Anarchists join fight against IS to defend Kurdish autonomous areas

Taken from a report by the French Anarchist weekly paper Alternative Revolutionaire this short article gives a taste of developements on the ground in the fight against Islamic State.

Submitted by Glimmer on October 3, 2014

On Friday 26th September Alternative Libetaire reported that "Istanbul anarchists along other leftists and feminists, have managed to cross over into Syria and the northern town of Kobane which is currently threatened by ISIS.”

“For several days at the Syrian-Turkish border, the city of Kobanê is besieged by forces of the Islamic State (Daesh). Kobanê is a strategic turning point. If the city falls, the whole of Syrian Kurdistan is threatened, and with it a political and social model, that of "democratic autonomy" and "democratic confederalism" built since July 2012.

More than 100,000 inhabitants and residents have become refugees on Turkish territory.
The city is defended by the People’s Protection Units (YPG), militias linked to the PKK, and in which alongside the majority of Kurdish fighters, are also Arabs, Turks, Muslims, Yazidis, Christians or atheists, united against the fanatics of Daesh/ISIS.

Thousands of young people, socialists, trade unionists, revolutionaries, feminists, libertarians have poured in from all over Turkey to Kobanê. They go there to support the refugees and defend the city.
The Turkish army tries to disperse them, yet is accused of being much more permissive with the jihadists who are also trying to cross the border to join Daesh/ISIS

Despite the blockades of the Turkish army, hundreds of activists and militants have managed to cross the border. Among them, the comrades of the Revolutionary Anarchist Action Group, who made the trip to Istanbul to join the defence of Kobanê.

Comments

Marx-Trek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 4, 2014

PKK leader Öcalan makes a statement for defending Kobane,
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/26/kurds-rush-across-turkey-defend-kobani-isis-syria

Its hard getting update news for today on whats happening on the ground - a few reports have trickled in from Ireland and other places....any updates posted here would be great.

Leo

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Leo on October 4, 2014

This is rather disgraceful though not really surprising.

Shorty

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Shorty on October 4, 2014

On Twitter there was a swedish journalist @joakim_medin in Kobane. Now over the border in Turkey. @Hest_ebooks has also been providing some updates via retweets.

Tyrion

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Tyrion on October 5, 2014

Defending human lives is brave and admirable, though I'm not sure why anarchists should risk their lives to defend "democratic autonomy" and "democratic confederalism" as implied in this piece.

Marx-Trek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 5, 2014

Tyrion would you mind explaining your position a little further? Are you suggesting that Anarchists should only act when their direct interests, their type of politics, and their world view in itself is directly attacked?

I fail to see what the hesitation to defend an area/region form a militarized reactionary force that wants to institute an order that would surely go to dangerous levels of violence enacting their world view at the price of anyone who does not fit within what is deemed as tolerable.

Mark.

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on October 5, 2014

Report from Al Akhbar English:
http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/‘we-will-turn-kobanê-hell-isis’

Marx-Trek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 5, 2014

But why? I fail to see why people in that region, anarchists and other leftists who have chosen to fight against ISIS, would be better off setting up help centers for refugees, taking a passive position rather than active defense?

Marx-Trek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 5, 2014

https://twitter.com/wsmireland and Ireland's Workers Solidarity Movement's FB is a coming out with up to date info as well: https://www.facebook.com/WorkersSolidarityMovement

Devrim

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Devrim on October 5, 2014

Marx-Trek

I fail to see what the hesitation to defend an area/region form a militarized reactionary force that wants to institute an order that would surely go to dangerous levels of violence enacting their world view at the price of anyone who does not fit within what is deemed as tolerable.

Are you talking about the PKK or the Da'esh?

Devrim

Marx-Trek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 5, 2014

Da'esh (ISIS).

Devrim

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Devrim on October 5, 2014

Marx-Trek

Da'esh (ISIS).

OK, it just could have applied to both of them.

Devrim

mikail firtinaci

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 5, 2014

The question is not fighting against ISIS BUT fighting FOR PKK. There are no civilians left in Kobane and the fight today is only serving to specific organizations: PKK and ISIS. Why should any genuine internationalist should sacrifice herself for this counter-revolutionary massacre?

If ISIS is reactionary than PKK is also reactionary, and in my opinion PKK is still continuing the fight mainly because, first it wants to draw the attention and appreciation of western secular public scared by the ISIS terror, and second to show its fighting capacity to the NATO states which can potentially see in PKK a potential ally.

To really fight against ISIS, revolutionary internationalists have to reach its popular base; in middle east this is sunni arabs and other sunni groups. But overall, we need to find better methods and theories to understand the contemporary nihilism and its roots giving birth to those crazy ideologies and gangs. Make no mistake; nihilist suicidal anti-humanism is neither a product of Islam nor Middle East, even though it is more clearly and violently expressed in Iraq and Syria today. Just remember Brievik and his murderous attach in Norway in 2011.

Nihilism is a widespread and dangerous tendency and to kill it we need more serious preparation, endurance, and time than it takes to destroy its one particular expression: ISIS.

One note about PKK and secularism: I see people like David Greaber sharing women guerrilla pictures fighting on the side of PKK as if it is a proof that PKK is the guarantee of women's liberation against islamist reaction in the region. You have to see that this is a shameless pr campaign that mystifies the truth. It is true that many women are joining the PKK from especially lower class sections of Kurds in Turkey. However, Kurds in Turkey tend to be more conservative and religious than Turks (on avarage) and Kurdish women are even more oppressed in Kurdish families. Forced marriage at a young age is a common problem in North Kurdistan (Kurdistan in Turkey). Under those circumstances joining PKK is a way of escape, since once armed women get to earn respect and if they are lucky they can rise in the organizational apparatus. In one sense, just as the way ISIS exploits the material degradation of sunni-arabs, PKK exploits the Kurdish proletarian women's harsh conditions. But neither of them propose any solution to those material problems - they both capitalize on poverty and oppression of particular groups (sunnis, arabs, women, etc) and do nothing to resolve that; it is basically like a form of military-pirimitive accumulation.

jef costello

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on October 5, 2014

Kobane seems to form part of the Western Kurdistan mentioned here.
http://libcom.org/news/experiment-west-kurdistan-syrian-kurdistan-has-proved-people-can-make-changes-zaher-baher-2

Which puts the lie to the presentation of events there.

As has been said above, for anarchists to head over there is not a bright idea. Hopefully they won't get themselves killed for nothing.

In terms of active defence, what are you actively defending? West Kurdistan which has basically signed a cynical pact with Assad? The city itself? The people of the city? The idea of democracy?

Marx-Trek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 5, 2014

Is there nothing more to be said about PKK, YPG, DAF, and clearly seemingly anarchists and autonomous groupings and tendencies going to the region to fight against ISIS? Is it just that easy to brush aside groups in the area fighting against ISIS (which is, for this region, an extremely dangerous and reactionary group likened to the extreme rightwing in the west and christian fanatics in the US and Norway) and just explain away their movements, political developments, ideology, and actions are mere opportunism. Does this not, to a point, then make everyone and any political group an opportunist? Anarchists are going to the region only to score political points...I am thinking there could be more to this than just political opportunism.

I am having a hard time seeing that the PKK or YPG's feminism is just strategic opportunism and not an actual reaction and struggle against sexism in the region. An armed group that is supported or part of a party that seems to have a feminist analysis seems to be ahead of the west where women appear to be token soldiers within a male dominated group. I just see there being more to this than just opportunism, depending on how opportunism is understood.

I admit I am not from the area nor am I clued in as to the daily experiences...I do draw a conclusion that this situation and the involvement of autonomous democratic kurdish forces, kurdish and turkish leftists, etc...is a popular rising against extreme reactionary forces. I would like to liken this to western actions against the extreme right, religious rightwing, etc..- but militarized.

I just dont see the over all issue with people and people who are anarchists wanting and fighting against ISIS to defend the region. Though maybe a little simplistic, I don't see the difference between: anarchists and antifascists linking up with groups to protest and fight against the rightwing and extremist christians here in the west and fighting against ISIS...

mikail firtinaci

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 5, 2014

Just one small example from the past about PKKs role in the region: about 7-8 years ago (If I remember correctly) the Turkish government organized a military operation in Iraq against the PKK. It was a usual thing back than. Turkish state had a habit of barbarically raiding Northern Iraq to instill fear. The Turkish left was silent and the Kurdish left could only raise its voice mainly in Northern Kurdistan. Back then we (EKS) prepared an internationalist leaflet protesting this action and distributed it in a several universities in Ankara. For us it was an important thing to at least show that you could condemn Turkish imperialism without necessarily supporting Kurdish nationalism. Obviously the main target of the leaflet was the Turkish state and the Turkish government. But we included a short but principled criticism of PKK; ONE line criticizing the cynical role of BDPs MPs. Only ONE.

Next day a few people from PKKs student organization approached us. They said if we did not erase the line criticizing PKK and its MPs as "left wing of the bourgeoisie" they would effectively implement a political ban on our group hindering us from carrying out propaganda. It included an implicit physical thread as well. Since, we were in the "west", far away from Kurdistan, the threat was milder. However, anyone who studied the history of the Kurdish nationalism would know that PKK came to dominate Kurdish politics through violence and brutality, by physically liquidating ALL the other Kurdish leftist tendencies. Anyway the next day we decided not to distribute any leaflet... Honestly we were not planning to do so in the first place.. But also, obviously turkish nationalism was threatening enough, and we did not have enough forces to face an attack from Kurdish nationalism as well...

Today all revolutionaries faces those conditions in Turkey; if you criticize PKK and the Turkish state from an internationalist point of view, you not only face isolation, insults, and threats but physical attacks or "legal" harassment as well. That is why you can't possibly hear any opposing voice from Turkey... All those voices would be morally and personally condemned, publicly humiliated, labelled as "fascists" - by both Turkish and Kurdish sides!... PKK now enjoys a total success, a success it shares with the Turkish state, in completely isolating any possible criticism against nationalism, any possible defense of workers' class interests.

In that sense, it is not only opportunism to fight with PKK, but also a timid approval of nationalism (be it Turkish or Kurdish - does not really matter) over independent working class struggle. Those who support PKK should at least think twice when criticizing Cheka methods or state capitalism in general, otherwise they would fall into an anachronistic contradiction.

Marx-Trek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 6, 2014

Interesting input. I am wondering if there is any similarities or differences between the Kurdish PKK nationalism and IRA nationalism. What does the support for the PKK or YPG look like in the Kurdish areas. From reading about it, it looks to be a large political and militant force in Kurdistan.

So the EKS views the PKK And the Turkish state as two military powers supporting two different political and economic positions that are in opposition to one another and less like a Kurdish struggle for national liberation similar to Palestine, Ireland, and Chiapas (more in line with anarchist internationalist politics then the others though no less important)?

And also what about the seemingly anarchist and leftist feminists going to fight against ISIS?

mikail firtinaci

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 6, 2014

And also what about the seemingly anarchist and leftist feminists going to fight against ISIS?

There is no easy answer to that. Turkey has an extremely macho culture. The state, unions, and major political parties defend the continuation of most primitive patriarchal institutions. With the rise of AKP, daily violence towards women increased exponentially in a most grotesque form. That is why it is not difficult to understand especially those educated working class women's disgust and fear from political islam. In fact this is a main trend in Turkish politics: for instance, when AKP first came to power in 2002 there were "Flag Demonstrations" (headed mainly by secular nationalist kemalists) capitalizing on this, and older generation of educated women (working mainly in civil service and education sectors) headed those, fearing that islamists would exclude the women from the public life.

I think the particular structure of Turkish capitalism is the main cause of this strong patriarchal dominance. Turkish economy did relatively well for different reasons for the last decade. However, its "growth" hardly benefited working class/poor women. On the contrary, they remained at home, and carried the heaviest burden of the so-called economic recovery. Today women unemployment is about 70 to 75% of the total women labor force. However, this does not make any logical sense, since productivity of women labor has tremendously increased, when compared to the previous decades. There are more educated women and they are more openly willing to find jobs in the market. But the regime is politically benefiting from women's exclusion from the labor force, since it arbitrarily relieves the pressure on the men who are trying to find jobs. And to preserve this regime, women are more and more oppressed, subjected to a very severe form of domestic violence. It is almost like a form of primitive accumulation; by systematically destroying proletarian women psychologically and spiritually capitalist accumulation system preserves its political stability.

In that sense, anarchist or feminist women's hatred of ISIS -a horrible gang that exaggerates already existing patriarchal traditions in the region- is very understandable.

So the EKS views the PKK And the Turkish state as two military powers supporting two different political and economic positions that are in opposition to one another and less like a Kurdish struggle for national liberation similar to Palestine, Ireland, and Chiapas (more in line with anarchist internationalist politics then the others though no less important)?

EKS dissolved and the majority of its former member are currently in the ICC. However, I think all members of the former EKS would agree that PKK (even though it rejects the so-called rights of nations to self-determination now) is a Kurdish nationalist organization, similar to PLO, IRA, or EZLN. At the time we all thought that these were anti-working class organizations - and I still think the same.

From reading about it, it looks to be a large political and militant force in Kurdistan.

This is true. Usually, in most of the Kurdish regions PKK's legal wing receives about 50-60% of the votes in the elections, and the rest goes to the islamist AKP. However, what is interesting is, poor and working class Kurdish women tend to vote proportionately more for AKP than Kurdish nationalism. And there is an easy explanation for that: over the years AKP built a huge charity network in order to support the Kurdish patriarchal institutions. They regularly distribute coal, food, clothes to... families.

Serge Forward

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on October 6, 2014

Much as I see how problematic it is, anarchists being involved with the PKK, I don't think we should perceive the actions of these young comrades too negatively. Rightly or wrongly, it is entirely understandable that feminists would want to fight the ultra misoginist ISIL and that anarchists would also want to fight this ultra conservative quasi-fascist gang of psychopaths. If the leftist PKK is the only viable means of doing this and if they're not buying into the whole nationalist schtick, then I wouldn't be too harsh in my criticism. OK, it's not Spain 1936 and there is no revolution, but I would still tend towards generosity in viewing their actions. Mind you, I do worry for them as they are placing themselves in a dire situation.

Spikymike

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on October 6, 2014

mikail provides some background to support Serge's plea for a generous approach towards the move of some Turkish anarchists and feminists to join the Kurdish KPG military fight against ISIS but is their action ruled more by an understandable emotional response to human suffering close by (rather than much similar suffering further afield) than inteligence, and a misplaced trust in the liberatory value of recent democratic developments in Syrian Kurdistan? Moreover what practical benefit is this action to those remaining in Kobane, by what I assume to be a very small politically motivated Turkish group?

The political argument between mikail and ocelot on the other related thread comes to mind here also. Were Syrian Kurds in general in Koban right to stand and fight to defend their homes (whether they actually owned them or not) alongside the existing Kurdish political-military apparatus (that have their own seperate motives) rather than flee to Turkey, given that if they stayed they faced on the one hand ethnic cleansing and likely death in defeat and on the other if they fleed, ethnic cleansing and a life of sorts in exile!! Surely a practical matter in difficult circumstances not of their choosing, which only those Kurdish people on the ground could reasonably assess and decide rather than a matter of theoretical debate over 'abstract rights' and political principles we are in no position here to apply? As it happens though most it seemed decided best to flee! whilst others sought to cross the border in the opposite direction moitvated by a different assessment and presumably diferent motives?

A lot of questions not sure about some of the answers.

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on October 6, 2014

Jef I'm confused by your post:

jef costello

Kobane seems to form part of the Western Kurdistan mentioned here.
http://libcom.org/news/experiment-west-kurdistan-syrian-kurdistan-has-proved-people-can-make-changes-zaher-baher-2

Which puts the lie to the presentation of events there.

What part of it is a lie exactly? Are you referring to the 'experiment' collapsing due to the area falling to IS?

West Kurdistan which has basically signed a cynical pact with Assad?

I maybe being dense here, but what cynical pact? I thought the article you link to spoke of a sort of impasse in 'West Kurdistan', which could describe the state of affairs in much of Syria, with a weary array of rebel militia and the regime, which largely seems to be waiting to see what happens with IS before making any definitive manoeuvres. At least, this is the situation in Aleppo according to this doc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiyyWiO-IKY

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on October 6, 2014

As concerns the 'deployment' of Istanbul anarchists to Rojava, and indeed the growing number of anarchists across the world calling for the West to arm the Kurds (yes, really), I think people are correct to say that this is hot-headedness caused by high-running emotions, but I think there's another element here which needs to be teased out, which is the necessity to break with the ridiculous dichotomies that are presented by Western govts via the media outlets.

Post-2003, most 'humanitarian' interventions that I can remember haven't been justified so much with reasons why they should happen, but rather with extreme hypotheses as to why they can't not happen. Libya and Mali are two that spring to mind, and I think the current offensive against IS also counts. All 3 of these exercises have counted on the support of segments of The Left, and none of these countries have really benefited from Western intervention. Indeed, just about everyone apart from Tony Blair (now that Bush is a cod artist) seems agreed that the '03 campaign in Iraq was an unmitigated disaster which laid most of the material conditions for the current catastrophe, yet they seem to believe that more of the same disease will cure the patient's sickness, since to not bomb a hugely fragmented warzone would be madness - akin to condoning IS/Ansar Dine/Gadafi etc etc...

Faced with this false choice, it seems that many people have chosen what they consider to be the most reasonable (which includes mobilising to suffer a gruesome, public execution), but a more productive approach might be to reject the entire premise of the question - one that has been manipulated and pitched by a disingenuous and dishonest international ruling class, after all - and instead engage in some soul-searching and discourse on what can be done. My response to the facile question of "Well what do you suggest?" would probably be "Well, anything other than bombing them or dying in a foreign country. Let's start from there."

Wellclose Square

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Wellclose Square on October 6, 2014

I've found it difficult to relate to the unfolding tragedy of Kobane (not unique in the world, I know) other than in a predominantly emotional way. I appreciate Spiky's and Serge's more nuanced attempt to understand motivations beyond an abstract and principled, rational dismissal of all sides as equally bad. I just feel that those about to face the scimitar and the knife of triumphant takfiri - whether they chose to fight or were unable to get away in time (sometimes through infirmity) aren't well-served by cut-out-and-keep proletarian internationalist prescriptions of universal applicability. I keep thinking back to the heartbreaking picture of a man with Down's Syndrome, looking confused, being led by the hand across the border to Turkey by his elderly mother... I wonder what sort of future awaits them, driven from their home. For this reason alone (rather than any romantic attachments to the fiction of 'oppressed nations' deprived of a 'homeland') Mikail's prescription to people to run away "it is not their land" angered me. [Mikail, you don't have to respond to this by saying how bad you feel for the victims, I'm sure you do, I believe that].

No, I haven't got any answers. Only the utmost admiration for brave - if 'misguided' - people, facing those who I can't feel anything but the utmost hatred for.

mikail firtinaci

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 6, 2014

Wellclose;

No I am not going to say that; I am just going to say this: Originally most of the Rojava Kurds were forced to migrate to Rojava from Turkey and Iraq by the state(s). That is why Essad regime never recognized them as "citizens" and that is why they could not get any Syrian ID .. Home? There is a turkish saying: "Home is the place that you are fed and protected". The duty now is to enter into solidarity with the Kurdish proles who fled to Turkey, to make sure that as long as they stay this is their home.

Devrim

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Devrim on October 6, 2014

I think Mikail's comments about it not being their land have been really badly misinterpreted. He quite obviously meant that is not their country as in they don't own it, and they have no interest in dying on behalf of the people who are the owners, not it's not their land they should get off it now.

Devrim

mikail firtinaci

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 6, 2014

Thanks Devrim; I meant land in the capital "L" implying the nation. I thought the connotation was clear.

Of course all the Kurds in Rojava has a right to their land, in no way I am trying to deny that. Their homes and cities are rightfully theirs. Who can argue against that? However, I am just trying to say that no "Country" worth the life of a single proletarian. That is all. If the proletarian Kobane Kurds are in Turkey today, they rightfully own the land wherever they stand in Turkey, together with all the other proletarians in Turkey. Just because their homes were in Kobane before the civil war, does not mean that they are eternally bound to that place and they should either die there defending it or live as slaves in Turkey just because they want to survive.

Marx-Trek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 6, 2014

I may be mistaken but I am picking up a hint of anti-militarism that goes beyond state or quasi-state like institutions and organizations and is being further applied to fighting groups of people. This type of anti-militarism and pacifism seems to also suggest that a better option for people is to simply flee from the region or area in which a theistic ultra-conservative armed organization and social movement is taking over. I apologize if my assumptions of pacifism and anti-militarism are incorrect regarding this conversation.

From the conversation I am able to see a likeness in comparing the PKK to the PLO, organizations that fulfill a certain role of governance likened to that of traditional nation-state governments. Though I am confused about the statement that the IRA, EZLN, and say the PFLP are not working-class organizations. Now having said that, I do understand the point that the organizations themselves may not carry a true work-class socialist/anarchist/communist perspective and act out solely based on that perspective. Though I have a hard time understanding the need for such a hard political/theoretical line to be drawn in this case about leftists fighting ISIS and I find it harder to argue such a hard line when discussing the IRA (its various formations), EZLN, and the PFLP. I do understand that these groups are not purely anarchistic but I still fail to see the importance of such a purist political line.

(even in Spain 1936-39 or even the Bolshevik revolution the most popular and strongest anarchists or communist tendencies/grops/orgs/fighting forces that represented the "true" working-class perspective were still denied the ability to do something entirely on their own. Cooperation and coordination as still required during those times. I do not simply agree, even as an anarchist, that not reacting unless it the reasons to react and what would be in reaction to could only be anarchistic or purely working-class in itself. I think those perspectives certainly guide why something is happening; but even so in 2014 the term and category working-class is so broad yet the perspective is not. I see a likeness to fighting ISIS as I see in fighting fascism, ultra-conservatives, and christian fanatics in the West. Sure it is not necessarily a purely working-class activity for liberation from capitalism but all the theoretical justifications for fighting the right in the west seem to apply to fighting ISIS. The same goes for building up a working-class movement, if it is weak and extreme-reactionaries are able to take over then the working-class movement has already failed itself (so stated b Dauve).

Also, the same reasons why allies and cooperation between different groups exists seems to apply to the situation of fighting along side or with or in groups that are opposing such things. Anarchists tend to join other groups or ally themselves with such groups when there is a lacking anarchist/leftist group or movement to par take in because despite our theoretical conclusions and analysis the material world is still very much happening.

I still view the actions or attempts of DAF as very relevant and I support people making the individual decision to fight within the YPG or other left-leaning and left-nationalists fighting forces. Though such a conclusion does not square completely with anarchist principals-hose are just principals.

I also see these various secular and non-western democratic/pro-capitalists alternatives to fighting ISIS (and views like it) as a welcoming thing onto the world stage- finally there is not a monopoly on criticizing fanatical Islam. The world can no longer simply be divided up between the West and Islam.

Serge Forward

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on October 6, 2014

Marx-Trek, there is so much I disagree with in your last message, I really wouldn't know where to start.

baboon

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by baboon on October 6, 2014

I support mikhail's position and reflect the concern that some comrades above have in respect of Turkish anarchists fighting the advance of Isis alongside the nationalist PKK, a group, while not on the scale of Isis, has committed its own atrocities. This follows the so-called "Syrian anarchists", publicized by some on libcom, calling on workers to fight alongside the nationalist, US-backed Free Syrian Army, for a Syrian "revolution" that never even began and the AWU Ukrainian anarchists that supported democracy and Ukrainian imperialism.

Ocelot, on the ISIS thread, has supported this involvement in imperialist war under the need to fight "against fascism, racism and ethnic cleansing". The feeling to want to fight this particular gang of capitalists has been whipped up by the state here in Britain over the murder of an aid worker who was a particularly amiable character in order to support greater western intervention which will necessitate "boots on the ground". This will be yet another "humanitarian" war (forget Afghanistan and Iraq for the moment, just look at Libya) and a further slide into militarism and further instability and massacres.

Serge calls Isis ultra-conservative and quasi-fascist, which further reinforces the lure of anti-fascism for imperialist war. Owen Jones in the Guardian today makes the point about the town of Latifya just outside Baghdad:a town of horror and terror; 150,000 fled, summary executions on the street; civilians pulled out of cars and shot in the head; large scale abductions and so on. This is being done by government backed Shia militias showing their own brand of "...racism and ethnic cleansing". This is why so many Sunni civilians have fallen into the embrace of Isis - they see it as the "lesser evil".

It goes without saying that I'm not underestimating the particular brutality of Isis - see link below. It's brutality is one of its biggest selling points to the "international brigade" of jihadis that are flocking to the group - young women as well as young men. Isis hasn't fallen out of the sky or just a group of "evil psychopaths". It is a construction of imperialism from the major imperialisms who fed it both directly and indirectly and the local imperialist states, Iran, Turkey, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Kuwait. And if you're response is based on an "atrocity scale" then look no further than the armies of the US and Britain for a historical top billing. But the anti-fascist lure is always accompanied by the defense of democracy and nationalism.

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201409/10303/iraq-islamic-state-product-decomposing-world-order

Marx-Trek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 6, 2014

Though Serge's post about ISIS being ultra-conservative and mine my differ. But on that point, I do not agree that looking and giving some rhetorical support to groups in the area fighting against ISIS as an "anti-fascist support for imperialist war". I think that is too broad a brush to be painting with.

Serge try. Perhaps you dont agree with me on about the purist-anarchist critique?

Marx-Trek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 6, 2014

Though this discussion now seems moot since it is now being reported by Ireland WSA that ISIS has all but taken Kobane and the fighters against ISIS have resorted to suicide attacks.

And from those reports the Turkish forces seem to have waited till the last moment prior to guarding Turkish interests on the backs of Kurds.

kuti

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kuti on October 7, 2014

i'm an anarchist from southern part of asia, and ready to fight weth PYD, YPJ ...if i can reach Rojava....if there's a call from international brigade, count me in..

solidarity...

kuti

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kuti on October 7, 2014

From DAF - Last situation; ISIS is so near in Kobanê. The clashes got increased with ISIS. Now everywhere is Turkey and Kurdistan people are going to the streets... I am sending you the link from anarşi haber (anarchist news) for pictures; https://www.facebook.com/anarsihaber?fref=ts

Wellclose Square

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Wellclose Square on October 7, 2014

I'm seeing reports that there are elderly civilians in Kobane too infirm to leave. I doubt the ISIS fukrs will show them any mercy. Common humanity.

Gepetto

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gepetto on October 7, 2014

kuti

i'm an anarchist from southern part of asia, and ready to fight weth PYD, YPJ ...if i can reach Rojava....if there's a call from international brigade, count me in..

solidarity...

Ask on Revleft, they talk about forming new International Brigades every time there's an internal conflict in the world.

(But seriously, please reconsider what you wrote. Do you really think it's a good idea?)

Gepetto

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gepetto on October 7, 2014

Marx-Trek

Though I have a hard time understanding the need for such a hard political/theoretical line to be drawn in this case about leftists fighting ISIS and I find it harder to argue such a hard line when discussing the IRA (its various formations), EZLN, and the PFLP. I do understand that these groups are not purely anarchistic but I still fail to see the importance of such a purist political line.

God why IRA

Why

akai

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on October 7, 2014

Thanks Mikail for your comments.

And I really hope that people will also pay attention to the plight of the refugees.

akai

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on October 7, 2014

About "international brigades", I think Kuti, you'd better research stuff more. Look at this nonsense in Ukraine, with "anti-fascists" fighting alongside fascists. I get the feeling that maybe some people are just looking for a fight.... but not knowing all the facts, or thinking it through. I was guilty of it myself at one point and just happy I didn't get myself killed.

kurekmurek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 7, 2014

I had discussed this issue in another mail list already: But this news at best appears to be partially true.
The event described is this (use google translate please) :
http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/istanbuldan_sinira_giden_grup_kobaniye_gecti-1215028
http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/yuzlerce_kisi_sinir_tellerini_yikip_kobaniye_gecti-1215076
(This one even mentions people wished to go back from the border to Turkey after an hour )
http://m.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/kobaniye_gecenler_geri_alindi-1215116
(This news says the group is accepted back in Turkey later that night)

It is very doubtful that DAF joined the fight (as an organization alongside with PYD) Their website does not mention it (though it might be due to legal stuff). The event described in the news (passing the border from Turkey to autonomous region) just proves they involved in an action to protest against Turkey’s policy of not supporting Syrian Kurds by blocking the border gates to regions controlled by Kurds in Syria. (Turkey is also known to support Islamic State secretly)

The protest mentioned in the article is visible. It is mostly about making a political point and symbolically showing support. Turkish left also participates in such acts. There are journalistic reports of “real” crossing of border to fight. However the point is they happen much more discreetly. As it appears that there are ways to do it known by Kurds in the area (and possibly used by Kurdish Guerillas as well.) See this one:
http://m.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/bes_dakikada_isidle_savasa-1214724
(its title says: Going to fight ISIS in 5 minutes)

So I think anarchists are only involved in fight symbolically at this point, especially in level of organization. This news is mostly a propaganda article I guess and does not represent any meaningful real participation of Turkish anarchists in actual fight.
(Sorry for long post)

Marx-Trek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 7, 2014

From what I can surmise from the Ireland Workers Solidarity Facebook page ( https://www.facebook.com/WorkersSolidarityMovement ), DAF is involved in border "actions" or organizing and as well as fighting in Kobane. There is also a post about anarcha-feminists/radical feminists joing up with YPG in fighint ISIS. The Ireland WS page reported this morning that Kobane has yet fallen to ISIS. Ireland's site has links. And the Middle Eastern Feminist has updates as wel: https://www.facebook.com/themiddleeasternfeminist

Whats the problem with discussing similarities or an attempt to get some perspective on what is going on in Kurdistan and drawing conclusions from comparisons with the IRA. I think the IRA and other groups that have left leaning or left leaning national liberation tendencies are relevant in the context of understanding, or attempting to understand, another region and political landscape in the world ( I am attempting to get context and perspective). Though the criticism of the IRA, whether valid or relevant, that is another discussion for itself.

Marx-Trek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 7, 2014

Report about Airstrikes against ISIS in Kobane: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/10/coalition-air-strikes-target-isil-kobane-201410793345573285.html

kurekmurek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 7, 2014

I also wish to comment on the discussion going on:
1) Except in a very abstract (for example: power) analysis level, ISIS and YPG can never be seen as same things for anarchists (or libertarian communists). Failing to differentiate these two, shows lack of political insight in the actual fight going on. Let’s not forget ideology cannot replace the political analysis and action itself.
2) I am familiar with the example of authoritarianism of (some militants of) PKK given by mikail firtinaci and it is a true and sad event. Unfortunately this kind of political bullying is not unfamiliar to Turkish or Kurdish leftist groups (including the anarchists) (for example: we even have an event of a pacifist conscientious objector getting stabbed with a knife by an anarchist organization, true story ) However I hope international communists could get beyond that individual event and develop a much more nuanced relation to Kurdish movement.
3) I think Marx-Trek’s point on making a comparison is important. Everyone should think them at least in relation to other struggles of oppressed populations that are going on in the world right now.
4) As far as I know Kobane is not still taken by ISIS. However ISIS entered Kobane and there is street fighting in the peripheries of the city.

kurekmurek

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 7, 2014

Marx-Trek, yeah I checked the posts. The anarcha-feminist group is part of DAF so it is kind of same thing. However I maintain my point all these actions are rather symbolic acts of showing support (as a lot of the leftists do now in different parts of Turkey) I think the way this news is made does not represent the reality of the situation and anarchist involvement in it truthfully.
However it does not mean I ignore or condemn the involvement of DAF.

kuti

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kuti on October 8, 2014

Well, we don't have to go to Rojava, finally ISIS come to you :D...still in pacifist mode :D

Islamists´ holy war arrives in Germany: New clashes with Ezidis

http://ezidipress.com/en/islamists-holy-war-arrives-in-germany-new-clashes-with-ezidis/

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 8, 2014

kurremkarmerruk, thanks for the update and info on the anarcha-fems and DAF being the pretty much the same group, or saying that the feminists are joining with DAF and other leftist activists at the boarder to protest/riot/and offer care to people fleeing or dealing with ISIS on the door steps of Kobane.

Of course I agree with your agreement, that we have to look deeper into the actual material conditions and what is happening within the larger Kurdish struggle and the various political orgs and actions happening or flowing therefrom. I am still very interested in seeing this type of resistance against islamic religious fanatics because it actually opens up material options and clarifies to the world that there is more going on beside West vs. Islam. I still maintain that people deciding to join and fight with YPG and other groups is understandable and that the political critique of such an act is not all that interesting. The same goes for solidarity actions from DAF and other leftists in the region (or the world for that matter).

It will be interesting to see what type of reaction will come from self-proclaimed European ISIS making themselves visible. I wonder what type or reaction will come from the autonomous-left.

Shorty

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Shorty on October 8, 2014

Anti-fascists in Berlin are buying weapons for the YPG. :eek:

http://arab.blogsport.de/2014/10/03/spendenkampagne-waffen-fuer-die-ypgypj/

Serge Forward

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on October 8, 2014

Where's the emoticon for 'sigh... for fuck's sake'?

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

Yeah about weapons issue: YPG states that Turkey (or any other country) should give them heavy weapons if they want to help and nothing else basically. They say we are fighting with ISIS, however we lack the weapons like armored vehicles, long range weapons etc… The problem is that although we fight with courage we are limited in what we can do with the current weapons we have. We cant reply back so we can’t destroy their big weapons. So basically, nobody helped on this issue, situation got worse day by day. Salih Muslim said: “our resistance is currently poetic and romantic but it is ineffective, we need guns”. (I can find the quote in Turkish if anybody wants)

So basically the situation in Kobane comes down to this: As you know Kobane is isolated and not connected to other Kurdish cantons and it is surrounded by ISIS every way, except the Turkish border. Turkey placed its army (mostly heavy weapons, armored vehicles, long range weapons) alongside the border, but does not interfere. Turkey says we only allow humanitarian aid to pass the border. That might be happening I am not sure. Bu the thing is it is not what is needed at all. Because without bigger guns Kobane will eventually lose and propably more than 15 000 people currently occupying the place will face very bad conditions. Not because of lack of human power, because of lack of efficient weapons. I assume they have (possibly old) automatic weapons etc… as they are easy to acquire and Kurdish Guerillas etc already have them. There were also pictures of their home-made armored vehicles (like modern day Tachankas  ). But nothing really professional.

The campaign to arm Kurdish forces might be a way to support and solve this problem but again it could not solve the problem I guess, as it would be pretty hard to buy such big weapons needed I guess. So still a help from an “capitalist” country for Kobane seems to be needed for strategic reasons. I do not think nobody can blame them on this. As we are leaving in a 21th Century the war machinery already pretty much replaced the romantic picture of a war and I do not think people who fight a war certainly realize it, maybe much more than we do.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

By the way on the bright side, YPG made a statement saying that last night's bombing of ISIS targets by anti-ISIS coalition was exceptionally good. It stopped the advance of ISIS completely for now. (Here is Turkish link: http://www.radikal.com.tr/dunya/ypg_hava_operasyonlari_ise_yaradi_isidin_ilerleyisi_durdu-1217506)

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on October 8, 2014

I find it absolutely amazing that the logic of 'anti-imperialism' leads to people supporting/cheerleading US-led air strikes.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

Caiman del Barrio

I find it absolutely amazing that the logic of 'anti-imperialism' leads to people supporting/cheerleading US-led air strikes.

Sorry but what logic of "anti-imperialism" are you talking about? Imperialism of US? Turkey? ISIS? what do you mean by that? How do you know that: that particular logic is dominant force for support for Kurds? (I think you might be getting the people's motivation to support Kurdish Autonomy quite wrongly, but please explain so we can discuss it?)

Who is cheerleading US led air-strikes? Is reporting them cheerleading? Is reporting a fact (that it blocked ISIS at least temporarily mean) in a positive way (it really stopped ISIS for now) means the reporter is completely ignorant of the motivations of advanced capitalist countries all together?

By he way I wonder what people think of CNT's desperate need of guns during the Spanish civil war? As far as I know there were international movement to arm "republicans" against Fascists taking power in Spain. People held actions to encourage their "capitalist" nonetheless non-fascist governments to give arms to Republicans fighting in the front line. I guess it did not realized its goals but if it could maybe it could help in the war. Would it be then considered as a "cooperating with capitalist countries"? Maybe we would hate Spanish anarchism if it would take these arms and use them against fascists and maybe ensuring their survival and establishing another form of modern society? If that would be case maybe we could blame them like "I find it absolutely amazing that the logic of 'anti-capitalism' leads to people supporting/cheerleading capitalist countries arming them against fascism".

Anyway the point is of course anti-ISIS coalition does not care about Kurdish Autonomy (they even admit it today by saying that our priority is securing the petrol sites [so hindering ISIS's economic power] ) Unfortunately, restating obvious theoretical truths does not help understanding politics and current struggle that has (at least) the possibility to end the bloodbath going on in the region (including the neighboring countries) in much more libertarian and social way then any of the big powers wish to do.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

It is not as hot as the link :D but you can also watch to learn more about Kurdish Women's movement: http://vimeo.com/107639261 (the video is very basic actually, it represents well [I think] a regular [women] member of Kurdish struggle, so it can be informative if you do not have much first hand account of their "logic" :D )

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on October 8, 2014

kurremkarmerruk

Caiman del Barrio

I find it absolutely amazing that the logic of 'anti-imperialism' leads to people supporting/cheerleading US-led air strikes.

Sorry but what logic of "anti-imperialism" are you talking about? Imperialism of US? Turkey?

Quite! I'm indicating my lack of faith in 'anti-imperialist' narratives, which generally pinpoints US imperialism and that of its allies (eg Turkey).

How do you know that: that particular logic is dominant force for support for Kurds? (I think you might be getting the people's motivation to support Kurdish Autonomy quite wrongly, but please explain so we can discuss it?)

Who is cheerleading US led air-strikes? Is reporting them cheerleading?

I'm referring to UK anarchists and, apparently, various Turkish and German ones too. There are even folk on Libcom indicating their 'support' (which effectively means cheerleading in real terms) for YPG, and by extension, Kurdistan.

By he way I wonder what people think of CNT's desperate need of guns during the Spanish civil war? As far as I know there were international movement to arm "republicans" against Fascists taking power in Spain. People held actions to encourage their "capitalist" nonetheless non-fascist governments to give arms to Republicans fighting in the front line. I guess it did not realized its goals but if it could maybe it could help in the war. Would it be then considered as a "cooperating with capitalist countries"? Maybe we would hate Spanish anarchism if it would take these arms and use them against fascists and maybe ensuring their survival and establishing another form of modern society? If that would be case maybe we could blame them like "I find it absolutely amazing that the logic of 'anti-capitalism' leads to people supporting/cheerleading capitalist countries arming them against fascism".

Yes, well, people have and do still say that. I'm not sure what is to be gained from decontextualising something like the Spanish Civil War though: it happened nearly 80 years ago and was incredibly formative in terms of the development of anarchist praxis (although perhaps not sufficiently, considering current events). It was different for cenetistas and other revolutionaries then, they didn't have the lessons and history that we have now, and that can partially explain why they made so many catastrophic mistakes. The logic of supporting a capitalist country as a bulwark against fascism is self-evidently flawed: any regime can swing towards the far right when it suits them, fascism is a far greater phenomenon that official 'fascist' parties. You can find fascistic traits in most contemporary Western 'democracies' if you look hard enough, so to employ them as anti-fascist allies is patently ridiculous.

AES

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by AES on October 8, 2014

Excellent post Caiman

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

Ok, I wont quote but just number my responses:

1) I mean if you say people support due to Anti-imperialist reasons yeah you are right it is very weak argument (not totally bad though, on this issue I do not wish to be judgemental much) But the point is as i tried to indicate my last sentence: Kurdish Autonomy Movement means something bigger and better than anything currently in existence in the region. That issue nobody should miss. Their anti-patriarchalism, their pricnicples of direct democracy and confederalism is a huge thing. Especially if you compare it to Assad Dictatorship, ISIS fundamentalism or arabic nationalisit free syria army. It is a project far beyond democracies of late capitalist countries. So even if there could be slight chance that might work it could might have an effect on libertarian left in that region. That's really important.

2) I know nobody believes in this but YPG only uses the name Kurdistan to mean a place now they even do not use it as the name of their region (ıts called Rojava) (please check the video I linked above) However I guess I will not be able to persuade anyone on how Kurds offer a project that is very multicultural and open in nature. so I will just skip this and hope that time will settle it for me :D

3) I really do not understand your comment on Spanish anarchism. On the one hand you say it was formative on the other you say it was not. You mean what mistakes? You know what better than them now? I really do not get your position. Anyway you are making the mistake of replacing an actual political question (how to win a war and achieve revolution when the all the odds are against you) with a ideological one (it is bad to side with capitalist state, as they can switch from fascism to democracy at will, and hey all democracies are flawed so to hell with them all...) I think this is totally wrong approach. I really want to learn what history teach you to win an actual civil war? Do you know it better than them now? Do you think you could do it better than them? I think such knowledge can not be had, it is shaped in the actual political process.

mikail firtinaci

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 8, 2014

-Necessary edit-:

A few notes on the argument that PKK is secular and, hence it must be defended. I don't agree that is enough reason to defend it, but even if we for once assume that it was, then those questions remains to be explained:

1- PKK, with the call of Ocalan convened a "Congress of Islam" last year. Ocalan claimed back then that "we had to imitate Mohammed" etc. playing to the islamist sentiments of the government and the reactionary forces in the region.

2- PKK's legal wing, HDP invited islamist reactionaries to the party. Altan Tan a Kurdish nationalist islamist is a member of HDP parliamentary group now. So basically, HDP claims that it unites all "Kurdish forces" islamist or secular...

3- PKK collaborated with FSA which includes islamist groups, supported by the very reactionary Turkish government that you rightly criticize.

This list goes on forever... It is completely wrong to assume that PKK is a "secular" force. PKK is essentially an opportunistic bourgeois nationalist force. If it benefits PKK, tomorrow its leaders can as easily claim that "Islam is progressive," and so on... Today PKK poses as "secular" simply because it wants to play into the rising anti-Islam, racist sentiments in the west.

In fact, it is quite dishonest to give half broken weapons to a bunch of young girls aged 16 or 17 and to send them to the front to die at the hand of ISIS brutes, just to send some PR messages to the West... In Middle East, as elsewhere, it is the international working class who can really stop islamist sectarianism and not the unprincipled, machivellian nationalism of PKK.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

I am in a demo for kobane just now so i will reply later. But devrim you just jump from subject. Please show me where i said i support it because it is secular? I never based my argument on that.

mikail firtinaci

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 8, 2014

Opps sorry Kurremkarmekuk. I think someone else wrote that in a previous post. I confused it with yours. I edited my post above, but I still would like to read your thoughts about this question.

Wellclose Square

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Wellclose Square on October 8, 2014

"In Middle East, as elsewhere, it is the international working class who can really stop islamist sectarianism and not the unprincipled, machivellian nationalism of PKK."

Agreed, Mikail. Sorry I misunderstood your comment about 'the land does not belong to them'.

All told, though, I think we're all fucked. Globally. Personally, I'm stepping back from everything, giving up on it all. Sorry for muddying the waters by appearing to waver on hard-learned principles won by the class. I think the nihilist communists are correct. Need to demobilise. The straws in the wind that activists clutch for - from Cairo, to Ferguson, to Hong Kong - are just that. No more.

Auld-bod

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Auld-bod on October 8, 2014

Wellclose, sounds like you badly need a holiday. Politics is not life, it just helps give meaning to it. Have a break.

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on October 8, 2014

kurremkarmerruk

Ok, I wont quote but just number my responses:

1) I mean if you say people support due to Anti-imperialist reasons yeah you are right it is very weak argument (not totally bad though, on this issue I do not wish to be judgemental much) But the point is as i tried to indicate my last sentence: Kurdish Autonomy Movement means something bigger and better than anything currently in existence in the region. That issue nobody should miss. Their anti-patriarchalism, their pricnicples of direct democracy and confederalism is a huge thing. Especially if you compare it to Assad Dictatorship, ISIS fundamentalism or arabic nationalisit free syria army. It is a project far beyond democracies of late capitalist countries. So even if there could be slight chance that might work it could might have an effect on libertarian left in that region. That's really important.

On the 'revolutionary'/liberatory/emancipatory value of the PKK, I'd refer you to previous discussions that have happened on here eg the comments below http://libcom.org/news/experiment-west-kurdistan-syrian-kurdistan-has-proved-people-can-make-changes-zaher-baher-2?page=1. I'm personally pretty sceptical about the gender politics: although of course I salute the bravery and courage of the female fighters, it seems like the PKK hierarchy are keen on recruiting female comrades as sex slaves 'for the revolution' (there's a quote of text on this within the discussion comments in the above link).

2) I know nobody believes in this but YPG only uses the name Kurdistan to mean a place now they even do not use it as the name of their region (ıts called Rojava) (please check the video I linked above) However I guess I will not be able to persuade anyone on how Kurds offer a project that is very multicultural and open in nature. so I will just skip this and hope that time will settle it for me :D

Well, yes, if you establish a Marxist-Leninist guerrilla organisation and you use terrorism and indiscriminate violence against civilians, then people may doubt your integrity. It's gonna take more than some nice words from Ocalan in a prison cell to convince the world that the PKK have definitively changed. Nothing would make me happier if that were the case, but I think we need to be sceptical.

3) I really do not understand your comment on Spanish anarchism. On the one hand you say it was formative on the other you say it was not. You mean what mistakes? You know what better than them now? I really do not get your position.

I mean, it was formative in terms of what they achieved and what they didn't achieve cos of the errors they made (eg compromising with the Generalitat, focusing on the anti-fascist struggle to the detriment of the revolution, not anticipating the Stalinist threat, etc). If we don't and can't learn from the experiences of Spain '36, then there really is no point in your mentioning it.

Anyway you are making the mistake of replacing an actual political question (how to win a war and achieve revolution when the all the odds are against you) with a ideological one (it is bad to side with capitalist state, as they can switch from fascism to democracy at will, and hey all democracies are flawed so to hell with them all...) I think this is totally wrong approach.

Well, my question to you is what war do you want to win and who do you want to win it? I mean, the Iraqi/Syrian Civil War is terrifyingly bloody and horrific - further from its conclusion that it probably ever has been - and, even then, it would require a really rigid level of control for the eventual victors to not exact revenge. How do you foresee an independent/'autonomous' Kurdish region accommodating its minorities or treating, eg, IS/Sunni or regime/Alawi prisoners, after so much hatred, blood and atrocities have been committed? How do you foresee the US-led coalition's role in a post-war Syria/Iraq (or whatever replaces them)? Do you honestly think they'll just bomb the bad guys and then fuck off and leave everyone alone? Have they ever done that? In fact, have US bombs ever led to peace?

I really want to learn what history teach you to win an actual civil war?

Well, part of the problem is the notion in and of itself of a civil war, which denotes a war within one nation state. Of course, the situation in Syria is now more complicated than a civil war, since IS are technically fighting on 4-5 different fronts against different groups over two countries, but the battle is still for the reins of a nation state (in IS' case, presumably the 'state' would be an Islamic caliphate which extends across as many national borders as possible, destroying them in the process...making them some sort of Islamo-Trotskyists or something ;) ). The point is not to 'save' the nation state, but rather to remove it via a revolution, which is why people on here critique the 'nationalism' of FSA etc. So, we say no war but the class war for a reason, since we don't believe human life is worth sacrificing for the restoration of an oppressive, unfree nation state.

Do you know it better than them now? Do you think you could do it better than them? I think such knowledge can not be had, it is shaped in the actual political process.

Yes it is, and I think it's pretty churlish of some people to cast aspersions on the fighters in Kobane or anywhere else. It seems like a reasonable response to take up arms some mad nutjob religious fundamentalists showing up in your manor to steal your home, kill the men and abduct the women as sex slaves. I think Mikhail would have a hard time convincing Kurds that they should abandon their property, their livestock and their possessions instead of joining the armed resistance. Being 'right' is sometimes not the most important thing.

Godless

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Godless on October 8, 2014

I am going to say one thing and one thing only: Marx Trek is right to support anarchists and YPG-YPJ fighters protecting the people against ISIS. If you had bothered to read an official statement published by the YPG earlier, you would know that there were still civilians present and so the anarchists have every need to take up armed resistance. Or shall we believe that everyone (apart from anarchists because obviously we're all ideologically infallible and would never do anything for the purpose of propaganda) are liars?

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 8, 2014

I think the WWII era Comintern "anti-fascist" support for Capitalist aggression and the supporting US-led airstrikes under the guise of "anti-imperialism" or suggesting passive support of a humane imperialism is no longer all that relevant due to it being 2014. Large economic shifts have occurred since these old leftist arguments and ultra-left critiques (though historically valid) and the global and local political landscapes have significantly changed, shifted , or been degraded.

I think there is a lingering problem present within this more historical leftist view that if the US or any capitalist actor is involved then all is lost and cannot be supported. This logic blocks anyone's ability to support something on the ground for different economic and political reasons, opposite of the capitalist or US logic of support, whether or not the US is leading airstrikes or not.

Regardless of US airstrikes or not, it is very interesting to see such resistance to a local and regional social-political-economic problem such as ISIS (the threat of ISIS halting "progress", for lack of a better word, anarchist progress, or whatever anti-capitalist & anti-statist progress you wish to call it); such resistance is important.

To put it plainly, I no longer buy the argument that just because the US had led airstrikes against ISIS that action itself is bad or anything within the realm of that action is bad. This argument all but shuts down agency of any other political actor and in effect makes us all powerless to act.

Instead, I see the emergence of another option or another political current flowing forward. The breakup of the region and the creation of a necessity to fight and an opportunity to possible create something different is very exciting. The idea of counter-power, subjective and objective conditions beginning to meet, or the building of revolution/insurrection/etc....may be present and should be pushed and supported. Though I admit the guarantee of success, the failure of such political emergence, or even blatant betrayal of such an emergence is always possible.

There is more going on and more interesting players involved than just the US. The US's interests are not the point of interest - in fact the opposite is the point. US and ISIS a double edged sword, I instead am interested in the 3,4,5,6th actors and their interests or possibility of changing interests. And, the existence of left wing groups and armed people's defense and that anarchists in the region are willingly and wantonly partaking in some fashion is very interesting and encouraging for a new emergence.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

Caiman del Barrio:

1)

I salute the bravery and courage of the female fighters, it seems like the PKK hierarchy are keen on recruiting female comrades as sex slaves 'for the revolution'

This is just bullshit. Come on. This is Turkish state propaganda and if you even cannot get how artificial and made up this is I really think you have no idea what was said about any revolutionary movement by its political rival groups and status quo. I am really amused by your capacity to humiliate Kurdish women by assuming that they are just stupid people. So they even don't know they are used. It is even insulting to reply back to this. Yeah Caiman del Barrio only you know what is revolution, political action etc... and rest (especially the Kurdish women I guess) are just mindless zombies ordered to do stuff. Maybe you could save them as obviously they lack capacity to think for themselves.

2) You can be skeptical as much as you want however the problem is that people in Kobane has no time for that they are stuck because of their bravery to establish an autonomous zone and other the region a freer alternative and not a some sort of dictatorship. And because of that they are now attacked by Islamic State while whole the world does not give a shit. So take your time man no worries... We can always make heroes and reaffirm our political identities after everything is finished.

3)

If we don't and can't learn from the experiences of Spain '36, then there really is no point in your mentioning it.

Yeah lets learn from it. What did you learnt? Why it failed you think? Do you think they lost because they were unaware of communist threat? Or because they participated in government? I really don't get what you wish to achieve by discussing this? (I think it will not help you at all: because hard cold fact is a war is a war, you lose it if you have not enough military power.) (By the way I mentioned it to show that this problem of war, the need for supply from countries that are not directly involved etc are always needed. So we should rethink before condemning the Kurds in fight to being cooperative)

4) Yeah what do you want to win? What you don't? But since you think women fighters are stupid sex slaves it is comical to discuss. If you did watched the video I shared you would see women organize separate from Kurdish movement and elect a co-leader for every position (I underlay every, from each canton's government leader to military positions) And you think probably this all the same with ISIS. Maybe their Syria would be so much better every man will have to buy his wife a flower each day?
Also in the same video she mentions they employ quotas in Canton communities to achieve equal participation of every ethnicity, from Arabs to others. But I guess it is also totally meaningless for example FSA with its Arab nationalism will embrace Kurds just as well and possibly they do not plan to write a constitution based on Arab nationality I guess. Yeah yeah I am sure whoever wins everything will be so bad or so good nothing is really important in this fight i guess...
Maybe you should also take a vacation with this nihilistic communist guy? :D Maybe you could visit Kobane after the war to see how nice now after the Kurd's autonomous uprising is crashed.

5)

So, we say no war but the class war for a reason, since we don't believe human life is worth sacrificing for the restoration of an oppressive, unfree nation state.

So I guess there are two forms of societies? One is unfree nation state and other totally free and fine communist state. How I never thought of that? You westerners are really intelligent maybe I should go tell this to Fighters in Kobane? Nobody heard about it for sure. By the way you should also please try to organize class organization after Kurds in Syria, with Assad, ISIS or FSA I guess it will be fun.

6) I think it would be meaningless to point about the international potential of a Bookchinian model in Syria. As you think it is something only national no matter what they say. How (maybe) it could show the power of anarchist principles compared to capitalist modernization, Islamic fundamentalism etc, dictatorships etc... and how could have effect beyond neighboring countries and movements in them.

7)

Yes it is, and I think it's pretty churlish of some people to cast aspersions on the fighters in Kobane or anywhere else. It seems like a reasonable response to take up arms some mad nutjob religious fundamentalists showing up in your manor to steal your home, kill the men and abduct the women as sex slaves. I think Mikhail would have a hard time convincing Kurds that they should abandon their property, their livestock and their possessions instead of joining the armed resistance. Being 'right' is sometimes not the most important thing.

What what WHAT?.. what do you mean you saying Mikhail coming to Kobane to say people lets give up the arms and give up our livestock?? What imaginary world you live in? What kind of phantasy is that? So you think they need a Turkish guy to teach them how to be a proper communist (and not a stupid Bookchinian) Maybe he can even show some heroic communist skills in gunfighting by“fragging” some jihadists. You know he could pull some magic international communist shots from his AK-47. :D (Maybe he can do it from where he is now as it would be much more international) Then maybe Mikhail could free them from their capitalist class and divide everything to everyone: D This is just comical. It is sad that you think so much about Syria but know so little.

(Unfortunately Caiman del Barrio I really can’t reply back to your post. But please clarify one thing for me? You really think that it would be mostly the same whether the Kurdish autonomous region somehow prevails (or even extends its model to Syria) or ISIS, FSA or Assad wins? Do you think the resulting Syria would be same for you? What do you think would it be same for women or for future politically progressive developments or movements? Other do you also think the same? )

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

Yeah by the way did anyone say that there is no civilians now in the area? It is wrong there is more than 10 thousand people still there, some of are still civil some of them just take arms not to be slaughtered or moved out of their homes. If the ISIS takes Kobane it would be a massacre.

However I still think regardless of "civilians" what everyone should really is the potential that could generate if somehow the Syrian Autonomous regions persist and continue realizing Bookchinian ideas. I think the focus (of this political discussion) should be more on this.

Mark.

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on October 8, 2014

kurremkarmerruk

You really think that it would be mostly the same whether the Kurdish autonomous region somehow prevails (or even extends its model to Syria) or ISIS, FSA or Assad wins? Do you think the resulting Syria would be same for you? What do you think would it be same for women or for future politically progressive developments or movements? Other do you also think the same? )

I'm only following the discussion, not really taking part, but as the question is being asked I'd say it wouldn't be the same. I'd be interested to hear any arguments that it would be.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

Mikhail:

Is this your opinion on this issue?

Today PKK poses as "secular" simply because it wants to play into the rising anti-Islam, racist sentiments in the west.

1) I think the opposite: Back then as there is a neoliberal Islamist government and it play the card of islam to reintegrate Kurds to Turkish capitalism (I guess we agree on this) and Ocalan (not PKK really) and HDK (the legal part) tried to answer it by saying "we are not anti-Islam as you can see from the congress" (more on this continues below)

2) HDK is designed as a congress to make a platform from every group, especially the Turkish ones from Stalinist parties (most of the left parties in Turkey sympathizes with Stalin (or Mao), except Kurds) to civil societies, from LGBTQ organizations to well all forms of ethnic and religious groups. You know to make the legal side of the movement more strong. Yeah Altan Tan (an Islamist Kurd [but NOT the only Islamist Kurd there are different forms of this ideology]) However I underline HDK is not an Islamist or Kurdish it is much bigger than that (more on this also below)

I think the complex situation can be shown by an example: For example Altan Tan you know what he thinks of the Islamic congress? He should very happy with it right? No not at all he did not even attend to it (go check it) Because if you look at the reports of the Islamic congress It was designed to support the new movement "anti-capitalist muslims" (not the movement I guess but ideology) The speakers etc were from anti-capitalist muslim thinkers (the most important one was Ihsan Eliacik a Turkish interpreter of islam following the way of Ali Seriati) and Islamic congress is not such action for example there were civil Friday prays these were all political mobilisations of masses for rights for ethnic minorities, social justice and confederal government. And no surprise Altan Tan is currently not happy with HDK (and its party now HDP) he claims it is being a marginal leftist organization. (please also check this out, there is an interview made with him)

You see: the "insturment" is there if you pull it to libertarian/secular/social side PKK will not definitely stop you. However it is meaningless to say you must be secular in a sense that you should not even say anything at all about religion, as it might lose power to Kurdish movement. (Especially if we just say this from outside just as a non-living abstract principle) However currently I see no sign in Kurdish movement (I mean the civil side, for Guerrillas it is even absurd to discuss) for counter revolutionary form of Islam becoming dominant. Though of course like Turks, Kurds have high religious commitments in Turkey. And I think Kurdish movement represents the best possible way (in real politic sense) to direct this to a libertarian and social justice causes.

3) I really don't know it very well. what form of collaboration you mean? I thought they were mostly criticized for being sided with Assad against FSA. (as now they do not attack Assad) However I know that they are not given a seat in FSA congress (I forget where it was held but in western country) due to them not accepting to give up their project of Autonomy. Also it is again Turkey's wish (and demand to help them now) they give up autonomy and be part of FSA against Assad. I think these examples show they do not put religion over their democratic ideals (and unfortunately this cost them being alone and helpless in region)

However my main point is that they are giving a war to survive in this hard environment surrounded by very counter revolutionary forces. They do and had to make strategic political moves otherwise they would be wiped out. (so we should not judge them on every act by a sword of political correctness, if it is not a total redirection of ideological principles)

4) No list does not goes on forever, it ends in 3 :D (sorry couldn't help myself) but after that you also make some generalizations: on first one: I think I illustrated enough to show that Kurdish movement is not Islamic. It utilizes it, it does not close its doors to it if that current form of Islam has some sort of compatible goal. but there is no sign that kurdish movement just get lost in Islamism.

5)

In fact, it is quite dishonest to give half broken weapons to a bunch of young girls aged 16 or 17 and to send them to the front to die at the hand of ISIS brutes, just to send some PR messages to the West...

no please dont say that, do not victimize women fighters again. Why nobody comprehends that PKK is not a state and it does not "draft" people. People go there voluntarily. People fight there with "bad" weapons not because they are stupid morons or sex slaves or romantics etc. They go there and fight because to have establish a better future. And if this requires war than so be it. They are not PR. What you are saying is just conspiracy to blame Kurdish movement.

There are very good books on kurdish cildren youth and women (in Turkish) full of stories, how little kurdish children saw many pictures of young people in their home's living room and ask for their parents to find out who they are they are their brothers and sisters killed by Turkish forces years ago. moreover learn their names as are the same, families giving the name of the ex-sister to younger sister to make the name live again. however families mostly try to hide this events from their children not to encourage them to join PKK or attend the protests at all. however it is of course find out by child as he learns the world and this happens quite early in these harsh conditions and how they become traumatized by this. and how they go to mountains and take the risk for no other children to die again.

Anyway you should read them (I say this not in the sense "you should learn this super theoretical study and then come back and talk to me" but like if you have more first hand account with Kurdish activists (especially the Guerrillas) and their motivations it would convince you" kind of way) I also met writers of some of them (who got imprisoned for writing these, or their thesis not accepted as it contains to much PKK, seriously) For example two of them I just mentioned are not even Kurds at all. They mostly involved to this by very basic social responsibility or academic stuff and learn about it etc... so do not think these are just propaganda documents. In short we should really learnt to give more subjectivity (or give them the political subjectivity they deserve) to Kurds and Kurdish movement.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

Mark:
But for example for women you think it would be same under ISIS or Autonomous government? In what way would it be same? Do you think really there will be no meaningful difference? and why do you think that given that Autonomy project applies 50 percent quota to women to all levels of self organization of society. And women organize also as separate to protect their interests? I underline "APPLIES" you know it is not an "yeah surely we will do this in the future no worries" kind of stuff. It is an actual practice protected by the Canton's laws. On what ground you think it will be the same (I even did not mention the obvious reactionary policies ISIS would apply based on their understanding of Islam)

I really do not get it how could it be the same for a women?

Mark.

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on October 8, 2014

I was saying it wouldn't be the same, not that it would be the same.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

Yeah I am totally sorry man. I hooked up in this debate too much I guess ( I will have a pause :D )

Mark.

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on October 8, 2014

No problem

Wellclose Square

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Wellclose Square on October 8, 2014

Auld Bod. Thanks. That's appreciated.

mikail firtinaci

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 8, 2014

Kurremkarrekuk:

I neither deny the fact that Kurds are oppressed by the Turkish state nor tried to victimize women. Obviously Kurdish women are very courageous. However, I find it horrible that children are sent to be killed for the purposes of a national cause.

About PKK and religion; thanks for your answers. I think we are basically in agreement that PKK and its numerous front organizations form a cross-class national alliance that is open to the participation of reactionary islamists as long as they comply with PKKs overall nationalist agenda.

And the list about PKKs concessions to islamism goes on... One can start by reading Ocalan's own books. I have neither time or nor any wish to read him again, so anyone interested can just search online.

On PKK and FSA: you should read PYDs declarations that I gave the links for earlier. Salih Muslim said that they are WILLING and IN collaboration with FSA. I believe you know Turkish. Please just see this:

http://t24.com.tr/haber/asli-aydintasbas-pyd-ve-ozgur-suriye-ordusu-anlasma-imzaladi,224036

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on October 8, 2014

kurremkarmerruk

Caiman del Barrio:

1)

I salute the bravery and courage of the female fighters, it seems like the PKK hierarchy are keen on recruiting female comrades as sex slaves 'for the revolution'

This is just bullshit. Come on. This is Turkish state propaganda and if you even cannot get how artificial and made up this is I really think you have no idea what was said about any revolutionary movement by its political rival groups and status quo.

From the thread I linked you to:

Caiman del Barrio

Loath as I am to link to the waffleburgers in the ICC, the accusations against Ocalan and other senior PKK members of repeated rape and sexual abuse of its female members deserve to be heard and maybe Zaher can respond to them:

Is there a reason to rejoice about 'the freedom of women' advocated by the PKK?

The PKK says that within the organization men and women are treated equally and that women adhere to the PKK on a voluntary basis. The question is to know whether this is a desirable principle, inherited from its ‘proletarian orientation', or a deceptive illusion.

Numerous accounts mention that many women members of the PKK were fleeing oppression by the family, especially the risk of forced marriage and honor killings in the traditional Kurdish territories and in Turkish society. But contrary to what our speaker from Fekar stated, these women were also victims of male violence in PKK camps and by none other than the great leader himself.

The source of such information is not the propagandists of the Turkish state but several founding members of the PKK itself who left the organization in disgust over the years. Mehmet Cahit Sener, one of the founders of the PKK who led an early and short-lived split called PKK – Vejin[10] wrote in 1991, a year before being killed on a joint operation of the Syrian intelligence and the PKK[11]: “Apo has forced dozens of our female comrades to immoral relations with him, defiled most and declared the ones who insisted on refusing to be people 'who haven't understood the party, who haven't understood us' and has heavily repressed them, and even order the murder of some claiming they are agents. Some of our female comrades who are in this situation are still under arrest and under torture, being forced to make confessions appropriate to the scenarios that they are agents (…) The relations between men and women within the party have turned into a harem in Apo's palace and many female comrades were treated as concubines by this individual.”[12]

Another founding leader of the PKK, Selim Curukkaya, who did actually manage to escape from Apo's grasp to Europe a few years later, wrote in his memoirs of countless incidents supporting Sener's general statements, further elaborating the repressive measures towards women in particular and in regards to the relations between men and women in general. According to Curukkaya's memoirs sexual relations were banned for the entire membership, and those caught were severely punished – tortured, imprisoned and even declared traitors in some cases which led to their executions – male and female alike. One striking example in Curukkaya's memoirs was the imprisonment of a couple of young guerrillas for no reason other than practicing ‘adultery of the eye’, in other words looking at each other. In contrast, the great leader of the PKK had the right to any women in the organization, and the rest of the leadership were rewarded if they proved obedient and useful[13]. Other founding leaders who have left since have admitted that these testimonies were indeed correct.

Not that Ocalan himself hasn't been as open as he could've been in his own speeches, texts, books, declarations and so on and so forth over the years. In a book written by him in 1992 titled Cozumleme, Talimat ve Perspektifler (Analyses, Orders and Perspectives), he stated: “These girls mentioned. I don't know, I have relations with thousands of them. I don't care how anyone understands it. If I've gotten close with some of them, how should this have been? (…) On these subjects, they leave aside all the real measurements and find someone and gossip, say 'this was attempted to be done to me here' or 'this was done to me there'! These shameless women both want to give too much and then develop such things. Some of the people mentioned. Good grace! They say 'we need it so, it would be very good' and then this gossip is developed (…) I'm saying it openly again. This is the sort of warrior I am. I love girls a lot, I value them a lot. I love all of them. I try to turn every girl into a lover, in an unbelievable level, to the point of passion. I try to shape them from their physique to their soul, to their thoughts. I see it in myself to fulfill this task. I define myself openly. If you find me dangerous, don't get close!” [14]

In a pamphlet he wrote more recently, Ocalan called Toplumsal Cinsiyetciligin Ozgurlestirilmesi (The Liberation of Social Sexism), he says: “In the ranks of the PKK, a true love is possible by a heroism proving itself with success. And what can we call the many female-male runaways? Frankly, we can call them the lapsed Kurdish identity proving itself (…) Besides myself and our martyred comrades have heroically been workers for the road to love. If those who supposedly fell like experiencing love haven't understood the value of such efforts, they are either blind, or evil, or scum or traitors. What else can be expected of us for love? You won't run to any successes in your revolutionary duties, and then you'll say you feel like having a relationship! It is clear that this is a shameless approach (…) Even birds make their nests in places untouched by foreigners. Can love build homes in lands and hearts occupied till the throat? Any force you'll take shelter in will do who knows what to the lovers. My experience has showed this: Living with a woman of the order isn't possible without betraying revolutionary duties.”[15]

The talk of freedom of women advocated by the PKK today is rather a cruel irony.

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201304/7373/internationalism-only-response-kurdish-issue#_ftn13

I am really amused by your capacity to humiliate Kurdish women by assuming that they are just stupid people. So they even don't know they are used. It is even insulting to reply back to this. Yeah Caiman del Barrio only you know what is revolution, political action etc... and rest (especially the Kurdish women I guess) are just mindless zombies ordered to do stuff. Maybe you could save them as obviously they lack capacity to think for themselves.

I honestly don't think Kurdish women fighters are idiots. I stated that there is a history of PKK commanders forcing women into sex, and my evidence is above. Or do you think that the women - and commanders themselves, who've admitted it! - are lying?

2) You can be skeptical as much as you want however the problem is that people in Kobane has no time for that they are stuck because of their bravery to establish an autonomous zone and other the region a freer alternative and not a some sort of dictatorship. And because of that they are now attacked by Islamic State while whole the world does not give a shit. So take your time man no worries... We can always make heroes and reaffirm our political identities after everything is finished.

3)

If we don't and can't learn from the experiences of Spain '36, then there really is no point in your mentioning it.

Yeah lets learn from it. What did you learnt? Why it failed you think? Do you think they lost because they were unaware of communist threat? Or because they participated in government? I really don't get what you wish to achieve by discussing this? (I think it will not help you at all: because hard cold fact is a war is a war, you lose it if you have not enough military power.) (By the way I mentioned it to show that this problem of war, the need for supply from countries that are not directly involved etc are always needed. So we should rethink before condemning the Kurds in fight to being cooperative)

4) Yeah what do you want to win?

International communism.

What you don't?

A nation state which subjugates ethnic minorities, or indeed, a series of monoethnic/communalist Balkanised states.

But since you think women fighters are stupid sex slaves it is comical to discuss. If you did watched the video I shared you would see women organize separate from Kurdish movement and elect a co-leader for every position (I underlay every, from each canton's government leader to military positions)

I think it's important to take a class line, which means distinguishing between women fighters and the commanders who have a history of forcing them into sex, or indeed, slut-shaming them when they have consensual sex. Like I say, I don't see any point in criticising the fighters, but I can see reasons why people shouldn't travel to the area to take up arms (the original subject of this thread).

I am sure whoever wins everything will be so bad or so good nothing is really important in this fight i guess...
Maybe you should also take a vacation with this nihilistic communist guy? :D Maybe you could visit Kobane after the war to see how nice now after the Kurd's autonomous uprising is crashed.

I'm not sure who'll win or how. A discussion about this would be good, rather than placing all our chips with the Kurds. There needs to be breaks and rebellions within all the forces there, against militarism, against this war, against the elite's plans. I've heard it said that the IS core is actually reasonably small, and they rely on the support of Sunni tribal leaders. At some point, the villages and towns in which they are embedded need to rise up against them. Likewise, the Kurds would be better off without the PKK, and Syrians would do well to get rid of Assad and the Ba'athists, the FSA leaders positioning themselves (many of whom - even the Pentagon's selected 'moderates' - have some pretty disastrous plans).

5)

So, we say no war but the class war for a reason, since we don't believe human life is worth sacrificing for the restoration of an oppressive, unfree nation state.

So I guess there are two forms of societies? One is unfree nation state and other totally free and fine communist state. How I never thought of that? You westerners are really intelligent maybe I should go tell this to Fighters in Kobane? Nobody heard about it for sure. By the way you should also please try to organize class organization after Kurds in Syria, with Assad, ISIS or FSA I guess it will be fun.

Well, no, since I'm an arrogant Westerner (I am, this is true, ;) and I hold that the West's 'interventions' in the war is doubtless gonna be negative - my original point, if you remember). You're the one talking about going over there anyway, so if you wanna intervene, I think it falls on you to build the class organisations.

Here in London, I'd probably be better off offering support to refugees from the conflict, helping them fight for asylum seeker status and establish themselves, and supporting them defending themselves against racists and the ripples of the conflict into European cities (like what happened in Hamburg).

7)

Yes it is, and I think it's pretty churlish of some people to cast aspersions on the fighters in Kobane or anywhere else. It seems like a reasonable response to take up arms some mad nutjob religious fundamentalists showing up in your manor to steal your home, kill the men and abduct the women as sex slaves. I think Mikhail would have a hard time convincing Kurds that they should abandon their property, their livestock and their possessions instead of joining the armed resistance. Being 'right' is sometimes not the most important thing.

What what WHAT?.. .

You've totally misunderstood me there. I was actually saying that Mikhail wouldn't be able to convince fighters not to fight, and I'm not sure how productive it would be. It seems...insensitive to the point of absurdity to tell people to abandon their homes, property, etc.

(Unfortunately Caiman del Barrio I really can’t reply back to your post. But please clarify one thing for me? You really think that it would be mostly the same whether the Kurdish autonomous region somehow prevails (or even extends its model to Syria) or ISIS, FSA or Assad wins? Do you think the resulting Syria would be same for you? What do you think would it be same for women or for future politically progressive developments or movements?

Well, possibly not. It's not impossible that a Syria under FSA, or even a Kurdish region under PKK control, would be better than being subsumed into IS. But then, you can use that argument to support Assad (as some do!), forgetting the brutality of the first 18 months of the war before IS' arrival (remember the chemical attacks?). You could also use it to argue for Gaddafi, or Saddam, or even Yanukovich in Ukraine.

The possible permutations of military conquest are actually far more complex than many people would like. It seems much simpler to discount other factors: economic, geopolitical, climactic, etc, and even forget the Faustian Pact of sending the West's planes in. Rather, I think this sort of speculation by foreign 'radicals' on which horse to back is rather cynical. People are dying in their hundreds of thousands and others are using them to furnish their Facebook status and subcultural lifestyle choices.

petey

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by petey on October 8, 2014

solidariedade

Sectarian violence continues to spread in germany. Last night in Hamburg there were reports of extremely violent clashes between kurds and salafists.

http://www.zeit.de/news/2014-10/08/demonstrationen-kurden-und-salafisten-pruegeln-sich-in-hamburg-08070804

my german has evaporated, so in english:

http://rt.com/news/194060-germany-kurds-muslims-brawls/

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/10/08/mideast-crisis-germany-protests-idINKCN0HX1F320141008

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

Mikhail sorry but we do not agree at all:

1)

However, I find it horrible that children are sent to be killed for the purposes of a national cause.

I guess everyone is. however this is fault of Turkish (or other states) who did never offer these kids a life in their own language and discriminate and exploit them endlessly.

2) I do not think PKK is ONLY a national movement to see it that way is just like saying AKP (governing party in Turkey) is only Islamist and that is all. (However they are also neoliberal in economy, authoritarian in politics, conservative in certain social issues, On the other hand PKK (as the guerrilla movement) is organized in poorest regions in Turkey (or Kurdistan actually) and among poorest of population (not exclusively but mostly) it is socialist by history, has current libertarian tendencies, has feminist values etc.) However I am tired of repeating this and do not wish to discuss it no more.

3) What nationalist agenda? What nationalist agenda you mean? did you see it in your dream? (I am sorry if this is rude but come on I am really tired now) Agenda of PKK is obvious it is written in so many books now. it is Bookchinian. It is called "Ecological Confederalism" it is based on communal economy all can be found even in english, if you care you can go and see it yourself. It is written by Ocalan himself, Bookchin himself (of course) Daily articles about it can be found in Ozgur Gundem (a Kurdish newspaper) It is discussed by autonomist marxist movement in Turkey, and other numerour publications; go check it out yourself. Please do not make me repeat myself.

4) Yeah I guess you are right they strategically open their doors to even "reactionary islamists" ok? But what does it mean in political terms? Does this mean they are following what islamists say? You know Altan Tan (the islamist Kurd pm) was actually asked by AKP to be with them. Would it be better if AKP had more Kurdish Islamist to their site (combined with their current still huge vote base) Whatever Kurds do politically you always seem to try to find their real true political self under it. It does not even matter to you the wider political reality people need to face while building an mass progressive organization.

5)

And the list about PKKs concessions to islamism goes on... One can start by reading Ocalan's own books. I have neither time or nor any wish to read him again, so anyone interested can just search online.

No this is just no! what book you mean? what did you read? List still stops here but you frantically switch now to some texts (as opposed to your arguments about at least some social stuff that happened) You even don't bother to support your argument. I think you only pretend to be look good but has no substantial argument or example to support your claim (and your organization possibly)

6) The interview you share is from last year (january) It is very obsolete. Now (let me inform you) YPG is seen as siding with Assad. and you know why YPG seems to change sides so many times but not making any substantial alliances: it is because they want to imply Bookchinian Confederalism for the first time. They do not give a shit about Islamists, or Arab nationalists or dictators . They make strategic moves to maintain their existence. They want a confederate Syria organized by principles of direct democracy.

Why nobody wish to believe in this despite all the evidence to contrary (should I count again?: equal participation of women in all offices, quotas to encourage all ethnicities to participate in governments, a social economy [see Zaher's article], a government based on confederation of cantons and smaller communes and in general their progressive politics) Why this is really hard to swallow?

mikail firtinaci

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 8, 2014

Thanks for this enlightening post Kurremkarmerruk.

Anyway, about PYD and FSA, if you want to see a more recent report:

http://www.aljazeera.com.tr/al-jazeera-ozel/pek-cok-konuda-fikir-birligine-vardik

I don't understand why you keep rejecting this. You argued that PKK is a democratic organization and thus (as you seem to accept) it is open to collaboration even with reactionary-islamists; so why are you disturbed by the fact that PKK is in collaboration with FSA?

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

Caiman del Barrio:
1) Ok if you want to believe in this sex slave issue do as you please. But it is never proven It was made by a dissident of PKK who might be in a strategy to get the control of Kurds in his movement. It possibly a made up story. I mean how the hell I can now (or you know) It just seems fishy to me. But important point is: this is a very old accusation that is told to happen years ago. But we are discussing a current fight? Current women fighters? Should all their movement ust becondemned according to something that is not know for sure?

2)[quote]4) Yeah what do you want to win?

International communism./quote]

Ok International communism. Maybe we should change it to Galactic comunism to start to build it from mars. Not an actual transnational movement that tries to make a revolution and imply Bookchinian ideas. Good thought. I am on it with you, no worries.

3)

Like I say, I don't see any point in criticising the fighters, but I can see reasons why people shouldn't travel to the area to take up arms (the original subject of this thread).

So you found a rape threat I guess in Kobane (based on a just a claim) . Maybe we should warn everyone. But interestingly women does not seem to care. Why is that maybe they might know whats going on there more than you? (as the original subject was tha fact that people go there :D ) Is it somehow possible? Maybe we should make rape surveys to women there? Come on is this what amounts to "International communism?" (and why are you still phantasize about women and their "commanders"? Don't you read every position has a female co-leader in rojova. For example: Salih Muslim you know he is not the only leader, he has a co-leader who has same right with him and she is currently fighting with ISIS in Kobane)

4)

A nation state which subjugates ethnic minorities, or indeed, a series of monoethnic/communalist Balkanised states.

It must be obvious by now but Autonomous region is not monoethnic (yeah it is communalistic though in a Bookchinian way)

5)

There needs to be breaks and rebellions within all the forces there, against militarism, against this war, against the elite's plans. I've heard it said that the IS core is actually reasonably small, and they rely on the support of Sunni tribal leaders. At some point, the villages and towns in which they are embedded need to rise up against them. Likewise, the Kurds would be better off without the PKK, and Syrians would do well to get rid of Assad and the Ba'athists, the FSA leaders positioning themselves (many of whom - even the Pentagon's selected 'moderates' - have some pretty disastrous plans).

Yeah maybe ISIS should say that it was just a joke and come out as international communists? :D What you discuss above is just using some terms (derived from western societies) to to make wishful thinking (they should? what do you mean by they should?) And as a note I am not directly interested in whose going to win. I am interested in realization of a a social direct democracy established in Syria not to fall down. (and what does it mean chips? Would you play your chips to ISIs or Assad? What would it win you? International communism?)

6) Yeah about refugees you are right of course. But I think you could much better to create public attention (it might not solve it of curse but it might be helpful for future that Kurds ofr example know that you supported their cause and maybe form better political bounds.

7) sorry for misunderstanding I am rather tired.

8) So you think it is the same if Syria under FSA or Kurdish autonomy or even Assad (except ISIS):

it's not impossible that a Syria under FSA, or even a Kurdish region under PKK control, would be better than being subsumed into IS.

Then challenge you to support your argument: In what sense it will be the same for ethnic/religious groups (Sii, Kurdish, Sunni, Turkmen) will they have quotas and will be represented in governments? will they be able to speak their own languages freely? If FSA wins wont the constitution of new state would not indicate it is an "Arabic state". (FSA). Or women will they for example have the same rights (for example will they be able to fight in armies if they wish so? ) Will communalist economy continue? Will there be a confederation? and please explain how on earth you know none of this is totally worthless? On all these accounts Kurd's Autonomy project is very progressive, how this does not matter? Of course you can ignore everything that is applied so far and argue from total abstract point of view and say "Nah its all nationalism" but I really can not say no more to this insensitivity towards real human struggle and development.

mikail firtinaci

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 8, 2014

Ocalan (PKKs imprisoned leader) on Islam: http://www.bianet.org/bianet/siyaset/155582-ocalan-dan-islam-kongresi-ne-mesaj

I wish this was in English. This is basically a letter sent by Ocalan to "Kurdistan Democratic Islam Congress," which is addressing his "believer brothers". Ocalan in this text basically praises Islam and Ummah. He says that "we can not be defined by western concepts such as communism and atheism". He then talks about how Kurdistan needs an Islamic institutionalization and so on...

But, I am sure there is a proper Bookchinist and democratic explanation to all this...

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

mikail firtinaci:

No I am not against FSA and Kurds collaboration. I just did not know that it is becoming real now (or seems to) Thank you I did not know it.

However when I read it, it sounds very unreasonable. According to interview Turkey must change its position totally, which seems not the case for now. You know the heart of the matter is that Turkey does not which establishment of autonomous region connected to political goals of PKK for obvious reasons. And Salih Muslim does not really explicitly say we agree on this ( he even say stuff that means Turkey does not follow the implications of the agreement: for example does not attack back to ISIS side after being hit by bombs) Turkey is known to support ISIS quite secretly and speak very soft on issue (but does not help Kobane at all)

So I am having hard time to believe this interview. For example FSA also of course does not wish any Cantons and does not accept it. I really do not see how this issue is solved magically?

Moreover today 5 people are arrested by Turkish Army. They are said to be members of YPG and they crossed to border with AK-47's. This news combined with continuing street protest in Turkey called by HDP. (with death toll of 22 now).I really can not believe Turkey would keep its promise if this thing is happened at all.

However if we would really speak strategy. I guess a change in the attitude of Turkey is realy needed otherwise it would require magic to make Kobane (and others) to survive. The time is against us. they are badly armed. It is really not realistic (I think) to assume they will win. However if my "optimistic" idea is this: I actually think it is possibly only way for them to continue if FSA accepts them and consequently Turkey needs to keep its promise (as they support FSA) and there is somehow an international attack on ISIS and Assad. I am totally not qualified to make such analyses and I am already made myself ashamed but, this seems to be only way they could survive ( however please no one blame me for being supportive of international action, I am just saying a scenario, I would be much much more happy if Turkey just makes arms support to Kurds an they liberate Syria one by one and possibly inspiring all the people around the globe. but i guess life does not work that way.)

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

Mikhail: Yeah but I know all of this:

Ocalan (PKKs imprisoned leader) on Islam: http://www.bianet.org/bianet/siyaset/155582-ocalan-dan-islam-kongresi-ne-mesaj

Unfortunately there is no Bookchinian explanation. There is only a cold blooded, hard fact political explanation of this Ocalan needs to counter AKP and Hizbullahs (its Turkish part that is different from others it is basically a kurdish islamist fundamentalist group) and to do so he choose the way to get involve in it on isntitutional basis.

The Islamic congress you mention is the same one I mentioned above (it is only one actually I do not what happened to that:

For example Altan Tan you know what he thinks of the Islamic congress? He should very happy with it right? No not at all he did not even attend to it (go check it) Because if you look at the reports of the Islamic congress It was designed to support the new movement "anti-capitalist muslims" (not the movement I guess but ideology) The speakers etc were from anti-capitalist muslim thinkers (the most important one was Ihsan Eliacik a Turkish interpreter of islam following the way of Ali Seriati) and Islamic congress is not such action for example there were civil Friday prays these were all political mobilisations of masses for rights for ethnic minorities, social justice and confederal government. And no surprise Altan Tan is currently not happy with HDK (and its party now HDP) he claims it is being a marginal leftist organization. (please also check this out, there is an interview made with him)

I think Ocalan wants to connect anti-capitalist muslim movements and sentiment to Kurdish movement who otherwise might be influenced by AKP or Hizbullah. I really think Kurdish movement is in every way much more better than them compared to others.I think it is really important not to miss he fact that Altan Tan (an Islamic Kurd pm he is also self declared reactionary) was not happy with the Islamic Congress at all.

Moreover you can also give example of his last Newroz speech (letter) It also mention we are bounded by islamic bound etc... But these are really strategic moves on the side of Ocalan I think. He tires to reach a much more massive audience. (By the way he also said about this later speech he was misunderstood and did not wish to discriminate against Alevis or others [ Alevies are a religious minority in Turkey])

mikail firtinaci

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 8, 2014

So I am having hard time to believe this interview. For example FSA also of course does not wish any Cantons and does not accept it. I really do not see how this issue is solved magically?

Why don't you consider the possibility that maybe all those talks about cantons and democratic con-federalism is just the ideological smokescreen, that the real issue here is political hegemony of PKK as an armed nationalist organization?

I agree that only foreign intervention can keep Kobane out of ISIS control. But for communists these are strategic questions of world imperialism. Now, in my humble view the question remains:

1) How to build solidarity with the Kurdish immigrants? How to counteract against the brutal capitalist exploitation of the immigrants?

2) What is the meaning of Kobane question for the world working class? How all this chaos effects the prospects of world revolution? To me this is the only strategic question we can pose here.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

This news say:
http://www.radikal.com.tr/dunya/isid_kobaniye_guc_yigmaya_devam_ediyor-1217741

ISIS Still puts more arms, people, vehicles to Kobane to take it. It also made a successful "positioning" to block the Turkish national border. Now if they take the city the civilians have no place to go. It could end up in a massacre, if Kurds lose.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

Mikhail:

Quote:
So I am having hard time to believe this interview. For example FSA also of course does not wish any Cantons and does not accept it. I really do not see how this issue is solved magically?
Why don't you consider the possibility that maybe all those talks about cantons and democratic con-federalism is just the ideological smokescreen, that the real issue here is political hegemony of PKK as an armed nationalist organization?

I agree that only foreign intervention can keep Kobane out of ISIS control. But for communists these are strategic questions of world imperialism. Now, in my humble view the question remains:

1) How to build solidarity with the Kurdish immigrants? How to counteract against the brutal capitalist exploitation of the immigrants?

2) What is the meaning of Kobane question for the world working class? How all this chaos effects the prospects of world revolution? To me this is the only strategic question we can pose here.

I mean I am totally agree with you. You know if they go and become part of FSA you would be totally right. I have no problem with that (on the condition that if it was obvious in a point that they have no hope of winning at all and they kind of just give up and agree to FSA not to cause more deaths, you know surrender out of total necessity) (Although I must admit the news I copied above seems not good at all)

But if they do not and fight for their ideals would you reconsider your position like you demand from me?

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 8, 2014

By the way I also would like to add this to discussion ( if anyone except me and Mikhail still follows it)

http://anarkismo.net/article/27455

How we should interpret this call for solidarity from "Feminists and LGBTs from Turkey" ? Are they maniacs whishing to be oppressed by not Turkish state but by a Kurdish state? Or might there be something else to it?

The HDK (people's democratic congress, it was organized by kurds to reach more other ethnicities, groups like different womens groups leftist parties, islamists, LGBTQ organizations [not just Kurds at all]) I think for example was a good move on their site and (I think) it appears to produce such statement for example.

I mean this might seem very secondary if you look at the picture from far far away. And I do not claim that Kurdish movement (or Kurds in general) are totaly anti-homophobic but why do you think is that they support Kobane? Could it be because they know Kurdish movement in Turkey? Could it be they know what Autonomy project offers to LGBTQ people (we talked about women already lets neglect that) in Syria (as compared to others or in general maybe)? Or they don't know shit and this is just a propaganda?

How much communists /anarchists care about them? I ask this in relation to my question: Do you think it would be same if Autonomy experiment survives or not? I mean I do not want to make this like a liberal consciousness stuff. But rather like you know for advancement of the interests of global working class (which certainly includes LGBTQ people [as well as woman] how does it relate? Should not we care what they support what they do in the sense that you know, you might need to speak to them later in time? You might be asked what were you doing when the only hope in Syria for me was falling down? Why as a communist you claimed it is the same for you if it is Assad or ISIS or Democratic Autonomy?

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 9, 2014

By the way related to topic I just saw this facebook post by DAF (link: https://www.facebook.com/anarsistfaaliyetorg/photos/a.1489777307904821.1073741828.1480916092124276/1544944152388136/?type=1)
In summary:
It says we have people in Kobane who are acting as "human shield" for three weeks now. In last two days the sound of clashes in the streets of Kobane increased. Turkish army throws pepper gas grenades to us. The current opposition in Turkey and other places give everyone power here. Long live the people's resistance of Kobane!

ben.

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by ben. on October 9, 2014

Rush job PDF pamphlet of the article David Graeber wrote about the situation: http://oplopanaxpublishing.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/why-is-the-world-ignoring-the-revolutionary-kurds-in-syria/

ajjohnstone

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by ajjohnstone on October 9, 2014

Sorry to say i am very much a Johnny-Come-Lately to understanding the situation and so still in catch-up phase and cannot make any comments.

However i did come across this article of a visit to the region not too many months ago published by Norwegian Bookchin-influenced group, which some may not have read before and might find interesting and explain the sympathies of many anarchists.

http://new-compass.net/articles/revolution-rojava

mikail firtinaci

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 9, 2014

I think it is also helpful to read this interview with the "Kurdistan Anarchist Forum". They clearly condemned PKK as nationalist (at least back in 2010):

Kurdistan Anarchist Forum: We believe that the PKK is a Stalinist, Maoist and terrorist organisation that was created in the climate of terror, suppression and oppression. The military, fascist and racist government in Turkey pushed the situation further and further until the announcement of the birth of a radical, popular but suicidal organisation, the PKK. In our opinion they serve neither their cause nor that of the working class. In fact, what they do by their actions is give justification to the military government to damage the Kurdish question nationally and internationally. they ( PKK & Turkish Government) have caused the destruction of so many Villages and small towns, displacing million of people, killing so many innocent people.

The Turkish government and the PKK actually help each other. The PKK makes the Turkish government stronger, and the working class issue much weaker. At the same time, the way the Turkish government has tackled the problem has made the PKK stronger - at least in some parts of Kurdistan.

These actions by both of them have made the working class and anarchist movement in Turkey weaker and weaker.

https://libcom.org/news/interview-anarchist-iraqui-kurdish-05032010

I don't have any clue if they are still around, but it would be interesting to know what they think about the situation now.

ben.

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by ben. on October 9, 2014

interesting indeed, as Graeber claims the PKK has turned around to take a much more anti-authoritarian stance of late.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 9, 2014

Good morning

ben.

Why it is strange? Graeber did come to Turkey in 2012. Maybe back then he was informed about Kurdish struggle and its current ideological tendency. He might even had contact with some Kurds.

mikail:

https://libcom.org/news/interview-anarchist-iraqui-kurdish-05032010

I don't have any clue if they are still around, but it would be interesting to know what they think about the situation now.

I know this interview. Yeah totally it might be interesting to hear back from.them. However they do not back up their convictions and judgments with any supporting evidence in the interview and claim some unintelligible stuff "We believe that the PKK is a Stalinist, Maoist ...organisation" How can one be both?

There are also other Kurdish anarchists of course. Apart from people engaged with ecology and communal living, there is Qijika Reş http://qijikares.blogspot.com.tr/2012_06_01_archive.html It is (or was) a Kurdish anarchist magazine published in two languages. They were from Turkey and they had a much more nuanced relation to Kurdish movement. According to some of their current posts (of Kurdish anarchists in general I know) people are also very supportive for Syrian Autonomy project to live and realize Bookchinian principles for the first time. They are especially sure about the ideological integrity and truthfulness of YPG fighters.

slothjabber

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slothjabber on October 9, 2014

How can one organisation be 'both' Maoist and Stalinist? Because Maoism is a form of Stalinism, that's how. Stalinist = believing in socialism in one country; Maoist = believing in socialism in one country through peasant war. All Maoists are Stalinists; not all Stalinists are Maoists.

Spikymike

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on October 9, 2014

As stated ealier under threat of war, ethnic cleansing and death the choices facing Kurdish people in Kobane and northern Syria are few. None in practice offer any guarantees of safety or even survival. Decisions made to fight back or to flee from ISIS are hard ones that can only be made by those immediately affected and have little to do with matters of ideology in the immediate situation.

As to the political background and strategies being employed by the various political players in the region this is the way I read it:
Ocalan and the PKK clearly have changed their political approach in a belated recognition that they were never going to get a traditional independent nation state in a real world dominated by the major world and regional imperialist powers and that the best they could hope for in the forseable future was a power base in a regional autonomy secured through a compromise with those same powers. This in turn has necessitated a new approach to gaining the popular support of local Kurdish and other geographically based ethnic minorities accross class divisions to such a change of course and a move towards a more secular and democratic regime. The attachment of elements of Bookchins mistaken municipalist strategy to this ideological turn provides a link to support in the wider international leftist movement which might otherwise remain reluctant to support a more obvious new capitalist state in the region. Clearly the Kurdish political/military apparatus in Iraq have found other routes towards autonomy and a potentially independent state by means of other compromises with local and world imperialism and have no need of any such ildeological turn. Graeber's comparisons are ridiculous in terms of both the content of the two situations and the historical period - the International brigades, despite their bravery, were a failure then and are no solution now. Imperialist powers do not intervene under pressure from leftist movements for humanitarian motives but only ever in their own perceived interests something only too obvious now in the current battles raging in the Middle East.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 9, 2014

slothjabber:

Yeah I know what you mean. But you disregard all of the obvious differences between these two authoritarian currents and also of the fact that it was an important part of separation between different socialist currents historically (I don't know your country but for example it was very important if you side with Russia or China in socialist groups in Turkey. People even died due to this debates) Anyway I just would like to point out an obvious non-very precise analysis that was made in the interview. It was not that important actually.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 9, 2014

http://www.firatnews.com/news/guncel/kobane-den-acil-yardim-cagrisi.htm#.VDZdxnEWbE0.twitter

This one says Kobane is close to fall. There is need for humanitarian supplies for thousands of civilians and Kobane is surrounded totally now.

Spikymike:

Graeber's comparisons are ridiculous in terms of both the content of the two situations

I do not think it is ridiculous to compare these two.Of course historically they are two different instances (but what is not different historically?) However the content (as he says) is possibly the closest you can get to Spanish Revolution in your life time. I think this has some truth value. I think he tries to make reference to a common point for all libertarian leftists to make them aware what is at stake there. This is not a full fledged equalization, but rather underlining the possible importance of Autonomy project and a call for a support. (However of course I know not everyone agrees on what is at stake in Kobane)

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on October 9, 2014

kurremkarmerruk

Why it is strange? Graeber did come to Turkey in 2012.

There's currently a fundraising campaign to send him back ie put his money where his mouth is: http://gogetfunding.com/project/homage-to-kobane

Juan Conatz

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Juan Conatz on October 9, 2014

I think its pretty remarkable than in basically 2-3 days, the framing of what is occurring has gone from "the YPG is a progressive force worth defending in this situation" to "Catalonia 1936"...

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 9, 2014

According to IMC TV (a non-mainstream channel that reports also on Kurdish issues in Turkey) live report just now. As the border gate Mursitpinar (Turkey) is closed currently 9 wounded (YPG I guess) died because of lack of medical treatment.

Another report is this (this is not totally confirmed yet how it happened) but i appears there were attack to Border Gate by two sides of the border (from Syria also Turkey) It was aimed to opening up of the Border. There are two different reports one says Turkish soldiers run away and people crossed the border, weapons are taken by people. Other says it is failed one person died others wounded. (this might be connected to the first one above)

I guess these show the Syrian Kurdish and Turkish (so FSA) relations seems to not go well at all? Any thoughts?

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 9, 2014

Juan Conatz:

I think its pretty remarkable than in basically 2-3 days, the framing of what is occurring has gone from "the YPG is a progressive force worth defending in this situation" to "Catalonia 1936"...

Yeah, maybe at this rate, in 2 or 3 more days David Graeber and YPG guerrillas might come to your door and draft you to their national army :D ( If you are woman or child they would probably do much worse though)

Leo

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Leo on October 9, 2014

On the position of the Kurdistan Anarchist Forum today, here's what I've dug up:

The only other English-speaking anarchist voice is the Kurdistan Anarchist Forum (KAF), a pacifist group of Iraqi Kurds living in Europe who claim not to “have any relationships with other leftist groups.” While supporting a federated Kurdistan, the KAF declares that it will “only support the PKK when they give up the armed struggle completely, engage in organising popular grassroots mass movements for the sake of achieving the people’s social demands, denounce and dismantle centralised and hierarchical modes of struggle and instead turn to federated autonomous local groups, end all relations and dealings with the states of the Middle East and the West, denounce charismatic power politics, and convert to anti-statism and anti-authoritarianism — only then will we be happy to cooperate with them fully.”

Source: http://roarmag.org/2014/08/pkk-kurdish-struggle-autonomy/

Here's what they've said on what has been going on in Syrian Kurdistan earlier this year: https://libcom.org/news/experiment-west-kurdistan-syrian-kurdistan-has-proved-people-can-make-changes-zaher-baher-2

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 10, 2014

Thanks Leo:

How I missed that the article titled "The experiment of West Kurdistan (Syrian Kurdistan) has proved that people can make changes - Zaher Baher" (link in above comment) was written by Kurdistan Anarchist Forum. I must be blind or something, I even made comments under it.

Anyway they seem to severely changed their approach to PKK and YPG (and Ocalan ) compared to early interview. They now have a much more nuanced and not that clear cut position (like, they no longer say armed Kurdish struggle is Stalinist, Maoist, terrorist nationalist or reactionary). They seem to be supportive of the experiment while debating in an extend the problems that may arise (which is I think the best way to approach it) I think their "change in attitude" come not because of ethical or ideological reasons but by experiencing and realizing the Autonomist experiment from inside (as they are actually European in origin). Not everyone can go there (or need to go there) but I think we should evaluate on the change of opinion of Kurdistan Anarchist Forum as it might provide for us good insights.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 10, 2014

I don't know if anybody reads but I will continue to translate the news I found important on Kobane here (in summary form and with links) (as I am already doing it for some friends anyway.)

http://www.imctv.com.tr/2014/10/10/pyd-es-baskani-abdullahtan-yardim-koridoru-cagrisi/

In this link you can see the picture of Asya Abdullah. She is the co-leader of PYD. She is actually at the same rank with Salih Muslim. I did mentioned her in one of the above comments. (By the way I noticed one thing -I also made the same mistake I guess- Salih Muslim is not leader of PYD, he is a co-leader. But must of the news represent Salih Muslim as "the leader" and if hey will report about Abdullah they then call her co-leader. Like she is in some form of inferior position. Only Kurdish resources report this issue rightly, all others from leftists to mainstream media report it wrongly. Another (maybe small but important) thing to learn from Kurdish Struggle.)

She says: We need an urgent "aid corridor" to Kobane to continue the resistance. She asks for coalition to continue attacking the heavy artillery of ISIS positioned in the outside of city (and bombing the city [including the civilians] from there) She only reports ISIS brings army supplies from these cities: Rakka, Minbic, Carablus, Sarrin, Tal Abyad ve Ayn Issa. They need this transportations to stop. She also notes that ISIS also have tanks which are acquired by taking them from Assad's forces.

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on October 10, 2014

kurremkarmerruk

Caiman del Barrio:
1) Ok if you want to believe in this sex slave issue do as you please. But it is never proven It was made by a dissident of PKK who might be in a strategy to get the control of Kurds in his movement. It possibly a made up story. I mean how the hell I can now (or you know) It just seems fishy to me.

Nice one mate, so someone says something mean about some people you have an erection for cos they totally use guns AND quote Bookchin, so they must be making it up.

I put it you that your denial of these accusations has nothing to do with an objective assessment of the evidence and everything to do with your preconceived fondness for the PKK. It's total bullshit and it shouldn't be allowed to stand around here. As a general practice, due to the tiny percentage of rapes and sexual abuses on women that result in a guilty conviction (it's 7% in the UK, I wonder what the stat is in Turkey/wartorn Syria), we tend to presume that any accusation is honest and made in good faith. You instead have dismissed it as "Turkish state propaganda" and then "a made up story". This is a Stalinist device: to denounce every error and sin made by 'your side' as a fabrication of 'your' 'enemies'.

Funny how anarchists are so quick to drop their principles and ideas when someone waves an AK around, AND WOMEN TOO. Oooh I wonder if they're single hurruh hurruh...ad nauseam...

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 10, 2014

I was wondering when I will get the first threat to be kicked out :D

But please do not try to frame me as a misogynist or a mindless supporter of PKK.

On your (very old) accusations of rape by Ocalan I just said I do not know. But it just sounds fishy as it was only argued by someone who formed his own Kurdish party in opposition to PKK. There is no hardcore evidence or even there is no evidence of women statements who are harmed like this. However if this issue happened we should condemn them and Ocalan for that.

However your coming up with this old accusation actually works the discredit the current fight of women, and their current good position of them in movement (See above mentioned Kurdish anarchist forum article for that) I mean if you really care go find do your search come up with objective evidence then I will agree with you, no problem and I hope Kurdish Women's movement will also agree with you either.

Moreover if you are really interested in learning some objective criticism (I mean based on real hard evidence) of PKK for example see this (or ask for your comrades to read it than maybe sum it up to you). http://t24.com.tr/haber/pkk-dhkp-c-tikko-yoldaslarini-nasil-oldurduler,267458 This is a book by an old Kurdish activist titled "how they killed their comrades?" It is based on detailed analysis of the subject matter of the title in PKK, TIKKO and THKP-C. If I remember correctly PKK as the most cases of killing their compromised militants (however also mind that PKK's number is HUGE ) Writer himself also become alienated to PKK after such and incident. These stuff should be condemned made public criticized etc. (also see the note below)

However the thing is this is not the whole picture. For example Omer Laciner owner of the publishing house (and also a leftist) (his name is mentioned in the article) for example is also critical of this stuff of course. but yesterday I saw him in TV he was arguing for help to Kobane, condemning the Turkish State's attitude etc... Although he has a critical attitude towards PKK and its past it does not stop him from realizing the fact that Kobane and Autonomy experiment and its future is an huge issue for any socialist (in a general sense). We can not just say yeah "they are doomed, though luck we should just care about refugees". How can we be so willing to just give up possibly a huge social project as they will definitely fail "in the future" (according to our theoretical position) I think people who think like are at least as much "chair/academic socialist" as Graeber and completely lack any understanding of politics apart from some theoretical constructions.

p.s. I must add that writer of the book says after 2004 no such event (internal killing of militants) occurred to his knowledge. (it is in interview)

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 10, 2014

The Irish WSM just posted this about an hour ago.

The YPG/J continue to fight ISIS in Kobane while heavy Turkish tanks literally look on, the buildings in the background are in Kobane.

The tanks are part of Turkeys intervention, an intervention that is keeping the border closed to prevent the YPG/J being resupplied. Multiple sources report they are not only short of ammo but also out of food. They are facing perhaps 9000 ISIS fighters, Their command has said that if they could resupply they say they could win but these tanks are among the Turkish forced preventing that happening and keeping the border sealed.

On the 25th day of the siege with ISIS closing in 500 civilians are trying to get across from Kobane into Turkey but only 56 were let through in the last hour (source @sommervillebbc )

Can't understand how this could be happening?

We'd suggest you read http://www.wsm.ie/c/isis-kobane-turkish-western-intervention

----------------------------------------

This is becoming an strictly ideological debate rather than an analysis and a deepening of understanding the situation in Kobane, the Kurdish resistance to ISIS, and impact of the players involved. Though ideology is an important aspect, it can derail the actual conversation to be had. Throwing around "isms" in order to attack another's position is not productive. I have all but stopped reading this threat because it contains so much ideological back and forth, and the back and forth is drowning out the original conversation. Again, ideology is important but when used to attack rather than carry on a conversation I fail to see the point, especially this being libcom (a place you go for in-depth discussion not name calling (that's what anarchistnews.org is for).
I think we get it the PKK and its off shoots are not anarchists, the various groups and off shoots of the PKK are dynamic and are reassessing their political ideology as they fighting a left-wing national liberation struggle (much like many other sympathetic national liberation struggles in history). Now the changes and the struggles that happen along the way will determine what these organizations are and their place along the political spectrum. Sure criticism is valid and needed but I am not reading this thread to be convinced of being a staunch PKK follower or damn the PKK. There is more happening both politically and on the ground in Kobane and the region.

Pennoid

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Pennoid on October 10, 2014

Ocalan has admitted to having sexual relations with "thousands" of women (or maybe it was hundreds) and he just called it free love. They also punished other members for even looking at eachother.

Sounds like typical Maoist gangsterism to me.

I mean anarchism..... anarchism....

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 10, 2014

Pennoid - So now we are attacking the people defending Kobane by digging up Öcalan's "sexual deviance" (meant as a category and sociological term not a full on judgment call). Seriously? Why is this even an interesting or relevant avenue to turn down and discuss?

I am sorry but this sounds like a US senate or presidential campaign advertising tactic used to divert the conversation from anything remotely relevant or interesting.

Pennoid - I am going to go on a little rant here. I apologize before hand.

First consider how many organizations, friendships, and larger regional anarchists networks have had to deal with abusive sexual dynamics and abusive sexual, sexist, and misogynistic occurrences over the years?

How long or what milieu have you been involved in to feel confident enough to begin to conjure up those skeletons without any reaction?

Plenty of people and orgs within the anarchist/autonomist-left have gone through more than enough meetings, processes in figuring out what to do with sexual and sexist predators within their own ranks. I can recall the countless people that have used "free love" as a means to manipulate for their own sexual desires and conquests. I can recall the countless conversation of rape and sexual abuse I have had with people who are part of the anarchist/autonomist network. I can recall the countless amount of times that picking the side of the predator shattered a network or destroyed productivity. Seriously? Öcalan's sexual activity is a key factor in discussing what is happening in Kobane and Kurdistan (well, in regards to this conversation anyways)?

Ideological purity from afar does just that - it keeps you so far away from what is materially and politically relevant that you become lost within the purely ideological battle. The ideological debate has only one conlusion -- you are wrong and I am right. Boring. To attempt to score some political points in a debate by bringing up "sexual deviance"? Come on that's cheap.

Negative sexual social interactions, be it rape or manipulation...etc..., is not a PKK problem, it is not a communist problem, it is not a social democratic problem, it is not an anarchist or autonomist problem -- its a social problem that knows no bounds. All groups deal with sexual issues and problems.

In the spirit of getting a rise out of you, it was Chairman Mao who said that contradictions among the people are not contradictions the create lines of demarcation. Contradictions among the people are avenues for creating change, building solidarity by counteracting those contradictions among the people, and is activity done in order to better fight against the larger contradictions between classes and class actors (or fanatical anti-left organizations). So it sounds like Chairman Mao has something to offer anarchists in how to deal with problems within the people.

Again, supporting the popular resistance in Kobane in particular and Kurdistan in general does not make me a "free loving" brainwashed PKK Stalinist-Maoist Communist cult member. Just as much as not really worrying about the reasons why the US has deployed airstrikes against ISIS does not make me a pro-US agenda imperialist lapdog. The days of black and white, good and bad, and good and evil are long gone, if it ever really existed, because we live in a globally grey world (to grey for anyone to deny any longer).

Again, someone's political conviction and ideological center is not so weak that it shatters based on a discussion concerning Kurdish resistance to ISIS and Kurdish political develops in Kurdistan. If the Kurdish autonomous regions begins to shift towards a more Zapatista style governance (not government!) great! If not, ok fine , that is interesting and lets talk about that too. This discussion and support of resistance in Kobane are not mutually exclusive but to zero in on sex when the discussion is about resistance, then we have lost the ball and are playing a completely different polemical game all together.

You can either look at the world and say all this is super interesting, lets figure out a way to act or you can look at the world with predetermined ideological conclusions and just not act because you already figured out what is to be gained or had because ideology somehow controls the material world or predetermines material and political outcomes. Pure ideological conclusions are much like conspiratorial conclusion -- ignoring reality.

Pennoid

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Pennoid on October 10, 2014

I think that the glorious leader's sexual assaults have a little something to do with a movement widely touted in the popular and anarchist press as being "feminist."

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 10, 2014

Pennoid, I think you missed or just ignored my point.

Anyway, Al Jazerra article quoting an elder man coming from Kobane

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/10/kurdish-voice-from-kobane-battl-201410910315549674.html

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 10, 2014

Also with what is happening in Kobane is politicizing and intensifying the streets outside of Kobane.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/one-passerby-stabbed-another-shot-during-kobane-protests-in-istanbul-suburb.aspx?pageID=238&nID=72753&NewsCatID=341

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/10-people-including-three-police-officers-killed-in-two-turkish-provinces.aspx?pageID=238&nID=72767&NewsCatID=509

political groups are beginning to fight for their politics. I do not see the point in people questioning involvement, at this point involvement is must (for the people in the region).

Leo

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Leo on October 10, 2014

On your (very old) accusations of rape by Ocalan I just said I do not know. But it just sounds fishy as it was only argued by someone who formed his own Kurdish party in opposition to PKK. There is no hardcore evidence or even there is no evidence of women statements who are harmed like this. However if this issue happened we should condemn them and Ocalan for that.

This is not true. This wasn't argued by one dissident, this was argued by all the dissidents who left the PKK - and they were among the founders of this organization. And there is plenty of evidence of women statements who are harmed like this. Of course Ocalan himself doesn't even deny it. In a book written by him in 1992 titled Cozumleme, Talimat ve Perspektifler (Analyses, Orders and Perspectives), he stated: “These girls mentioned. I don't know, I have relations with thousands of them. I don't care how anyone understands it. If I've gotten close with some of them, how should this have been? (…) On these subjects, they leave aside all the real measurements and find someone and gossip, say 'this was attempted to be done to me here' or 'this was done to me there'! These shameless women both want to give too much and then develop such things. Some of the people mentioned. Good grace! They say 'we need it so, it would be very good' and then this gossip is developed (…) I'm saying it openly again. This is the sort of warrior I am. I love girls a lot, I value them a lot. I love all of them. I try to turn every girl into a lover, in an unbelievable level, to the point of passion. I try to shape them from their physique to their soul, to their thoughts. I see it in myself to fulfill this task. I define myself openly. If you find me dangerous, don't get close!”

As for today, being a Kurd living in Turkey, I get mixed with their circles every now and then and aside from hearing many stories have met several victims as well. In many of these cases, as it is with most rape cases, the victims can't even come out. In cases when they do, it is most often them who are blamed rather than the rapists. If you don't want to take my word for it then you don't have to of course.

All they have done will come out though, sooner or later it will come out.

Their "feminist" (they actually call it jinology or "womanology") propoganda isn't aimed at changing any of this. The family is a quite powerful institution in Kurdistan and forces many women into impossible situations where they in the end are forced to flee their homes from family violence or even honor killings. The PKK's propoganda is about them posing themselves as an alternative to the oppression of the family, so that they're the address for all these women who run away. They do it because they need more fighters, however the actual patriarchal familty structure aids them. They have no reason to change the patriarchal family establishment though because if it hadn't been there, those women wouldn't have to run off to the mountains in the first place. Hence their membership too is marked by such values and they have no need or reason to challange that either because, if nothing else, why risk losing the men? All they need, and all they do is to talk vaguely about women's liberation. It creates the desired image to the sufficient degree and as a side effect excites Western leftists.

but I think we should evaluate on the change of opinion of Kurdistan Anarchist Forum as it might provide for us good insights.

They changed their position because they weren't a solid political group anyway. The PKK was a very unpopular organization in Iraqi Kurdistan before due to their actions during the 1991 uprising, which was the reason this group had such a position in the first place. As the PKK's image has been improving, it is completely normal that they've changed their perspective.

Anarchists of Kurdish ethnicity (as well as others) that I know consider "Kurdish anarchist" groups as a form of national anarchism, rightly saying that anarchism can't have national colors.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 10, 2014

national anarchism? could you please clarify? National anarchism could have different meanings.

Leo

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Leo on October 10, 2014

Kurdish anarchism like socialism with Chinese characteristics though obviously not like German national socialism.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 10, 2014

I really do not want to do this, we should not be doing this now under this heading, but here again I am trying to correct some mistakes in the representation of Kurdish Movement.and unfortunately all you know seems to come from this particular link I guess: http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201304/7373/internationalism-only-response-kurdish-issue#_ftnref14

This is not true. This wasn't argued by one dissident, this was argued by all the dissidents who left the PKK - and they were among the founders of this organization. And there is plenty of evidence of women statements who are harmed like this.

who by whom? If you check the webpage linked below in the article you will see the website of Selim Curukkaya. He is the same guy I mentioned in above comments that separated from PKK and founded his own Kurdish movement criticized Ocalan and is killed.
To gain more info I wrote down the name of the book to internet only 6 results come up. first one is the website above 2. is a quotation of it in a web forum kind of website. 3. one is the internationalist website. 4. is again a quote from the first one in revleft website. 5. is afain from the first website. and last one is a website with serious coding problems but it is again the same quote. So basically all i can learn is that Selim Curukkaya once wrote it. But there seems to be no sign of even existence of this book. There is no mention of this book. I am really open to discuss it but I can not find the book. Really and in all honesty, If anyone can supply me with it of some sort I would be happy.But under this conditions I really would like to ask you how are you really sure this is definitely true and well documented there are thousands etc??? How are you sure about it? As I can only find one article that mentions the book and it only quotes like 10 sentences from it? How it is gone? Did PKK erased it from all internet what is it?

As for today, being a Kurd living in Turkey, I get mixed with their circles every now and then and aside from hearing many stories have met several victims as well. In many of these cases, as it is with most rape cases, the victims can't even come out. In cases when they do, it is most often them who are blamed rather than the rapists. If you don't want to take my word for it then you don't have to of course.

What you are a Kurd? and you know this instances?? You are just trying to frame people?? What are you talking about Do I need to believe you everything you say now? Please support your claims do not bullshit (I use this as it was directed to me before so it is ok I guess to use it?) By the way so maybe you read the 1992 book? In what language is it? Do you have it? Do you have any knowledge of it?

They have no reason to change the patriarchal family establishment though because if it hadn't been there, those women wouldn't have to run off to the mountains in the first place.

So women go to hills to fight just because they have bad family lives and they are beaten by their fathers. so they have no political agency, no knowledge of wider political stuff etc.. I guess Kurd woman just stay at home and play with dolls. But suddenly their horrible father beats them so they run away and get tricked to go to hills and fight and die with "shitty weapons" so this is basically your analysis of Kurdish Women's Movement.

Quote:
but I think we should evaluate on the change of opinion of Kurdistan Anarchist Forum as it might provide for us good insights.
They changed their position because they weren't a solid political group anyway. The PKK was a very unpopular organization in Iraqi Kurdistan before due to their actions during the 1991 uprising, which was the reason this group had such a position in the first place. As the PKK's image has been improving, it is completely normal that they've changed their perspective.

So it is totally unrelated that as this group was based on Europe (I guess formed in Europe after these people migrated there for mostly political reasons) and now they come to Rojava to see and experience the Autonomy project. You are totally sure that their being changed their opinion is not due to having experience but just because being non-solid in the first place. Happy for you though as you seem to be really solid as you seem to continue to believe what you believe without any evidence (except an internet article) (They wrote possibly the most detailed analysis about the Autonomy experiment with their own first hand accounts and interviews. Go read it. )

Anarchists of Kurdish ethnicity (as well as others) that I know consider "Kurdish anarchist" groups as a form of national anarchism, rightly saying that anarchism can't have national colors.

I think as you settle the issue for us by saying "they are nationalist anarchists" we can all sleep well now

Leo

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Leo on October 11, 2014

who by whom? If you check the webpage linked below in the article you will see the website of Selim Curukkaya. He is the same guy I mentioned in above comments that separated from PKK and founded his own Kurdish movement criticized Ocalan and is killed.

No, he is not. Selim Curukkaya actually is still alive as he managed to get away and he lives in Europe. Ocalan of course wanted him dead but that's another story.

The person who was murdered was Mehmet Cahit Sener and he lead a split from the PKK called PKK Vejin. He was killed in a joint operation of the Syrian intelligence agency and the PKK. His death was reportedly celebrated in the PKK camps. He was one of the founders of the organization, and one of the famous prison resistors in the Diyarbakir torture house.

To gain more info I wrote down the name of the book to internet only 6 results come up. first one is the website above 2. is a quotation of it in a web forum kind of website. 3. one is the internationalist website. 4. is again a quote from the first one in revleft website. 5. is afain from the first website. and last one is a website with serious coding problems but it is again the same quote. So basically all i can learn is that Selim Curukkaya once wrote it. But there seems to be no sign of even existence of this book. There is no mention of this book. I am really open to discuss it but I can not find the book. Really and in all honesty, If anyone can supply me with it of some sort I would be happy.But under this conditions I really would like to ask you how are you really sure this is definitely true and well documented there are thousands etc??? How are you sure about it? As I can only find one article that mentions the book and it only quotes like 10 sentences from it? How it is gone? Did PKK erased it from all internet what is it?

In English, presumably. If you read Turkish, you'll see that the internet is full of reports of such incidents. You can even find interviews with some of the victims.

As for the book, it used to be available online on a pro-PKK website as a pdf although it seems to have been taken down. Nevertheless, you can see referances to it on several websites and you can read the quote in Turkish here: https://www.newroz.com/tr/forum/331689/apocu-hareketin-lk-kurbanlar-kadinlar-aktar It is also referred to as the December 1992 Analyses (Aralik 1992 Cozumlemeleri).

Luckily, Ocalan's remarks are often compiled into other books so you can find part of the same quote in this book here, starting from page 372: https://rojbas1.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/kurdistanda-kadin-ve-aile.pdf

What you are a Kurd? and you know this instances?? You are just trying to frame people?? What are you talking about Do I need to believe you everything you say now? Please support your claims do not bullshit (I use this as it was directed to me before so it is ok I guess to use it?)

Believe what you want but if you have any direct contact with the radical millieu in Turkey don't claim that you don't know about any of this because everyone here knows.

So women go to hills to fight just because they have bad family lives and they are beaten by their fathers.

Or forced to marry men they don't want to marry, or are afraid of for their lives in honor killings etc.

so they have no political agency, no knowledge of wider political stuff etc..

I'm sure they are generally Kurdish nationalists but a knowledge of wider political issues? No. People tend not to when they are teenagers.

I guess Kurd woman just stay at home and play with dolls.

No, however joining the PKK is not really a good alternative.

But suddenly their horrible father beats them so they run away and get tricked to go to hills and fight and die with "shitty weapons" so this is basically your analysis of Kurdish Women's Movement.

My analysis of the "Kurdish women's movement" is that it doesn't exist, that the PKK is actually a deeply macho and male-dominated organization which doesn't really challange the patriarchal family institution in Kurdistan and its propoganda about liberating women has solely the aim of recruiting the women who have to run away from the horrors of the patriarchy and it thus exploits this situation. Your mockery of the influence of the family in Kurdistan shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 17, 2014

I really did not wished to do but I guess I need to please can I ask the International Communist Current about the validity of the text in their website titled "Internationalism is the only response to the Kurdish issue" Link: http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201304/7373/internationalism-only-response-kurdish-issue#_ftnref1

As this text seems to be the base a lot of people develop their understanding of Kurdish Movement in this forum, I will ask for references and point out the obvious faults in the text:

1)

The eighth party congress of the PKK approved on 16 April 2002 the so-called 'democratic' transformation. Hence, the party would seek 'liberation' through political rights for Kurds in Turkey and renounce violence, even though the current leader of the PKK, Murat Karayilan, still declared in 2007 that an independent state remains the principal objective of the organisation.

This implies PKK still had secret wishes for a nation state in 2007. However there is no reference to it. And on the contrary when I search internet I could only found this interview from 2007: http://istanbul.indymedia.org/tr/news/2007/01/163833.php In which he says exactly the opposite: "our call is not to organize a united Kurdistan"

2) This brings us to women and PKK part: Mehmet Cahit Sener's himself claims Ocalan threat women fighters as his lovers but there is no name, date nothing. There is no real evidence of any of his accusations (check yourself)

3) Selim Curukkaya's accusations that Apo had relations with thousands of women is more oblivious to me the books and reference he make are non-existent in internet only thing that can be found about Ocalan's book called Cozumleme, Talimat ve Perspektifler (1992) can not be found. He only mentions the book quotes like ten sentences. If you search yourself for the book you will find only 5 more pages and that are only pages that make reference or quote from text (use " " by the way otherwise you will see everything that has these three words.) If you search for it in its english name (Analyses, Orders and Perspectives) you will only find internationalism.org website and two more references to it (one of which is the above comment by Leo the other is a refrence in a revleft froum) So basically all I can find about the validity of this issue is not more than 10 websites. Most of them are forums only referencing others. Internationalism.org seems to be responsible to produce an English translation of the name,and the real source is Selim Curukkaya's website and its referenece to a book that nobody actually seems to mention any where in internet. So please decide how reliable is this source? This is like an bilingual island in internet.

------

Unfortunately I could not find any other argument based on something other than how natioanlist and double faced PKK is or what did Rosa Luxemburg said. So it is impossilbe to criticize but this text unfortunately seems to be a source of a lot of proofless biases against PKK and its current ideological position.

It is rather sad that for example part devoted to showing PKK is a deceptive illusion in terms of freedom of women is totally based on (very suspicious) accounts of two men (one of whose reference point itself can not be found) The whole part revolves around three men (including Ocalan). Nobody even needed to find women's account, what they think, what is their relation to such sexist organization.It just seems to written to frame Ocalan (and whole Kurdish movement)

There is no real analysis how Kurdish and Turkish bourgeoisie co-operate and how it oppress the Kurdish working class. These important issues are just jumped over with fancy words without any real references. This makes me think that writers have any real clue how the class operates in the Kurdish struggle

And lastly we are repeatedly called to be open our eyes to their cruel nationalism. The analysis here is so complex it is mind bending: PKK is national so it is bad (you are not convinced? here is a quote from Rosa) what is needed is Internationalism. I really can not comment on this as it is really uninformed account of Bookchinian arguments adopted by Kurdish movement (Neither his concepts nor his ideas are mentioned at all). Unfortunately It just sums the effort spent to analyse any of the current tendencies of the Kurdish movement.

Anyway in short I think this artificial misrepresentation of Kurdish movement caused by this text hopefully will not manage to convince more people in the future.

Pennoid

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Pennoid on October 10, 2014

Mods, banhammer on rape apologists? Does it work like that?

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 11, 2014

Leo:

1)

Mehmet Cahit Sener

Yeah I replied to that above. I also mentioned stuff about killing your own comrades a little more above.

2)

In English, presumably. If you read Turkish, you'll see that the internet is full of reports of such incidents. You can even find interviews with some of the victims.

What report? You mean reports like this: http://arama.hurriyet.com.tr/arsivnews.aspx?id=3886942
But come on You know this is from a news paper whose motto is "Turkey is owned by Turks" (not fictionally it is written everyday under their name in newspaper Hürriyet) This is what I mean by state propaganda.

3) Yeah but these are the same quotes given to same text again again and again, so if you qoute something that means it becomes hard evidence! Even the quote itself is not agressive itself, it is very egoistic maybe but. Come on do we condemn people now just by that, why are we obssesed to prove this without any evidence?

4)

Believe what you want but if you have any direct contact with the radical millieu in Turkey don't claim that you don't know about any of this because everyone here knows.

Sorry where are you? Unfortunately this debates proved me over and over that people can believe in stuff without any proof. Again you are making stuff up! don't do that please.

5)

No. People tend not to when they are teenagers.

Seriously? seriously? people tend not to know? what people, the abstract people that becomes baby, child, teenager, (wo)man elder etc...? Or you mean a Kurdish child in 90's in Istanbul that is educated in a language that is foreign to him/herself, so (s)he constantly becomes alienated from school. Or a Kurdish boy that tries to hide the Kurdish newspaper he delivers from cops. Or a Turkish teenager that is humiliated by cops as his ID indicates he is from Diyarbakır (the capital of Kurdistan) Or child that attacks cops with stones? What you discuss is so far away from any realities of the Kurds situation I really do not get it where are you from? How come you are totally oblivious to all these?

6)

No, however joining the PKK is not really a good alternative.

I am really sick of answering people back that on what right you judge Kurdish women. This debate itself become meaningless. Maybe they act intelligent and ask you what to do you.

7)

My analysis of the "Kurdish women's movement" is that it doesn't exist, that the PKK is actually a deeply macho and male-dominated organization which doesn't really challenge the patriarchal family institution in Kurdistan and its propaganda about liberating women has solely the aim of recruiting the women who have to run away from the horrors of the patriarchy and it thus exploits this situation. Your mockery of the influence of the family in Kurdistan shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.

but how you get such huge amounts of knowledge? maybe out of your ass? This is debated so much times enough is enough. please watch this stupid video I am tired: http://vimeo.com/107639261

And I congratulate you, as now you again managed to accomplish to reply back without anything new. (except finding the quote whose origin can not be found in two more other texts) Still no incident, no policy, no witness to nothing you just continue to shout your totally subjective point as if it is whole of the truth.

Tyrion

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Tyrion on October 11, 2014

These recent posts are really a sad reflection of how even "radicals" are far from free of the toxic influence of patriarchy.

Leo

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Leo on October 11, 2014

Kurremkarmerruk, since you've started saying that even Ocalan's quote admitting his actions is not that bad, you are openly and consciously an apologist for rape and I have no interest in discussing with you any further.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

This is ridiculous.

Any updates on the Kurdish struggle against ISIS?

Tyrion

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Tyrion on October 11, 2014

Yes, objecting to rape apologism and sexual abuse is so ridiculous when there's far more important matters for anarchist men to discuss.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

Oh my god now wanting to discuss the situation in Kobane and Kurdish resistance is about being a rape apologist. And yes, this is still ridiculous (don't get it twisted and try to accuse people of being rape apologists or staunch supporters of one man or his sexual activity).

I am interested in what armed left wing women are doing against ISIS not about Ocalans sexual activities (true or false). I would love to see the commentators on here who are derailing the conversation about Kobane and Kurdish resistance have a discussion with Dilar Dirik.

kurremkarmerruk the Dilar Dirik talk is amazing!

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

Please keep Libcom.org a site for deeper discussion and not trolling or sub-pop-cultural anarchists snippets, please use anarchistnews.org for such internet behavior.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

Dilar Dirik: http://vimeo.com/107639261

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

Tyrion I agree with you, these comments are a sad reflection of lack luster analysis and gross generalizations of an entire dynamic movement that is currently at war with ISIS and defending itself specifically on feminist grounds and yet people have to nerve to simplify their efforts, struggle, and deaths as nothing more than brainwashed cultist sex slaves.

If arming yourself and fighting against extremist reactionary forces is sex slavery then I could only imagine what horror women, anarchist feminists, and pro anarchists feminists (myself included) in the West have to endure in order to be able to look at what is happening in Rojava and think the need to be doing more to fight against sexism.

Again, I am not claiming that any of these leftist groups in the region are free from productive critique but from what I critiques raised here sound more like the Turkish op-ed pieces I read on the issue.

What is troubling is that Turkish rightwing nationalist groups are mounting attacks against minorities and the Kurds are currently fighting ISIS. Sounds like a hot, hot situation.

Does anyone have any good articles or exposes on that Turkish nationalist group wolf something or another...?

bastarx

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bastarx on October 11, 2014

Marx-Trek that entire dynamic movement at war with ISIS includes such staunch defenders of human freedom as the US Navy and Royal Australian Airforce.

Looks like the media have hit on the right formula in this age of identity politics for getting a whole swag of leftists to line up behind US humanitarian military intervention.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

bastarx, we have already covered your statement concerning anyone who is interested and stands in solidarity with the seemingly autonomous fighters in Rojava as being merely US imperialist lapdogs.

Here we go again, I just do not follow the logic that because you support people who are fighting for their own interests and are defending themselves against ISIS is somehow open approval of US capitalist intervention for other motives than revolutionary struggle within the Kurdish region.

Are you political convictions so frail and your need to be the sole actor for "what is right" and if you are not the sole actor or defender of some cause it somehow is cheapened and no longer worthy of support or an attempt to understand it. The people living in the region of Kurdistan were fighting long before ISIS or US airstrikes rained down, and they will continue to fight for their interests long after ISIS is gone. Seriously, the US for its own ends acts and this somehow trumps the desire and worthiness of feminist forces fighting against ISIS? If some fucking nation wanted to drop a bunch of bombs on the reactionary force I was engaged in bloody deadly warfare, good I don't care. After that battle I still would not owe my alligiance to any nation, I would continue to fight against my enemies regardless if they carry the black flag of ISIS with beheadings or they are 19 year old marines thinking they are saving the world.

I am sorry but get some perspective, have an analysis, and attempt to understand what is going on.

With that kind of logic, gays who are not up to your radical pureness should not be even passively supported because at the end of the day they just want to get married and that is nothing more than capitalist patriarchy nonsense. Teachers who want better work conditions and better schools for children should not be supported unless they are pure enough radicals.

Again, I recommend you watch the New World Summit talk on Rojava and read the prior posts on here.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

Anyone got any thing to say about this group or action. I know its from August of this year but still interesting.

http://www.anarsihaber.org/izmirde-rojava-katliamina-karsi-eylem

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

antifa support for Kurdish resistance: http://www.antifa.de/cms/

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 11, 2014

I am outside now. I will translate some news on current situation of protest in turkey now. I am reading this it seems to be very informative http://roarmag.org/2014/10/kurdistan-kobane-turkey-isis/

bastarx

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bastarx on October 11, 2014

If disagreeing with you means I don't have a perspective or analysis then there's no possibility of argument is there?

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 11, 2014

They really startex to do good reporting this roarmaghttp://roarmag.org/2014/10/kobane-human-shields-turke/

teh

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by teh on October 11, 2014

1) Why is women fighting as soldiers supposed to be seen as some sort of egalitarian measure? Is men serving in armies something beneficial to them and/or is egalitarian? In the same light is more women placed in positions in the managerial class or as MPs based on quotas also egalitarian?

2) Where is 'Kurds will be massacred if this one city falls' coming from? Sure combatants that IS refers to a "communists" will be but Kurds as a ethnicity as keeps being suggested- I don't know where this is coming from. IS (as well as Kobanes FSA defenders) targets civilian populations based on sect not ethnicity. IS has Kurds fighting in its army. Maybe not in great as numbers as an ethnic based army like YPG but it hasn't captured as much Kurdish majority territory yet so they haven't gotten a large enough recruitment base yet.

3) The secular army that has been fighting IS for three years now and has allowed Konabe to stay in YPGs hands for this long is the SAA. Why hasn't the passionate defense shown here for the PYG been shown to the Baath government of Syria? The only thing that has prevented the minority sects of Syria from going the way of the 'blacks' of Libya or the Serbs of Croatia is the Syrian government headed by president Assad. Yet apart from some Syrian expatriates and a narrow layer of progeny of the pro-Soviet bloc left in the West most political people have been rooting for the forces trying to overthrow this government. Maybe I don't watch enough Western television (though I think I do) or get too much news stories from a narrow base on Twitter but it seem to me that I've overlooked some media campaign that has been driving this sentiment. Suddenly people are worried about Islamist atrocities and the like. Where was this when Kessab fell? Ok that was with Al-Qaeda and other non-IS jihadist groups that aren't conquering the Western client state in Iraq but is that it? Or is it political support for the PKK?. Coming back to question 2 why are Kurds being equated with PKK. There were a bunch of Islamist groups in Kurdistan attacked by the PKK but the media-and I think here- didn't refer to them as Kurd based, even though they arent any less than the PKK.

4) Why are we supposed to side with the Sunni Kurds against the Sunni Arabs (sticking with the PKK=all legitimate Kurds thesis)? I don't know much about the rural population of Syria where the Islamists come from apart from that supposedly Baath liberalization hurt their lot economically but in neighboring Iraq, where IS is originally from, opposition to the US installed Shia Islamist neocolonial order was crushed by sectarian cleansing culminating in the cleansing of Baghdad during 'the surge.' These people have lived in continuous violence of the West for at least 23 years (and on and off since the Ottomans were destroyed). If they are defeated they- as a people- will suffer greatly. Capturing/controlling the border with a NATO state away from a hostile terrorist organization is crucial for them in this respect.

5) Women have fought on all sides in the Syrian civil war. Women soldiers is not unusual, being used as gi jane pin ups is more rare however. This is what the IDF does, borrowing from via its 'socialist' heritage from the Bolshevik countries of yore. I get the feeling NATO will start to employ this pr gimmick much more prominently too in the not too distant future.
Anyway my point is:
Women traveling to join the YPG in Konabe is presented by some here as heroic - agents changing the material conditions that surround them - and by others as at least worthy of sympathy. Why do the women traveling to join IS not get the same glamor treatment?

Dozens of French teenagers, including a young Jewish girl, have fled the country to join Islamic State militants fighting in Syria and Iraq, French intelligence has revealed. At least 100 girls and young women from France have left to join terrorists in Syria in recent weeks, up from just a handful 18 months ago when the trip was not even on Europe's security radar

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2787892/jewish-girl-joined-isis-french-intelligence-official-reveals-dozens-teenagers-fled-syria-iraq-france-horror-families.html
Now granted they are presented in this news piece as- you guessed it- sex slaves and not soldiers but I wouldnt give it too much credence. As kurremkarmerruk said about the YPG: "People go there voluntarily. People fight there with "bad" weapons not because they are stupid morons or sex slaves or romantics etc. They go there and fight because to have establish a better future. And if this requires war than so be it. They are not PR." And to flip Marx-Treks quote one could only imagine what horror women in the West have to endure in order to be able to look at what is happening in Syria-Iraq and think of the need to go there to join up.

Leo

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Leo on October 11, 2014

Having sufficiently established the patriarchal history of the PKK and the true aims of its propoganda related to the gender issue, lets move on to other points.

In another thread, the words of Salih Muslim, the leader of the PYD calling for the expulsion of the Arabs from Syrian Kurdistan was quoted. I will add to this the words of Bese Hozat, the co-chairwoman of the KCK (the main roof organization of the PKK and other groups around it) and Ocalan himself attacking the Armenian and Greek "lobbies" (http://t24.com.tr/yazarlar/aris-nalci/ermeni-lobisi-ve-paralel-devlet,8274). It was a shock for their leftist supporters since people are generally used to hearing such statements from the Turkish nationalists. Of course it is known that there was a significant Kurdish participation in the genocide against the Armenians and other non-muslim minorities in 1915 so it is not very surprising. Also is the fact that the PKK has traditionally had a position against the Zaza people, considering them Kurdish and condemning them whenever they describe themselves as a separate ethic group to the Kurds (In the interview here, for instance, Ocalan is saying that "Gladio" developed Zazaism against the PKK http://haber.sol.org.tr/devlet-ve-siyaset/ocalan-benim-yapacaklarim-bitti-haberi-44956).

There is also the fact that in September 2014, the YPG (the army of Syrian Kurdistan) signed a treaty with several Syrian opposition groups, including Jihadist groups and formed the Euphrates Volcano. (http://www.ozgur-gundem.com/index.php?haberID=118383&haberBaslik=YPG%20ve%20%C3%96SO%20%27ortak%20eylem%20merkezi%27%20kurdu&action=haber_detay&module=nuce) Among these groups are the Al-Tawhid Brigade which has ties with the Muslim Brotherhood, Liwa Thuwwar al-Raqqa which is a splinter group from the Al Nusra Front (that is the Syrian Al Qaeda), Liwa al-Jihad fi Sabeel Allah which translates as Jihad in the Path of God Brigade, the Jarablus Brigade which has an Ottoman style logo including a Turkish flag. Earlier they had signed a peace treaty with the Al Nusra Front itself (http://www.diyarbakirhaber.gen.tr/guncel/el-nu-ra-ve-ypg-bari-anla-ma-i-yapti-h2399.html). What the PYD is doing in Kobane in particular and in the Syrian Kurdistan specifically is defending the area it has taken control of, not defending any principles. They are quite willing to work with Islamists and Jihadists who'd be massacring minorities and heretics and degrading women like the ISIS is doing now if they came to power. So the war in Syria is between radical Islamists and a coalition of Kurdish nationalists and other radical Islamists. Not that supporting the Kurdish nationalists would be alright if they weren't allied with other Jihadists against the ISIS - rather that this example demonstrates the true political character of the Kurdish nationalists. As for their fans in Turkey and abroad, this turns supporting the "Rojava revolution" into supporting the lesser of two radical Islamist evils.

And what exactly is the "Rojava revolution"? In reality, it is not a revolution in any way - the PYD didn't even overthrow anyone to take power. Rather it was left to them as the largest Kurdish party in the region as Assad's army withdrew from Syrian Kurdistan. The constitution of Syrian Kurdistan "guarantees the right to property and private property" (point 41), aims for "the strengthening of national soveirgnity". In fact for all the rhetoric of being against nation-states, a quite traditional nation state has been organized in Western Kurdistan, with its army (the YPG), police (Asayis), ministeries and bureaucracy. It's true that the constitution isn't a parliamentary democracy. To be honest, with the immense cult of personality around Ocalan, de-facto power in the hands of the PYD and the attempt to have a show of "direct democratic" processes, the "democratic autonomy" practiced in Western Kurdistan seems most similar to Qaddafi's Libya to me. And the new PYD regime, for all its talk of "democracy" and "democratic modernity" is in no way tolerant of dissent: in 2013, the YPG opened fire to a group of demonstrators in the city of Amude, killing several and injuring many (http://www.kurdistanaktuel.com/Arsiv/haberler/kuerdistan/12495-amude-katliami-10-oelue.html).

All these are of course rather typical of national liberation movements. Here we see a political organization which came to power in agreement with the Syrian state, which has a deeply patriarchal nature and history, has voiced dangerous slogans towards other ethnic groups and has allied with Islamists and Jihadists, which organized itself as a state with its own army, police, ministeries, which defends private property is not in any meaningful way opposed to capitalism, which is dominated by a cult of personality and which is quite brutal against any sort of dissent, going as far as shooting demonstrators. This maybe enough for leftists who fantasize about guns and revolutions by decree, however it is nothing but another nationalist armed gang participating in a disastorous war devestating the lives of all the workers in Syria, regardless of whether they are Kurdish or Arabic, Muslim or Christian, Sunni or Shia.

mikail firtinaci

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 11, 2014

In addition to Leo's excellent post, here is a new proof of PKKs collaboration with islamists and other reactionary forces: a journalist recently reported that 8 FSA brigades are fighting with PYD in Kobane. The "moderate islamists" of the FSA are those who massacre or threaten to massacre the Alawites, Shias, and Christians in Syria.

Here is the source:

http://www.radikal.com.tr/yazarlar/fehim_tastekin/egit_donat_bir_batak_hikaye_daha-1217979

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

bastarx, its not that you cannot disagree, it is rather that the issue you raised has already been addressed and you seem to have chosen to not answer or critique mine and other's previous responses to that very critique concerning US airstrikes. Its not much of a discussion if you choose to no respond to mine and other's answers to your critique or statements now is it? My comments about getting perspective and analysis goes further and criticizes your position and accusing such a position for lack analysis and perspective. So if you really want to discuss your issues with US led airstrikes, please reread the earlier posts and the latter. Address your concerns and critiques and then I can respond. However, its impossible to have a discussion when your posts do not say much of anything. Please go deeper and explain your position.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 11, 2014

To Leo and Mikail:

Here me again defending the Kurdish movement once more. However I really realized this whatever I say, you will just be sure truthfulness of your conviction (like on the rape accusations or thousand women accusation) moreover you will change the subject (like you do now for example Zaza issue or Armenian genocide) and take a quote out of its context or come up with a very old position of PKK that is changed in last decade to frame whats going on in Kobane as an illegitimate action of an reactionary organization.

I actually would not give a damn about what you said if this was a Turkish forum. However as most of the people in this forum lack the language to reach important resources and thus can not check the validity of your (and mine of course) resources I feel obliged to reply back and show the other side.

The accusations made here has the potential to grow as wrong misconceptions. It is now my conviction that this is also your purpose. I actually started to think to associate this with the illegitimate act of censorship of Internationalist Communist poster (discussed in a earlier comment). I think what we are witnessing here is another lesson for political movements not to be restrictive and authoritarian upon others. However I think Internationalist Communist current members unfortunately decided to reply back to this very bad act not by way of producing and organizing in a much more libertarian way.

On the contrary they decided to reply back to this by producing one-sided and manipulative reports and comments of Kurdish movement and try to shame them in the most powerful places they could (and it is this website I guess). There is a saying in Turkish meaning, roughly translated as: "A mad man throws a stone to a well and 40 intelligent men could not bring it out." Unfortunately the insensible actions of these Kurdish students are now came back as this misrepresentation of Kurdish movement to wider public and I feel like no rational argumentation, no appeal to proof will help "bringing it back". International communists seem so decided that PKK is a nationalist and anti-working class movement that any argument to contrary (of their egalitarianism, direct democracy and all of these recent changes) is neglected. Let's hope this mindless and proofless of accusations by International Communists will not throw to another stone to another well (that is the Kurds) and alienate them from Internationalist or communist struggle.

I will answer all these new accusations in the follow up comment and this will be the last time if no new "issue" is not invented about Kurdish movement.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 11, 2014

To Mikail:

n addition to Leo's excellent post, here is a new proof of PKKs collaboration with islamists and other reactionary forces

Come on please don't do this again? What is your plan then: Should they decide to kill each and every "reactionary force in the region? Except them who they can cooperate in their desperate situation ? Should they just lie down before ISIS? Or launch a suicidal attack to all sides at once? Or maybe it would be better for them if they would be "good" kurds and do nothing? Nothing at all?

This is just totally insufficient to decide on a real political agenda of a group. I repeat my bet: Are you willing to reconsider your position according to result of this war? I argue if PYD survives this bloodbath, even if makes any cooperation with any of the powers involved: THey will not give up their most basic Autonomist principles. I also wish to name three of them: 1) Their co-leader system and systematic positive discrimination 2)Their autonomy (cantons) and Confederate organization of them 3) Their internal constitution (of Cantons) will be secular and will not have ethnic reference ( I mean will not declare it is a Kurdish caton etc.)

So basically: I underline the fact that they are the only group there that has at least a little chance to realize and makes lives of many people better and open up a better future for all of the left in global scale. I am sure that they will never give up at least these three principles (as opposed to strategic stuff you mention above, as what you say is basically means, an instance of war: What I emphasize is political principles of an organization) If you are so sure about your convictions why not you challenge me?

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

Teh - I have chosen to answer many different issues and people's prior comments by addressing them in your format of 5 sections. This post is not a total attack against your position. If it comes off as such I didn't mean it in that way and apologize.

1.) Women in positions outside of the traditional woman's role is it more egalitarian? Well , I would say both yes and no. Yes, I think it is pretty obvious in that if different bodied categories and social categories are required representation that there is more of a chance that the issues specific to such groups will more then likely be heard, raised, dealt with, etc... Also, I think there is something to be said about a society's view on gender and the sexes if women are less compartmentalized into certain roles. For instance, and I will make broad comparisons to make 4 points:

(a) There are way more women Chinese executives , leaders, and women in positions of authority in "communist china" than in Western countries due Chinese urban life being more neutral on the issue; Israeli women fight in their armed forces along side men without much discussion because Israel is more neutral on the issue of gender; The Black Panther Party had a more neutral view on gender and women worked along side men in a more equal environment; Women in the Zapatistas and Chiapas work and struggle alongside men in a more equal environment; radical leftist and anarchists groups have, at times, organized and structured their groups with a need for large percentage of women within the group to maintain representatives of women's needs and issues withing organizing; and as in Spain 1936-39 the various armed militias contained women's brigades.

(b) now, as your statement suggests, such methods of building groups and organizing women is not a guarantee that feminism or gender equality will reign undisturbed within a society or organization. Furthermore, putting women into the armed forces of a political project does not automatically guarantee that gender equality will be established. A specific body, the women body, in itself does not conjure feminists improvements to reality. Women themselves can even uphold patriarchy. I believe you agree with me on that point, seeing that such a critique appears to be very strong concerning the Kurdish resistance. Though I have not read much about the issue, there even appears to be women's organizations, why woudln't there be, within the larger ultra-conservative militant islamic social current. So women involvement, even armed women involvement, does not guarantee feminist conclusions and feminist improvements in daily life.

Which brings up the third point,

(c) Hence the existence of feminism. Feminism is a political and social analysis that comes up with various conclusions on how to interact with people from an individual level on up to a political level. Feminism or pro-women's analysis that critiques and combats the negative, and at times deadly, impact of sexism (etc...) upon women and society is not solely concerned with putting more women into positions of power or authority ,but instead changing how societies interact and view women. Acknowledging that there are many forms of feminism out there, I assume that since we are discussing this in a revolutionary/radical/insurrectionary/communist/anarchist way we do not need to delve any deeper on that issue. Point being, in relation to the fighting women of Kurdistan (or Kurdish autonomy) is that they are not mere statistics within the militias or armed wings of politics but something more. Their positions within the militia are organized specifically along feminist lines with a feminist analysis of society in general and the organizations needs in particular. Again, I am still confused why this specific issue is so contested with respect to the Kurds fighting for autonomy (an that autonomy seemingly becoming more similar to Chiapas than national self-determination). I do not relate to or understand the almost conspiratorial conclusions being drawn here that all this "feminism" within the Krudish region, Rojava specifically, is just some rouse or mere propaganda to further sexually abuse women as some have suggested or further deepen the patriarchal ties between men and women (being the more logical argument against Kurdish feminism).

and,

(d) and I will openly and gladly concede the point that women's involvement does nto guarantee a feminist project or conclusion. However, could it be that people are not being fetishistic about armed women fighting? Rather, could it be that people see in those representatives of armed struggle a struggle worth understanding and taking a deeper look? Could it be that these armed women are not merely fetishized but are glorified for their efforts in a fight against an extremely sexist organization (ISIS) and who have been fighting sexism in the region long before ISIS was a blip on the radar?

Now, of course all of this does not guarantee anything or guarantee a glorious feminist revolution in the region or in any part of the world for that matter. But again, I am highly skeptical of the position being upheld on this forum that this Kurdish feminism is something less only becomes it steams from the politics of the Kurdish region. That in itself seems like a strange conclusion.

However, I could understand that the region is so ripe with sexism and violent patriarchal interactions that in order for women to protect themselves a fighting force was needed to be built in order to combat it (something that we seem to not need here in the West, activism seems to do the job that armed women in Kurdistan are doing for themselves).

Again, and of course, none of this if true guarantees anything. But yet again, why is such a strong critique needed to be levied against the women fighting and their organizations? For the most part all I see coming from this polemical position is that these women are not quite good enough for even passive support or empathy because their political current is not exactly in line with ours.
That conclusion seems to be a mere theoretical exercise more so than an analysis of the situation on the ground.

2.) Kurds, for better or for worse, in a political and social context is a term that represents the aspirations of Kurdish liberation (whatever that liberation looks like) and therefore is a social category that has political and social implications. Much like the political and social terms: American, Arab, Jew,Christian,etc... ISIS even has Americans and Brits within its ranks, but does that somehow completely change the political and social context of "America" or "American"? Of course not. So the same for "Kurds". The Kurds fighting in ISIS are not political Kurds but are ethnic Kurds who are fighting to establish a Caliphate not some left wing type Kurdish region. Despite all of that the terms themselves still have social and political meaning. White American men who wish to allign themselves with ISIS or ultra-conservative political Islam are more than welcome to do so, this however does not change the fact that the term "America" is still a political term that describes American in a generalized manner. Hence, "America". Come on, even anarchists and American anarchists use the term "America" to roughly mean the same thing that ISIS or any jihadi groups uses. Why are we discussing such basic semantics. I think this point is more a semantics argument than a political one. I am interested in discussing the issues, actions, and politics on the ground. I am not interested in either side, you or I, attempting to simply win an argument as if this was some debate with the conclusion of one side winning. I want understanding and critique not semantics or purely ideological arguments or conclusion. Those types of discussions are fruitless. Such a debate could then be about anything, because at that point the topic itself is moot and the only thing that matters is this debate. Not interested.

3.) some valid issues are raised among questions and issues that have already been discussed (see above and previous posts on those issues). However, with respect to questions about supporting PKK and the "sudden concern with Islamic atrocities" is a newer issue raised that can be further discussed.

(a) With respect to supporting the PKK either outright or simply in a passive manner (where I find myself not absent with reservations) are important distinctions and something that each individual commentator and political actor in the world needs to address for themselves. Since I am not an autonomous-leftist who needs every political organization to reflect ideology extremely close to my own before giving token support, I allow myself the simple pleasure of viewing the resistance in the Kurdish region in a more favorable light than negative light. Sure I have concerns and more questions than answers. However, I still do not see the dramatic polemic being generated on this forum.

(b) Why are we so concerned with people "all of a sudden" being so concerned with Islamic atrocities?

(i) I think at the basic level, this counter to people being concerned goes back to what I view as a very abstract and alienated view that somehow discussing Kurdish resistance as being a lapdog for US imperialists interests. Sure, if and when the Kurdish resistance has allied itself with the US and fought for specific US regional interests that is problematic. Besides the 1991-92 Kurdish rising against the Iraqi State/Saddam Hussein, I do no see many examples of clear allegiance to US interests in the region. Even with the 1991-92 rising, I am not convinced that was in futherance of US interests either, more opportunism and betrayal if anything. Sure, opportunistic fighting and opportunism as a political strategy can be problematic. Again, I do not really see the need for such adamant negativity towards the Kurdish resistance. Critique and questions are always necessary but why such hostility?

(ii) I think the "all of a sudden" contempt for Islamic atrocities is just a political reality of the current climate and political conditions we, the world, find ourselves in. Despite, right or wrong, we have to pick our battles and critiques wisely to not allow ourselves to be viewed as islamophobic in the West. Such as, there would be real concerns if leftists allied themselves and began marching in EDL (English Defense League) marches to protest against, just as much it was problematic after 9/11 as American leftists to criticize Islam outright because the environment was so extremely anti-Islam and anti-Arab. Here it seems we agree on this issue and agree that people need to be aware of what they are saying and in what context and with whom the align themselves. But we obviously disagree not only over the degree of support, whether token or open support, that should be given to the women, anarchists, and people fighting in the Kurdish region. However, I will admit, my concerns of Islamic atrocities is not something new but now in the Kurdish context I can become more vocal over the dangers and backwardness of Islamic fundamentalism. I can become more vocal because now that a force opposing such views has emerged on the world stage and it cannot be automatically be lumped into pro-West pro-capitalist interests. Seemingly, seemingly, commentators for some reasons are doing precisely just that. And again, I am confused as to why that is. The world is more than the West and Islamic binary. That binary wants to polarize the world in such a manner and I absolutely disagree with that logic.

A similarity can be drawn here to the various organizations that fight for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Though I do not ultimately agree with Hamas nor do I share their world view, I still understand their desire to fight against Israel and defend Palestinians. Further, I understand though do not wholeheartedly agree why Palestinians would support Hamas because they represent and are one of the strongest groups that will fight and stand up against Israel. Now, that does not make me a staunch Hamas combatant supporter. Then we have the PFLP, a leftist non-islamic fighting force for Palestinians against Israeli occupation. Interesting and more aligned with my worldview. Again, I am not a total supporter of PFLP, dont know enough to make such a conclusion, however I will not damn them for fighting or people who join.

(4) sure, ok, interesting geopolitical concerns and would be an interesting future discussion. Perhaps people could stop the sex slave, sex abuse, and US imperialist lapdog arguments and maybe point 4 could be further discussed.

(5) women fighting, feminism, and gender has already been addressed above and in earlier posts. and yes your concerns for oversimplifying feminism and women with guns is a valid concern. However, think about the impact of any image portraying armed struggle and armed women's struggle and ask yourself what those images convey and mean to you. I don't think this specific point is all the specific to Kurdish women or radical women in general. Che, Marcos, Lenin, Khaled, Palestinian children with slingshots, antifa posters, feminists posters, etc...

Finally!

Now granted they are presented in this news piece as- you guessed it- sex slaves and not soldiers but I wouldnt give it too much credence. As kurremkarmerruk said about the YPG: "People go there voluntarily. People fight there with "bad" weapons not because they are stupid morons or sex slaves or romantics etc. They go there and fight because to have establish a better future. And if this requires war than so be it. They are not PR." And to flip Marx-Treks quote one could only imagine what horror women in the West have to endure in order to be able to look at what is happening in Syria-Iraq and think of the need to go there to join up.

Fair enough and thanks for actually writing something with substance and presenting an articulated argument that could be responded to.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

Also, some quick wiki reading got my attention concerning the Turkish Grey Wolves (a right wing turkish nationalist if just outright neo-fascist organization). They appear to have had CIA training back during Cold War years and appear to still be openly hostile to Kurdish political interests and ethnicity in general. If were are to discuss US interests in the region I think this history would be an interesting sidebar discussion concerning Kurdish resistance and Kurdish politics.

mikail firtinaci

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 11, 2014

Kurremkarmerruk:

I am not in a pissing contest with you here. I simply want to understand myself, and discuss with others what PKK really is, and what is its role in the current ethno-religious sectarian massacres in the Middle East.

So far, your defense of PKK was solely based on the alleged Bookchinism of the PKK. Hence, you claimed that it has to be defended. So, for a promised self-managed Kurdish municipality in Kobane, the international left is asked to lend its support to PKK. To me even as a clear bait this is too little for a promise. Nobody who is defending PKK is giving clear and convincing answers to those questions:

1- If PKK/PYD is really a secular force defending different minorities, why PYD is in a coalition with the murderous FSA gangs?

2- If PKK is an "independent" force why is it asking for a US bombardment? Why PKK is demanding NATO weapons?

3- If PKK is really led by the rank-and-file, why it still acts under the orders of Ocalan - who is basically an asset in the hands of the Turkish Republic? In fact, who gives the orders? Who decides the policy changes?

4- If PKK/PYD is "communalistic," why then in the Rojeva constitution it is stated that the administration's goal is to preserve and protect private property?

All the evidences clearly show that PKK is a reactionary and anti-working class force, which do not hesitate even for a moment to push the Kurdish youth, women, and proletariat into a bloody massacre rather than losing its own political grip over them. The only contrary evidence presented is the PKKs sudden "bookchinist" turn; a turn that was artificially imposed by Ocalan over the party, when he was in prison; and this sudden turn came after Ocalan's trial in which he clearly said that he was willing to serve the Turkish Republic by all means at his disposal, as a humble servant of the state. And albeit this sudden and cynical "libertarian" turn, PKK still doesn't for a moment stop calling Ocalan as "the leadership", which is -of course- "unquestionable" and "indisputable".

No single answer to those questions... There are only contradictions... And you expect that the magic word, "democracy" would do the trick and clear the doubts? Sorry, I just don't buy that...

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

AK Press's facebook ( https://www.facebook.com/AKPress ) just posted book: Democractic Autonomy in North Kurdistan ( http://new-compass.net/publications/democratic-autonomy-north-kurdistan ) and several links discussing Kurdistan (Kurdish resistance). I just ordered it. Perhaps a worth a read...

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 11, 2014

Hi again Leo, nice to see your totally irrelevant (to topic) attack on Kurdish movement again. It is always a pleasure (no just kidding it is not, don't do it again please)

As I sated in above comment I feel obliged to correct the mistakes (and one-sidedness) you made in your recent comment about Kurdish movement. As I am afraid it might reproduce your bias toward in other people.

Having sufficiently established the patriarchal history of the PKK and the true aims of its propaganda related to the gender issue, lets move on to other points.

no you still did not? You still fail to mention a case. your whole argument is still basically consist of attacks made by three man to frame others (Ocalan, Curukkaya and Sener) They call themselves rapist and immoral person etc. without no real proof or anything.

I will not speak about this anymore, as anyone can make up his mind reading the discussion so far.

In another thread, the words of Salih Muslim, the leader of the PYD calling for the expulsion of the Arabs from Syrian Kurdistan was quoted

You mean the Discussion I had with Mikail on Autonomy Experiment? I also showed with links to interviews he is not anti-arab. he even says we organized quotes for representation of every ethnicity in our Cantons. I mentioned it in comments. And you know, you know Turkish man why do you try to manipulate discussions. Why you are determined to misrepresent? It really reached an unbelievable level for me now?

Ocalan himself attacking the Armenian and Greek "lobbies"

This is totally true.and It was criticized by Kurds and leftists however even in the link (http://t24.com.tr/yazarlar/aris-nalci/ermeni-lobisi-ve-paralel-devlet,8274) you provided the writer mentions HDP (legal party related to Kurdish movement) Even if you search the net you would find his "explanations": (This is from an Turkish Armenian newspaper) http://www.agos.com.tr/haber.php?seo=bese-hozat-lobi-sozlerine-aciklik-getirdi&haberid=6473
In it "he clearly says he does not condemn people. It is true that the history of Armenians' is one of genocide victims. He wished only to mean the top elite etc..." Why do you only selectively report.

Of course it is known that there was a significant Kurdish participation in the genocide against the Armenians and other non-muslim minorities in 1915 so it is not very surprising.

Now what you do here is the hugest lie so far. 1) So in what sense the Kurds' participation in genocide relates to PKK? did PKK made it? 2) Don't you know PKK was the earliest political organization that recognised, condemned and excused for Armenian Genocide?? If you are so into Turksih politics and you are a Kurd how come you don't know it? This is pretty much the basic fact known by all leftists in Turkey. PKK actually made the best example of issue. They even accepted the obvious Kurdish participation in it without hesitation. 3) And because of this very important figures of critical official history academicians and genocide studies scholars for example Prof. Büşra Ersanlı and Ragıp Zarakolu (who are imprisoned for their views, as it is still forbidden to say there is genocide in Turkey) side with Kurdish movement.

This really showed me you lied. Even if you are a Kurd you are totally oblivious to real political stance of PKK.

Again we are discussing another completely different issue: Let's discuss Zaza issue (under this topic about Kobane)

Also is the fact that the PKK has traditionally had a position against the Zaza people,

Yeah again it is true however the key word here is traditionally.. For example it is part of the party programme of HDP that the education in Zaza language should be provided in state schools. There is a Zaza organization in HDP. Nobody denies that Kurdish movement was decidedly nationalist and hierarchical in its first 15 years of so. However they are changing their position on it. and this is why the presidency candidate of Kurdish movement win in Dersim (an ethnically Zaza City.) Why you deny to comment on these new developments?

at the PYD is doing in Kobane in particular and in the Syrian Kurdistan specifically is defending the area it has taken control of, not defending any principles.

The same argument made by Mikail. Please read my above comment. I want to challenge you (in hopes of at least getting something really discussed after all these events) that they will not give up their principles for anything. You are welcome to make your own predictions etc. If you are so sure about it please contribute.

And what exactly is the "Rojava revolution"?

I think this paragraph is actually good and important point. I have much knowledge of. all I know is this there are also parties in Rojava that are supported by Iraq Kurdish Region, however their policies are reactionary they do not have good (but not totally worse also) relations with PKK. I think they accused them because of it. I am not a supporter that progressive organisations should much have tolerance for reactionary opinions in themselves. However I lack any real knowledge of events so yeah basically you can be right on this point. I really wish that we could focus on stuff like making real critiques of how the democratic model could be improved.

All these are of course rather typical of national liberation movements. Here we see a political organization which came to power in agreement with the Syrian state, which has a deeply patriarchal nature and history, has voiced dangerous slogans towards other ethnic groups and has allied with Islamists and Jihadists, which organized itself as a state with its own army, police, ministeries, which defends private property is not in any meaningful way opposed to capitalism, which is dominated by a cult of personality and which is quite brutal against any sort of dissent, going as far as shooting demonstrators.

Unfortunately if we have to have such high standards (by the way do you aware these are mostly ethical, normative super-imposed standards) to support, (even in a relative way) then it means there is nothing to support in this world.It is totally insensitive to life.Still worst I think it is really judgmental for anyone (individual or collective) that wishes to act. An act I think it has no right to do so.

This maybe enough for leftists who fantasize about guns and revolutions by decree, however it is nothing but another nationalist armed gang participating in a disastorous war devestating the lives of all the workers in Syria, regardless of whether they are Kurdish or Arabic, Muslim or Christian, Sunni or Shia.

Unfortunately what I see here is total abstraction of class from any particularity that is imminent to human life.It is no surprise that the worker subject you desperately seek for did never raised in the region. (Class as a universal, as an abstaraction) I hope you a satisfactory life seeking it.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

Mikail have you watched the Dilar Dirik video posted? I think Dirik's talk begins to shed some light on your concerns.

1.) I am not keen on this and cannot speak on the issue with certainty. First, are the two forces joining together and forming one political and military fighting force or are they engaged in battles against the same battlefield enemies?

2.) Are the Kurdish forces willing to take arms from the West (NATO, US) in order to fight for their own interests or are they asking for weapons in exchange for a complete ideological turn around and are willing to accept weapons and bombardments in exchange for giving up their own agenda? Again, this seems all to simplistic of a critique. How many times does the issue of US airstrikes have to be raised? OK the use bombarded ISIS, how in anyway does that change the political and social developments in "autonomous Kurdistan"? Its one thing to take weapons, orders, and represent interests from another government and quite another to welcome airstrikes against your enemy (despite who and why those airstrikes happen). Can we please move past this point and circular arguing.

3. Again, watch or rewatch the Dirik video where she describes the political changes, such as the development of "dual leadership" or whatever it was called (and please spare us the semantic rants on "leadership").

4. Concerning Private Property.

Article 41 & 71 of The Constitution of the Rojava Cantons:

Article 41

Everyone has the right to the use and enjoyment of his private property. No one shall be deprived of his property except upon payment of just compensation, for reasons of public utility or social interest, and in the cases and according to the forms established by law.

and,

Article 71

Searches of houses and other private property must be done in accordance with a properly executed warrant, issued by a judicial authority.

I think it is an interesting aspect of the Constitution that could be further discussed. But from my quick glance at the entire Constitution and the articles concerning property and private property, there appears to be clear differentiation between personal private property and resources and things that are considered private property within modern capitalist system.

For example:

Article 39

Natural resources, located both above and below ground, are the public wealth of society. Extractive processes, management, licensing and other contractual agreements related to such resources shall be regulated by law.

and,

Article 42

The economic system in the provinces shall be directed at providing general welfare and in particular granting funding to science and technology. It shall be aimed at guaranteeing the daily needs of people and to ensure a dignified life. Monopoly is prohibited by law. Labor rights and sustainable development are guaranteed.

Now, as I am reading/skimming through the Rojava Constitution I am automatically weary because we see how systems such as the United States which has a Constitution but makes daily practice of eroding said Constitution. However, on its face the Rojava Con is dramatically different from the US Con, highly more socialistic in how it describes key economic aspects and factors of a society. Again, I think you missed the point being made in the Rojava Con concerning "private property". Again, your argument is more about the actual words being used than the point behind those words, what the words are actually attempting to express.

Though the Rojava Con would be another very interesting conversation, a very relevant conversation to have, but please refrain from making gross generalization and over simplifying the discussion (oh no! the words private property are used.)

Point being, from what I read and see in context to the whole Rojava Con concerning "private property" the Constitution means something that closely resembles what I consider "personal property". I would hope that you dont want to live in some anarchist/communist society where your car, bike, clothes, or food on your plate cold be used by anyone else at any moment simply because you are completely against the private property as a notion in any of its iterations or forms.

For me, I am more interested in seeing how this will develop in practice and since it seems to be written down as a general principal in Rojava I think its more a protection of one's house or things used and not about protecting the private ownership of say the river by damning it and creating the resource into a commodity to be produced, bought, and sold for the creation of surplus value. Which I think is of more importance to attack as a concept of "private property".

Again, what will develop and how it will function and what Rojava will look like in 1 month, 1 year, or 10 years will determine the forwardness and socialistic aspects of that society and its Constitution.

Its pretty clear for just giving the Rojava Constitution a quick read that it is way beyond any Modern liberal capitalist Constitution. Now will this usher in an anarchist utopia or is this some stage in communization, I won't comment on that now, dont know enough about it, but on its face and what I have read and heard over the last 24 hrs., all that lays way more weight on this discussion than you and others constant comments that rest on the same arguments over and over.

This is becoming quite repetitive. Instead of shifting to now back to criticizing the feminisms of the region or the military strategy or Ocalan's sexual activities could instead comment on my or anyone else's response to your concerns or comments.

I really do appreciate your latest post because it moves the discussion forward.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 11, 2014

Mikail:

1- If PKK/PYD is really a secular force defending different minorities, why PYD is in a coalition with the murderous FSA gangs?

2- If PKK is an "independent" force why is it asking for a US bombardment? Why PKK is demanding NATO weapons?

3- If PKK is really led by the rank-and-file, why it still acts under the orders of Ocalan - who is basically an asset in the hands of the Turkish Republic? In fact, who gives the orders? Who decides the policy changes?

4- If PKK/PYD is "communalistic," why then in the Rojeva constitution it is stated that the administration's goal is to preserve and protect private property?

Yeah I started to write replies one by one and I realized it won't do any good. I think your position lacks any understanding politics as a social process,so it just becomes a pure abstraction it is like an imperative to be held ( Anything that is politically valuable must be: 1 and 2 should not be polluted with any relation to any un-communist element. 3 must be totally democratic once and for all. 4 must abolish capitalism immediately [this is at least what you demand from Rojova])

I guess you are totally against any separation between aims and means, right? And you persistently apply it to your political life and practice? As I said above you equate a strategy, a means, a small term arrangement with an end. This is not a possibility, well basically because it would kill you! You basically demand impossible measures to be met from a small experiment. But this is why I am repeatedly saying that let the time settle it. If the Kobane lives, I am sure it will develop the most progressive organization in the region and its inspiration will possibly help others.

Your understanding of politics or political action has no time in it it just wants the immediate perfection from the day one. This makes you blind to the fact that PYD's constitution is a huge progressive force that could show the world that a society itself can build itself. ıt obviously has no even comparable alternative for a progressive and moreover Kurdish movement is (and maybe because of effects of Ocalan) is the only source that can really realize such an progressive constitution. In short PYD now holds (possibly) the best formulation of a relation between a social consciousness (and its collective power to action) and a progressive political project in the context of the region. It is this fragile, dangerous and hard to reach relation (in praxis) that is inspiring people.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

And a point that seems to have been completely lost here. Local anarchists and regional anarchists in the area have joined in the fight against ISIS in solidarity with Kurdish resistance, it seems completely counter intuitive to not give them the benefit of the doubt to see their actions as worthwhile and an interesting development in the region. Since as far as I can remember, politically speaking, from about 1991, this is the first time I have witnessed anarchists along with other leftists mounting a resistance and beginning to create and build something different. Again, I am very confused as to why local Kurdish and Turkish anarchists actions, view points, and political decisions are just being so quickly dismissed. I mean this entire thread/post was started because anarchists in the region are beginning to fight for something and in solidarity and its just being glossed over and dismissed. Why? Of course we should not abandon our own perspectives and just defer to players on the ground, but jesus, some benefit needs to be given. Right?

If we continue on with this type of logic and analytical conclusions then no cause or fight is worthy of support other than our own...

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

Also, I want to thank everyone for having this discussion despite our frustrations and friction because it has motivated me to further explore the developments in the Cantons and the Kurdish resistance.

kurremkarmerruk, thank you for posting links to awesome sources of info. That Dirik talk was pretty awesome.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 11, 2014

Marx-Trek:

Thanks, I really appreciated your discussions.

All:

By the way I am sorry if I get lost in the head of debate. My initial wish was actually to (at least to my mind) correct some mistakes in representation of Kobane and Turkish anarchists. I also thought I think everyone could very much enjoy some translations of small updates I will made etc.. I actually recommended some of my friends to read this threat to catch up with latest developments etc. The resulting discussion was however I guess a little bit off putting in length and tone (including my contributions of course)

Anyway, from now on I will try to be really brief and focus more on positive side as it is much more beneficial. I wish everyone well discussions.

mikail firtinaci

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 11, 2014

kurremkarmerruk;

thanks for continuously judging and labeling my views without even asking what are they. You just confirmed my previous experience about the nationalist left. There is a trend in Turkish/Kurdish left today: they boast themselves for being "open minded," and borrow at will fancy words taken from the latest post-modernist literature trends in order to denounce "worn out" theories of class and communism. However, when it comes to "the burning reality" they turn out to be the most stalinist "realist and practical men" using a third class mockery of the socialist realist jargon. The PKK with its bookchinist stalinism is the clearest example here.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

Mikail do you just not like kurremkarmerruk?

Again, we keep asking you to engage what is being discussed rather than throwing around accusations, of Stalinist this and Stalinist that. Please, what about our response to your 4 or 5 points raised? Anything else or are we going to just repeat ourselves over and over? I would love to read a counter to our points raised about your pointed concerns.

mikail firtinaci

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 11, 2014

Marx-Trek;

I don't kurremkarmerruk. I am sure she is a nice person but what is the point here?

I am sorry, but I don't understand what "your points 4 or 5". As far as I understood you suggest that private property and "personal property" are not the same thing. Is this your point? However, beyond an obscure condemnation of "monopolies" (which was probably already not in existence in Rojeva) I don't see any "progressive" element that benefits workers and peasants in Rojeva in this constitution. I don't see how protection of private property by law is progressive?

I cited numerous sources showing that the oil income is used to support the state and army that PKK and its feudal and reactionary allies are establishing in the region. This is already what ISIS and Essad regimes were/are doing.

Baatist Essad regime was already a semi-state-socalism before it collapsed. And as I tried to point out earlier, in 60s Turkish leftist defended it "against imperialism" just because of that. PKK also worked with that regime for a long time. The only difference today is, if Essad regime was a nationalist and state capitalist regime in one tiny country, PKK wants to establish a smaller version of it in a bunch of villages and towns: a national municipal-socialism in one tiny small region.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

I meant with your constant nay-saying to anything uttered by kurremkarmerruk.

Yes, precisely, from what I got from reading the Rojava Constitution the two Articles, as above, concerning "private property" seem to be in reference to what I consider "personal property", thus not expressing support for the means of production. Now, as I am sure you are aware, and I would support such a criticism, if this begins to resemble social democracy and not something more as suggested by Dirik, then yes of course this would not be all that new.

However, if that would become the case, fine, so a social democratic state is established in the region. Now would that somehow lessen the struggle going on, no. But yes, your point that this is not some anarchist communist utopia was ever present, of course, but this is so far from the point. This again continues down the same logical conclusion that anything less than anarchist or communist is not worth support or solidarity.

Your right, the Constitution does not contain the words "workers" and "peasants" throughout the whole document and yes the establishment of such a Constitution itself is not anything new, considering that constitutions have been written since the French revolution up to the Soviet Constitution. But the Rojava, in its own words, goes further than any Constitution written so far. So yes, Mikail your concerns of future developments is understood. But who does not have concerns for any future development?

Oil production. Are you talking about Syrian Kurdish regions or Rojava Kurdish region or Iraqi oil production? PKK or the Kurdish Regional Government? All I can find about Oil ad PKK are alleged sabotages. The prospects of oil production an article: http://www.jpost.com/Features/Front-Lines/Behind-The-Lines-Defending-Rojava-330940

Could you repost those oil production/export articles? That could be an interesting discussion. however, the Rojava Constitution, as stated above, considers the resources under the ground as part of the common welfare...so yes perhaps will become a state monopoly to fund projects and things for people in the social democratic sense or something as suggested by Dirik. So far, I am still more inclined to listen to Dirik on the topic rather than your posts suggesting something incoherently different.

Why is using oil to generate funding inherently bad, so what if ISIS and Essad (Assad), are we supposed to damn the autonomous people of Chiapas/EZLN for selling coffee or damn the IWW groups for funding itself through worker owned companies because this is not automatic communism or anarchism? Again, I will refer to Dirik's take and the book and articles have been read and will be read than your posts that dont really make strong conclusions, other than just this is bad because it isnt good enough.

There are differences between the PKK and Rojava Cantons despite their close ties and working within the region correct? Perhaps someone could clarify?

Again, a simple understanding in economics and and governance will allow you to conclude that dependent on what makes Essad's Syria and the Rojava Cantons different will determine what happens with any revenue. I do not agree with your point that because oil may be used to acquire funding for whatever is somehow bad. However, how those funds are produced does matter.

This is kind the point and what appears to be changing in the area. If you have work hour reports and other evidence other than your own statements, that would be valuable for the discussions but so far it seems to just be mere statements.

But yes, these things can be further discussed and need to be discussed to see what is happening in the Rojava Cantons. Would love to read more, but I think your comments do not offer enough insight to make any kind of informed opinion on the matter.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 11, 2014

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/10/kobani-is-falling-to-isis-in-syria-kurd-protests-explode-in-turkey.html

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 12, 2014

Teh:

That is actually pretty interesting comment teh:

1) Yeah that is truly a legitimate concern. however to my mind I see no better way to ensure the development of the role of women in an actually pretty conservative society ( I mean doing something like this: 1) some sort of positive discrimination, 2) equality on all jobs and 3) a separate organization of women) Moreover I think it is not true that we can mention a managerial class in Kurdish movement (and especially in Rojova I guess) because - you know- they are not a society, they are a political organisation and women take part not just as managerials but also militants and decision makers. But of course it is a valid issue if all these policies will mean a betterment for Kurdish women in the long run. Will they fight against any attempt to shut them down from internal as well as external threats is an imortant question.

2) I did not know about the Kurds fighting in IS. Can you provide links. As far as I know under the heavy influence of Islam IS for example does not allow any sign of Kurdish ethnicity (language, paganist celebrations like Newroz etc.) So this massacre issue come to this: If Kurdish people would give up their principles and ethnicity to one side yeah maybe they could be with IS. (I also suspect the religious sect of Is and Kurds does not correspond really actaully but I have not enough knowledge on that) But that step is long being taken and after this minute IS will not hesitate to kill everyone.

3)

The secular army that has been fighting IS for three years now and has allowed Konabe to stay in YPGs hands for this long is the SAA

I think the reply to this is obvious: Assad regime is a dictatorship, It is racist, it is guilty of huge violations of Human rights to keep its pospulation in line. And maybe most importantly he does not propose any programme to develop egalitarian, libertarian tendencies in the region, in fact he was the most prominent opponent of these before IS. Assad of course ave much more firepower than Kurds and he can be credited for fighting IS.

The point is Kurdish Autonomy project proposes a programme that goes well beyond anything seen in the region. Its confederalism for example hated by all others. Its direct democracy principles are incomparably better than any other possiblity proposed by its opponents.so basically the significance of Kurds for leftist (to me) not just comes from they are secular in orientation to political structure, or just it has women fighting in ints side. But is somehow managed to formulate a very progressive programme and at the same time connected this programme a huge number of people that is willig to die for, for the realization of this confederalist, direct deocratic, gender equal, communalistic programme. I repeat this has otential to be a huge achievement. And it can not be ust reduced to on aspect of that programme. I think such analysis will miss the importance of whole experiment from the first move.

I think if somehow Autonomy movement will be able to survive. It will change the discussions of it in the future especially around the sentence I wrote in bold in the above.

3b)

There were a bunch of Islamist groups in Kurdistan attacked by the PKK

You mean the kurds that align themselves with Iraq Kurdish region? Yeah they are repressed I guess. and you are right of course Kurds can not be equated with PKK. But I do not get the point here. If it is about comparing YDG with ots opponents I think the difference comes from the programme, the political ideology.

4) You are definitely right about imperialist powers and their role in emergence of IS. however nobody just supports Kurds, (at least) I support the programe of Kurds that has potential to show the world a united people can establish a much more egalitarian and libertarian society that is beyond ideals of Islamism, nationalism modernization by western powers etc.. ( I also particularly like the idea this is happening in the one of the places that is considered not fit for such inspirations to take root).

5) I did not know about this fact. My belief in the gender equality position of Kurdish movement (not the whole Kurdish society of course, if we can speak of one) come form my experiences with women in Kurdish movement in Turkey and the policies they implement. I might be wrong but IS lacks such programme. All I know about their policies about women is really fundamentally Islamist. women could go there and fight but I do not think they will aid the women as a whole in any way. I am open to learn more about IS and women

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 12, 2014

Houzan Mahmound, Kurdish Feminist living in England on a Huffington Post Blog about Kobane resistance to ISIS:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/houzan-mahmoud/kobane-isis_b_5958150.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

The article appears to express and address some of the concerns of the Kurdish autonomy nay-sayers.

(1) The pro-Kurdish resistance view on US intervention does not appear to be simple cheerleading for Imperialist interests:

First of all, I would personally never want to see US or Western intervention in any part of the Middle East. Every time they intervene, they leave the population in a long and never ending conflict, letting alone the bloodshed and political turmoil. The governments they install only bring more suppression and division to an already ravaged society. In the first place it was the Western government who carelessly drew these borders and divided Kurdistan into four parts, and ever since generation after generation experienced war, ongoing political violence, state terror, imprisonment, deprivation, executions and genocide.

This is exactly in opposition to the aim and ideals of western powers who have always wanted the Middle East to be in conflict and 'governed' on the bases of ethnic, religious and tribal differences.

They [the West] refuse support because it's not the kind of political model or society that the West aspires to see. The only form of society that is advocated is a neoliberal one based on individualism, the 'free market' and class division. This kind of society is not concerned with collectivism, politics or revolutionary ideals but is instead obsessed with careerism and consumerism.

Therefore the example of Kobanê does not match the US and Western neoliberal model of ethno sectarian regimes like those installed in Afghanistan and Iraq after their occupation. Kobanê is different: it's a common based and inclusive politics; it has gender equality at heart. Free market and selfish individualism is not advocated by these fighters. What is happening in Kobanê is a new revolution at all levels. Facing ISIS and keeping hold of an experience of running society on the basis of collective action, gender equality and cultural progress is an extraordinary example.

(2) A new form of collectivism has been brought about, suggesting a new emergence and new development within the political forces of Rojava.

Throughout this time, a new model of politics built upon and defending the experience of collective self-rule has emerged.

Under this self-rule half of all official posts are held by women, people run collective grass-roots activity regardless of their "ethnic" and "religious" origins. This self-rule is commune-centred with a constitution explicitly rejecting the form of nation-state and advocates the protection of the environment and ecology.

(3) On Gender & Children.

In addition gender equality and children's rights are at the heart of the social programme of Kobane's revolutionary people.

Questions or Concerns:

I wonder what the differences are and the relationships between the various Kurdish organizations, political parties, and regional organizations. There seems to be a wide rage of leftist ideologies within the larger Kurdish political projects. As with this quote,

We have seen very little support given to the struggle of the brave freedom fighters/Peshmarga from Western governments and it is obvious why they do not want to support Kobanê.

I know that the Peshmarga is the fighting force of the Iraqi Kurdish region and I believe they are connected to the Kurdistan Regional Government (general news knowledge and wiki reading). This faction or section of the Kurdish political movement (Iraqi) appears to operate more like a state and perhaps modeled on a more western styled social democracy or even liberal center. Any thoughts, insight, or concerns with my assertion?

Also, it does not appear that the political groups and political ideologies of the organizations we have been discussing (PKK, YPG, Rojava Canton, DAF, etc...) are included in the Iraqi Kuridish political system. Are the semi-autonomous regional differences (Turkey, Syria, Iraq, & Iran) important factors within the wider Kurdish political landscape? It does not appear that the entire Kurdish political landscape unite under one economic/political banner of Kurdistan and fight as a single unit. There only seems to be an agreement to fight along side for defensive reasons. And the only agreement I can find seems to suggest that such an agreement was expressly within Syrian Kurdistan. Right?

Also, I imagine that regional differences are important in further understanding the larger Kurdish political and social landscape in relation to Rojava Canton and the more autonomous areas within the Syrian Kurdish area.

Further, I would be interested in finding more economic pieces writtten about the Rojava Canton and the greater regional economics of semi-autonomoous Kurdistan, anyone have any links or suggestions.

Wiki Knowledge and differences and many Kurdistans:

1. Iraqi Kurdistan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Iraqi_Kurdistan

2. Syrian Kurdistan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Kurdistan#Cantons
*Note - the Cantons (the point of interests here) are seemingly even more autonomous from the larger Syrian region and the general larger Kurdistan.

3. Turkish Kurdistan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Kurdistan
* Turkey still controls and claims the area and the PKK has mounted a guerilla war against Turkish domination. An interesting point/counter-point, in 2002 the EU found no other reason, other than political reasons, for having the PKK remain on an international terrorist list.

4. Iranian Kurdistan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Kurdistan

ISIS Video discussion:

Interesting ISIS video addressing Western geopolitical interests and criticism of such interventionists strategies: Huffington Post video interview on Geopolitics, US interests, and ISIS: http://video.huffingtonpost.co.uk/video/the-powers-behind-the-islamic-state-518385442?icid=taboola-hp-news

Spikymike

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on October 12, 2014

I can see why many here including some anarchists found the speech by Dilar Dirik inspiring as she argued strongly, and apparently on behalf of many organised Kurdish women, against the idea of 'the state' as a means of securing womens liberation or any kind of human freedom and for independent self-organisation of people. She also made some interesting contrasts between the underlying ideological approach of the 'democratic confederalism' as practiced in Syrian Kurdistan with the politics of Iraqi Kurdistan, though in the current situation her claims of superiority for the former as a means of defense against ISIS and other opponents without recourse to reliance on other world and regional statist players seems pretty threadbare. Whatever the claimed benefits of democratic confederalism currently to people in Syrian Kurdistan as contrasted with the dire example of ISIS control elsewhere there seems little to back up the idea that such as system of democratic communalism (rather than communism) has any better chance in the longer term of securing a genuine Kurdish autonomy or other form of independence without the compliance of some, or a number of other world and regional powers. Ignoring existing states rather than attacking them does not seem to offer anyway forward. She also, at least in the time she had, placed most emphasis on the forms of democracy in representing both genders and ethnic and religious 'communities' and a generalised 'people' with no clear approach to economic systems or class divisions so we are left at this stage unable to understand what her passing critical reference to capitalism means in practice. At this point I don't see a need to revise what I said previously on the 'democratic confederalist' strategy.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 12, 2014

So I guess after all this discussion we all still have the same conclusion. I support anarchist solidarity actions, support, and networking with the Rojava Cantons against ISIS and look with interest and enthusiasm at the social, political, and economic developments coming along. At this moment I see what is being done as something positive and hope it will continue to develop along autonomous communal lines. Time will tell, but with such a positive view on autonomy and autonomous activity it looks favorable unless outside forces overrun the region - hence our concerns with ISIS.

Hey, kurremkarmerruk, I was wondering, are you going to get that new book Democratic Autonomy in North Kurdistan. Perhaps we could start a new discussion threat on the book and looking deeper into the Cantons?

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 12, 2014

Spikymike, indeed that is a very relevant and interesting point being raised. I think you were able to articulate , unlike most posts on this thread, a concern that most of us on this thread share (though seemingly a unknowingly shared concerned by some). Finally, someone with a political-economy concern rather than just pure ideological concerns.

It could be that the economic question has yet to have been raised by the Cantons themselves in any expansive manner since they seem to have emerged ,more or less ,under the siege of war.

But yeah anything that can be found on the economics within the Cantons would be a very exciting read indeed!

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 12, 2014

A report back from the Cantons , an economic discussion is included, from Anarkismo,net: http://www.anarkismo.net/article/27301

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 13, 2014

Hello all:

https://www.facebook.com/siyasihaberorg/photos/a.630258333703222.1073741825.471366849592372/806624656066588/?type=1

I do not know if I could posting links to photos will work but here it is.

This is:

Nejat Ağırnaslı (Paramaz Kızılbaş)

He was a dedicated communist who give up his master's degree education in Bogazici and went to Kobane to fight. He was a friend of many leftists and anarchists in Turkey. He was well known for his militancy in practice and competency in theory. He was the turkish translator of "The revolutionary theories of Luois Auguste Blanqui" (by Alan B. Spitzer). He was killed in fight as a member of MLKP guerillas (Marxist-Leninist communist party) while fighting IS with YPG forces in Kobane.

Here is a bit younger photo of him:

https://www.facebook.com/anarsihaber/photos/a.294699383952220.71947.253208984767927/735936519828502/?type=1
(He is the one on the right in this pic, this is apparently taken while he was protesting in the street for abolishing the Terror Act: That criminalizes a lot of revolutionary groups and a constant threat to many protesters. His sign read HDK (The congress related to Kurdish movement in Turkey. This congress unites a lot of parties, civil societies etc...)

I wished this to report here: I will also make some more updates today I guess...

-----------------

NOTE 1:
Also I just found this interview made with him after he was arrested as a member of KCK (the self-organized people's community, it is like a counter power organization) with so little evidence like he was communist etc...

http://istiraki.blogspot.com.tr/2014/10/nejat-agrnasl-soylesisi.html

It can be read by using google translate, I add the part he mentions why he sees Kurdish movement important as a communist (in a slightly altered machine translation):

At this point, the Kurdish movement makes a difference, other than designing a project; they implement it. Kurds create their own agenda, discussions and actualize it. this renders state impotent. Turkish Republic (TR) can not offer an alternative project for the region. So it repeats its tradition. when it does not murders, it makes arrests. When it does not destroy, it denies. In addition, the TR also does not have a project for the West. Rulers does not know how they can rule, the ruled can govern themselves and the Kurds are making leadership to it.

NOTE 2:
http://www.bianet.org/biamag/emek/136458-freelance-calisan-orgutlenebilir-mi

And here is another text by him, written on how the freelance workers can be united. You can try to make a sense of it by using Google translate. (By the way I think the main theme of the text is this: the encouragement of syndicalism (and a call to it) especially its anarchistic variant as opposed to contemporary reflexive work regime and its forms of labor) I wish to translate one passage that illustrates his approach:

In short, the dream is this: A step that situates itself as an anti-capitalist political position by its practical existence and its political engagement. And also a one that actually fights a political struggle, transforms the work into an art by its internal education and politicizing the lives of its members by changing them. A step in the first phase that wishes not to make its language but its attitude a communist one. A step that emphasizes the world is larger than itself [the dreamed organization] and moreover it organizes this emphasis. A step that is not just an humble one...

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 13, 2014

By the way a disturbing news from the Border gate Mursitpinar:

http://www.sendika.org/2014/10/isid-ele-geciremedi-tsk-el-atiyor-askerler-ypglileri-tehdit-ediyor/

According to this military authorities at the border (which is according to certain news and contrary to what Turkish government says, closed to at least 5 day for now) also started to warn the YPG guerrillas they should go out of the area surrounding the Turkish border and threat them with attacking.

If Turkish army takes such an action this will result in the losing of the only side of Kobane (the northern side, the Turkish border) and it will be taken by IS, as they are already fighting to conquer that area. Thus rendering the city totally surrounded.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 13, 2014

I also would like to make a comment about some stuff that has been discussed (or addressed to me) to further the discussion:

1)

Anyone got any thing to say about this group or action. I know its from August of this year but still interesting.
http://www.anarsihaber.org/izmirde-rojava-katliamina-karsi-eylem

They are a very loosely organized group in Izmir that can only be described as a pananarchist.I guess. anarsihaber itself is also a pananarchist website. However I was in İzmir last weekend (and I plan to be there regularly) and I think I met with some of the people who organized this. (did not discussed this particular demo: It was solidarity vegetarian breakfast with Kobane to discuss and come together) They organize solidarity stuff with refugees and have good plans to make reporting of the situation from internet (let's leave details of it here, if it works I will say it. I hope to have results at least within this week)

2)

antifa support for Kurdish resistance: http://www.antifa.de/cms/

Yeah The German anarchist seem to have really good relations with the Kurdish movement. I also would like to point out that Kurdish movement organizes events called "Mesopotamia social forum" There was a lot of European participants, it was the first time I guessed I realized the inspiration of the Kurdish struggle give to more general global leftist movements and individuals etc. Anyway I do not know when the next one will be but you should have an ear on it (is this an appropriate phrase) http://www.msf.web.tr/msf/ ( I guess there are some English texts)

3) About the constitution I would like to make another post, as I find it very important (maybe in an another threat you posed??)

4)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/10/kobani-is-falling-to-isis-in-syria-kurd-protests-explode-in-turkey.html

Yeah as the support for Kobane was brutally repressed by the state forces. Most of the solidarity actions take the form of violent crashes. Plus there is The local Hezbollah here which is an ethnically Kurdish Islamic organization that was in cooperation with the state and used as an paramilitary arm of the state against the socialistic, secular Kurdish movement (in Turkish Kurdistan of course not in west). They also moved to street (might with or without provocation of the PKK). This resulted in armed fights between them. And in the western and central Anatolia there were nationalists who "keep" the peace and beat the shit out of people in cooperation with the cops. They are mostly Grey wolves you mention and you are right about your every comment about them. Their party is MHP (national action party) it is racist totally hierarchical in organization. They even announced officially that: “The Kurds will miss the IS if MHP comes to power.” Also the widespread nationalism (established by education and other forms of state nationalist cultural propagandation practice etc) in Turkish population currently helps them to gather masses in many cities where Kurdish are minority. However that toll now exceeds 40 in Turkey now. They are relatively calmed down for now.

Also a more individual note: Even this weekend when we were in a protest to support Kobane in İzmir they gathered a few streets away. Luckly as we did not moved but just made a public announcement and shouted slogans nothing happened

Also a side note: Unfortunately these clashes do not occur in politically correct ways of course. The hatred of cops and against Kurds, The political rivalry between Hezbollah and PKK and Kurdish people's general hatred towards anything related to Turkish state results in pretty bad clashes and deaths and destruction of public and private property. This in turn gives enough images for media to make one-sided news and give cards to state to play as only peacekeeper" and further agitate the population about the evilness of PKK at the same time using a rhetoric of brotherhood with "good" kurds and emphasizing an Islamic unity (or blaming the secularity of PKK etc...) This combined with also possible political conflicts internal to state (like this AKP - Gulen Society problems) creates a huge area to be manipulation of the masses and further nationalize them and make them racist or at least anti-Kurdish.

5)

This faction or section of the Kurdish political movement (Iraqi) appears to operate more like a state and perhaps modeled on a more western styled social democracy or even liberal center. Any thoughts, insight, or concerns with my assertion?

It does not appear that the entire Kurdish political landscape unite under one economic/political banner of Kurdistan and fight as a single unit. There only seems to be an agreement to fight along side for defensive reasons. And the only agreement I can find seems to suggest that such an agreement was expressly within Syrian Kurdistan. Right?

Yeah I think you are right. There are a lot of accusations made by PKK or PYD members against Iraqi Kurdish region. That they do not support the Rojova as much as they could one of the reasons for it is that they left Shengal to IS and refused to accept refugees. Moreover they do not condemn the actions of Turkey. Even in their latest speech for example an official connected to them is very supportive and says he does not want to comment much on Turkey and IS relation: http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/mesut_barzani_turkiye_silah_verdi_ama_aciklamamizi_istemedi-1218484
All this does not make happy Kurdish movement and interpreted as he only things for his own region like a state etc.

7)

Hey, kurremkarmerruk, I was wondering, are you going to get that new book Democratic Autonomy in North Kurdistan. Perhaps we could start a new discussion threat on the book and looking deeper into the Cantons?

I was not thinking to buy it outright now (financial reasons) however I can read other stuff written that I know interesting related but however did not read the still. I would like to have another discussion (more theoratical, ideologcial significance and influence of the Rojova) and also maybe another discussion for providing info news etc ???

I will keep posting (try to be much shorter :D )

Mark.

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on October 13, 2014

FSA involvement in Kobane:

https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/reportsfeatures/564212-fsa-fighting-alongside-kobane-kurds

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 13, 2014

http://www.aljazeera.com.tr/haber/pydden-zorunlu-askerlik

http://www.wri-irg.org/node/23519

Apparently YPG started to draft people to its army (well to itself) by the way. They passed the law sometime ago and now they started to implement it i guess.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 13, 2014

This site has a lot of translated reports and interviews by the way and it is updated regularly:

http://rojavareport.wordpress.com/

kuti

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kuti on October 14, 2014

The YPG has announced the death of Suphi Nejat Ağırnaslı, a member of the Marxist-Leninist Communist Party of Turkey (MLKP) who was martyred in clashes with ISIS in Kobanê.

http://rojavareport.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/ypg-commemorates-turkish-mlkp-fighter-martyred-in-kobane/

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 14, 2014

kurremkarmerruk, thanks for the update and further explanations.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 14, 2014

:D you are welcome

By the way this is also possibly interesting:

http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/turk_savas_ucaklarindan_pkk_mevzilerine_hava_bombardimani-1218611

Accrodig to news Turkish fighter jets bombarded camps of PKK in Daglica. as the so called "peace process" has started there was a (de facto) ceasefire. However if this is true Turkey (as it never declared cease fire) will attack to PKK thus ending the "peace" negotiations.

also:

http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/pkknin_iki_ust_duzey_ismi_yuz_tanimaya__mi_takildi-1218623

Two PKK militant who were wounded in the Kobane were caught while trying to come to Turkey at the border by face recognition systems.

These two news at least imply that Turkish state might not just wish to end the existence of Autonomous project, it might be aiming to end whole of Kurdish resistance together.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 14, 2014

http://pflp.ps/english/2014/10/13/pflp-calls-for-unified-revolutionary-front-of-solidarity-with-the-struggle-of-the-people-of-kobane-against-isis/

Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine calls for unified revolutionary front of solidarity with the struggle of people of Kobane against ISIS

Burgers

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Burgers on October 14, 2014

It's as though Spain never happened!

Mark.

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on October 14, 2014

IFA statement in Spanish:

http://www.alasbarricadas.org/noticias/node/32603

Is there an English translation of this?

Edit: translation here (scroll down page):

http://www.i-f-a.org/index.php/statements/556-against-the-terror-of-the-state-and-religion-freedom-for-the-people

Soapy

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Soapy on October 14, 2014

bin please

tw_

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by tw_ on October 15, 2014

Nice to find that discussion topic, since i was not checking libcom for long time. Here the things i want to add to the discussion: But if the PYD's mandatory military service thing is real. The so called revolution and and support perspective which is written on my comment is totaly needs to be forgotten... If this is true, it's a practically a state which doesn't call itself a state; with its military forces, police, prisons etc... Hope that news is not real at least...
http://www.aljazeera.com.tr/haber/pydden-zorunlu-askerlik

"
Wahab and Serhat, two young activists with the Revolutionary Anarchist Action (DAF) in Turkey, who have been at the border for over two weeks to show their solidarity with the Kurds from Kobanê, help refugees on both sides of the frontier and are keeping guard in one of the villages to prevent aspiring jihadists from crossing into Syria to join ISIS. They share Abdurrahman’s opinion: “The revolution in Rojava is against state formation and terrorist gangs, it is based on emancipation and direct democracy; it is about autonomy and self-administration and rejects any form of hierarchy and authority.”
"

http://roarmag.org/2014/10/kurdistan-kobane-turkey-isis/

----------------------------------------------------------------------

It's far more complex than that, supporting a kind of autonomy can not be justified by putting our ideologic perspectives on the reality; realities of the invidividuals and groups; what really is going on. But those individuals from DAF, missing important points and i think this their ideological choice. (NOT JUST DAF, GENERALLY EVERYONE, ESPECIALLY ANARCHIST WHO HAS NO CRITICS TO THE "GOOD" SIDES)

First of all there's no direct demoracy in Rojava, there's a kind of representative democracy which named as: Democratic Confederalism. As it's noted in the Rojava Constitution by the creators of it not by some outsiders or any writer which is important because they, themselves, don't call that practices as a direct democracy example:

"Article 8

All Cantons in the Autonomous Regions are founded upon the principle of local self-government. Cantons may freely elect their representatives and representative bodies, and may pursue their rights insofar as it does not contravene the articles of the Charter."

http://civiroglu.net/the-constitution-of-the-rojava-cantons/

It's very long topic to discuss but that doesn't mean that we need to stop discussing it as the importance of that experience will not be insignificant because it's not anarchic way. David Graeber was right even though he was missing some important point in terms of pointing important differences between anarchist (not just anarchists of course) uprising in Spain in 1936 and Rojava since 2 years. As in my knowledge the anarchists were rejecting all kind of authorities mostly in Spain, there're very hard critics even those times to the anarchists union when they called for vote for the election by saying:

" “The entry of the C.N.T. into the government of Madrid is one of the most important facts of the political history of our country. The C.N.T. has always on principal and by conviction been anti-State and the enemy of every form of government. But circumstances, nearly always superior to the human will although determined by it, have transformed the nature of government and the Spanish State. At the present time the government as a regular instrument of the State is no longer an oppressive force against the working class.” "
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/alfredo-m-bonanno-a-critique-of-syndicalist-methods

In that dimension and that comparison with Rojava, there're still not that much "historical ideologic manipluations" in Rojava, that's mostly positive for Rojava since they're not a part of the Syria in practice but in theory within their discourses, they're advising their model for all syria, so in a way or so which is openly means there'll be hierarchy as it exists now.

But the "DAF anarchists" -with the spirit of the hard conditions and propably for their own motivations- doesn't see those important differences, at least that's my experience with them.

Rather than putting their ideology, there're also some anarchist individuals who support Rojava without any critic but openly saying that; in that context and circumstances, we are supporting Rojava Revolution even though they're a hierarchical organisation in general, there's an represantative democracy, industrialization projects and so on, but especially when ISIS attacking we'll not be sticked to the anarchists perspectives... Which i found problematic...

There needs to be critical support in my opinion, critical because there're so much propaganda from all sides, including Rojava Revolutio support because some of the imperialist propagandas equalize the Rojava with classic national-states and destroys the differences. And some, like Turkish state even equalizing the ISIS and YPG.

A question for the ones who doesn't like the "Rojava Revolution" to be criticised. Look at the history it'll tell what may happen if there're no critics, but only if you can see... What the history says?

tw_

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by tw_ on October 15, 2014

It may be pretty much realised soon, even though if the al-jazeree was manipulating the news. Based on the law that passed in Rojava months ago, in July:

http://www.diclehaber.com/en/news/content/view/410688?from=1923065108

Another source, War Resisters' International:
http://www.wri-irg.org/node/23519

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 15, 2014

Again, there are obvious differences between what happened in Spain 1936-39 and what is happening in Rojava.

Here we go again. If you look deeper into Spain 1936-39, (CNT-FAI, POUM, etc...), the Spain that is being raised up on high here in an attempt to contrast anything that is less-anarchistic than the over-generalized current understanding of what happened in Spain 1936-39 then perhaps the constant critique that Rojava is not Spain would be less of perceived strong counter point to Rojava.

But yes, again, what is happening in Rojava and the other Cantons is not Spain 1936-39. And yes, a strong anarchist and syndicalist tendency, along with other libertarian-socialists unions and militias, did not establish the Canton as they did in Spain. With that being admitted and stated be plenty of people on this thread, what is the point? Is the point that anarchists were a very large part of what happened in Spain and anarchists (as category that can be counted by anarchists raising their hands) are not a very large part of what is happening in the Canton? Because, the critique that elections are happening and representation is happening in the Cantons and therefore it is not somehow "anarchistic" is way way to generalized and indicates a surface level understanding of Spain 1936-39. There are a lot of great articles and pdf books here on libcom.org that can be read and details a very deep understanding and study of Spain 1936-39.

Hate to break it to ya, voting happened in Spain, representation happened in Spain, Orders were given at the front, etc... Though, as an anarchist/autonomist-leftist I do not see all this as some indication of less this "anarchism" (whatever that means) that happened in Spain or what is emerging in the Cantons now. I do not think this makes what happened in Spain any less anarchistic or the recent developments in the Cantons any less interesting and hopeful.

I suggest reading:

Collectives in the Spanish Revolution by Gaston Leval
(found here on libcom at https://libcom.org/library/collectives-spanish-revolution-gaston-leval )

- With such shockingly named chapter titles such as: Materials for a Revolution; Collectivist Book-keeping; Libertarian Democracy; The Charters; Industrial Achievements; and Political Collaboration.

Collectives in the Spanish Revolution is an amazing book that goes into great detail.

Though ideology can go a long way, what is more important is the changing relationships between people and forcing anarchist/autonomist-leftist/anti-capitalist analysis of production and reproduction of society along non-capitalist lines. If you read the economic history and system of production and consumption in Spain, the Rojava Constitution and what is emerging in within the Cantons would not seem so far apart as assumed.

Ideology is important but ideology is not the end of the line.

I admit that the Cantons are not Spain. But neither is Chiapas. Etc... As some of the articles already linked here show that the Cantons are beginning to make drastic changes within the economic realm. As has been expressed, multiple times again, looking at the developments in the Cantons and compare that to Spain, Chiapas, etc... is relevant and would be a very interesting conversation.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 15, 2014

WOW! the PFLP have joined the fight?! I was just wondering when the Palestine and Kurdish connection would be physically made...

As if Spain never happened?

I think, for one, the historical context of Spain and the existence of the Soviet Union (Stalin) and that Soviet Union not existing today makes for a need of having a little bit of a different analysis. But of course, obviously, as anarchists/libertarians/left-wing communists/etc... are concerned, the ideological differences are relevant. Its not that ideology is unimportant but let ourselves ask why and where in the discussion, organizing, and action ideology plays a role.

Marx-Trek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Marx-Trek on October 15, 2014

On another forum I just read that the YPG has retaken a strategically important hill 4km from Kobane. I am currently trying to find reports of this strategically positive development.

tw_

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by tw_ on October 15, 2014

What about mandatory military service law of Rojava which is declared on 15th of July, since i personally had important critics to the "Rojava Revolution" but that final news was something very important shock for me. I missed that news because of my mistake which is limited research and propaganda war... Want to hear the ideas from the libertarian communists...Too bad....

Al jazeree turk, said on 13th of october that'll start on november... No denial news from the Rojava since then.

------------------------------------

Rojava to defend itself with this law

KOBANÊ (DİHA) - The Democratic Autonomous Administrations Founder Assembly held a meeting in Rojava and legislated an important law regarding the service of defense.

According to ANHA, the Democratic Autonomous Administrations Defense Law, which will be applied in all three cantons of Rojava, has been published in the official gazette. Defense Law includes 9 articles. According to the law, civilians aged between 18 and 30 must enlist in the military for six months. The law also states that the soldier can choose to either serve the six months with no interruptions or in break the time up into different phases. The duties and responsibilties of those residing in Democratic Autonomous Administrations are as follows:

First Article: The participation of residents of Democratic Autonomous Administrations into YPG fronts is defined as "Defense Service".

Second Article: The duty of defense is a/an social and ethical duty. Each association and family must charge someone for defense service.

Third Article: According to the law, each citizen aged between 18 and 30 has to enlist in the defense service. The participation of young women is voluntary.

Fourth Article: The duration of defense service is 6 months. When the duty of defense ends, attendant can optional leave or can join in the units of defense. It's necessary to complete the duty of defense within one year. Students must finish their defense service over a period of two years.

Fifth Article: The situation of quitrent from defense service; Those, who are in the ranks of YPG/YPJ (People's Protection Units/Women's Protection Units), asayish (security) and Kurdistan Freedom Movement, are exempt from the defense service. Families' only members, youths with heavy illnesses and disableds are exempt from the defense service.

Sixth Article: Financial contribution is given to the families of those who put the bread on the table in the family along their defense service.

Seventh Article: Those, who refuse to give the defense service and to join in defense of country, will be face disciplinary measures. Those Savunma hizmeti sırasında kanun dışı davrananlar askeri kanuna göre yargılanır.

Eighth Article: Those, who want to give defense service, join in YPG units.

Ninth Article: This law is valid when it is published in the Offical Gazette.

(nt)

http://www.diclehaber.com/en/news/content/view/410688?from=1923065108

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 15, 2014

Kuti
Yeah I reported that above with some links and short translations of texts by Nejat Ağırnaslı

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 15, 2014

Burgers

It's as though Spain never happened!

It is as if anarchists/communists of my generation seem to wish that Spanish Revolution did not happen at all. I wonder how many of you would really discuss or even be inspired by a movement that did not fight to stop Fascism and utilized its principles under the heat of war prefiguratively. Would anyone even remember them as politically relevant now, if that was the case.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 15, 2014

tw_

But if the PYD's mandatory military service thing is real.

Am I being neglected? (Is it because being a dissent or is it because writing for so long) I reported this with the same links. ( I will divide my posts from now on as you can see in practice)
I think it is real no doubt

tw_

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by tw_ on October 15, 2014

sorry kurrem, i saw your post but i mixed it and i did not check that if it was on the same post...

I also ask some antimilitarist friends close to kurdish movement who has contacts to learn about practices of that "democractic confederal zones"...

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 15, 2014

Marx-Trek

Hate to break it to ya, voting happened in Spain, representation happened in Spain, Orders were given at the front, etc...

Yeah that is certainly true. Anarchists seem to forget the experiment in social anarchim was not pure at all. It utilized political assassination and for example censorship of the pres etc… which does not seem so nice looking from a chair in your room. However as always there was compensations needed to be made that required sometimes to give up political correctness to organize workers, to establish a revolutionary self-organization, there was need to counter the bourgeoisie propaganda…

However if I learn here something it is this: Most of the discussion we had here was not answered by the point above (I exclude for example tw_ and some others) as I said above people are disgusted by (or indifferent to) the fact that there are some people who actually fight against “fascistic” forces in hopes of establishing a better future. (The political importance of that future can be seen if it is compared to programmes or interests of its rivals and imperialist forces try to conquer them or try to make them give up their autonomy)

For example in another threat someone actually wrote this:

My position, generally along the lines of the communist left, is that the only thing more dangerous to the working class than fascism is anti-fascism.

You see the real “mentality” I have hard time to grasp is this non-political absolutistic communism. People seem to so obsessed with it they seem to believe Ocalan is a rapist, womanizer and PKK is definitely assimilationist excluding nationalistic (even genocidal as said by someone) organization etc.. WITHOUT really bothering to read or check the facts. Fort hem the theory seems to be so complete and life is such black and white, there becomes no need to have a grasp of the existence of PYD and its fight and its autonomy Project as a whole but having a quote from an obscure book that says Ocalan is rapist, or seeing a Turkish news claiming they rape women, or just opening constitution and saying “they support right to property” they decide it is totally anti-workerist , moreover totally against and in opposition to any communistic interest from the day one.

And this really disgust me back as it is what is claimed by Turkish media, state and (some parts of) society. Kurds are a backwards stupid ethnicity that needs us to find their way. Otherwise they follow their stupid leaders (who is much more knowledgeable in the current state of radical theory compared to any other mass organization and their discourse in Turkey). Or they only fight for ethnic causes as if they have no minds or thinking capacities themselves. as if the people dying in the fight are illiterate puppets that never read a book on communism. I am really repellent about the hidden racism behind this form of interpretation. I had enough of this and certainly Kurds had enough of this. No such discussion will not help to "redirect" (as if it is needed) any Kurd to support so called international communism (I mean it here in general, like I am also one I guess). If not outright alienate them to it. (and some of the people I discuss here are Turkish, so they must know the hidden racist nature of portrayal of Kurds, I really can not believe they somehow agree with it and continue to discuss them as victims in the name of international communism)

So basically I am being lost on the issue that what to reply back to exactly. Should I try to defend people’s right to fight against fascism and how this fight can lead to a progressive social and political consciousness in masses (not always of course, and not automatically, but as a possibility) or should I try to emphasize the progressiveness of Autonomy experiment in the context of war and its reactionary political rivals as if most of the people feel sympathetic about it. By trying to show the advances and developments they made in social issues, gender equality, democratic stuff etc... (as you can see I do not wish to to include replying back to outright state propaganda or racial/orientalist prejudices reproduced here as another option. As I already done it in this thread and it is pretty stupid discussion to make it now)

(As a side note I really liked your point that these “practical” revisions that needed to implement in Spanish Revolution does not make anyone to claim it was not less anarchistic. I actually think the anarchism itself must be rethought (or actually to remember) as to include them without excuses or buts as long as these changes are practical necessary arrangements)

On another forum I just read that the YPG has retaken a strategically important hill 4km from Kobane. I am currently trying to find reports of this strategically positive development.

Yeah that is true they lost it like 2 weeks ago or something and there were ISIS flag on the hill, now it is controlled by YPG. Also the ISIS’s advance in the city stopped for 5 days now at about they took %30 percent of the city. However this is not bad I guess as long as Kurds can stop their advance. As Kurds have no heavy weapons I think they are in advantageous position in the city.

- Edit: I post it with wrong order of pastes, I corrected it now, so read again please if it made no sense (except those with international communist sensibilities of course :D I guess it still makes no sense to them)

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 15, 2014

Yeah the draft is a huge issue and I think that kind of restricts my defence for Rojova revolution. We should find sources to discuss it from the region.

That said: I hope it is a temporary arrangement to ensure the existence of cantons and not as a long term policy. Ad the only real thing (I can think of) we can due to ensure it is not long term is to actually keep the issue alive and in the long run to abolish it as the compulsory army is against their own principles of democracy.

however again, similar problems arisen in the Spanish Revolution as well: http://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/14losx/true_anarchists_are_against_false_liberty_invoked/
I also remember myself in Durruti: the people armed examples of such frustrations, how Duruiti fired and take away guns of some militants who are taking a nap on duty etc...

I also remember in the Bookchin's book "Social Anarchism or Lifestyle Anarchism: An Unbridgeable Chasm" how he analyses the difference between what the anti-militarism meant and what it means now. Now it is mostly associated with non-violence and not going to army etc... However Bookchin says back then (for CNT militants at least) it meant abolishing the national army by taking the arms yourself. Being militia, arming the people was considered as the anti militarism as only this can democratize (thus abolish) the power of central national army.

In my opinion these are real issues that needs to be solved by live arragements that needed to be made in the heat of the battle, lets hope it does not harm the ultimate aims that are actually people are fighting for

tw_

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by tw_ on October 15, 2014

Durruti was not perfect and even was worst on his last time, so sad but that's happened. I'm not trying to create or look for an idol which is perfect. Even it may not be possible to avoid the mistakes even though openly critising it but there's a chance if it's getting criticised.

I'm ok when i heard that one women whose affinity was killed by an ISIS soldier, killed one ISIS member when he was going to be taken to the prison, that was nice story for me, fuck that fascist "who cares." The real problem there is prisons and existence of that system. And with the mandatory military service, that is already very strong signs of the authoritarian culture that's in progress...

Bookchinian who is a modernist can play that dualistic game, i can say that, it depends and you can not put me in your ideologic game of Social or Lifestyle anarchism.

tw_

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by tw_ on October 15, 2014

I would say that to the Bookchin if he was alive...

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 15, 2014

By the way related to an earlier comment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Union_Party_(Syria)

This article in Wiki explains really good the tensions between PYD, Turkey FSA (here it is called Syrian National Coalition) and KNC (Kurdish national coalition, sponsored by Barzani, The leader of the Iraqian Kurdistan) and how these last three tried to stop PYD from establishing their political programme in the region.

Spikymike

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on October 15, 2014

If there is any useful comparison at all between Spain circa 1936 and Syrian Kurdistan today it is surely only in the degeneration of the anarchist influenced 'Spanish revolution' into a capitalist civil war against the background of far more powerful imperialist powers. Anarchist enthusiasm for the 'Rojova experiment' places too much faith in the progressive potential of this version of social democracy and underestimates the overiding power and influence of the combined forces of local nationalist and wider imperialist forces in the region.

Mark.

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on October 15, 2014

mainstream media report from Kobani:

http://www.warscapes.com/reportage/extremists-and-moderates-kobani

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 15, 2014

Spikymike:

I agree with you. I mean if all this boils down to being an optimistic ("having faith in" it) or not. If we will agree on one point, and it will not be (and should not be) meaningless discussions of unconformable past events or unintelligible total skepticism of PKK (being a totally Stalinist organization but acting to look like Bookchinian,) And if the Spain and Rojova analogy is so similar that we can also predict how it will end (it is you, not me though) Yeah I guess I am OK with being considered an optimist. At this stage I pretty much hope that they will survive in the region against all odds. And in the future I again pretty much wish that they will stick to a path that will at least relatively result in realization of their premises again against a lot of external factors. However I see no other possible way for realization of any revolutionary project in the region. Moreover I see no other way than to support the Kurdish people (i mean their movement) in their fight that might be beneficial to establishment of a better world. I think that would be the proper anarchist position back then in Spanish Revolution and it is the best position still now.

Cleishbotham

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Cleishbotham on October 15, 2014

There is no "revolutionary project in the region" and it is a fantasy to say there is. There is only bourgeois agendas and imperialist manipulations. Libertarians talking like Trotskyists who are ever seeking a progressive bourgeois faction to support is shocking. I don't usually post links but here we go:
http://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2014-10-15/iraq-the-new-caliphate-is-and-the-wider-imperialist-manoeuvres

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 15, 2014

By the way, all of the news I get now related to Kobane are good for these two days. I guess in general the advancement of ISIS completely stopped in the city and it is retreated in many places in the city. As this is very general I will not post links for now.

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 15, 2014

Cleishbotham:

I am no expert however I know a bit about Turkish politics and Kurdish issue. And unfortunately the article you shared seems to be flawed:

1)

The first is Erdogan’s demand that the Coalition does not support the Kurdish troops of Masoud Barzani, and does not support Syrian Kurdish nationalism to avoid any risk of awakening the PKK at home.

This is most certainly untrue. Turkey and Barzani relations are really good. They have economic relations and everything. and on the point see this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Union_Party_(Syria)

The PYD were apparently not invited to a meeting between the Turkish Foreign Minister, the Syrian National Council, and the Kurdish National Council to discuss the future of Syria. This has led some to suggest that the Turkish government is trying to encourage the marginalization of the PYD in the Kurdish opposition due to the group's links with the PKK.[8] Muslim also held talks with Turkish officials in July 2013 in regards to seeking autonomy within Syria. However, Turkey's demands included that the PYD not seek autonomy through violence, not harm Turkish border security and be firmly opposed to the Syrian government.[9]

Kurdish National Council is connected to Barzani and has bad relations (though in a some sort of partnership) with PYD. Turkey is against PYD at any costs (apparently) but not at all against Barzani's groups.

And also another proof:
http://www.zaman.com.tr/dunya_barzani-turkiyeden-silah-yardimi-aldik_2250450.html

Here, you can search this news yourself: Barzani himself says "they received military support (in form of guns) from turkey but they did not announced it as it was not the best time."

So this equalization of PKK and Barzani (and grouping of all two as basically nationalists) is just not right.

2)

At the same time, having to crush the anger of 15 million Turkish Kurds, thousands of whom have demonstrated in Istanbul and other major cities of Turkey, leaving behind thirty dead, Erdogan promised to consider the possibility of provisional release for the historic leader of the PKK, Ocalan.

This is just bullsh*t. There is not even a word Tayyip said anything about it. Under current situation it is just impossible, even he thinks (and HEAVILY STRONGLY MOST DEFINITELY doubt it) he would not say anything like this now. As there is no reference I just assume this is a misunderstanding at best.

3)

In Iraqi Kurdistan too Massoud Barzani is the product of American interests in the most important part of the Iraqi oil industry. To defend the "communism" of the PKK from the persecution of Ankara forgetting that Ocalan’s followers preach a national road to socialism, that they are an offspring of Stalinism and the counter-revolution in the USSR, is still another. Whether Ocalan has been converted, as informed observers of Kurdish affairs tell us, to a kind of democratic anarchism does not alter the issue much. It is an appeal to the Kurdish question on the usual bourgeois nationalist terrain, as always invoking the self-determination of people, even if democratic and progressive, perhaps with a socialist adjective thrown in, as in the case of the Kurdish enclave in Syrian Rojava. Giving up in advance any attempt to build a revolutionary perspective is genuine class suicide.

What class is living there that is acting in a way of suicide? Would that be class would be better of with IS (when they are killed) ? With whom or what anyone is planning to " build a revolutionary perspective" there? should people wait and die till someone finally does? Nope I will no longer discuss this (you can check earlier discussions)

Do need to say it? I did not like the content of article as much as I can fact check (the above points) and I am against the position defended in this uninformed article that is obviously written by someone on the basis of his theoretical knowledge and lack any real understanding in the real-politics of the region.(Though thanks to his theory he really does not need to know the region at all, as it is obvious from start capitalist world order and imperial powers are so strong and nationalism is a given political characteristic of backward nations, you can judge them at will and condemn their political organisations without evidence.)

NOTE: please someone make this factually wrong articles written by internationalist communists of some sort to stop. They are not funny anymore. ( I used to have a life, a happy family of my own. Now it is all lost thanks to International communism :D ) I mean there was this one: https://libcom.org/library/internationalism-only-response-kurdish-issue-international-communist-current (that claimed for example leader of PKK Karayilan said in an interview that their ultimate aim is "state building" in 2007. There was no reference. I checked the internet, could not find anything like it. But found he actually said the opposite in an interview at the same year) and now this one.

NOTE 2: however I have a question now. Cleishbotham is this the ICT is same as ICC ? as I am reading most of their stuff nowadays maybe I should learn more. ( I become a proofreader for these organizations, maybe I should charge for my services? Come on whose with me? I am the real proletariat not flawed with an oppressed ethnic identity)

kurekmurek

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 15, 2014

http://www.demokrathaber.net/dunya/salih-muslim-kobanideki-son-durumu-anlatti-h39595.html

Salih Muslim says: The air-strikes were very very successful. In a short time, we will report to the world liberation of Kobane.

He also said we are nnot happy with the support of Iraq Kurdistan Regional Govenrment. They should help much more.

He also says: Turkey did not fulfill his "neighborhood duties". He hopes that Turkey will show the world that It is against Kobane by siding with coalition forces. Ankara (turkey) practically did nothing.

klas batalo

9 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on October 15, 2014

ICT /= ICC can you read and look at websites???

also interesting about PYD leader about to announce the liberation of Kobane..that'll sure make the @ universe and other leftists go ecstatic...and in general it'd be a good thing cuz fuck what's going on...and idk maybe we can go back to political critique without emotions if they are not directly under threat...