French 'explosion-threat' workers win redundancy pay

Great news!

Good to hear. Blowing shit up gets the goods! :)

They didn't blow anything up, they threatened to do so. I agree with Ernie on the other thread on this topic - this is not a means of struggle for the working class generally, it elicits very little to no support (except, as usual, amongst those who become deliriously happy at the smallest prospect of "action".)

Check out this article, written in todays Guardian on bossnappings and this particular struggle - I tend to agree with the conclusions she draws... it's a way of attracting attention to a patricular struggle, nothing more.

They didn't blow anything up, they threatened to do so.

I know, but adding the "threatening to" would've made it less snappy.

I agree with Ernie on the other thread on this topic - this is not a means of struggle for the working class generally, it elicits very little to no support (except, as usual, amongst those who become deliriously happy at the smallest prospect of "action".)

FFS, considering that our class loses pretty much every time, are we not allowed to at least celebrate a little bit when "action" gets "successful" "results"?

I think you're missing the point here. Sometimes workers get "results" by suing their employers in the courts. Sometimes workers get "results" in actions which are lead by unions (as most invariably are).

The question is one of method - are these methods those of the working class or, as in my opinion, not?(Which is not to say that workers 'shouldn't ' sue their employers where it is relevant, or that they shouldn't struggle because the unions are involved also). But do these methods contribute to the development of workers confidence, solidarity, their independece of action? No, even where they achieve "results".

There has to be a connection between the means and the ends (Note: I specifically DON'T think the "means justifies the ends" - that's the bourgeios justification for just about anything, including torture). The 'ends' are a society of solidarity and co-operation and the means leading us to that have to reflect that.

désolé, je ne peux écrire en anglais...

je suis à l'Organisation Communiste Libertaire (je traduis quelques-unes de vos infos sur le site de l'OCL)
Mais surtout je suis de Chatellerault près de l'usine Fabris dont vous avez parlé et où les ouvriers sont menacé de faire sauter l'usine avec des bouteilles de gaz.
Hier une autre machine a été brulée suite à l'échec des négociations à Paris.

Mais je pense qu'il ne faut pas fantasmer outre mesure, ce n'est pas l'insurrection. La CGT contrôle relativement bien tout, même si, au niveau supérieur la centrale ne se manifeste guère pour soutenir les "fabris".

Ce qui est frappant c'est que l'usine est comme une forteresse, les occupants y restent, pas de tentative d'ouverture à la population, peu de présence hors les murs de l'usine. On a l'impression que le choix du "médiatique" est plus important que l'extension de la solidarité active.

Ceci dit c'est quand même passionnant ne serait-ce que parce que, en ce moment, en France on a l'impression que beaucoup de choses fonctionnent par la force de l'exemple.... Ce qui ne plait pas du tout aux syndicats;

Soyons enthousiastes mais restons lucide

I meant to come on before and gloat about the ICC's lack of a clue. Then I see some of their androids still bemoaning the action.

You fruitloops will never learn, will you?

Jack, please show me where I used the word 'public' in my post. Who is this 'wider public' that you're referring to? I can only imagine it's the same people who feature in 'public opinion polls', you know, the kind which mostly say that strikers should be locked up...

From this non-existent word, you've managed to extrapolate a non-existing position (criticism of strike action). Have you never read anything we've ever written about support and solidarity with strikes?

Quite.

As class struggle starts hotting up is this not now the time for the ICC to realize that no-one listens to them, and everyone here disagrees with them?

Haven't they got their own website discussion board which they could use to scald workers who don't follow the ICC's strategy of the day?

can someone translate JPD's message. I am not too good with french cheers.

Thanks for the sarcasm Jack, maybe I should have been a bit more clear as you obviously didn't get it. I meant support from other workers, I would have thought that was obvious as I used the expression 'working class' (and the word 'workers' 4 times).

One of the key aspects of class struggle is the search for solidarity from other sections of the class. This is a point the ICC makes time and time again: the workers should take control of their own struggles and not be confined by sector / union / etc.. and they have to search for solidarity from other workers, whether in their own workplace or others. I said this exact thing at the recent ESOL teachers meeting

What happens at these factory occupations? In the main, they lock themselves in and thereby cut themselves off from that element of solidarity. We said something similar to this in relation to the Visteon struggle. We supported the Visteon workers struggle, but also pointed out the need to extend the struggle, to spread out of just the plants which were affected. This isn't some new position, it's something we've defended consistently for the better part of 30 years.

A better example: the Lindsey workers strike. This (second, more recent) strike provoked a huge response from other workers throughout the UK, a fantastic example of solidarity and organisation. Yes, the unions were there (and better prepared this time) and there were many fewer headlines this time around (no doubt because of the much less emphasis on 'British jobs for british workers') but the same fundamental issues faced these workers: the search for solidarity, for gaining some kind of control over their struggle. Again, we analysed and supported this struggle (from the above link):

(my emphasis)

Molly:

I guess that's inherent in being a 'fruitloop' eh? ;)

Jack: You haven't answered my question: who is the 'wider public' you referred to?

I was referring to post 5 - your first post was after that.

Yes, going back I can see I made a mistake in introducing the 'wider', you didn't say that, you said

I'm trying to be as prcise as possible, which was why I used 'working class'. There are strikes which get 'public support' - very often the 'fact' they have public support is down to the publicisation within the media - i.e. it's a struggle that some faction of the bourgeioisie supports, eg the 'sympathy' Gordon Brown had for the Lindsey workers in January when they were (supposedly) fighting for 'BJFBW'.

Struggles which involve picketts, workers walking out, solidarity strikes tend to get a lot less 'public support' (according to the media)

It's not obvious from your posts at all. (And why only 'sometimes'?)

Funnily enough, I would have said that this was exactly a situation when solidarity is most strongly needed. Workers are in a very weak position at this moment, most easily divided.

Just as an aside, isn't this a no flaming forum?

This whole 'wait until the rest of the working class is sympathetic' line is tired, old, useless, and quite frankly, counter revolutionary in every sense of the word. Direct action doesn't have public pollsters and the notion of 'waiting until the time is ripe' should be cast into the dustbin of history. It's amazing that there are those who still spout this nonsense in 2009.

at least the ICC are doing a good job of bringing everyone else on this board together in opposition to them - they're like the counter-vanguard - leading by way of getting everyone to do the exact opposite of what they say we should do

I wrote:

I think you missed the point of my post - the 'support I was referring to was a faction of the bourgeiosie, ie. no 'support' at all:

the point I've been trying to make is that of a general principle in the workers movement - again, not an invention of the ICC. The workers won here - and? I've already pointed out, they can win through the courts - that doesn't invalidate the need to do away with the bourgeios legal sytem...

Dead end wrote:

Which is nothing to do with anything I've written on here, but don't let that get in your way of having a go at the ICC.

Thanks JPD for your message.
Shame people seem too busy arguing to pay attention it.

Heres a go at a translation:

"Sorry i cant write in English...

I am in the Libertarian Communist Organisation (i sometimes translate some of your info on the OCL website)
Most importantly, I come from Chatellerault near the Fabris plant which you reported on and where the workers threatened to blow up the plant with gas cylinders.
Yesterday another machine got burnt as a result of negotiations in Paris failing to achieve anything.

But i think we shouldnt get over-excited here, the situation is not exactly one of insurrection. The CGT (French union) has control over most things, even though on the top level there is not much mobilization or support for the "fabris".

What is striking is that the plant is like a fortress, the occupiers stay in there, no real attempt to open to the population, little presence outside the factory walls. It feels like they chose media attention over the extension of active solidarity.

That said this is still exhilarating, if only because these days in France it looks like a lot of things work by the force of the example (..?).... which the unions are not happy with at all.

Lets be enthusiastic but lets remain lucid."

Thanks for the translation nico, it's quite useful