Black Rose on the massacre in Suruç

It was a bad idea to send 300 young people to a battle zone. Marxist-Leninism is also a bad social idea. Marxism-Leninism could escape criticism hundred years ago, today it cannot. The best Marxist-Leninism can offer is state capitalism.

Noclass, no one here like Leninism, but that seems like an odd response, I'll be honest. I mean, 30 people died and whatever we may think of their politics, the people who killed them would have just as happily killed us.

What the fuck, noclass? I guess empathy is off the table for anarchists then?

Sorry, I cannot accept your criticism. Marxist-Leninists, just like other capitalists, have been too wrong and too criminal after establishment of Soviet Union. I would write the same comment if libertarian communists do the same foolish thing. But usually, careless actions, looking at supporters as abstract labor power, is the job of capitalists or "state communist" (state capitalist) bosses in hierarchical organizations. The area that they have been sent, is one of the most dangerous zones in the world.

I was wondering when some of the loonier far left Kurdish skeptics was going to turn into borderline celebration of leftist deaths...

I don't know, noclass, this just doesn't seem the kind of situation to be scoring political points off the back off.

Start a thread on how bullshit Leninism is or restart any of the probably hundreds that are on the site already, but I think this is one where expressing solidarity and sympathy for the rank-and-file of Leninist organisation (I imagine most of the killed were activists, not the party hierarchy) is the most human reaction.

Noclass

Have you no empathy or compassion? They were young people and they were comrades who were blown up in a politically motivated attack. Does it matter that some of them didn't sit in the same part of communism as we do? Some of them did, there are anarchists amongst the dead, anarchists who clearly wanted to co-operate and work with other communists. How ideologically pure do you have to be to deserve a little sympathy. Have some respect.

Noclass. A very appropriate choice of username.

I'm away on family vaca. Sorry to
Hear about this tragedy .... No empathy for MLism
Sadness for the killed and wounded. Solidarity against all states and states in waiting

I think this is one where expressing solidarity and sympathy for the rank-and-file of Leninist organisation (I imagine most of the killed were activists, not the party hierarchy) is the most human reaction.

Since the article does not tell me Marxist-Leninism is a reactionary ideology, then politically, sympathy for those victims are used for supporting that ideology. It is like war situation. You have to criticize states and generals. This does not mean you do not care about boys and girls who die in the war they are in. On the contrary, you do, this is why you don't buy "support troops", though you know one of those solders is your son or daughter. I don't want my sympathy for humanity be used (abused) to support Marxist-Leninism.

Now read this from the article:

"The trip to Kobane was organized by the Marxist-Leninist organization Sosyalist Gençlik Dernekleri Federasyonunun (SGDF). They brought together youth–entire families–from across Turkey and beyond to give revolutionary support to the developing social revolution in Syrian Kurdistan."

I wouldn't say what I said if the article didn't mention the Marxist-Leninist organization.

I don not consider Marxist-Leninists as revolutionaries, they would be considered revolutionaries before 1917. We know what Bolsheviks has done now specially Stalin who formulated Leninism.

Shiites organizations in Iran send pilgrims to holy cities in Iraq, though they know they could be victims of bomb attack. If I criticize those organization for what they do, they tell me I have no sympathy and compassion for ordinary people.

How ideologically pure do you have to be to deserve a little sympathy.

You don't have to have ideology to deserve sympathy. You just don't get what I said because you have sympathy for Marxist-Leninism.

Fuck off noclass, you cretin.

You just don't get what I said because you have sympathy for Marxist-Leninism.

I don't have any sympathy for Marxist-Leninism, you simplistic idiot. I have sympathy for young people being blown apart by a suicide bomber. There's a time and place for critiquing Leninism, over the freshly killed bodies of young people isn't it. It just makes you come across as a heartless shit.

Yeah, noclass, you're really missing the point here.

noclass

I think this is one where expressing solidarity and sympathy for the rank-and-file of Leninist organisation (I imagine most of the killed were activists, not the party hierarchy) is the most human reaction.

Since the article does not tell me Marxist-Leninism is a reactionary ideology, then politically, sympathy for those victims are used for supporting that ideology.

this is fucking libcom, everyone here knows marx leninism is reactionarly, you stupid cunt, you dont state the fucking basics in every fucking article. Articles dont stand on ther own, they are part of a wider body of work, and in this case the nature of marx lenism is NOT THE MAIN POINT

Reactionary means abusing people. When people are abused, you condemn those who abuse them. It does not at all mean those who condemn have no sympathy for victims. You cannot say organization x is reactionary but is not abusing people. This is inconsistency.

Have tolerance. I said what I believed. I didn't insult anybody. I showed clearly that I have empathy and compassion and this is why I criticized sending those young people to battle zone. I even explained that I have sympathy for religious people who are victims of religious organizations. So you see it doesn't do anything with ideology.

Perhaps one day you will understand what I mean and may be one day I will understand what you mean.

You can continue insulting me, since you have not presented any reason or argument, I do not see any reason to read your insult anymore. And I don't think you have any chance for changing the world as long as you behave like those who abuse you.

Bye!

You may not have insulted anyone, but you've been pretty damn insulting.

showed clearly that I have empathy and compassion and this is why I criticized sending those young people to battle zone.

So people didn't choose to go? They were all ordered to go? You really have no clue how these things work do you?

@noclass Not only have you responded in a callous way to this news but you seem stupidly unaware that many a traveller comes to anarchism through such things as Marxist-Leninism- disgusting. And that those that were maimed and killed could well have been sympathetic to anarchism and could well have been future anarchists/libertarians.

Again, for the record, given that, although Flint has already mentioned it, a lot of the people (rightly) expressing their disgust at noclass's ubersectarian mentallness,[*] the young people targeted by this bomb were leftists from across the left political spectrum - including anarchists, social-democrats, various flavours of bolsheviks, members of a range of electoral parties and none.

The only thing that united them was their desire to lend their labour in the non-military work of clearing rubble and reconstructing Kobane, and learning more about the realities of what is happening on the ground there - a desire for more immediate knowledge that most participants in the debates here, whether supportive or sceptical have continually expressed. I also know at least one anarchist who posts on these forums who was there (but is thankfully unharmed, to the best of my knowledge).

noclass - your concepts of "objective support" etc, are remarkably Stalinist in their "guilt-by-association" logic. You should get out more. And maybe even trade in dogmatism for some genuine politics one of these days..

* edit: [appear to have missed this]

Well I guess the anarchist ocelot is talking about is me. And I am fine and uninjured (unlike some of the comrades whom I met there). Although I -kind of - feel ashamed to write these but :

1) If the only the deaths of anti-state anti-capitalists count as important there were one 20 age old anarchist from Eskisehir who was killed (also two other anarchists are injured, hopefully they are recovering now.) ( However I think this is a terrible way to approach this event)
2) The place the bombing happened was a cultural center connected to municipality and it was in Suruc, Turkey. It was not a war-zone at all . It was in the city center and it was a totally civilian zone (like us) (and if you exclude the fortress like buildings of Turkish Military). There were no plans to go to a war-zone.
3) So consequently the bombing was just to make afraid people who want to show solidarity to Rojava from Turkey or wider global community by way of attacking without provocation to unaware civilians. It was aimed to cut the ties of Kurdish movement from global comunity by giving the message of "if you come here, you will be murdered".
4) It was not a "leninist" dominated trip at all. There were no restrictions by sgdf. For example, I was wishing to write a report on libcom about the actual organisation of Rojava and the state (or the lack) of revolutionary transformation in the economical, social and political fields. I am sure there were many people who were going there with similar aims (to make documentaries, write other stuff, produce knowledge in general...) There were many people just joined to trip with their own will, not because of ideology of sgdf, but because they find this trip important and resourceful for further learning and maybe experimentation.

However of course many of these people are not with us any more unfortunately. Also my plans for writing a report is no more now. However I might write some stuff on my previous journey in the Kurdistan and my observations from there. Though it will need some time.

Solidarity

Wait, shit, kurrem, you were there? Fullest solidarity, man, glad to hear you're alright.

As kurrem.. corrects this incident was not in ' a war zone' and explains better to noclass that these people were not in general at least 'sent there' somehow 'under orders' as it were by some stalinist style military command. What propaganda the SGDF was making in the promotion of the trip or what it might subsequently make I've no idea and I doubt that noclass does either, so any criticism on that score would need some evidence and would be best placed elsewhere than here and now. Still people should not be throwing insults at noclass for their initially misplaced ideological comments.

Thanks, I am fine Chilli. I am just resting a bit for now (to process and make sense of all that happened). Solidarity.

Still people should not be throwing insults at noclass for their initially misplaced ideological comments.

Fuck that. S/he deserves all the insults for such callous ideological statements that are completely devoid of any critical thinking. Trying to score points off such a tragedy is fucking low.

an injury to one is an injury to all!

I am glad that you are fine Kurremkarmerruk. My condolences for the comrades and friends you lost.

Thanks everyone who has expressed or will express their feelings. I wish everyone was lucky as I was. Anyway I should stop posting "thanks" comments. So a big last thanks from me to everyone. Solidarity.

Not been on here for a while so just spotted this. Any differences aside, I'd also like to add my sincere condolences to kurremkarmerruk and anyone else connected to this tragedy.

A n international summary of actions by anarchists with the killed anarchists in Suruc. (Use google translate it is very short and with a lot of pictures so, it will do fine)
http://sosyalsavas.org/2015/07/anarsi-inisiyatifinin-yaptigi-uluslarasi-cagriya-gelen-yanitlar/

As I wrote earlier, condolences and solidarity to all those who perished, wounded and survived.

Ideological criticism aside, I guess the thing that stands out to me is the question of security for volunteers such as these or future ones. Obviously suicide bombers are harder to guard against, particularly in mass encampments and convoys. Certainly there must've been some form of security or even forewarning to those who volunteered that the risks of possible loss of life and limb where there, no? Trusting certain security lessons are learned and folks are less prone to being "sitting ducks" in some respects, even in so-called safe zones. (And yes, I read the above reporting by the Turkish comrade ---who, thank goodness, is safe and sound).

kurremkarmerruk

A n international summary of actions by anarchists with the killed anarchists in Suruc. DUse google translate it is very short and with a lot of pictures so, it will do fine)
http://sosyalsavas.org/2015/07/anarsi-inisiyatifinin-yaptigi-uluslarasi-cagriya-gelen-yanitlar/

Thanks for this, and just to echo other people's comments that I am really glad you are safe, but I am very sorry for all those who were not. As for "no class" going on about Marxism Leninism being rubbish, that is fair enough but this is not place for those kind of completely thoughtless comments. I personally used to be a member of a couple of Trot groups, as were lots of people I now know who are libertarian communists, and that could have been us who were killed if circumstances had been a little different

I am glad to hear that you are ok Kurre.

@NoClass, your political comment is not only unnecessary but completely ridiculous. Of course Leninism as a theory and political movement is problematic and we are all away of the many blunders of such organizing and the irrelevance of 20th Century Leninism. But seriously, is that all you have to say about what happened? You are not dealing with reality or living in reality if this is all you have to say on whats currently happening throughout Kurdistan(s).

This is the problem with always making every issue about revolutionary theory. Theory has its place but so does practice, if all you have to contribute is theoretical critique (strawman arguments) then you already have all the answers because your response is always the same. That is boring and unrealistic. Instead try and find allies throughout the world rather than always look to some theoretical difference to purely rest your conclusion on. There is more to revolution/insurrection/revolt/struggle and more to the world than a paragraph of blacker than black anarchist theoretical critique.

Unfortunately yesterday another injured person in the attack passed away. He was an anarchist. In the image below you can see names and photos of killed anarchists, including the last person (at the far right).

http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/suructa_yaralanan_genc_tutuklandi-1412241

Metin Keleş, who was injured in the bomb attack in Suruc, is taken from his house and put into jail. He was still injured because of the explosion (waiting for drug threatment to finish to underwent surgery) and he recently started also getting psychological help. However today morning cops take him from his house where he was sleeping with an operation supported by helicopters. Allegedly they pointed a gun to his head while taking him away. The only evidence Cops have against him is apparently another person's statement which might be taken under torture.

Well Fllint that is also sort of done right now (not about suruc people but YPG/J fighters). Turkey is not allowing corpses of killed YPG/J fighters to enter into Turkey now for more than a week now. Peopleand families are so upset about this, they can not bury their loved ones. Corpses are still held in trucks outside of border. The kurdish newspapers claim that this recent inhuman change in the policy of not letting corpses enter Turkey is directly coming from the government.

Another update on this wave of arrests: A friend of mine was trying to communicate with sgdf in izmir for a memorial even of some sort. Guess what? All (people we know) are arrested including the ones injured in the blast. As you can see Turkey is really serious not to even let people get rest, get well and respect the memories of whom they lost. I am hoping at least most of them will be released in one or two days.