies
1
vulgar : VULVA
2
a
vulgar : SEXUAL INTERCOURSE
b
vulgar : the female partner in sexual intercourse

pussy

adjective
pus·​sy ˈpə-sē
pussier; pussiest
: full of or resembling pus
a pussy wound
pussy

4 of 4
noun (3)
pus·​sy ˈpu̇-sē
plural pussies
slang
: a weak or cowardly man or boy

Webster's Third International Dictionary suggests that pussy in the sense of "vulva" may be connected to Old Norse pūss and Old English pusa, meaning 'pocket' or 'purse'.

A reddit contributor wrote the following:

Ever do any research before you mouth off? According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the absolutely definitive source for both meaning and etymology of English words, it can be found as far back as 1583 meaning, "a finicky, old-maidish or effeminate boy or man." It shows up as early as 1843 meaning "cowardly or soft," as in this quote from a primer: "I walked carelessly among the soldiers and concluded they could never fight with us. They appeared to me to be too pussy." As a slang term for "the female pudendum," however, it does not show up until 1880, nearly four decades later. Clearly, the use of "pussy" as a weak, soft, cowardly person, usually a male, is related to the use either of pussy as a term for cats and bunnies (soft-furred), or pusillanimous (cowardly) and does not derive from women's genitalia. Good job being super-woke though!

adri

1 month 2 weeks ago

Submitted by adri on October 18, 2025

westartfromhere wrote:

Some Redditor wrote: Clearly, the use of "pussy" as a weak, soft, cowardly person, usually a male, is related to the use either of pussy as a term for cats and bunnies (soft-furred), or pusillanimous (cowardly) and does not derive from women's genitalia. Good job being super-woke though!

Oh look, westartfromhere posting anti-wokeness bullshit now—after first littering this site with his strange and offensive posts (going on 2 years now), editing other people's articles without their knowledge or permission, posting reactionary-religious rubbish that has nothing to do with communism (e.g. articles on black creationism, which he has since re-posted as a comment under another article), posting anti-mask, Covid-conspiracy nonsense, and engaging in a whole range of other nuisance behavior.

What a coincidence also that the Redditor (and now westartfromhere) defending the use of the word "pussy" as an innocent insult, along with providing an entirely erroneous etymology of the word, is against "wokeness"!

westartfromhere wrote: A ' "pussy" ' does not denote gender.

It's an incredibly gendered word and has been both historically, when it was commonly used to "affectionately" refer to women (e.g. "pussycat"), and contemporarily where it is almost always used in a vulgar/offensive sense (e.g. calling a man a "pussy" to demean them as effeminate). Quit being an imbecile.

I'm not a linguist or etymologist, but it appears as if the use of the word "pussy" as an insult also partly originates from the use of the word "pussy/pussycat" to refer to women. Hence the word's application to men acts as an insult rather than a term of "endearment." It's also not at all true that the word "pussy" as an insult derives from the word "pusillanimous," two words which aren't even pronounced the same. Here's the linguist Mark Liberman (not a goddamn Redditor) refuting that idea:

Liberman wrote: So to sum up:

- There's a plausible and well documented etymology for the sense of pussy in question, namely puss + y → pussy = childish or colloquial word for "pet cat" → term of endearment for a woman → sweet or amiable woman → sweet or effeminate man → weakling/coward/sissy, with the parallel development of pussy = female genitals lurking somewhere in the background.

- Puss is Germanic in origin, and definitely is not a shortened form of the Latinate word pusillanimous. The hypocoristic ending -y has been widely used in colloquial English for 500 years, and similarly has no connection with pusillanimous or any other Latinate word.

- There's no positive evidence for the pusillanimous → pussy derivation as a genuine historical source—it seems to be a sporadic folk etymology.

- The pronunciation difference (onset [pj] vs. [p], vowel [ʊ] vs. [u]) makes the pusillanimous → pussy derivation implausible in any case.

Still, if you and goff want to go around calling people "pussies" (and providing false etymologies), then go for it and see how that works out for you; you'll be in the company of the mostly male-chauvinist morons who regularly use the term in a gendered and vulgar/offensive sense to describe a man as so-called "womanlike," rather than referring to the qualities of cats.

westartfromhere

1 month 2 weeks ago

Submitted by westartfromhere on October 19, 2025

Pussy was my sister's pet name given her by her mum. Mum was German Jewish emigre and didn't know its English double meanings. Let's defer to the Oxford English Dictionary on definitions. It cites first usage of words in literature for these two expressions.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the absolutely definitive source for both meaning and etymology of English words, it can be found as far back as 1583 meaning, "a finicky, old-maidish or effeminate boy or man." It shows up as early as 1843 meaning "cowardly or soft," as in this quote from a primer: "I walked carelessly among the soldiers and concluded they could never fight with us. They appeared to me to be too pussy." As a slang term for "the female pudendum," however, it does not show up until 1880, nearly four decades later.

Our local libary does not open on a Sunday. Thus, I have no access to confirm the above citation to be authentic. If you have access to the twenty volume dictionary, you may.

It is quite possible, I suppose, that pudendum (a person's external genitals, especially a woman's.) could be the etymology of the word pussy in its late 19th century meaning.

Woke and anti-woke are foreign terms to me. Is woke something akin to born again?

adri

1 month 2 weeks ago

Submitted by adri on October 19, 2025

I'll quote your "source," i.e. a Redditor, in full for you since you decided to omit the last part of his paragraph, which I've put in boldface here:

westartfromhere wrote: Let's defer to the Oxford English Dictionary on definitions. It cites first usage of words in literature for these two expressions.

Some Redditor wrote: According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the absolutely definitive source for both meaning and etymology of English words, it can be found as far back as 1583 meaning, "a finicky, old-maidish or effeminate boy or man." It shows up as early as 1843 meaning "cowardly or soft," as in this quote from a primer: "I walked carelessly among the soldiers and concluded they could never fight with us. They appeared to me to be too pussy." As a slang term for "the female pudendum," however, it does not show up until 1880, nearly four decades later. Clearly, the use of "pussy" as a weak, soft, cowardly person, usually a male, is related to the use either of pussy as a term for cats and bunnies (soft-furred), or pusillanimous (cowardly) and does not derive from women's genitalia. Good job being super-woke though!

Can you not read?? That's not the "Oxford English Dictionary"—that's some anti-"woke" male-chauvinist Redditor who you're just copying and pasting. He's also providing an entirely false etymology by suggesting that the word "pussy" derives from "pusillanimous," which it absolutely does not. I literally just told you all of this and provided you with a much more reliable source for the etymology of the word "pussy" in its offensive/vulgar sense. Here's the linguist Liberman yet again:

Liberman wrote: So to sum up:

- There's a plausible and well documented etymology for the sense of pussy in question, namely puss + y → pussy = childish or colloquial word for "pet cat" → term of endearment for a woman → sweet or amiable woman → sweet or effeminate man → weakling/coward/sissy, with the parallel development of pussy = female genitals lurking somewhere in the background.

- Puss is Germanic in origin, and definitely is not a shortened form of the Latinate word pusillanimous. The hypocoristic ending -y has been widely used in colloquial English for 500 years, and similarly has no connection with pusillanimous or any other Latinate word.

- There's no positive evidence for the pusillanimous → pussy derivation as a genuine historical source—it seems to be a sporadic folk etymology.

- The pronunciation difference (onset [pj] vs. [p], vowel [ʊ] vs. [u]) makes the pusillanimous → pussy derivation implausible in any case.

westartfromhere wrote: Our local library does not open on a Sunday. Thus, I have no access to confirm the above citation to be authentic [it's not...]. If you have access to the twenty volume dictionary, you may.

I think you need to find something better to do with your time than harassing library workers for access to the Oxford English Dictionary so that you can look up the etymology of "pussy," especially when Liberman provides a reliable etymology above.

Here's another good article on this as well:

TL;DR? Pussy is not short for pusillanimous. Going back through the research, the word is closely related to women, women’s genitalia, and weak, effeminate men. The use of the word to mean “coward” is offensive to both genders — somewhat more to women than to men — and if you have an ounce of maturity you will stop using it that way.

westartfromhere

1 month 2 weeks ago

Submitted by westartfromhere on October 19, 2025

I will wake up tomorrow and go to the reference library and take the volume from the shelf. I know of no other source of reference that cites dates of the earliest literary use of English words. That way we will know definitively the dates of usage of the word pussy with its different meanings, coward and....

adri

1 month 2 weeks ago

Submitted by adri on October 19, 2025

westartfromhere wrote: I will wake up tomorrow and go to the reference library and take the volume from the shelf.

How about you don't wake up tomorrow but still go to the reference library, i.e. in your dreams. That way you can just imagine that you're right (when you're very clearly not) and those poor library workers will be spared from having to deal with your bullshit.

R Totale

1 month 2 weeks ago

Submitted by R Totale on October 19, 2025

I think that rather than trying to debate the etymology of how a particular word was used in 1845 you could just spend a little bit of time observing how the word is used in contemporary English today, where it is clearly and unmistakably a gendered/macho insult.

westartfromhere

1 month 2 weeks ago

Submitted by westartfromhere on October 19, 2025

You mean two words, coward and punnany, both used contemporaneously. Two meanings with two derivations. Look at the context to determine which word was being used.

It’s a bit of a pussy [cowardly, or vagina?] move to say something, not like the answer and then take your ball home.

The author gave us a clue: "scaredy cat".

Let's illustrate:

1. pussy, late 19th century term for genitalia, possibly derived from pudendum, perhaps a term overheard in a doctor's surgery. "Gonna ram and jam my Mrs's pussy tonight."

2. pussy, cowardly, 16th century term derived from the perceived nature of a domesticated cat. "Don't be a pussy! Death becomes us."

Edit:

On reflection, perhaps we have been over lenient with our fellow user, goff? The use of a speciest expression such as pussyfoot is deserving of a lifetime ban.

At least this thread has given us an opportunity to further reflect on the irony of defending the footsoldiers of the ivory tower whilst bowing down to the ivory tower.

Submitted by westartfromhere on October 19, 2025

Comrade Motopu wrote: I think your positions are anti-working class.

That's an odd one, Comrade. To state that the public sector and the private sector both act according to the rationale of capital, i.e. valorisation by means of extracting surplus value, is an anti-working class position? To the state the contrary, as the author of this article does, places the article in the realm of social-democracy, 'the totality of reformist forces which have had, for practice and as content, the affirmation of counter-revolution under the form of a bourgeois programme for the proletariat.'

Is a teacher productive? If they teach in a private school, yes, because they produce the commodity of education. If they teach in a public school, no, because the services they offer are not commodities.

Problem with The problems with PMC Theory, by Sam Badger, 2025 (reproduced by libcom.org, October 9, 2025)

Submitted by goff on October 27, 2025

adri wrote: Still, if you and goff want to go around calling people "pussies" (and providing false etymologies), then go for it and see how that works out for you; you'll be in the company of the mostly male-chauvinist morons who regularly use the term in a gendered and vulgar/offensive sense to describe a man as so-called "womanlike," rather than referring to the qualities of cats.
.

One, it wasn’t false, it was a wind up. Does mean scaredy cat though. Two, swathes of the ultraleft’s supposed base are openly calling themselves far right largely from fatigue of language policing, how’s that working out for you. I’m not even a Nina Power, I like a bit of woke. But I like being uncouth as well though, like the vast majority of the non university working class. Don’t need to be Garry Kasparov to know tut tutting at them is a dogshit strategy.

Three, I am a male misandrist that thinks Valerie Solanas didn’t go far enough. Which just goes to show use of words in isolation give little indication of intent. How many right on brothers say all the proper things and treat women like shit in private. Like Arnie said, relax, you’ll live longer.

adri

1 month 1 week ago

Submitted by adri on October 28, 2025

goff wrote: One, it wasn’t false, it was a wind up. Does mean scaredy cat though.

It doesn't mean "scaredy cat" in the vast majority of cases, and I've also already addressed all of this. See Liberman for an etymology, in which the coward meaning partly derives from the use of the term as a form of "endearment" for women; hence the word's application to men acts as an insult instead (i.e. calling them "womanlike"). You can go around thinking a cat's a dog, but if everyone else thinks a cat's a cat then it doesn't really matter what you think.

I'm sorry that you're also just now figuring out that the language you've been using is actually sexist; maybe you can grow from this experience and re-consider some of the other words you've been using to insult others.

goff wrote: Two, swathes of the ultraleft’s supposed base are openly calling themselves far right largely from fatigue of language policing, how’s that working out for you.

goff wrote: Three, I am a male misandrist that thinks Valerie Solanas didn’t go far enough. Which just goes to show use of words in isolation give little indication of intent.

Good riddance—they likely weren't socialists to begin with. I'm also not "policing" your language; I asked you why you're insulting someone by calling them a "pussy" in a discussion. There's a huge difference between, say, a Patti Smith being "uncouth" and using the n-word in her song and some racist using it to insult someone. Context and intent are important, and in this context your intent was obviously to insult someone by calling them a coward with a sexist term.

goff wrote: I’m not even a Nina Power, I like a bit of woke. But I like being uncouth as well though, like the vast majority of the non university working class.

The majority of workers also aren't socialists, so I'm not sure what you think you're proving here. That we should all start insulting people by calling them "pussies" because a significant segment of the working class might find such language acceptable? A large segment of the working class are also racist idiots, I mean really. I also have more faith in the "vast majority of the non university working class" and don't think that they regularly hurl insults like "pussy" at people (e.g. most women...), if that's what you mean by "uncouth."

Isn't it also strange how most women don't use the word "pussy" to insult someone—it's almost as if it's not just another way of calling someone a "scaredy cat."

goff wrote: Don’t need to be Garry Kasparov to know tut tutting at them is a dogshit strategy.

Chess doesn't mean you're smart; it means you've wasted your life studying a board game. Nobody is also "tut tutting" others; I've only asked you why you're insulting someone by calling them a "pussy" in a discussion.

goff wrote: How many right on brothers say all the proper things and treat women like shit in private. Like Arnie said, relax, you’ll live longer.

This was a major problem with '60s-'70s radicalism in fact. It is an issue and should be addressed. I don't understand why you seem to disagree. We certainly shouldn't just "relax" about stuff like that...

goff

1 month 1 week ago

Submitted by goff on October 29, 2025

Did I miss the ultraleft meeting (of ten) where people decided no longer to meet workers where they are, flaws and all? Getting the distinct vibe this is peak levels of fucked. But if it’s about staying the course, regardless of efficacy, that sounds kinda religious innit? Think the godbothers even have a word for it.

Submitted by goff on October 29, 2025

adri wroteYou can go around thinking a cat's a dog, but if everyone else thinks a cat's a cat then it doesn't really matter what you think.

By the way, the fash and TERFs make that argument. They without sin cast the first stone eh.

adri

1 month 1 week ago

Submitted by adri on October 29, 2025

goff wrote:

adri wrote: You can go around thinking a cat's a dog, but if everyone else thinks a cat's a cat then it doesn't really matter what you think.

By the way, the fash and TERFs make that argument. They without sin cast the first stone eh.

As in you can go around thinking that "pussy" means a "scaredy cat," but if everyone else associates the word with the insult of calling someone "womanlike," then the specific meaning you attach to the word doesn't really matter.

Why don't you go somewhere else to be an idiotic troll (you've already admitted that you're just here to "wind people up")?

goff

1 month 1 week ago

Submitted by goff on October 29, 2025

“Being born in a stable don’t make you a horse”, got it. Well like auld Oscar said, “if you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they’ll kill you”, not really disproving his point lol. This PMC shit has got youse permanently outraged retreating into an enclave. If you’re this rattled by someone mostly sympathetic, youse are really gonna struggle with the fash at the gates. Just trying to help.

The posties are obviously going to put youse to pasture but a rising tide lifts all boats.

Submitted by Fozzie on October 29, 2025

goff wrote: Did I miss the ultraleft meeting (of ten) where people decided no longer to meet workers where they are, flaws and all? Getting the distinct vibe this is peak levels of fucked. But if it’s about staying the course, regardless of efficacy, that sounds kinda religious innit? Think the godbothers even have a word for it.

It would be wild if the few remaining nerds who post on Libcom represented "the workers" and I would be pleasantly surprised if the conversations on here bore any kind of resemblance to those happening irl personally.

Normal people exhibit a range of likes and dislikes for profanity, slang, sexist language etc and most of us have developed some rudimentary skill in evaluating what is appropriate and what isn't depending on the context.

I think we can probably discuss what is sexist and what isn't on here without irretrievably ruining the prospects for global working class insurrection.

goff

1 month ago

Submitted by goff on October 29, 2025

I agree Fozzie, think Libcom is generally representative of the shambling corpse of the ultraleft rather than the shambling corpse of the working class. I personally favour life and frivolity and new antagonisms. All this palaver over the word pussy (scaredy cat), for fuck sake, is temporarily harshing my mellow though. Isn’t this about PMCs and their deleterious crimes? Can we not steer this jalopy back on topic right into the lecture halls? I also evaded justice for using the word cunts by the way.

adri

1 month ago

Submitted by adri on October 30, 2025

goff wrote: All this palaver over the word pussy (scaredy cat) [boring troll—provide a source if you think it means "scaredy cat," otherwise fuck off], for fuck sake, is temporarily harshing my mellow though. Isn’t this about PMCs anyway? Can we not steer this jalopy back on topic right into the lecture halls? I also evaded justice for using the word cunt by the way.

You're not calling someone "womanlike," reinforcing gender conformity, and associating cowardice with womanhood when you use the word "cunt" as an insult though. It would be slightly ambiguous if a coach were to say that his team is "playing like a bunch of cunts" rather than "pussies." There is a major difference between calling someone a "pussy" to refer to cowardice vs calling someone a "cunt" to refer to some behavior you don't like. I would also argue that "cunt" is a sexist and problematic term as well, much more so in the US than in places like Australia where people sometimes use it affectionately. Many people also use the word "dick" as a term of abuse, though personally I'm not fond of either word or the association of human anatomy/activities with negative qualities or behaviors (e.g. puritanical and anti-sexual insults like "wanker," which many Brits who aren't even against such activities often use). Nonetheless, I've probably used half of these terms before myself (excluding insults like "pussy" and "cunt") considering how commonplace and colloquial they are, though I generally avoid them.

Let's get back on track though! You were talking about how education workers, people with degrees, and Marxists are all PMC, despite the fact that Marxists coined the term PMC and that you generally just don't know what you're talking about?

goff

1 month ago

Submitted by goff on October 30, 2025

What’s this really about adri, talk to me. You’ve been or are at university and feel personally slighted by my comments now over two weeks old. Could be an emeritus lover from afar to be fair. In any case, Sun Tzu warns of a hasty temper which can be provoked by insults.

Happy to go into greater detail why Sam Badger is not my friend despite his constant grabbing of my hand, if it’s conducted in good faith. I like many PMCs by the way, I read them exclusively. This will not save them however.

westartfromhere

1 month ago

Submitted by westartfromhere on November 3, 2025

Pussy cat or pussy cunt, that is a question. A banal one at that.

TIL that "professional-managerial class (PMC) is a social class within capitalism that, by controlling production processes through occupying a superior management position, is neither proletarian nor bourgeoisie."

Marxism is such a crock of shit. Management does not control production processes but mediates on behalf of the controller, capital, Mammon, and is payed wages, salaries, for doing so.

goff

1 month ago

Submitted by goff on November 3, 2025

Wikipedia being the absolute shits aside, you may want to scroll down to the history bit as it’s more germane to the conflagration here: “In that same essay, they argued that the notion of the PMC as a collective grouping was "in ruins" due to economic shifts in the 1990s and 2000s which changed their professional prospects. Some members (such as highly qualified scientists) "jump[ed] ship for more lucrative posts in direct services to capital"; others (such as lawyers, tenured professors, and doctors) found themselves in increasingly "corporation-like" workplaces; while others still (like those with backgrounds in media or the humanities) "spiral[ed] down to the retail workforce", unable to parlay their skills into higher-income jobs.” The PMC brethren don’t want to stack shelves, I’m sure someone said that here.