The experiment of West Kurdistan (Syrian Kurdistan) has proved that people can make changes - Zaher Baher

Kurdish residents in Syria celebrate election of self-government officials, January 2014

An interesting report by Zaher Baher of Haringey Solidarity Group and Kurdistan Anarchists Forum who spent two weeks in Syrian Kurdistan, looking at the experiences of self-government in the region against the background of the Syrian civil war and rise of Islamic State.

Submitted by Steven. on August 26, 2014

What you read below is the experience of my visit, for a couple of weeks in May this year, 2014, to North East of Syria or Syrian Kurdistan (West of Kurdistan) with a close friend of mine.

Throughout the visit we had the total freedom and opportunity to see and speak to whoever we wanted to. This includes women, men, youth, and the political parties. There are over 20 parties from Kurdish to Christian, of which some are in the Democratic Self Administration (DSA) or Democratic Self Management (DSM) of the region of Al Jazera. Al Jazera is one of three regions, (cantons) of West Kurdistan. We also met the Kurdish and Christian political parties who are not in the DSA or DSM. In addition, we met the top people from the Democratic Self Administration (DSM), members of the different committees, local groups and communes as well as businesspeople, shopkeepers, workers, people in the market and people who were just walking in the street.

The background

Kurdistan is a land of around 40 million people that was divided between Iraq, Syria, Iran and Turkey after the First World War. Historically, the Kurds have suffered massacres and genocide at the hands of successive regimes, especially in Iraq and Turkey. Since then they have continuously suffered and been oppressed at the hands of the central governments of the countries Kurdistan was annexed to. In Iraqi Kurdistan, under Saddam Hussein's regime, the Kurdish people suffered chemical weapon attacks under Operation Anfal1 . In Turkey, until recently, Kurds did not even have the basic rights of talking in their own language. Historically, they have been recognized as the Turkish who live in the mountains (a reference to the Kurdistan region as there are so many mountains there). In Syria, the Kurds’ situation was little better than Turkey. In Iran they have some basic rights and are recognized as forming a different nation from Persians but have no autonomy.

After the first gulf war in 1991, the Kurdish people in Iraq managed to set up their own regional government, the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG). After the invasion and occupation of Iraq in 2003, the Kurdish people took advantage of this to strengthen their local power. They managed to gain the right to having their own self administration, budget, parliaments and army. These have now all been recognized by the central Iraqi Government and, to a certain extent, are supported by the central government. This has encouraged and had a positive impact on the other parts of Kurdistan, especially in Turkey and Syria.

In the same year as the invasion of Iraq (2003), the Kurdish people in Syria set up their own party, the Democratic Union Party (PYD); although there were already a number of other Kurdish parties and organizations that existed in the region. Some of them are so old that they date back to the 1960s, but they were ineffective compared to the PYD which has developed and spread rapidly among the Kurdish people there.

The Arab Spring

The Arab Spring reached Syria at the beginning of 2011 and, after a short time, spread to the Syrian Kurdistan regions /cantons of: Al Jazera, Kobany and Afrin. The protest among the Kurdish people in those three cantons was very strong and effective. This, to a certain extent, caused the withdrawal of the Syrian army in the Kurdish cantons apart from some areas of Al Jazera which I will explain further on.

In the meantime, the people there, with the support of the PYD & PKK, formed the Tev-Dam, (the Movement of the Democracy Society). This movement quickly became very strong and popular among the region’s population. Once the Syrian army and administration had withdrawn, the situation became very chaotic, (I will explain why). This forced the Tev-Dam to implement its plans and programs without further delay before the situation became worse.

The Tev-Dam’s programme was very inclusive and covered every single issue in society. Many people from the rank and file and from different backgrounds, including Kurdish, Arab, Muslim, Christian, Assyrian and Yazidis, have been involved. The first task was to establish a variety of groups, committees and communes on the streets in neighborhoods, villages, counties and small and big towns everywhere. The role of these groups was to become involved in all the issues facing society. Groups were set up to look at a number of issues including: women’s, economic, environmental, education and health and care issues, support and solidarity, centers for the family martyrs, trade and business, diplomatic relations with foreign countries and many more. There are even groups established to reconcile disputes among different people or factions to try to avoid these disputes going to court unless these groups are incapable of resolving them.

These groups usually have their own meeting every week to talk about the problems people face where they live. They have their own representative in the main group in the villages or towns called the “House of the People”.

The Tev-Dam, in my opinion, is the most successful organ in that society and could achieve all the tasks they have been set. I believe the reasons for its success are:

1. The will, determination and power of the people who believe that they can change things.
2. The majority of people believe in working voluntarily at all levels of service to make the event/experiment successful.
3. They have set up an army of defence consisting of three different parts: the People’s Defence Units (PDU), the Women’s Defence Units (WDU) and the Asaish (a mixed force of men and women that exists in the towns and all the checkpoints outside the towns to protect civilians from any external threat). In addition to these forces, there is a special unit for women only, to deal with issues of rape and domestic violence.

From what I have seen, Syrian Kurdistan has taken a different route (and, in my opinion, the right one) from the “Arab Spring” and the two cannot be compared. There are a couple of major differences between them.

1. What happened in the countries that were part of the “Arab Spring“were great events and many kicked out tyranny in those countries. The “Arab Spring” in the case of Egypt, produced an Islamic State then a military dictatorship. Other countries fared little better. This shows that people are powerful and can be the heroes of history at a particular time but they were not in a position to achieve what they wanted in the long term. This is one of the major differences between the “Arab Spring” and the “Kurdish Spring” in Syrian Kurdistan where the latter could achieve what they wanted long term - or, at least, so far.

2. In Syrian Kurdistan the people were prepared and knew what they wanted. They believed that the revolution must start from the bottom of society and not from the top. It must be a social, cultural and educational as well as political revolution. It must be against the state, power and authority. It must be people in the communities who have the final decision-making responsibilities. These are the four principles of the Movement of the Democracy Society (Tev-Dam). Credit needs to be given to whoever is behind these great ideas and the efforts being made to put them into practice, whether it’s Abdulla Ocallan and his comrades or anybody else. In addition, people in Syrian Kurdistan set up many local groups under different names to make their revolution work. In the other “Arab Spring” countries, people were not prepared and knew only that they wanted to get rid of the current government but not the system. Also, the vast majority of the people thought that the only revolution is the revolution from the top. Setting up local groups was not undertaken except by a tiny minority of anarchists and libertarians.

The Democratic Self Administration (DSA)

After a lot of hard work, discussions and thought, the Tev-Dam has reached the conclusion that they need a DSA in all three Cantons of Kurdistan (Al Jazera, Kobany and Afrin). In the middle of January, 2014, the People’s Assembly elected their own DSA, with autonomy, to implement and execute the decisions from the “House of the People” (the main Tev-Dam committee) and to take over some of the administration work in the local authorities, municipalities, education and health departments, trade and business organizations, defence and judiciary systems etc. The DSA is made up of 22 men and women with each of them having two deputies (one a man and the other a woman). Almost half the representatives are women. It is organized so that people from different backgrounds, nationalities, religions and genders can all participate. This has created a very good atmosphere of peace, brother/sisterhood, satisfaction and freedom.

In a short space of time, this administration has done quite a lot of work and issued a Social Contract, Transport Law, Parties Law and a programme or plan for the Tev-Dam. In the Social Contract, the first page states, “the areas of self-management democracy do not accept the concepts of state nationalism, military or religion or of centralized management and central rule but are open to forms compatible with the traditions of democracy and pluralism, to be open to all social groups and cultural identities and Athenian democracy and national expression through their organization ...” There are many decrees in the Social Contract. A few are extremely important for society, including:

A. Separation of state from religion
B. Banning marriages under the age of 18 years
C. Women’s and children’s rights must be recognized, protected and implemented
D. Banning female circumcision
E. Banning polygamy.
F. The revolution must take place from the bottom of society and be sustainable
G. Freedom, equality, equal opportunity and non- discrimination.
H. Equality between men and women
I. All languages people speak must be recognized and Arabic, Kurdish and Syrian are the official languages in Al Jazera
J. To provide a decent life for prisoners and to make prison a place for rehabilitation and reform.
K. Every human being has the right to seek asylum and refugees may not be returned without his/her consent.

The economic situation in Al Jazera Canton

The population of Jazera is over one million people. This population consists of Kurds as well as Arabs, Christians, Chechens, Yazidis, Turkmens, Assyrians, Chaldeans and Armenians. 80% percent of the population is Kurdish. There are many Arab and Yazidis villages plus up to 43 Christian villages.

The size of Al Jazera is bigger than Israel and Palestine combined. In the 1960s, the Syrian regime implemented a policy in the Kurdish area called the “Greenbelt” which the Ba’ath party continued when they came to power. This stated that conditions for Kurds would be worse compared to those for Syrian people with regards to political, economic and social life and also education. The main point of the Greenbelt was to bring Arabs from different areas to settle in Kurdish areas and to confiscate Kurdish lands which were then distributed amongst the recently-arrived Arab people. In short, Kurdish citizens under Assad came third, after Arabs and Christians.

Another policy was that Al Jazera should only produce wheat and oils. This meant that the government made sure that there would be no factories, companies or industry in the area. Al Jazera produces 70% of Syrian wheat and is very rich in oils, gas and phosphates. So the majority of people were involved in agriculture in the small towns and villages, and as traders and shopkeepers in the bigger towns. In addition, many people were employed by the government in education, health and local authorities, in military service as soldiers and as small contractors in municipalities.

From 2008, the situation deteriorated as Assad’s regime issued a special decree to ban construction of any big buildings justified by the situation arising from the war (referring to continuous war in the region) and also because the area is remote and on the border. Currently, the situation is bad. There are sanctions imposed by both Turkey and the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) in Iraqi Kurdistan (I will explain this in other sections). Life in Al Jazera is very simple and living standards are very low but they do not have poverty. The people, in general, are happy giving priority to what they have achieved in order to be successful.

Some of the necessities any society needs to survive exist in West Kurdistan which is important, at least for the time being, to avoid starvation, stand on their own two feet and resist the boycotts sanctions by Turkey and KRG . These necessities include having lots of wheat to make bread and pastries. As a result, the price of bread is almost free. The second thing is that oil is also cheap and, as people say,” its price is like the price of water”. People use oil for everything; in the home, driving vehicles and making a little equipment needed for a range of industries. To facilitate this dependence on oil, the Tev-Dam reopened some of the oil wells and refining depots. At the moment, they are producing more oil than they need in the region so they are able to export some and also store any excess.

Electricity is a problem because most is produced in the neighboring region under the control of Isis (currently is IS The Islamic State of Iraq and Levant or Islamic State). Therefore, people only have electricity for about 6 hours a day. But it’s free as people are not charged for it. This has partly been resolved by the Tev-Dam by selling diesel, at a very low price, to anybody with a private generator on the condition they supply power to local residents at a very cheap rate as well.

In terms of phone communication, all mobile phones are either using the KRG line or Turkey’s line; depending on where you are. Land lines are under the control of the Tev-Dam & DSA and seem to be working well... Again, this is free.

The shops and markets in the towns are normally open from early morning until 11pm at night. Many of the goods from neighboring countries are smuggled into the region. Other goods do come from other parts of Syria but they are expensive due to heavy taxes payable to Syrian forces or terrorist groups who allow goods into the Al Jazera region.

The Political Situation in Al Jazera

As mentioned, most of Assad’s army withdrew from the region but some still remain in a couple of towns in Al Jazera. The regime still has control over half of the main town (Hassaka) while the other half is in the hands of the PDU (The People’s Defence Units).

Government forces remain in the second town in the region (Qamchlo) where they control a small area in the centre of town. However, in the occupied area, the vast majority of people do not use the offices and services centers. The number of the regime’s force in this town is between 6 and 7,000 and they only have control over the airport and the post office.

Both sides seem to recognize the position, power and authority of one another and refrain from clashes or confrontation. I call this situation, the policy of “no peace, no war”. This does not mean there have not been clashes between them in either Hassaka or Qamchlo. Clashes do happen causing the deaths of many people from both sides but, so far, the head of the Arab tribes makes the two sides coexist.

Both sides have taken advantage of the withdrawal of the Syrian army and not fighting with the Kurdish protesters and its military forces saves a lot of cost and expense. Further, the government does not have to protect the area from other opposition forces , as the Kurdish forces do this instead. Also, by withdrawing from Kurdish lands, Assad has freed up forces which can be used elsewhere against other opponents. Secondly, with Assad’s forces leaving Kurdistan, it is protected and defended by the Kurdish people. Indeed, the units defending the people and women protect their own people from any attack or any force, including Turkey, much better than the Syrian army.

The Kurdish people have also benefited in the following ways:

1. They have stopped fighting the government and this has protected their land and property, saving many lives and leaving people in peace and freedom. This has created an opportunity for everybody to live in peace and without fear when running their own business.
2. The government still pays the wages of its old employees although almost all of them, at present, are working under the control of the DSA. This obviously helps the economic situation there.
3. This situation has allowed people to manage their own lives and make their own decisions. It also means that people are allowed to live under the authority of the Tev-Dam and DSA. The longer this happens then the more chance they have to firmly settle and make themselves stronger.
4. This gives the People’s Defence Units and Women’s Defence Units opportunities to fight terrorist groups, especially Isis/IS, as and when necessary.

In Al Jazera, there are more than twenty political parties among the Kurdish and Christian people. The majority of them are in opposition to the PYD, the Tev-Dam and the DSA for their own reasons (a point I will come back to later on) as they do not want to join either Tev-Dam or the DSA. However, they have total freedom to carry out their activities without any restriction. The only thing they cannot have is fighters or militias under their own control.

Women and the Role of Women

There is no doubt that women and their roles have been greatly accepted and they have filled both high and low positions in the Tev-Dam, PYD and DSA. They have a system called Joint Leaders and Joint Organizers. This means that the head of any office; administration or military section must include women. In addition to this, the women have their own armed forces. There is total equality between women and men. Women are a major force and are heavily involved in every section of the House of the People, committees, groups and communes. Women in West Kurdistan do not form just half of society, but are the most effective and important half of that society to the extent that if women stop working or withdraw from the above groups, Kurdish society may well collapse. There are many professional women in politics and the military who were with the PKK in the mountains for a long time. They are very tough, very determined, very active, very responsible and extremely brave.

The importance of the equal participation of women in rebuilding society and in all issues/questions has been taken seriously by Abdulla Ocallan and the rest of the PKK / PYD leaders to the extent that women in West Kurdistan (Syrian Kurdistan) are considered sacred. It is part of Ocallan’s idea, dream and belief that if you want to see the best of human nature then society must return to the state of the Maternal Society but, obviously, in an advanced stage.

Although this is the position of women and although they have freedom, love, sex and relationships among the women involved in the struggle are extremely rare. The women and men we spoke to believed that the above (love, sex, relationships) are not appropriate at this stage as they are involved in revolution and have to give everything to the revolution in order to succeed. When I asked, if two people in military service or sensitive positions are in love with each other, what would happen, I was told that, obviously, nobody can prevent this but they must be moved to more suitable positions or sections.

This may be difficult for Europeans to understand. How can people live without love, sex and relationships? But, for me, it’s perfectly understandable. I believe it is their choice and, if people are free to choose, then it must be respected. However, there is one interesting observation which I made and which was outside military service, the Tev-Dam and other parties. I have not seen a single woman working in a shop, petrol station, market, café or restaurant. But, women and women’s issues in Syrian Kurdistan are miles ahead of those in Iraqi Kurdistan where they have had 22 years of their own Self Rule and so much more opportunity. Saying that, I still cannot say there is a special or independent movement of the women in Syrian Kurdistan.

The Communes

The Communes were the most active cells in the House of the People, and have been set up everywhere. They have their own regular weekly meeting to discuss the problems they face. Each Commune has their own representative in the House of the People and in the neighborhood, village or town where they are based.

Below is the definition of the Commune from the Tev-Dam manifesto and translated from Arabic:

“Communes are the smallest cells and the most activist in society. They are formed practically in society and there is freedom of women and ecology and the adoption of direct democracy.

“The Communes form on the principle of direct participation of people in the villages, on the street and the neighborhoods and the towns. These are the places that people willingly organize themselves with their opinion, create their free will and initiate their activities in whole residential areas and open the door for discussion about all the issues and their solution.

”Communes work on developing and promoting the committees. They talk and search for solutions of social matters, political, education, securities and self- defending & self-protection from its own power, not from the state. Communes create their own power through building organization in the form of agricultural communes in the villages and also communes, cooperatives and associations in the neighborhoods.

“Forming the Communes on the street, villages and towns with participation of all the residents. Communes have a meeting every week. In the meeting Communes make all its decisions openly by people who are in the Commune and are older than 16 years-old.”

We went to a meeting of one the communes based in the neighborhood of Cornish in the town of Qamchlo. There were 16 to 17 people in the meeting. The majority of them were young women. We engaged in a deep conversation about their activities and their tasks. They told us that in their neighborhood they have 10 Communes and the membership of each Commune is 16 people. They told us “We act in the same way as community workers including meeting people, attending the weekly meetings, checking any problems in the places we are based, protecting people in the community and sorting out their problems, collecting the rubbish in the area, protecting the environment and attending the biggest meeting to report back about what happened in the last week”.

In response to one of my questions, they confirmed that nobody, including any of the political parties, intervenes in their decision making and that they make all the decisions collectively. They mentioned a few things that they had recently made a decision about. They said “One of them concerned a big piece of land in a residential area we wanted to use for a little park. We went to the Mayor of the town to tell him about our decision and asked for financial help. The Mayor told us that would be fine but they only had $100 to offer us. We took the money and collected another $100 from the local people to build a nice little park”. They showed us the park and told us “many of us collectively worked on it to finish it without needing more money”. In another example they told us, “The Mayor wanted to initiate a project in the neighborhood. We told him we cannot accept it until we get opinions from everybody. We had a meeting where we discussed it. The meeting unanimously rejected it. There were people that could not make the meeting so we went to see them in their houses to get their opinion. Everybody in the commune said no to the project”

They asked us about local groups and communes in London. I told them that we have many groups but we are unfortunately not like them- united, progressive and committed. I told them that they are miles ahead of us. From their faces I could see their surprise, disappointment and frustration to my answer. I could understand their feelings because they think how, in a very backward world like theirs; can they be ahead of us, while we live in the country that had the industrial revolution centuries ago!!!!!

The Kurdish and Christians opposition parties

I said before that there are more than 20 Kurdish political parties. A few have joined the DSA but sixteen didn’t. Some have withdrawn from politics while others have joined together to set up a bigger party. There are now twelve parties set up under an umbrella name, The Patriotic Assembly of Kurdistan in Syria. This organization, more or less, shares the same goals and strategies. The majority of the parties under this umbrella support Massoud Barzani, the President of the Kurdistan Regional Government, (KRG), who is also the leader of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) in Iraqi Kurdistan.

There is a bloody history between the KDP and PKK that dates back to the 1990s. There was heavy fighting between the two groups in Iraqi Kurdistan which left thousands dead on both sides and this is a wound which has yet to heal. I must mention that Turkey’s government had a hand in the fighting as they were close to the KDP and helped attack PKK force on the Iraq/Turkey border for their own reasons.

There is another dispute between Barzani and his family with the former head of the PKK, Abdulla Ocallan, which is about the Kurdish leader’s position as the Kurdish national leader. While the Kurdish people in West Kurdistan (Syrian Kurdistan) have managed to collectively organize their society, protecting it from war and setting up their own DSA, they are still not on very good terms with the KDP.

The PKK and Democratic Union Party (PYD) have been very supportive of the changes happening in Syrian Kurdistan. But, this is certainly not beneficial to either Turkey or the KRG. Meanwhile Turkey and the KRG remain extremely close.

The above is an explanation as to why the KDP in Iraqi Kurdistan are unhappy about what happened in West Kurdistan and are opposed to both the DSA and Tev-Dam. The KDP looks at what happened there a big business and, either this business should not run at all or, if it does run, then the KDP must have the biggest share of this business. The KDP still helps some Kurdish people in West Kurdistan financially and with weapons training in an attempt to set up militias for some of the political parties in order to destabilize the area and its plans. The Patriotic Assembly of Kurdistan in Syria, set up by the twelve political parties mentioned before, is very close to the KDP.

Our meeting with the opposition parties lasted for over two hours and the majority of them were present. We started by asking them how they got on with the PYD, DSA and Tev-Dam. Do they have freedom? Have any of their members or supporters been followed or arrested by the PDU and WDU? Do they have freedom to organize people, demonstrate and organize other activities? Many more questions were asked. The answer to every single question was positive. No arrests were made, no restrictions on freedom or organizing demonstrations. But all of them shared the point that they do not want to take part in the DSA.

They have three disputes with the PYD and DSA. They believe that the PYD and Tev-Dam have betrayed the Kurdish people. Their reasons for this included the fact that half of Hassaka is under the control of the government and that the government’s forces are still in the town of Qamchlo although they admitted these forces are ineffective and only control a small amount of land. Their view is that this is a big problem and the PYD and Tev-Dam compromised with the Syrian regime badly.

We told them that they should think that the PYD and Tev-Dam’s policy is the policy of “No peace, No war” to balance the situation. It has been successful and benefited everybody in the region including all the opposition parties and because of the other reasons already mentioned above. We also said they should know better than us that kicking out Assad’s army from both towns is easy for the PYD with the sacrifice of a few of their fighters but what will happen after that?!! We told them we know that Assad does not want to give up Hassaka and, therefore, the war will start again with killing, persecution, bombardments and the destruction of towns and villages. Also, this opens a door for Isis/IS and al-Nusra to launch an attack on all of them. There would be the possibility of Assad’s army, the Syrian Free Army and the rest of the terrorist organizations all fighting each other in the region with the consequence of losing everything achieved so far. They had no response to this.

The opposition does not want to join the DSA and the next election of this body will take place in a few months time if the situation remains the same. Their reasons for this are, firstly, that they accuse the PYD of co-operating with the regime, while they did not have any evidence to prove this accusation. Secondly, the next election won’t be a free election as the PYD is not a democratic party, but a bureaucratic party. But we know that the PYD has almost the same numbers and positions as any other party in the DSA so statement is incorrect. We told them that if they believe in the election process they should participate if they want to see an administration with more democracy and less bureaucracy. They said that the PYD had withdrawn from the Kurdish National Conference of the KRG, which took place last year in the town of Irbil, to discuss the Kurdish issue. But when we checked this later on with people in the PYD and Tev-Dam, they told us they have evidence of a written document which shows that they committed to the pact but that the opposition did not commit.

The opposition wants to establish their own army, but they are not allowed to by the PYD. When we took this issue back to the PYD and Tev-Dam we were told the opposition could have their own fighters but they must be under the control of the units of the Defence of the People and Defence of Women.. They told us the situation is very sensitive and very tense. It may cause fighting between one another and that this is our great fear and we cannot afford to let it happen. The PYD simply said they do not want the same failure repeated in West Kurdistan. By failure experiment, they were referring to the experiment of Iraqi Kurdistan in the second half of the 20th century which lasted to the end of the century where there were so many fights between different Kurdish organizations at the time. In the end, the PYD and Tev-Dam asked us to go back to the opposition parties with the authority to offer them, on behalf of the PYD and Tev-Dam, anything except letting them have military forces under their own control.

A few days after that we had another meeting for almost three hours in Qamchlo town with the head of the three Kurdish parties: The Kurdistan Democratic Party in Syria ( Al Party),the Kurdistan Party for Democracy and Equality in Syria and The Kurdish Patriotic Democracy Party in Syria. In the meeting, they more or less repeated the reasons for their colleagues, in the previous meeting, not joining the DSA and Tev-Dam to build and develop Kurdish society. We had a long discussion with them, trying to convince them that, if they wanted the Kurdish issue to be resolved, a powerful force in the country and to avoid war and distraction, then they should be independent from the KRG and KDP and work in the interest of nobody but the people of West Kurdistan. Most of the time they were silent and had no response to our suggestions.

A few days later we also met representatives from a couple of Christian political parties and the Christian Youth Organization in Qamchlo. None of these parties have joined the DSA or Tev-Dam for their own reasons but admitted that they get on well with the DSA and Tev-Dam and are fine with their policies. They also appreciated that their safety, and protection from the Syrian army and terrorist groups was due to the forces of the Defence of the People and Defence of Women who have sacrificed their lives to achieve all of the above for everybody in the region. However, the people from the Christian Youth Organisation in Qamchlo were not happy with the DSA and Tev-Dam. Their complaint was about not having enough electrical power and not much for the youth to do or be involved in within the town. Because of this they said they will seek an alternative to the DSA and Tev-Dam, so that, if the situation remains the same, then they will have no choice but to emigrate to Europe. The head of one of the political parties who was present in the meeting responded to them by saying

what are you talking about Son? we are in the middle of a war, can you see what happened in the rest of the main towns in Syria?, Can you see how many women, men, elderly and children are killed daily?!!! There is an important issue which is very important in life. Power in this particular situation is not very important; we can use other means instead. What is important right now is: sitting at home with no fear of being killed, leaving our children on the streets, playing with no fear of being kidnapped or killed. We can run our business as usual, nobody restricts us, nobody assaults or insults us.... there is peace, there is freedom, and there is social justice.....

The members of the other political parties agreed and acknowledged all these facts.

Before we left the region we decided to speak to shopkeepers, businessmen, stall holders and people on the market to hear their views which were very important to us. Everyone seemed to have a very positive view and opinion of the DSA and Tev-Dam. They were happy about the existence of peace, security and freedom and running their own business without any interference from any parties or sides.

The Shameful Trench

Last year the KRG and Iraqi government agreed, allegedly for security reasons, to dig a 35-kilometre long trench, over two meters deep and about two meters wide, on the Iraqi/Syrian border of Kurdistan. The Trench separates Al Jazera in West Kurdistan from Iraqi Kurdistan in the south. The Tigris river covers five kilometers of this border so there was no need for a trench there. The next twelve kilometers were constructed by the KRG, with the final eighteen kilometers built by the Iraqi government.

Both the KRG and Iraqi government say that the Trench was a necessary measure because of fears over peace and security within Iraqi lands including the Kurdistan region. But there are big questions people always ask about these fears. What fear? From whom? From Isis/Is? It is impossible for groups like Isis/Is to get into Iraq or KRG through that part of Syria as it has been protected by PDU and WDU forces and also Al Jazera has been cleared of Isis/Is completely. However, the majority of Kurdish people know that there are a couple of reasons for digging the trench. Firstly, it is to stop Syrians fleeing the war from reaching Iraqi Kurdistan. Also, the head of the KRG, Massoud Barzani, as explained above, is worried about the PKK and PYD and therefore he and the KRG want to stop them or anybody else from the DSA entering this part of Kurdistan. Secondly, the trench will increase the effectiveness of the sanctions used against West Kurdistan in an attempt to strangle and pressurize them to the point of surrender so as to give into KRG conditions. However, given the choice between surrender and starvation for the Kurds in Syrian Kurdistan, I feel they may choose starvation. This is the reason why the majority of Kurds, wherever they live, call the Trench the “shameful trench”...

There is no doubt that the sanctions have crippled Kurdish life in Al Jazera as the people need everything including medicine, money, doctors, nurses, teachers, technicians and expertise in industrial areas, especially in the oilfield and refining industry to make them work. In Al Jazera, they have thousands of tons of wheat which they are happy to sell for $200 to $250 a ton to Iraqi’s government but it pays $600 to $700 for each ton of wheat elsewhere.

There are people in West Kurdistan who do not understand why the KRG, as a Kurdish self rule government, and its President, Massoud Barzani, (who calls himself a great Kurdish leader) want to starve their own people in another part of Kurdistan.

In Qamchlo, the Tev-Dam called a large, peaceful demonstration on Saturday, 9th of May, 2014. A few thousand people took part against those who dug the shameful trench. There were many powerful speeches from different people and organizations, including the House of the People and many other groups and committees. None of their speeches created more tension between them. People mainly concentrated on brotherhood, good relationships and co-operation between both sides of the border, reconciliation between all the disputed parties and peace and freedom in their speeches. In the end it became a street party with people dancing happily and singing, particularly anthems.

Expectation and fears

It is very difficult to know what direction the mass movement of people in West Kurdistan will take, but that does not mean restricting us from expectation and analyzing what may affect the direction of this movement and its future. The complete victory or defeat of this big event/experiment that the region, at least for a long time, has not seen depends on so many factors that can be divided into internal ( internal issues and problems inside the movement itself and with the KRG ) and external factors.

However, whatever happens in the end we have to face it, but what’s important is: the resistance, defying and challenging, not surrendering, confidence and believing in making changes. Rejecting the current system and grabbing the opportunities are more important, in my opinion, than temporary victory, because all these are the key points needed to reach the final goal.

The external factors

The direction of the war and the balance of the forces inside Syria:

It was quite clear in the beginning of the people’s uprising in Syria, that, if it was to benefit the Syrian people, then the expected ending of Assad’s regime would not take that long when people united with great support both inside and outside the country. However, after a while, the terrorist groups got involved and changed the direction of the people’s uprising as we all have seen and still see this through the media. This happened because Assad was very clever in implementing a couple of policies which directly affected the direction of the people’s uprising and making his regime strong.

Firstly, he withdrew all his forces in the three Kurdish regions/cantons of Afrin, Kobany and Al Jazera except for a few thousand in the Al Jazeera region as I explained previously. Obviously, a part of the reason for withdrawal was due to pressure from the Kurdish protesters.

Secondly, he opened the Syrian border to terrorist organizations to do what they wanted. We all know by now what happened then. By doing this, Assad managed to weaken and isolate the protestors against his regime and also sent a message to the so-called “international community” to tell them that there was no alternative to him and his regime except the terrorist groups. Do the US, UK, Western countries and the rest really want that? Of course, to a certain extent, the answer is No. It all depends on their interests. These policies have worked very well and changed the direction of the battle completely.

So, there was a possibility of Assad remaining in power, at least for a short time after negotiating with the US, UN, UK and their agents until the next election. In that case, he might have learnt a lesson to change his policy towards the Kurdish people but on his own terms and conditions and not in the way the Kurdish people want.

If Assad was defeated in the war by the terrorist groups with the support of the US, UK, EU and the “International Community”, and they came to power, certainly there wouldn’t be any future for either the DSA or Tev-Dam. If the modern forces, like the parties or organizations making up the Free Syria Army (FSA) are still not in power, then there is very little chance for the Kurdish people as they do not have a positive opinion of or a good solution for the Kurdish question, let alone when it comes to power. Of course, there are other possibilities of ending Assad’s power including assassination or through a military coup...

The role and the influences of neighbouring countries in the region

It was very clear that ordinary people in Syria started the uprising due to existing suppression, oppression, lack of freedom and social justice, corruption, discrimination, lack of human rights, and no rights for ethnic minorities like Kurdish, Turkmen and others. Life for the majority of people was terrible; low incomes, the cost of living continuously rising, homelessness, and unemployment all served as inspiration for the “Arab Spring”.

However, the protests, demonstrations and uprising on the ground have been diverted by neighbouring rulers into a proxy war between Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey with the support of the US and Western countries on one side and Assad’s regime, Iran and Hezbollah on the other. The Iraqi government has not announced their support for Assad’s regime but they wanted, and still want, Assad to stay in power because of the close relationship between Shias and Alawites and also because Iran is Iraq’s closest ally, while Iran is also extremely close to Syria. What was left from the neighbouring countries was the KRG’s attitude towards what happens in Syria, due to KRG closeness, and, particularly, its President, Massoud Barzani, to Turkey in every respect. They announced, from the beginning, their support for the Syrian opposition to Assad’s regime. We must note here the double standards and hypocrisy of the KRG as, on the one hand, they are against Assad whilst supporting the opposition but, on the other hand, against the Kurdish in Syria and their popular mass movement while they are one of the main and constructive forces against Assad.

Obviously each country has a big impact as some of them are supporting Assad’s regime and others support the Syrian opposition. What is important here is to know that none of these countries are friends or close to the Kurdish nation in any part of Kurdistan, whether in Syrian Kurdistan, Iraq, Iran or Turkish Kurdistan. They never had a positive view on the Kurdish question and never,, genuinely,, wanted to resolve this question, but they had a positive view on the Kurdish nationalist political parties when these parties were working and fighting in their interests.

The Role of China and Russia

Although Russia has become much smaller and less powerful than before, it still has weight and power, in competition with the US and Western countries, over its interests. It is no surprise that we now see that Russia cannot reach agreement with the West over Assad’s regime. There is also the fact that Syria, even when Assad’s father was in power, was always in the Soviet camp. This is in addition to Russia being close to Iran which is the main ally of Syria.

With regards to China, China too has its own interests in the region, especially with Iran. Therefore, China tries to protect that interest as it is not to their benefit to see Assad go because it knows that next it will be Iran. So Russia and China’s interests and support for Syria make the war longer than expected. From the above, we can see how two powerful countries would deal with the Kurdish question in Syria, especially with the DSA and Tev-Dam. In my opinion, business and profits decide, in the end, whether or not they will support the Kurdish people in the future.

At present, there is no support for the DSA and Tev-Dam from China, Russia or from the US and Western countries while the Kurds in Syria are the main opposition and fighters against terrorist forces like Isis/IS, through the forces of the PDU and WDU. These units are constantly fighting these terrorist groups in the Kurdish regions of Al Jazera and Kobney.

We can see here the double standards and hypocrisy of the US, Western countries and the rest. They launched a war on terror while the Kurdish people in Syria are the only ones fighting the terrorist organizations seriously, but the above countries do not support the Kurds there. The major reasons for this, in my opinion, are:

1. They are not serious in fighting the terrorists and terrorism because they themselves or their alliance created and supported them
2. They fight the people who believe in Islam rather than fighting the religion itself and its holy book, Quran.
3. They may need this organization again in the future.
4. They do not want to alter their foreign policy or review it.
5. The US and UK support, financially and morally, all reactionary faiths under the name of equal opportunity, freedom and recognizing different cultures. We can already see more than one hundred Sharia Courts in the U.K.
6. The main point is that the mass democracy movement in Syrian Kurdistan, including the DSA, did not create religions or nationalist or liberal power. They know that people in this part of the world have given birth to people power, that they have proved that they can rule themselves through direct democracy without government and support from the US, Western countries and global financial institutions, like the IMF, WB and CBE (Central Bank of Europe).

The Internal Factors

By internal factors I mean whatever could happen inside West Kurdistan itself. This includes the following:

The civil war among the Kurdish people. Here I do not mean just a war among the political parties inside West Kurdistan but the war between the KRG in Iraqi Kurdistan and the forces of the PDU, WDU and PKK.

There is a very close relationship between the PKK and PYD who are behind this experiment in West Kurdistan and have been very supportive. I mentioned previously that there has been a history of bloodshed between the PKK and KDP and also a sharp dispute between them over the Kurdish leadership.

However, for some time, Abdulla Ocallan, in recent books and text /messages, has denounced and rejected the state and authority. But until now I have not heard that he has rejected his own authority and denounce those people calling him a great leader and who work hard to give him a sacred position. Ocallan’s attitude cannot be correct unless he also rejects his own authority and leadership.

At the moment, the situation is getting worse and the KRG’s relationship with the PYD and PKK is deteriorating, so there is a possibility of fighting between them especially as the KRG is, day by day, getting closer to Turkey. Once this war starts there is no doubt that Isis/IS and others will take part in fighting on the side of the KRG and Turkey. The only way to stop this happening is through mass protests, demonstrations and mass occupations in Iraqi Kurdistan and by friends of Syrian Kurdish elsewhere.

Tev-Dam becomes weak

As explained above, it was Tev-Dam that created this situation, with its groups, committees, communes and the House of the People which is the soul and mind of the mass movement. Tev-Dam was the major force in setting up the DSA. In general, it is the existence of Tev-Dam that makes the difference to forcing the outcome of what might happen there and to be the inspiration to the rest of the region.

It is hard for me to see the balance between the power of Tev-Dam and the DSA in the future. I got the impression that as long as the power of the DSA increases the power of Tev-Dam decreases and the opposite could be right too.

I have raised this point with the comrades of Tev-Dam. They disagreed with me as they believe the more powerful the DSA becomes, the more powerful Tev-Dam will be. Their reason for this was that they look at the DSA as the executive body, executing and implementing whole decisions made by Tev-Dam and Tev-Dam organs. However, I cannot agree or disagree with them because the future will show the direction the whole movement and society will take.

The PYD and its party structures

The PYD , United Democratic Party and PKK are behind the mass democracy movement there and are political parties having all the conditions that a political party needs in that part of the world : hierarchical organization, leaders and lead people, and all orders and commands from the leaders coming down to the bottom of the party. There has not been much consultation with members when it comes to making a decision on big issues. They are very well-disciplined, have rules and orders to go by, secrets and secret relationships with different parties, either in power or not, in different part of the world.

On the other hand, I can see Tev-Dam as being exactly the opposite. Many people inside this movement have not been members of the PKK or PYD. They believe the revolution must start from the bottom of society and not from the top, they do not believe in state powers and authority and they come together in meetings to make their own decisions about whatever they want and whatever is in the best interests of the people where they are based. After that, they ask the DSA to execute their decisions. There are many more differences between the PYD and PKK and the Movement of Democracy Society, Tev-Dam.

The question here is: While that is the task and the nature of Tev-Dam and that is the structure of the PYD and PKK, how can a compromise happen? Does Tev-Dam follow the PYD and PKK or do they follow the Tev-Dam, or who controls who?

This is the question that I cannot answer and have to wait and see. However, I believe the answer is probably in the near future.

The fear of Ideology and Ideologists that can became sacred

Ideology is a view. Looking at or seeing anything from the ideological perspective can be a disaster as it gives you a ready solution or answer, but does not connect with the reality of the situation. Most of the time, ideologists are looking at the words of old books that were written a long time ago to find the solution while those books are not relevant to the current problem or situation.

Ideologists can be dangerous when they want to impose their ideas taken from what has been written in the old books, on the present situation or on the rest of us. They are very narrow-minded, very persistent, stick with their ideas and are out of touch. They do not have respect for other people who do not share the same opinion as themselves. ideologists have many common points between them from religious people to Marxists and Communists. In short, the ideologists believe that Ideology, or thought, creates uprising or revolutions but for non-ideologists, people like me, the opposite is true.

It is very unfortunate that I found many ideologists among the PYD and Tev-Dam members, especially when it came to discussions about Abdulla Ocallan’s ideas. These people are very stuck with Ocallan’s principles, making them refer to his speeches and books in our discussions. They have total faith in him and, to a certain extent, he is sacred. If this is the faith that people have and put in their leader and are scared of him, it is very frightening and the consequences will not be good. For me, nothing should be sacred and everything can be criticized and rejected if they need to be. Worse than this, there is the House of Children and Youth Centers. In the House of Children and Youth Centers, children are taught about new ideas, the revolution and many positive things that children need to be raised with in order to be useful members of society. However, besides, these children are taught the ideology and the ideas and principles of Ocallan and how great he is as the leader of the Kurdish people. In my opinion, children should not be brought up believing in ideology. They should not have teaching on religion, nationality, race or colour. They should be free of them and leave them alone until they become adult when they can decide for themselves.

The Role of the Communes

In the previous pages I explained the communes and their roles. The communes’ duties have to be changed as they cannot just be involved in the problems where they have been set up and make decisions about the things going on there. The communes must increase their roles, duties and powers. It is true that there are no factories, companies nor industrial sections. But Al Jazera is an agricultural canton involving many people in villages and small towns and wheat is the major product in Al Jazera. This canton is also very rich in oil, gas and phosphates, although many of the oilfields are not in use due to the war and lack of maintenance even before the uprising.

So these are further areas for the communes to involve themselves in by controlling them, using them and distributing produce to the people according to their need for free. Whatever is left, after distribution, the members of the communes can decide and agree to deal with it; sell it, exchange it for necessary materials for the people or just simply store it for later when needed. If the communes do not step up to these tasks and maintain what they do now, obviously, their tasks will be uncompleted.

The Conclusion and my final words

There are so many different views and opinions from the right wing, left, separatists, Trotskyists, Marxists, communists, socialists, anarchists and libertarians about the future of the experiment in West Kurdistan, and, indeed, more deserves writing about it. For me, as an anarchist, I do not see the events as black or white, I do not have a ready solution for them and I also never go back to the old books to look for the solutions either to the events which, are now taking place or for the outcome of these current events I believe that the realities, the events themselves and the situation create the ideas and thoughts, not the opposite. I look at them with an open mind and connect them to so many, factors and reasons for their happening.

However, I must say a couple of things about every uprising and revolution, as they are very important for me. Firstly, the revolution is not expressing anger, is not created by order or command, is not something that can happen within twenty-four hours and is not a military coup, Bolshevik coup or the conspiracy of politicians. Also, it is not only the dismantling of society’s economic infrastructure and the abolition of social class. The above are all the views and opinions of lefties, Marxists and communists and their parties. These are their definitions of revolution. They look at the revolution in this way because they are dogmatic and see the relationships of existing classes in a mechanistic way. For them, when the revolution happens and abolishes class society, that is, the end of the story and Socialism can be established. In my opinion, even if the revolution succeeds, there are still possibilities that there will be a desire for authority, with it remaining within families, inside factories and companies, in schools, universities and many other places and institutions. This is in addition to the remaining differences between men and women and the authority of men over women within socialism. Moreover, a selfish and greedy culture will still remain, using violence with many other nasty habits which already exist in capitalist society. They cannot disappear or vanish in a short time. In fact, they are going to stay with us for a long, long time and could threaten the revolution.

So, changing the economic infrastructure of society and achieving victory over class society can neither give any guarantee that the revolution happened nor of maintaining it for a long time. I, therefore, believe that there must be a revolution in social life, in our culture, education, the mentality of individuals and individual behavior and thought. The revolutions in the above areas are not just necessary, but indeed, must happen before or alongside the changing of the economic infrastructure of society. I do not believe we are done, following the revolution in the economic infrastructure of society. It must reflect in all aspects of the life of society and its members. For me, people resent the current system and believe in changing it. They desire the tendency for rebellion, the consciousness of being used and exploited and, in addition, the mentality of resistance are extremely important to maintain the revolution.

How do I connect the above point to the experiment of the people in West Kurdistan?

In reply, I say this experiment has existed for over two years and there are generations who are witness to this. They are rebels or already have the tendency to rebellion, they live in harmony and a free atmosphere and are accustomed to new cultures: a culture of living together in peace and freedom, a culture of tolerance and give not just take, a culture of being very confident and defiant, a culture of belief in working voluntarily and for the benefit of the community, a culture of solidarity and living for each other and a culture of, you are first and I am second. In the meantime, it is true that life there is very difficult, where there is a lack of many basic and necessary resources and the standard of living is low, but people there are pleasant, happy and, at all times, smiling and vigilant, very simple and humble and the gap between rich and poor is small . All these have, firstly, helped people overcome the difficulties in their lives and the hardships. Secondly, the events, their personal history and the present environment in which they currently live has taught people that, in the future, they will not put up with a dictatorship, they will resist suppression and oppression, they will try to maintain what they had before; they have a spirit of defiance and challenge and they will not accept other people making decisions for them any longer. For all of these reasons, people will resist surrender, stand again on their own feet, fight for their rights and resist the return of the culture they used to live with before.

The second point is that some people tell us that while this movement has Abdulla Ocallan, the PKK and PYD behind it, then, if the people try to divert this experiment, the experiment will end or a dictator will take power. Well this is possible and can happen. But even in this situation, I do not think people in Syria or in West Kurdistan can, any longer, tolerate a dictatorship or a Bolshevik-type government. I believe the days have passed when the government in Syria can, as before, massacre 30,000 people in the town of Aleppo in a matter of a few days. Also the world has changed and is not as it was.

All that is left to say here is that what happened in West Kurdistan was not Ocallan’s Idea, as many people want to tell us. In fact this idea is very old and Ocallan developed these thoughts in prison, familiarizing himself with them through reading hundreds and hundreds of books, non-stop thinking and analyzing the experiences of nationalist movements, communist movements and their governments in the region and the world and why all of them failed and could not deliver what they claimed. The basis of all this is that he is convinced that the state, whatever its name and form, is a state and cannot disappear when replaced by another state. For this, Abdulla Ocallan deserves credit.

  • 1 Operation Anfal, or simply Anfal, was a genocidal campaign against the Kurdish people in northern Iraq, led by the Ba’athist Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and headed by Ali Hassan al-Majid, in the final stage of the Iran-Iraq war.

Comments

Steven.

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on August 26, 2014

I thought this report was interesting, however it did seem to be pretty uncritical of the PKK, who have done some pretty awful things (like their terror campaign against Turkish civilians) and Ocallan.

Also it doesn't really say anything about the relationship between workers and employers, or the working class. While it says that there are no factories, it does say there are farms - are these farmed by peasants, or wage labourers? And what about those who work in public services or in the oil industry?

Finally, there didn't appear to be that much in terms of what has changed in people's everyday lives. I couldn't really get this from the text.

Anyone know any more about this sort of thing, or got any more critical texts worth a look?

Devrim

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Devrim on August 26, 2014

iexist

I want to know how much of this is just bollocks cooked up by the PKK's propaganda for uncritical consumption by western lefties.

I'd say the overwhelming majority of it. To read it you certainly wouldn't imagine that this is an organisation whose leadership is openly advocating the ethnic cleansing of Arabs. I guess that doesn't fit in with the image they are selling these days.

Devrim

klas batalo

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on August 26, 2014

someone really needs to write a comprehensive article on all of this (and i mean from a critical internationalist perspective)

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on August 27, 2014

I don't know very much about the PKK/Kurdish struggle, and, as a result, I found this article very interesting. It certainly is an 'exclusive', inasmuch as it presents a new story about something we didn't know was happening.

However, it seems likely that the criticisms and caution of the above posters is correct. He is hugely ambiguous on Ocallan and the PKK, and, beyond that, he seems to have zero understanding of the mechanisms of state-building. Is there any evidence to suggest that a successful outcome for Tev Dam wouldn't represent either reintegration into some sort of reformed Syrian state and/or an independent Kurdish state? The political system he describes would seem to be parliamentary/representative democracy in waiting, with a few liberal tokenistic gestures.

This sort of contrarian 'anti-communist' anarchism is essentially liberalism: does he honestly believe that he is free of ideology? Does he believe there is no 'ideological' content in this extensive, wholly subjective account of a political movement? And are we actually supposed to believe that women are "genuinely equal" in West Kurdistan? Are women genuinely equal anywhere, at all, in the world, or have they been at any point in history?

Having said that, I really enjoyed reading it and I appreciate the guy writing it up.

Steven.

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on August 27, 2014

Caiman del Barrio

And are we actually supposed to believe that women are "genuinely equal" in West Kurdistan? Are women genuinely equal anywhere, at all, in the world, or have they been at any point in history?

Yes, this bit jarred with me as well. Later on he does point out that women seem to be almost entirely absent from workplaces, so I think he is saying that within the self-administration body women are equal. (But I would question this, as if women aren't equal outside, how can they be equal in it?)

Having said that, I really enjoyed reading it and I appreciate the guy writing it up.

Yes, me too and I would like to thank the author for writing it and e-mailing it to libcom.

Mark.

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on August 27, 2014

There are two interviews with KAF from 2010 up on libcom which are highly critical of the PKK. It might be helpful if KAF members could say why (or if) they believe things are different now.

https://libcom.org/blog/interview-kurdistan-anarchist-forum-kaf-%E2%80%8E-01042012

https://libcom.org/news/interview-anarchist-iraqui-kurdish-05032010

Steven.

Caiman del Barrio

Having said that, I really enjoyed reading it and I appreciate the guy writing it up.

Yes, me too and I would like to thank the author for writing it and e-mailing it to libcom.

I agree with this.

Joseph Kay

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on August 27, 2014

The social ecology crowd have been pushing the 'autonomy in Kurdistan' angle hard. Janet Biehl translated a book about it. My gut instinct is this is just returning the flattery after Ocalan apparently praising Bookchin, though I guess the PKK may have one eye on Chiapas as a seemingly viable strategy.

klas batalo

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on August 27, 2014

One thing that stood out to me really was the possibility for a power struggle between the Tev-Dam and the DSA that is pointed out here. Just sorta a comment, I thought of it from close study of other attempts at vaguely "council" experiments.

kurekmurek

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on August 30, 2014

Devrim

To read it you certainly wouldn't imagine that this is an organisation whose leadership is openly advocating the ethnic cleansing of Arabs. I guess that doesn't fit in with the image they are selling these days.

Devrim, can you clarify on what account do you claim this, please?

Devrim

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Devrim on August 30, 2014

Salih Muslim

One day those Arabs who have been brought to the Kurdish areas will have to be expelled

I can't source it now as I am on the phone, and it is difficult to access pro-PKK sites without a proxy, but I will find a source later.

Devrim

Devrim

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Devrim on August 30, 2014

Kurdish News Weekly Briefing, 3 – 29 November 2013

The leader of the Democratic Union Party (PYD), Salih Muslim, has warned that the Kurds’ future war would be with Arabs who have settled in the Kurdish areas with the help of the Syrian regime. “One day those Arabs who have been brought to the Kurdish areas will have to be expelled,” said Muslim in an interview with Serek TV. The PYD leader said that the situation in Qamishli and Hasakah is particularly explosive and that “if it continues the same way, there will be war between Kurds and Arabs.” Qamishli is the largest Kurdish city in Syria and Hasakah boasts most of the country’s oil wealth. Muslim’s own armed forces known as People’s Protection Units (YPG) have been in control of Syria’s Kurdish areas for the past year and a half.

This is from a pro-PKK site: http://peaceinkurdistancampaign.com/2013/11/29/kurdish-news-weekly-briefing-3-29-november-2013/

I did see it on the PYD site previously, but I can't find it now.

Devrim

kurekmurek

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on August 30, 2014

In that article he clearly mentions Syrian regime brings "those" Arabs, to whom he refers. "Syrian government policy has brought many Arabs to the Kurdish areas," said Muslim. "All the villages where they live now belong to the Kurds." There is nothing that supports your claim that West Kurdish Autonomous Region has ethnic cleansing policy (thus implying they are racist).

What I understand from the interview is this: In terms of war I think he means as the Arabs who benefited from old status quo (and current Esad Govenrment) and Kurds who suffered from it (and this apparently happened in the form of giving the land of Kurds to Arabs) will fall into a situation of war, unless the Kurds solution to current crisis in Syria is not implemented or at least considered (And their proposition is some form of federation of local democracies).

But as a general note: However as it might be tempting to grasp the "fundamental ideas" behind a social movement or a formation on the basis of some of its member's speeches or some of its conjectural declarations, It is generally better to judge and evaluate them in the context of their emergence and in the light of their programme.

Devrim

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Devrim on August 31, 2014

kurremkarmerruk

In that article he clearly mentions Syrian regime brings "those" Arabs, to whom he refers. "Syrian government policy has brought many Arabs to the Kurdish areas," said Muslim.

Oh, so they only call for a policy of expelling Arabs who "were brought there".

That's not how these things work in reality.

The overwhelming majority of the Arabs imported into Kurdish areas of Syria were moved there by the state in 1973. Considering that 53% of the population of Syria is 24 or under, the vast majority of the Arabs who "were brought there" were not in fact brought there but were born there. Are they advocating a policy of only expelling middle aged and old people? I'd imagine not. If they are advocating a policy of expelling all Arabs who "were brought there" and their descendents what would they do about those who married into other Arab families who were already living there, and had children? Will they look at their ancestory to decide how much of each individual was "brought there"? Do you imagine in a situation where people are being expelled that Arabs who weren't "brought there" will stand aside and do nothing?

Salih Muslim at least is clear:

Salih Muslim

if it continues the same way, there will be war between Kurds and Arabs.

kurremkarmerruk

But as a general note: However as it might be tempting to grasp the "fundamental ideas" behind a social movement or a formation on the basis of some of its member's speeches or some of its conjectural declarations, It is generally better to judge and evaluate them in the context of their emergence and in the light of their programme.

So when they openly advocate ethnic cleansing we shouldn't believe them?

If we look at the emergence of the PKK, we see an organisation with a terrible record with minorities. They do, however, appear to have made some change, and now seem to be trying to position themselves as the representative of the Kurds, and the defenders of all the minorities of Kurdistan. The Arabs, and in their respective areas Turks, and Persians, don't fit into this, and the PKK can not take it upon itself to be their defender. The only way to appeal to Arab (and Turkish and Persian) workers is to do so on a class basis, which is something that the PKK doesn't do as it is, at essence, a nationalist party.

Devrim

kurekmurek

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on August 31, 2014

I am sorry Devrim but you are just making it up. If I reply you on basis of points:

1) About migrated Arabs issue, you are right that they were imported there for at least 40 years now. however The old evils done to Kurds by the old regime is one of the main arguments of the Kurds, right? It is definitely part of the reality and the ethnic problems that are in effect there now. I unfortunately do not wish to make up arguments (like I guess you do) like the following: 1) who can guess the Kurds came there from? 2)So every ethnicity is imagination and are superficial etc... Instead I would argue that their "being Kurds" were part of their exploitation and oppression by the old regime, which they are now fighting not alongside to regime or Islamic opposition but for a Democratic Federate Syria. (and I think their current position should be considered to be very very important for anyone who really wishes to think about the politics of region)

2) As a second point I really can not understand what do you mean by saying that "Salih Muslim at least is clear:" (on ethnic cleansing) and quote him saying "if it continues the same way, there will be war between Kurds and Arabs". This is just taking a comment out of context and than just charging with rage aganist someone which you clearly think pretty much "evil" I guess. If you follow his comments on Syria first you will see there is quite a lot of his comments saying that they want to live in peace with all arabs: http://kurdistantribune.com/2013/syrias-kurds-seek-autonomy-peace-arabs-salih-muslim/
However starting from this year (possibly due to the circumstances) they changed their policy and rhetoric about these mixed regions. And it is one such interviews Salih Muslim warns that if the Arabs resist aganist them and join the ranks of the government (and it appears to be so in the time of interview) there might be a war. However your argument is beyond that: You claim they want ethnic cleasing. No they do not. Here are two reports that show they even elect Arab (or other minority groups to the authority positions in accordiance with their proposal of local democracies)
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/syrian-kurds-appoint-arab-governor-hasakah-bid-international-support-1313083527
http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=41754#.VAMpZPmSwb0
(These are pretty negative report websites on Kurds, I quote them to show that it is so obvious and factual that they do not attempt to mass killings, ethnic cleansing etc... If they have some kind of secrect agenda maybe some of us believe in there is nothing I restate "nothing" that can factually support that)

3) I wish to emphasize my point again Devrim you should not deduce "core ideas of a movement" from a speech given in an interview. It is just wrong. I challenge you to find something that somehow proves The Kurds engaged in a some form of actual ethnical cleasing in Arab and kurdis mixed places. I think this sort of agressive speech is given to send a message to govenrment and its possible allies to not to fight aganist Kurds. However in what way this is an actual occurence now, Did Kurds follow this policy? What sot of policies they implementd they take? We are here discussing a social movement of thousands by not any actual policy or anything but by a word given in an interview six months ago (and not another interview which he says we want peace) I think I place my arguments in a more historical comprehensive way then your (in which you state one interview and somehow find "ethnic cleasing in it, by means my mind is incapable of)

4) vYou said: "we look at the emergence of the PKK, we see an organisation with a terrible record with minorities. ???" According to what? Yeah maybe if you compare it to a very high class relax super advanced European country it might seem a bit dull in terms of human rights records. But from when on revolutionaries make this kind of empty abstract judgement. Of course there definitely are a lot of hard issues in PKK possibly, but I can give you very important examples that they are pretty good in terms of coming to a recognition of the diversity in the Anatolia. Probpably the most important one is being that Ocalan himself and PKK recognize there were an Armenian genocide in 1915 and Kurd have the part of the responsiblity themselves. Moreover in the last elections they had an (kind of its complicated dont ask to me I do not know much about ethnicities) sort of Arabic pm elected. Or in the last presidental elections they get the votes from Dersim (Tunceli) which is the town of Zazas, who are Alevi Kurds (which PKK was kind of wishing to assimilate them into a general Kurdish Identity) So it is not just hearts and rainbows on the side of PKK, but come on PKK is most possibly the only some sort of ethnically diverse and pluralist social movement in Turkey. (If we discuss this issue on the basis of actual human bodies on the move, not some abstract ideas of opennes or similar stuff)

5) I think what you said about class basis is (I am really sorry) meaningless. Not of course because class is important but becasue you take class as some form of identity and essence inscribed into human consciosuness and waits to be freed by some sort of vanguard organisation. I do not think so, and I am sure this definition of class is destined to shutter in the region. But I guess there is really no point in discussing this as you seem to be made up your mind about this issue (considering how bold you can write when prescribing a solution to "ignorant" kurds to solve the all the ethnical tensions in the region)

p.s By the way is there a way to message to someone in private in libcom?

Mark.

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on August 31, 2014

By the way is there a way to message to someone in private in libcom?

Yes, just click on 'messages' at the top of the page.

zaher

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by zaher on August 31, 2014

Hi Steven, thanks for your comment. Not sure you are awre of the changes that happen in the structure of PKK as it has been changed in many aspects. It is rejecting : nationalism , Kudish state., unifying all the parts of kurdistan. , No any more believe in army struggles, at least there is a tendency among some of the PKK leader and many people in the bottom of the party of anti-authoritarian and Anti-state and also it tries to convert from a political party revolutionary to a social revolution. Certainly you cannot call PKK a terrorist party. I thinks caling it a terrorist party is unfair. But I must say that any army struggle sometimes involves in terrorist act, but in term of PKK we all know the real terrorist is the Turkish State or government who has created an atmosphere that pushing group or political parties to do the same.
There is no many factories there and whole the oilfields have been shut down or unworkable. After a lot of effort by Tev-Dom and PYD managed to use a few of them. The farms: most of them have been used by peasants and do not have to pay anything to the owners of the land.
Obviously the country and the people are in war, they do not live in a peaceful time or period and also the sanction from everywhere and on any things strangled the people, what you expect in this circumstance? Thanks

zaher

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by zaher on August 31, 2014

Hi Devrim, I assure you I have no connection with PKK at all and never I had. More than that I am against any political parties and any arm struggles . What you read in my report was all true and I could not undermined them and I am responsible for every words I have written. It is pity that you accused me for something without showing any evidence.
Regards ethnic cleansing Arab, as I explained in my report the policy of green belt had been used since 60s against Kurdish there, therefore , so many Arab been brought and settled there as they were the owners and Kurdish were the renters and 3rd class. When I was there I spoke to many Arab and found out that they had no complaining against the Tev-Dom and DSM. The Arab still there and I believe there is no ethnic cleansing of Arab neither now nor later. Best wishes. Zaher

zaher

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by zaher on August 31, 2014

Hi Kalas Batalo, I hope so but whoever wants to do that he/she needs to go there and see the situation, not reading a few articles or seeing some people here an there whether they are against or in the favour of what happened there.
The last part of my report under the tittle of " fears and expectation" if you read it properly I have clarified many points and showed my fear about the future of this expe tenement. All the best. Zaher

zaher

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by zaher on August 31, 2014

Thanks Caiman del Barro for your comment, however I disagree with your comments. I am not looking at any things in an ideological way. I am not in a favour of any states under any names and PYD and DSA do not believe in any nationalist or religious state at all , you can read their Social Contract clearly they reject this firmly. My report only representing the present. I could not talk about the future of that movement, Tev-Dom . As I mentioned in " fear s and expectation" part there will be a power struggles between Tev-Dom and DSA in the nearest future. Whatever happens in the future does not justify that the anarchist do not support a movement like that at the present while it has not build a state. And also do not forget that this movement did not take the Arab Spring direction, and in addition to that where are we, anarchist , in Europe now apart from fighting the police, breaking the banks window and many other things which do not serve our purpose? . As for Ocallan, not sure you know much about the changes happened in his idea and thought. Regarding women, I may agree with you that the genuine equality never happens as long as this system exit, although I personally turndown down the phrase of " equality between women and man or equality of women and man" because even men in this society are no equal of each other and have no much freedom, lost their dignity so how can I call or clam the equality between man and women?!! However, I mentioned the equality between women and man inside both Tev-Dom and DSA and also In YPG & YPJ ( Defence Units of People and Defence Units of Women". While that equality in Britain political party like Labour not exist. I do not know you heard of Harriet Harman who recently complained against Gordon Brown and also you hear from time to time that the females military or Police have been abused sexually by their colleagues, their superiors. Best wishes

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on September 1, 2014

Hi Zaher, thanks for coming on here to defend your ideas.

zaher

I am not looking at any things in an ideological way. I am not in a favour of any states under any names

Soooo anti-statism isn't an ideology?

I think it's not very wise to claim that you - and ONLY you - are able to break free from the shackles of ideology. This clearly isn't true: your every action (writing this article, visiting Kurdistan, involvement with an 'activist community' in north London) is motivated by a body of ideas, which aren't just spontaneous, realtime responses to what happens to unfold before your eyes, but rather a combination of your life experiences, your reading, your conversations with other people, etc, etc. I think it's a rather facile tendency of 'radicals' in the 21st century, in keeping with the post-Berlin Wall 'consensus', to claim that they are beyond 'ideology' (employed in a pejorative sense), as a means of asserting their independence of thought. Bear in mind that the right wing political establishment, especially in the UK, loves this trope: watch how the government will smear workers as 'Trotskyites' or 'ideologists' next time there's a strike. Of course, there are few things more ideological than the consistent attack on living and working conditions in the name of the profit imperative, and the response to it (tame strikes, demonstrations, e-petitions, etc) is actually often far more confused and sporadic than the organised, strategic ideological manoeuvres of the elite in any given place. However, to misappropriate The Usual Suspects, "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was in convincing the world he doesn't exist" ie those who deny the presence of ideology are often the most ideologically motivated.

PYD and DSA do not believe in any nationalist or religious state at all , you can read their Social Contract clearly they reject this firmly.

OK thanks, but what do they mean by a 'state'? And bearing in mind the relationship between state and capital, what efforts have they made to break down the profit motive in their region? Anarchism is more than statelessness after all, otherwise we'd all be celebrating Somalia.

Whatever happens in the future does not justify that the anarchist do not support a movement like that at the present while it has not build a state.

What support do you think UK anarchists can offer to this movement, beyond trying to destroy their own state? (lol)

where are we, anarchist , in Europe now apart from fighting the police, breaking the banks window and many other things which do not serve our purpose?

Yes, quite, but I think you'd do well to stick around here and observe the activities of some organisations who do much more than break windows and fight police. And anyway, this isn't really much of an argument: the anarchist scene is an embarrassing load of shite precisely because of the lack of self-criticism, reflection and analysis in favour of, say, spectacular street battles with the police, violence fetishism and blind eulogy of distant armed struggles.

zaher

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by zaher on September 1, 2014

Hi Mark, thanks for your comment. Your comment actually should be answered by KAF, however, I should still say a couple of things. 1- my report is about Syrian Kurdistn, especially about the Tev-Dom not PKK although PKK and PYD are behind this expernement and very supportive. However, many, many people and orginasation participate and contributeed in both Tev-Dom and DSA are neither PKK nor PYD. In addition, I also spoke to many individuals they told me they do not belong to any of theses political parties and even they are against the state and the authority. Whatever today we see in the ground in Syrian Kurdistan is 100% different from PKK principles and ideas of 8 to 10 years ago. I said that PKK & PYD behind this event and supportive, in the same time I know both parties as I stated in my report are hierarchical organisations and this is a big test or exam for PKK to accept what happened there and go by what Ocallan says for a while about the state, or leave it or controle it. In the case of controlling it, I do not think it will be easy job fo them. 2- there has been a long period between both interviews that done by KAF and now .The interviews back to 2010 and 2012. Things since have been changed . Neither the PKK is the same intern of some of their policies nor the Syrian Kurdistan is the same as it was in 2010 and 2012. Indeed even there was some changes in the World and the region specially since. Althoug it is for KAF to answer you but I know KAF does see the things in move, analyses the events, parties, movements according to their progresses and developments. Best wishes. Zaher

zaher

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by zaher on September 1, 2014

Hi Joseph, I really surprised that you accused me just because I said true in my report. I consider my report is a couple of parts first part I am just telling people what happened there no more no less. 2nd part which is the fears and expectation is my views and opinions. If anybody reading it carefully I am sure he/she knows that my analysing is very realistic and did not praised any organisation or individuals, except a couple of lines in which I said Ocallan deserves credit for that.
I urge you to read this part again especially the "structure of PKK and PYD.
One more things just to assure you I have never known Ocallan had a corespondent with Bookchin until I read the recent article by R Taylor in Rora Magazine. Best wishes

Mark.

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on September 1, 2014

zaher - thanks for the reply. I take it from the intro to the article that you're involved in KAF, but in any case my question was aimed generally - at you or anyone else who felt like answering.

Devrim

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Devrim on September 1, 2014

kurremkarmerruk

I am sorry Devrim but you are just making it up.

I don't know what you think I am making up. The main body of contention seems to be my point that the PKK are advocating ethnic cleansing.

kurremkarmerruk

However in what way this is an actual occurence now, Did Kurds follow this policy? What sot of policies they implementd they take?

I didn't say they were implementing these policies. I said they were advocating them. There is a difference.

Then you link to reports, which you say show their policy to the Arabs. Let's quote from one of them:

Salih Muslim

There are three sorts of Arabs among us: there are those with whom we have always lived and who we have fought alongside. We defend the brotherhood between these peoples. There are those who do not belong, Arabs who came from outside, other countries or the region, the jihadists who have burned our homes, and decapitated Kurds. Finally, there are the Arabs who were moved to Kurdistan by force by [former Syrian President] Hafez al-Assad ... to Arabize the region. They are victims ... and we advocate a peaceful solution for these populations. Those who can return to their hometowns should do so and the others can live in peace with the Kurds (AFP December 2).

So what he is saying is that those Arabs who moved there in 1973 should return to their hometowns. As I said, the vast majority of those Arabs who live there now were born there. For this Salih Muslim advocates sending them back to their 'hometowns'. Yes, he admits they are victims, and yes, he advocates a 'peaceful solution', but the position is clear; Arabs must 'go home'.

Yes, I think that this is advocating ethnic cleansing.

kurremkarmerruk

I think what you said about class basis is (I am really sorry) meaningless. Not of course because class is important but becasue you take class as some form of identity and essence inscribed into human consciosuness and waits to be freed by some sort of vanguard organisation.

I don't think that the idea of class is meaningless. I'd imagine that most people who post here don't either. It is after all a communist website. It is not a sort of "identity and essence" though. It is an analysis of society based on economic conditions.

Now as we all know the condition of Kurdish people in Turkey (and also in other countries) has been terrible for decades. The question is how to change this. You seem to believe that this can be done through setting up some sort of Kurdish state (even if we don't call it a state). I think that it can be done through workers of all backgrounds uniting as a class against bosses of all backgrounds. To me, the TEKEL strike, and the strike wave around it in 2010, is an example of how this sort of class unity can be built, strikes started by Kurdish workers in defence of common class interests. For you it seems to be about advocating a 'peaceful solution' to send Arabs home.

Devrim

Devrim

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Devrim on September 1, 2014

zaher

Hi Devrim, I assure you I have no connection with PKK at all and never I had. More than that I am against any political parties and any arm struggles . What you read in my report was all true and I could not undermined them and I am responsible for every words I have written. It is pity that you accused me for something without showing any evidence.

I want to apologise, Zahar. There has been a lot of pro-PKK propaganda flying around in various media recently, and to be honest, having had more than enough of it, I only skimmed through your report. I have now read it thoroughly, and I certainly don't want to accuse you of lying in any way. I believe that this is a true report of what you saw.

Here's the thing though. In the past couple of weeks I have talked to a lot of people who have been over their recently. [/quote]I haven't been in Syria myself since before the whole Kurdish movement there, and I have listened intently to what people had to say.

I have heard people say things much more pro_PKK than you piece above, and I have heard people saying that all of the 'democratic governance' is in fact run by the PKK military by dictate.

Are some of these people lying? No, I'd say not. I'd say their reports are coloured by lots of things ranging from what they what to believe (either pro or anti), to how much of the local language they understood (very little for many urban Turkish Kurds who have no Arabic, and virtually no Kurdish beyond polite greetings). So you hear many different things. Which is true?

For me, I don't believe that the PKK follows any sort of class policy, or is a class movement in any way. I think that ultimately it's a nationalist movement, and I think that the quotes from Muslim above show this clearly. I don't think that they have anything to offer the working class, or the peasantry, in the region but more involvement in nationalist and sectarian wars, whether that be their intention or not. You seem to disagree.

zaher

Regards ethnic cleansing Arab, as I explained in my report the policy of green belt had been used since 60s against Kurdish there, therefore , so many Arab been brought and settled there as they were the owners and Kurdish were the renters and 3rd class. When I was there I spoke to many Arab and found out that they had no complaining against the Tev-Dom and DSM. The Arab still there and I believe there is no ethnic cleansing of Arab neither now nor later.

I don't believe that a policy of ethnic cleansing has been enacted against Arabs. I believe that they have advocated one. I can't imagine they would even try to impose it before the war in Syria ends. When it end who knows what will happen. If they come out of it all with a decisive victory, I believe they would try do 'de-Arabise' the area. Personally I don't think that is what will happen. I believe that Assad will ultimately win the war, and that the PKK will try to make some sort of deal with him, remembering that the whole situation now is the result of some sort of deal with him. Could this involve de-Arabafication of some areas? It depends on the balance of power at the time. The PKK is certainly clearly advocating it. Will it involve any class based solution or anything to do with socialism? Certainly not.

Devrim

Joseph Kay

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on September 1, 2014

Hi zaher, I didn't mean to accuse you of anything. Like Devrim I probably read this through the lens of other stuff, like that Roar mag piece. I don't know much about the region at all, and recent information seems at odds with what I do know. So I appreciate the information, and I'm just thinking out loud about how it fits together.

kurekmurek

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on September 1, 2014

No you are really making it up Devrim, even the place you quote from the interview and make it bold, does not mean in any way Salih Muslim argues for ethnic cleansing he says "“They are victims… and we advocate a peaceful solution for these populations: those who can return to their hometowns should do so and the others can live in peace with the Kurds.” He spesifically says that those who has not other hometown can live in peace with Kurds. How can you use a very heavy word like "ethnic cleansing" to signify such a comment? (And your idea Kurds advocate but do not initiate ethnic cleansing is oblivious to me, what does it even mean?)

Unfortunately you reply in a very selective manner, you do not reply my questions like 1) how can you deduce policies of a movement from an interview? 2)How do you explain that in the places where Arab populations are majority, Kurds let the Arabs to take he authority positions (while advocating for cleansing)? You seem to not recheck any of your previously acquired knowledge in a conversation.

About the class I know the position of Libcom on class and I certainly do not think class is unimportant. however This does not mean that i must be OK with meaningless rhetorical and cheap class analysis (and no one should either) Saying something is not an identity or essence and just using it in a ahistorical and totally arbitrary way to solve each and every conflict is not OK in my book.

However as you know the amount of articles published in Turkish are much more numerous on this issue. For example this one in which he reply the claim that he wishes a Kurdis-Arab war (asked with a direct reference to his comments we are dicussing)
http://www.sendika.org/2013/11/arap-halkina-kurucu-davet-salih-muslim-roportaji-m-ali-celebi-ozgur-gundem/
I will not translate it all but he explicitly says this: "I am understood wrongly", "our whole endevaour is to prevent Arab-Kurdish war". "Q: About Rojava Identity? A: A solution must be found with the local orgnaizations. There are Arabs, Kurds,Asuris Suryanis. all of these will come together and decide on something hopefully" "Q: 3 people was killed by Turkey on the border? A: It is so bad, two of them were Arabs. they all went there to work. It is a normal passing. Its an everyday passing. States should not do that." "We act in Syria in general, we act together with some arab groups."

It was a waste of time I guess, as Devrim you could find millions of such articles and interviews if you just wished to look at them in Turkish where Kurdish leaders give such messages of peace, solidarity and democracy. I guess it just comes to a point that you do not care, for example you cared about TEKEL (as I also did) as it was class action. Despite how insignificant it was in terms of its effects on Turkish politics or its lack any continuity or even a positive result (except some kind of symbolic idea remembered by us). (were you there in the second call for to rebuilt the tents after the first one's were removed? There was nothing, workers did not come, nothing didn't happened, not even a small crash, it was pathetic) For example you could easily also mention Gezi resistance but it was not a real class movement I guess so you neglected it. It was kind of bigger in scope. And you feel OK for yourself as a "class revolutionary" having really small knowledge of Rojava (I mean your lack of interest in Turkish interviews and articles) or for example you can restate the state propaganda like PKK is monstrous against minorities without feeling any contempt.

Nope this is not my kind of class politics or internationalism, it smells a lot of like a latent nationalism. Anyway spent too much time on this and I do not wish to make the attention go away from the contents of the article itself.

zaher

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by zaher on September 2, 2014

Just a small comment: I do not know how Muslim made this comment because this is no intention to very majority of the people among DSA and Tev-Dom at all. While I was there I spoke to many of them, nobody said any thing like that. The best things , in my opinion, emerged in that experiment was these people practically proved they work on the ground exactly opposit of what Muslim said. So many Arabs and Christians have taken a part in the Tev-Dom and DSA. For your information Akram , sorry I forgot the surname, is one of the co-head of exactive committee is Arab . And also I saw Arab and Christians were armed in the YPG and YPJ protection Untis. In addition to this, when we were in Seri-Kani we asked people in Tev-Dom what do they do with those people they were in a position with Assad's regime and harmed people? In reply, they said , the top people of them have already left there and the others who are still there, they have been forgiven as their war is with the system, not the individual. But they have added to their reply and said: if anybody in the region wants to take any of those people they supported Assad at the time and committed crime, they ( Tev-Dom &DSA) can not stope them and interven, they leave the case to Court's decision. Hope I have clarified something for you. Best wishes.

syrian anarchist

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syrian anarchist on September 4, 2014

unfortunately brothers , PKK is a centralized authoritarian organization ... How much I wish that Kurds will live finally as free and equals , no bureaucracy , no exploitation , without masters .. I wish this was the case .. I personally don't believe it , but if expelling Arabs from Kurdish areas will help Kurdish peasants and workers achieve their liberty and equality , I will support such action without hesitation ... I strongly don't advice Kurdish oppressed to build a a state to replace the old central one ; they will just repeat the mistake of Arab oppressed decades ago when Nationalist bourgeois leaders convinced them that all their suffering was because they were governed by "foreigners" . Kurds will have their new Assad , or Mubarak , a Kurdish one this time ; just to rebel against in future , as their Arab brothers are doing now .. I know how Kurdish oppressed feel enthusiastic about a Kurdish "state" , after all their suffering and oppression ; but you will only create the monster you have to kill later .. Maybe it is better to gather our forces to smash all the states and governments in the area , and build a real federation of free communes

zaher

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by zaher on September 4, 2014

Hi Caiman del barrio. I try to answer your comments briefly.
Of course anti-state is not ideology. I believe I have defined the meaning of Idology and the Idologiest in my repot , I therefore, do not have to repeat myself. You can get your answer from reading it again, if you have a time.
* in fact they do not believe the nationalist or religion state. They do not work on intensifying, simbolazing, specialising, glorifying ...a nationalist or religion state they believe in power sharing with the rest of ethnic minorities. This is a good tactic and good strategy avoiding the clash between them. Do not forget what I said in my report is only reflecting that particulate time or period. Things can be changed either way. In the next election of DSA we will see the more power struggle between DSA & Tev-Dom. For me the sole and mind in that experiment is Tev-Dom not the DSA because the DSA can not remain under control or influence of Tev-Dom as it is now. The power can be changed either way.

* the anarchists in here or Europe can help very much . Like, through the publicity , visiting there, donations, medicine campaigns , many more they can do. I do not hide my feeling about the attitude of anarchists in Euroup to say that they do not appreciate or consider seriously what happen in Middle East or Africa. I am sure what happen in Syrian Kurdistan, if this was in Euroup or South America now thousand and thousands from Euroup were there plus launching different campaigns to support them. The reason for that, I believe most of the anarchists came from Marksist and Leninest background. They still fall under this Idology that believe no way something good comes out from a back world country or places. They still believe in the myth of the stages that human being has gone throug from slavery stage, Feuedalism, capitalism and then we can build a socialism/anarchism society. So while we in the Middle East or Africa still have not entered the capitalism so it is impossible for us to even talk about the true things forget about that if we can say : yes there was that stages in history but that does not mean we cannot establish a socialism society althoug it won't be very advance. For this can be possible while the main point from the slavery to present has not changed since which the society that in any history stage still devided between exploiter and exploited , and there was domination, there was authority ....so that there was a possibility to have the ground of building a society free of class, money, bosses..

* I do not see any anarchist movement here , if there is, extremely week. There is no doubt there are many individuals , many activists among the anarchists but they are very tiny minority and who have the commitment for what they believe. Unfortunately , the majority of them they taken the anarchists principles that against organising and organisation for granted. However, they do not want to distinguish between a hierechal and non-hiererachal organisation. And also taken advantage of that " people themselves know better than the others and also the principle of freedom" our comrades using these to avoid discussing the things or getting the openion of others. In term of having a freedom ,This also can be used against the commitment, against self organising....so on. Best wishes

Salvoechea

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Salvoechea on September 5, 2014

Thanks Zaher for your article and telling us your experience.

Seriously, guys, I fell euro-anarchism has a problem of empathy/solidarity towards the people who are struggling on a daily base for survival. Not only as individuals but also as a people. I went to a couple of conferences that were given by two kurdish women in Spain. They felt our arrogance towards them for not being exactly anarchists.

They're putting in practice the biggest revolutionary experiment in the world (with zapatistas, chavista socialists communes or maoist naxalites). Yes, most come from a marxist background, however they all are reinventing their society everyday, and they're dying for it. There are some spanish comrades heading to kurdistan to watch this experiment with their own eyes. [Specially the basque left nationalist movement have people with them] What we offer is simple, solidarity. No matter it does not match to a 100% anarchist movement. If there is a chance of working with some brave people, who are trying to make a real (not virtual) revolution, I think it's worth it. We have many things to learn from them.

Kurdish guerrillas are one of the rare guerrillas that let to be anarchists with them. "Anarchist in an army? following orders? nah". With this attitude we will never get shit done. If we try to create a revolutionary movement in Europe, we need many people formed in weapons. Euro-nazis are going to every fucking war conflict in the world to get military skills. Look at them in Novorossiya.

Anyway. I feel we are talking many times as privileged, like giving lessons to other 'poor' people who have not seen the light yet and have not become anarchist. People trusts in anarchist if we are trustable, solidarian, humble, hard-workers, open-minded... that's propaganda by the deed. We are not stupid, and we know the obvious jerarchical structure inside the kurdish liberation movement. However, there's a real opportunity of converging with that movement in the future. The same opportunity that some latinamerican comrades saw in 1992 when they started to work with the indigenous movements, and nowadays some of them clearly reject the State (any state). Are we going to tell mapuche to piss off for they not being anti-authoritarian enough? That's my point. Respect, solidarity and common work with oppressed people.

klas batalo

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on September 5, 2014

or maybe they are just marxists...

Salvoechea

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Salvoechea on September 6, 2014

marxists that could evolve to libertarian positions

bastarx

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bastarx on September 6, 2014

Salvoechea

Kurdish guerrillas are one of the rare guerrillas that let to be anarchists with them. "Anarchist in an army? following orders? nah". With this attitude we will never get shit done. If we try to create a revolutionary movement in Europe, we need many people formed in weapons. Euro-nazis are going to every fucking war conflict in the world to get military skills. Look at them in Novorossiya.

I'm pretty sure you could be an anarchist in whatever fucking armed gang you wanted as long as you kept your mouth shut and followed orders. Doesn't mean you'd be achieving anything for the revolution though. If I wanted military training I'd rather join the well equipped and professional Australian Army than some band of guerrillas.

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on September 6, 2014

Salvoechea

Thanks Zaher for your article and telling us your experience.

Seriously, guys, I fell euro-anarchism has a problem of empathy/solidarity towards the people who are struggling on a daily base for survival. Not only as individuals but also as a people. I went to a couple of conferences that were given by two kurdish women in Spain. They felt our arrogance towards them for not being exactly anarchists.

They're putting in practice the biggest revolutionary experiment in the world (with zapatistas, chavista socialists communes or maoist naxalites).

Eh??

If anything I think it's more patronising imply - as you do here - that people in developing countries can only create imperfect shades of capitalism. I'm reserving judgment on the case here of Kurdistan, but I find it bizarre that people still insist to this day that there is revolutionary content in Venezuela (the so called 'comunas' - you realise that France also uses the word 'commune' as a regional jurisdiction right? Should we start talking about 'mon commandant Hollande'?) .

I'm less of an expert on the Naxalites but you'd do well to consider events in Nepal alongside them: http://libcom.org/tags/nepal

Serge Forward

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on September 6, 2014

Indeed. I'm keeping an open mind on the current trajectory of the PKK and associated elements. But plugging Chavismo as worthy of our support or some Marxist-Leninist outfit does no favours whatsoever. I really couldn't count the number of leftist groups we supposedly should have supported over the years, from the MPLA and the Sandinistas, to Shining Path, the IRA and Mujahadeen Khalk. It's all bollocks.

Gepetto

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gepetto on September 7, 2014

Salvoechea, the problem is not the "Marxist" background but nationalism.

Entdinglichung

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Entdinglichung on September 7, 2014

Serge Forward

Mujahadeen Khalk

before the mid-80ies, their main supporters in the west were Autonomists and Spontaneists who liked their non-marxists "homegrown" political theory and style, Autonomie dedicated a whole special issue to them

Gepetto

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gepetto on September 7, 2014

Was there critical support for Jonestown?

Serge Forward

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on September 7, 2014

I had dealings with several Mujahadeen Khalk in the early 80s and generally got on okay with them. I also had dealings with a CPI-Komala bloke. Funnily enough, I got on better on a personal level with the islamo-lefties with shit politics, even though the CPI had dealings with left comms. Funny business politics, innit.

Salvoechea

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Salvoechea on September 8, 2014

Well, As for the socialist chavista communes, there are some articles in spanish. You should read them. People who have been there say it is a real grassroot movement. Obviously Venezuela is a corrupt bureaucratic country. However, the grassroot chavistas are quite revolutionary. Those people are building socialist structures from below. One of them is the Communes. Communes are not simple municipalities like those in France. There are also some countries in Latin America that keep the name of Communes to municipalities (a state institution). But this movement points that the Commune should be the base for a "communal state", based in social movements. It's complicated to explain as it is now being developed. There are 700 communes with many thousands of people living there. Most are rural communes. They aim to be the substitute of the (bourgeois) municipality. Now president Maduro have realised that this is the kind of base chavistas need. In case of a coup d'estat those communes will rise in arms.

I've heard the idea of this kind of socialist institution came from some anarchist that are working inside the chavista movement since its beginning in the 90's. I'm curious about the nature of this moment. They work in assemblies, they practise self-management (buy now government is funding them up to a point), they oppose to the bureaucracy of the ruling Party... but for them Hugo Chavez is a kind of god, and (chavista) socialism is unquestionable.

This is another social experiment taking place.

http://www.lahaine.org/mundo.php/tenemos-que-llegar-a-que
http://www.lahaine.org/index.php?p=73432

As for naxalite, I don't have a clue how they administrate the areas they control. I imagine it must be something like FARC in Colombia. An authoritarian power in the top with some autonomy to every village. Then, villages are disconnected between them so that they cannot challenge the central authority.

I read the articles of Nepal and I agree maoism is corrupt and self-destructive and will ruin every revolution they lead. But when I said this is a revolution taking place. I just meant this is just a revolutionary movement. Another example. I was not telling I support or that this movement is anarchist. The same goes for the Venezuelan communes. They are not anarchist. They are an experiment that it's worth to have a look in the same way many people did with the brazilian MST assentamentos in the 90's.

So, the point was in some areas in the Kurdistan, some people are developing a revolutionary administration. They are doing their revolution. And that revolution is not anarchist. However, it is a real example and in some measure we - europeans - can have a chance to study it and even having a slight influence on it (by collaborating with exiled kurds, by sending help, by going there to help, by establishing solidarity committees). They are quite open to us (up to a point).

Gepetto

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gepetto on September 8, 2014

zaher

So while we in the Middle East or Africa still have not entered the capitalism

What makes you think so?

Mark.

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on September 9, 2014

Channel 4 report on the PKK

http://www.channel4.com/news/pkk-kurdistan-workers-party-islamic-state-kurdish-spring

Also

http://www.channel4.com/news/pkk-kurdish-workers-party-islamic-state-syria-iraq-uk

mikail firtinaci

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on September 11, 2014

PKK recently found itself at the center of international politics because many state leaders in the west believe that it can be used as a solid leverage against ISIS. In fact, there is not many alliance options for countries like US or Turkey in the region. Obviously these countries can not attack ISIS themselves because -for different reasons- they can hardly convince their public for a bloody middle eastern war.

Iran can hardly be trusted for these states. Syrian opposition is too fragmented and tainted with islamist elements. What is left is only PKK. Only PKK has an experienced fighting force and popular support and it is very willing to do the dirty job of contractual warfare in Syria and Iraq. That is why PKK and its liberal/lefty supporters in Turkey and the West are trying to appeal to this sensational nostalgia for Spanish Civil War. In fact when they portray West Kurdestan almost as a liberated free communal region, they are very conscious of how this image is similar to Aragon during the civil war.

However, just as the republican government during the Spanish Civil War, PKK is also very willing to make any compromise to the islamist and oppressive Turkish government, or any other possible ally that it flirts with. During the initial days of Gezi revolt, HDPs (PKK's legal political wing in Turkey) leader S. Demirtas labelled the revolt as a "fascist-kemalist uprising". In fact there is now a more or less open breach in the party between the socialists who are having hard times accepting this conciliatory line and the PKK-HDP leadership.

The reality of the situation is, nation states in Middle East are rapidly dissolving and decomposing into small sectarian and oppressive fiefdoms. Just as it is happening in some parts of Africa, these fiefdoms are usually selling a single commodity (and usually this is a particular raw material like oil) to a single Western (or Eastern) power. In exchange they are receiving arms and political support. PKK is a candidate for power in Western Kurdistan and all the political advertisements about it (that PKK is a secular-anti-fascist democratic force) are only hiding the plain fact that the so-called "communal" Western Kurdistan is an economically isolated, socially deprived, depressed peasant region, which can not have any of hope of thriving under PKKs nationalist sectarian control. This is what PKK is hiding and it is critical that anarchists/left communists in Western Europe/US to criticize this organization as strongly as they condemn ISIS.

In Turkey even mild liberal critics of PKK are condemned as "turkish nationalist", and there is a strong atmosphere of "colonialist guilt" prevalent in the Turkish left. An internationalist criticism of PKK and its role in international politics as an aspiring pawn of imperialism is strongly needed.

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on September 11, 2014

Edit

Serge Forward

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on September 11, 2014

Keep up at the back, Caiman. See Mark's recent post above.

jef costello

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on September 13, 2014

Thanks for writing Zaher, there's a lot of information here that I simply hadn't seen. That's one reason why people are not interested, they simply don't know about things. Reading your work I was struck by how idyllic and positive evrything was and to be honest it doesn't ring true.
Aside from the problems with Ocalan, PKK and all the other things that have been mentioned the other problem is that when the war ends so will this area. I find it hard to believe that after the massive destruction and death that Assad has been hapy to unleash to hang onto power he will just leave this province to the kurds. And if Assad loses then whoever defeats him will be looking at the kurds as collaborators or as dangerous radicals, after all whoever wins will have some kind of state backing.
This is a positive piece that cannot cover up, and actually mentions, quite a few of the major problems, as has been pointed out. I think the piece is a starting point and it would be good to find out more and help in some way.

Caiman del Barrio

9 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Caiman del Barrio on September 19, 2014

Loath as I am to link to the waffleburgers in the ICC, the accusations against Ocalan and other senior PKK members of repeated rape and sexual abuse of its female members deserve to be heard and maybe Zaher can respond to them:

Is there a reason to rejoice about 'the freedom of women' advocated by the PKK?

The PKK says that within the organization men and women are treated equally and that women adhere to the PKK on a voluntary basis. The question is to know whether this is a desirable principle, inherited from its ‘proletarian orientation', or a deceptive illusion.

Numerous accounts mention that many women members of the PKK were fleeing oppression by the family, especially the risk of forced marriage and honor killings in the traditional Kurdish territories and in Turkish society. But contrary to what our speaker from Fekar stated, these women were also victims of male violence in PKK camps and by none other than the great leader himself.

The source of such information is not the propagandists of the Turkish state but several founding members of the PKK itself who left the organization in disgust over the years. Mehmet Cahit Sener, one of the founders of the PKK who led an early and short-lived split called PKK – Vejin[10] wrote in 1991, a year before being killed on a joint operation of the Syrian intelligence and the PKK[11]: “Apo has forced dozens of our female comrades to immoral relations with him, defiled most and declared the ones who insisted on refusing to be people 'who haven't understood the party, who haven't understood us' and has heavily repressed them, and even order the murder of some claiming they are agents. Some of our female comrades who are in this situation are still under arrest and under torture, being forced to make confessions appropriate to the scenarios that they are agents (…) The relations between men and women within the party have turned into a harem in Apo's palace and many female comrades were treated as concubines by this individual.”[12]

Another founding leader of the PKK, Selim Curukkaya, who did actually manage to escape from Apo's grasp to Europe a few years later, wrote in his memoirs of countless incidents supporting Sener's general statements, further elaborating the repressive measures towards women in particular and in regards to the relations between men and women in general. According to Curukkaya's memoirs sexual relations were banned for the entire membership, and those caught were severely punished – tortured, imprisoned and even declared traitors in some cases which led to their executions – male and female alike. One striking example in Curukkaya's memoirs was the imprisonment of a couple of young guerrillas for no reason other than practicing ‘adultery of the eye’, in other words looking at each other. In contrast, the great leader of the PKK had the right to any women in the organization, and the rest of the leadership were rewarded if they proved obedient and useful[13]. Other founding leaders who have left since have admitted that these testimonies were indeed correct.

Not that Ocalan himself hasn't been as open as he could've been in his own speeches, texts, books, declarations and so on and so forth over the years. In a book written by him in 1992 titled Cozumleme, Talimat ve Perspektifler (Analyses, Orders and Perspectives), he stated: “These girls mentioned. I don't know, I have relations with thousands of them. I don't care how anyone understands it. If I've gotten close with some of them, how should this have been? (…) On these subjects, they leave aside all the real measurements and find someone and gossip, say 'this was attempted to be done to me here' or 'this was done to me there'! These shameless women both want to give too much and then develop such things. Some of the people mentioned. Good grace! They say 'we need it so, it would be very good' and then this gossip is developed (…) I'm saying it openly again. This is the sort of warrior I am. I love girls a lot, I value them a lot. I love all of them. I try to turn every girl into a lover, in an unbelievable level, to the point of passion. I try to shape them from their physique to their soul, to their thoughts. I see it in myself to fulfill this task. I define myself openly. If you find me dangerous, don't get close!” [14]

In a pamphlet he wrote more recently, Ocalan called Toplumsal Cinsiyetciligin Ozgurlestirilmesi (The Liberation of Social Sexism), he says: “In the ranks of the PKK, a true love is possible by a heroism proving itself with success. And what can we call the many female-male runaways? Frankly, we can call them the lapsed Kurdish identity proving itself (…) Besides myself and our martyred comrades have heroically been workers for the road to love. If those who supposedly fell like experiencing love haven't understood the value of such efforts, they are either blind, or evil, or scum or traitors. What else can be expected of us for love? You won't run to any successes in your revolutionary duties, and then you'll say you feel like having a relationship! It is clear that this is a shameless approach (…) Even birds make their nests in places untouched by foreigners. Can love build homes in lands and hearts occupied till the throat? Any force you'll take shelter in will do who knows what to the lovers. My experience has showed this: Living with a woman of the order isn't possible without betraying revolutionary duties.”[15]

The talk of freedom of women advocated by the PKK today is rather a cruel irony.

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201304/7373/internationalism-only-response-kurdish-issue#_ftn13

Glimmer

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Glimmer on October 3, 2014

The article reads,
"An interesting report by Zaher Baher of Haringey Solidarity Group and Kurdistan Anarchists Forum who spent two weeks in Syrian Kurdistan, looking at the experiences of self-government in the region against the background of the Syrian civil war and rise of Islamic State".
So it appears to be from a non PPK source and worth listening to. Even if only a proportion of this is correct (and I dont doubt what he says) what is happening in these areas is in stark contrast to the sectarian bloodbath which is the middle east and well worth supporting. Their will always be deficiancies in any movement and never perfection but this does appear to be a step in the right direction, nay an island of hope no less. The fact that it is supported by the Turkush Anarchist movement is also encouraging.
We need not to be too purist about this, the fight on the ground in Syria is a life and death struggle between progressive forces of which Tev Dom are a part. The choice in this istant on the ground is simple the genocidal war of ISIS or the progressive and secular aspirations of Tev Dom and the Kurds, we need not be splitting hairs at this crucial time.

durruti02

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by durruti02 on October 11, 2014

Great article by Zaher and bloody awful criticisms! Then Devrim admits s/he hadn't even read the bloody article and Joseph Kay admits he didn't read it fairly! What is it with you people? Something good is happening and the first thing you want to do is trash it!
This article is a bit better but still seems very out of date and failing to understand the project of the PKK/YPD http://tahriricn.wordpress.com/2014/04/07/syria-on-the-syrian-revolution-and-the-kurdish-issue-an-interview-with-syrian-kurdish-activist-and-journalist-shiar-nayo/
The real issue is not that people have to become PKK supporters but that we support a revolution that is ongoing in Kurdistan. And in that process acknowledge the progressive role of the PKK within that. And in the UK that we support that revolution with education [not misinformation as some have put on here] and support to those we can, whether it be Turkish or Kurdish or Syrian anarchists or YPD themselves. In London we can support the large refugee, from Turkish state violence, community.
P.s. the sex accusationare pretty low. I would not deny or accept what went on in the 1980s or even 1990s. But I know from personal experiance the very strong womens involvement in Kurdish politics in London, the constant propaganda about womens rights, politically and domestically and what is apparent in Kurdistan. Is it perfect? I doubt it! But then neither is the UK anarchist scene!
In fact it seems that the flaws in the PKK were what created the new situation "We do know that the PKK’s shortcomings in promoting real change in the attitude toward women pushed them to create their own organizations. In 1987, a group of women in the PKK created the Kurdistan Union of Patriotic Women and, later, the Kurdish Women’s Liberation Movement"
And Ocalan wrote "In Kadın ve Aile Sorunu (The Woman and Family Question), and Kürt Aşkı (Kurdish Love), two of the essays that he wrote, Öcalan called upon men to destroy the traditional conception of namus: “Women’s liberation is Kurdistan’s liberation; it is also men’s liberation.” The “honor,” Öcalan declared, now lay in fighting for the nation. In order to free women, Öcalan called upon men to kill the dominating patriarch within them and create the New Man. " http://womensvoicesnow.org/wvoiceprev/women_and_the_kurdish_movement_in_turkey_there_will_be_no_turning_back

Support the Kurdish Revolution!

kurekmurek

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 15, 2014

and also there is this video: http://vimeo.com/107639261 for those interested in Rojova and Kurdish women's struggle

klas batalo

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on October 15, 2014

it seems the woman from the video is very connected to these women fractions of the general PKK movement

http://www.kjb-online.org/hakkimizda/?lang=en

a lot of folks are seeing her (and them) as more internationalist and anti-state...

i'd like to know what others really think of that?

boomerang

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by boomerang on October 19, 2014

mikail firtinaci

This is what PKK is hiding and it is critical that anarchists/left communists in Western Europe/US to criticize this organization as strongly as they condemn ISIS.

WTF?

You and others bring up good reasons to be suspicious of PKK leadership, but condemn them as strongly as ISIS? Do you know what ISIS does to women? Compare that to the feminist current running through the PKK (not to say the patriarchy is obliterated there, but it's a world apart from ISIS on that). Similar comparisons could be made with ISIS's treatment of ethnic minorities and 'infidels'. PKK has also renounced its terrorist tactics for some time now.

I have criticisms of PKK (not anti-capitalist being main one), but I actually feel a bit sick to think that all this could just be dismissed or overlooked when weighing these two groups on the scales of judgment. I think of what life for women is like in Rojava now vs. what it would be like if ISIS took over. Or do these things not matter to you. (I assume they do, right?)

Serge Forward

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on October 19, 2014

Yes, much as many of us are highly sceptical about the PKK, Mikhail is seriously over-egging the pudding with the whole tweedle dum tweedle dee both as bad as t'other line. The reality is, PKK and ISIS are not in the same league of vileness by a long stretch. That doesn't mean we should cheerlead the PKK like some posters on here are doing but, come on Mikhail, let's keep it fucking real and try not to sound too much like a blinkered ideologue.

mikail firtinaci

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 19, 2014

Boomerand and Serge Forward;

You are just looking at a youtube video, see a bunch of crazy lunatics cutting heads. And you think that stalinists, who actually denounced socialism in favor of some "democratic confederalism" (a slogan without any political content) can't be as bed. I am not suggesting that you don't know middle east (I can't claim that I understand it myself!). But you clearly don't know the history of this organization.

So; yes, I am serious about PKK. And I am serious about how dangerous it is especially for Kurds. You have to read its history to understand that, to understand how many lives were destroyed by first Turkish Republic and then by PKK. PKK for its parts systematically murdered teachers, sometimes massacred whole Kurdish villages just because there were some, who worked as local militia for Turkey in those villages. It carried out numberless executions against internal and external critics.

Of course, the root of "evil" here is the Turkish State. But the worst thing Turkey did was to enable the emergence of PKK. And Turkish governments, had many good chances to root out the problem easily and peacefully, they had many political opportunities to reach a peaceful outcome. But no Turkish government took serious measures to (even an advantageous) reconciliation. Because, the problem is, Turkish state always benefited from the war. It always worked for their best to keep military strong. It always benefited the state sowing strong nationalist hatreds dividing turks and kurds. Just as those did benefit PKK.

And PKK today is essentially still a military organization that solely fights for its own existence. It still feeds on the trauma of millions of Kurds who suffered tremendously under the Turkish state and lost thousands lives. As long as Turkish proletariat do not attack the Turkish state, Kurds will continue their mistrust, and they will feel alone, and forced to defend PKK however inconsistent and impractical its political line is. Eventually PKKs strength is not in what it defends, but in against who it fights against... It was always like that. Many sincere, courageous people joined PKK because it fought against Turkey.

And the ISIS is no different in that sense; the Sunni Arabs are forced to hold on to ISIS (at least for the time being, I hope tactically and not by emotional attachment). And if this war persists and if the hostilities, pains and hatreds sink deep enough, you will face another organization (isis or whatever) that however irrational it may look, it will be defended to the end by ordinary Sunni Arabs in the region.

So, the only practicaly yard stick in evaluating the differences is this: which organizations benefit from wars and chaos and which do not; all the nationalist organizations are ultimately benefiting from the war, from the destruction of the proletariat, and from the destruction of proletarians only future, which is communist struggle through united class action. In that sense, yes without any hesitation I say they are all the same.

boomerang

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by boomerang on October 19, 2014

ZAHER BAHER - are you still there?

First, thank you for writing this article about what you witnessed in Rojava! :) These reports from direct witnesses are so important.

Can you tell us what is the People’s Assembly? You say this is what elected the Democratic Self Administration, but you don't explain what the People's Assembly is.

Also, to what extent is the decisions of the Democratic Self Administration controlled from below? Once the members of the DSA are elected, do they have ongoing meetings with local organizations of direct democracy to get a mandate from them? Or do they just make their decisions however they choose? And are they at least ‘instantly recallable’ (able to be voted out of the DSA and replaced in between elections)?

I'm excited by the direct democracy taking place at the level of the neighborhood, village, and district, but it sounds like when it goes higher than that, it becomes "representative democracy" (which is the way of "democratic" states – in other words, NOT real democracy).

My concern and anxiety about this is increased by the fact that the Social Contract (or constitution) of Rojava that the DSA created makes NO mention about direct democracy! The communes, assemblies, committees, House of the People, House of Women, etc., etc. -- not a word.

People in Tev-Dam say they decide, and the DSA just executes. Is this really true? I find that hard to believe, if they were able to write the Social Contract on their own, and without any mention of the direct democracy organizations that Tev-Dam believes are in control!

If DSA is not being controlled from below (by local direct democracy), then I don't see how it's different from a state, and the "Social Contract" it wrote shows that's what it intends to be! (While still claiming to reject the state!)

I'd like to hear your take on this, from someone who's been there.

(The situation is still developing, so I’m holding onto hope that people in Rojava will recognize the dangers of FAKE-democracy and change things so that higher levels of decision making and administration are always controlled from below.)

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 21, 2014

I mixed different messages into one here, so I EDIT IT OUT

mikail firtinaci

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on October 20, 2014

Well you must rejoice Kurremkarmerruk;

Now not only anarchists but Turkey, USA, and Barzani are fighting together with PKK!!! What a great alliance to save humanity.

boomerang

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by boomerang on October 20, 2014

Hi Kurremkarmerruk.

kurremkarmerruk

But this is a question? This is not an accusation or criticism.

Asking whether the DSA is controlled from below was a question... but right on the border of question and criticism, because Zaher never mentions that the DSA is controlled from below. If it was, he would probably have said so (as an anarchist, he'd see it as important to make that clear in his report). So I suspect the answer is that no, it's not controlled from below. However, I put it as a question, because I don't want to jump to turn suspicions into assumptions, without asking first.

kurremkarmerruk

(My answer is I don't know. however on your part you seem to confuse re-callable delegates with direct democracy.

You misunderstood me. I asked:

boomerang

Also, to what extent is the decisions of the Democratic Self Administration controlled from below? Once the members of the DSA are elected, do they have ongoing meetings with local organizations of direct democracy to get a mandate from them? Or do they just make their decisions however they choose?

This is where I'm talking about direct democracy (on a local level) being used to control delegates on higher scales (all Rojava, a canton, a city). And only then do I ask:
boomerang

And are they at least ‘instantly recallable’ (able to be voted out of the DSA and replaced in between elections)?

You're right, instantly recallable delegates on their own is not direct democracy, but it does give more control to people, that's why I said "at least"... to point out that I wouldn't think this in itself is enough, but that it's better than not being able to recall.

kurremkarmerruk

You are just opening a new discussion to criticize Kurdish movement now.

Is that not ok? I also have good things to say about it. Why not both?

kurremkarmerruk

However if you would wish to think about these issues in any real sense,

Ouch!!!

kurremkarmerruk

you would at least give credit to Kurdish movement

Haven't you noticed I have been giving credit? That I also have criticism doesn't cancel that.

kurremkarmerruk

So are you against representative democracy, if you are not how will you propose to solve it in a bigger level then neighborhoods?

Yes, I'm against "representative democracy" - and even reject the name, as it is neither representative nor democratic.

How do I propose to extend democracy to bigger levels? Well, it's not my proposal, it's anarchist theory, but here's a rundown:

Delegates elected to bigger levels continue to meet with the assembly or council on the next smaller level. That smaller level assemblies discuss and debates the issue that the delegates on the bigger level will be dealing with. They come to their own conclusions and opinions about it, and give a mandate to their delegate, a set of instructions to guide them when those delegates on the bigger level council meet. Then those delegates, when they make decisions, do so in a way that reflects the wishes and needs of the people they represent. Instant recall is also part of this, but only one part.

kurremkarmerruk

If everyone has (though limited and small) in its commune and through it on more general councils, this is not contradicted to direct democracy. This form is the only known possible way to implement direct democracy in a larger level.

Not sure what you mean here.

kurremkarmerruk

This is your new concern I guess. Anyway this was discussed. You are right it mentions nothing about it. You are wrong they did not wrote it by themselves.

Zaher says the DSA wrote the SOcial Contract of Rojava. I know in an earlier post you said it was the PYD and some other party that is allied with the ruling party in Iraqi Kurdistan. One of you is mistaken... I was trusting Zaher over you, since s/he has been there. Can you give a source where you got your information from?

kurremkarmerruk

Yeah I also I find it hard to believe, there must be more two sided relation than that. However do you have the same suspicions about Zapatistas? For example despite what they say do you think Zapatista's do not just listen to communes but actively manipulate them? If so why not?

If I remember correctly, Zapatistas use a process of direct democracy similar to what I describe above (in that power flows from the bottom up). This is very different from what I suspect is going on with the DSA.

kurremkarmerruk

boomerang

If DSA is not being controlled from below (by local direct democracy), then I don't see how it's different from a state, and the "Social Contract" it wrote shows that's what it intends to be! (While still claiming to reject the state!)

Old same argument about state: According to this logic there will always be state as long as something is controlled by someone. (so there is a political relation)

No... that's not my logic. My logic is whether the organizations that manage society are controlled "from above" by a small fraction of the population, or if they are controlled "from below".

kurremkarmerruk

because all your arguments above - so the standards you set for Kurds to meet- are totally political in nature, they do not mention any class content.

That's because it's already clear their revolution doesn't have a class content. (At least not yet, it could develop hopefully.)

Everything I've heard about it is only political (and cultural/social). I haven't heard anything about challenging class relations, which is a deficiency obviously.

But my respect for what they're doing has come from the practice of direct democracy. Learning now that it doesn't exist at higher levels, has been a surprise and disappointment to me. (Where as from the beginning I already knew there was no class content.)

kurremkarmerruk

You condmen their democracy as representative, autonomy as state. I would like to see if your ideas on human social organization can pass the political test you propose, I think you can not.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

kurremkarmerruk

And this is a sign of your again lack of political thinking -not theoratical I mind you.)

Why you gotta be so cold, yo?

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 21, 2014

AGAIN EDITED OUT

boomerang

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by boomerang on October 20, 2014

Apology accepted. You can edit yours out if you want, then I'll come back and edit mine out. (Send me a private message when you do so I know.)

p.s. If you're mixing up people's messages, maybe it's a sign you (and others) should take a break from this discussion. It seems to be going in circles and it might not be worth it's time anymore. I think everyone's stated their case by now, if they haven't changed by now then I doubt they will from more argument. People who are on the fence about it might change their mind, but when a thread gets too long they might just stop reading at all, and the only people who keep reading are those who are in the argument. Sometimes it helps your case if you know when to bow out and walk away.

AES

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by AES on October 20, 2014

kurremkarmerruk

Mikail:

Boomerand and Serge Forward;

You are just looking at a youtube video, see a bunch of crazy lunatics cutting heads. And you think that stalinists, who actually denounced socialism in favor of some "democratic confederalism" (a slogan without any political content)

You mean here, I guess theoratical content or political philosophical content and not "political content". Because "democratic confederalism" is accepted millions of people so and there is a so called " revolution" going on for its principles. Moreover Kurdish struggle is not just a political intitiative it is also a social existence, that people live, experince, have relations, denounce other forms of social relations etc... However for example ICC might have theoretical or philosophical content without having political power.

Also, to what extent is the decisions of the Democratic Self Administration controlled from below? Once the members of the DSA are elected, do they have ongoing meetings with local organizations of direct democracy to get a mandate from them? Or do they just make their decisions however they choose? And are they at least ‘instantly recallable’ (able to be voted out of the DSA and replaced in between elections)?

But this is a question? This is not an accusation or criticism.

(My answer is I don't know. however on your part you seem to confuse re-callable delegates with direct democracy. You are just opening a new discussion to criticize Kurdish movement now. For example if they could would it satisfy you? No. And if they could would this ensure there is direct democrcy? Again no. For example many old parties (ODP) or unions (GENCSEN) had this mechanism however it never worked in Turkey. There is not even one person who is recalled successfully to ensure the right of individuals over governing mechanism in Turkey. These machanisms generally only do limp servise for democracy. Such issues related to Democracy were always existed in Turkey. These are not problems of Kurdish struggle, they have roots in history, culture and society. However if you would wish to think about these issues in any real sense, you would at least give credit to Kurdish movement as they are the ones most serious and first to bring democracy to the heart of political movements (of course if you exclude anarchist small groups) in Turkish context.)

I'm excited by the direct democracy taking place at the level of the neighborhood, village, and district, but it sounds like when it goes higher than that, it becomes "representative democracy" (which is the way of "democratic" states – in other words, NOT real democracy).

So are you against representative democracy, if you are not how will you propose to solve it in a bigger level then neighborhoods? So real democracy only works in neighborhoods? Moreover you don't know any proof it is representative and not "real". If everyone has (though limited and small) in its commune and through it on more general councils, this is not contradicted to direct democracy. This form is the only known possible way to implement direct democracy in a larger level.

When have you become Bonanno? and started to oppose all kinds of institutions?

My concern and anxiety about this is increased by the fact that the Social Contract (or constitution) of Rojava that the DSA created makes NO mention about direct democracy! The communes, assemblies, committees, House of the People, House of Women, etc., etc. -- not a word.

This is your new concern I guess. Anyway this was discussed. You are right it mentions nothing about it. You are wrong they did not wrote it by themselves.

People in Tev-Dam say they decide, and the DSA just executes. Is this really true? I find that hard to believe, if they were able to write the Social Contract on their own, and without any mention of the direct democracy organizations that Tev-Dam believes are in control!

Yeah I also I find it hard to believe, there must be more two sided relation than that. However do you have the same suspicions about Zapatistas? For example despite what they say do you think Zapatista's do not just listen to communes but actively manipulate them? If so why not?

If DSA is not being controlled from below (by local direct democracy), then I don't see how it's different from a state, and the "Social Contract" it wrote shows that's what it intends to be! (While still claiming to reject the state!)

Old same argument about state: According to this logic there will always be state as long as something is controlled by someone. (so there is a political relation) So I must ask again are you against state or not? (And don't just give me real democracy, no classes, bullsh*t... [not that because it is bullsh*t] because all your arguments above - so the standards you set for Kurds to meet- are totally political in nature, they do not mention any class content. You condmen their democracy as representative, autonomy as state. I would like to see if your ideas on human social organization can pass the political test you propose, I think you can not. And this is a sign of your again lack of political thinking -not theoratical I mind you.)

So, the only practicaly yard stick in evaluating the differences is this: which organizations benefit from wars and chaos and which do not; all the nationalist organizations are ultimately benefiting from the war, from the destruction of the proletariat, and from the destruction of proletarians only future, which is communist struggle through united class action. In that sense, yes without any hesitation I say they are all the same.

You are about to declare your war on terror I guess. Maybe kurds are against your "democracy", huh?

I have quoted your comment in full here because I do not agree that it is ok for your comments here to be concealed for the reason you gave - that you were unclear who you were responding to (it doesn't matter who you addressing, when the approach you chose is to attack direct democracy). The unedited post here quoted also relates to a response I am working on which requires preparation time.

boomerang

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by boomerang on October 20, 2014

My view is arguments can make people lose their head, and we all make mistakes and say things we wish we could take back. In 'real life' when we say something we regret, it can at least fade from people's memory with time. In an internet forum, the comments we regret are there forever. I've certainly put my foot in my mouth and said things I regret many times, so I sympathize with her predicament.

AES

9 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by AES on October 20, 2014

I'm not sympathetic to recruiters for class collaborationist organisations

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 21, 2014

AES you are a really wonderful being :D

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 21, 2014

So maybe I should explain what I edited out (as it can be seen above now thanks to AES

Here is the story of why I edited out two of my comments. In the first one: I thought the comment I am replying back was mikail’s but it was actually started with Mikail then I scroll up/down a little bit I guess without notice and continue replying to boomerang’s. As I and Mikail had an argument of PKK, PYD (well everything actually) I thought boomerang’s honest questions as criticisms. This was of course wrong So I said stuff like “But this is a question? This is not an accusation or criticism.” And tried to reply it back as if Mikail was implying that answers all of these questions are negative (BecauseI know his answers. Thanks to our long discussion).Then I accuse him of changing theoretical positions or developing new sensibilities that he normally seems not to care when the topic is not PKK. Which was again wrong, as I was replying back to a totally different person without knowing. So these were his legitimate sensibilities and political position there was nothing incoherent about his position. In the second one I realized my mistake and apologized and asked for an edit out.

Anyway I am sorry again for this mistake

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 21, 2014

By the way, maybe I should share it here:

http://new-compass.net/articles/revolution-rojava

This is also a first hand account of Rojova and its autonomy experiment, although it is not stated as so explicitly. However he/she mentions it in the text. The writer mostly mentions political structures of decision making and social issues (especially the women's problems and their solutions).

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 21, 2014

This is also a first hand account of the justice system in Rojova:

http://new-compass.net/articles/consensus-key-new-justice-system-rojava

boomerang

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by boomerang on October 22, 2014

Hi Kurremkarmerruk. Because you edited out your reply to my post, I can't remember what you wrote in answer to this:

boomerang

Zaher says the DSA wrote the SOcial Contract of Rojava. I know in an earlier post you said it was the PYD and some other party that is allied with the ruling party in Iraqi Kurdistan. One of you is mistaken... I was trusting Zaher over you, since s/he has been there. Can you give a source where you got your information from?

When you get the time do you mind telling me again? (No rush.) Thanks!

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 22, 2014

I messaged my reply to you, if i do not remember wrongly. However I will post it here. Good night for now

boomerang

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by boomerang on October 22, 2014

Oh right, that's why I couldn't find it on this thread! LOL. I see it in my messages now, I'll post it here for everyone to see:

kurremkarmerruk

By the way on who wrote, the syrian kurdish constiution :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Kurdistan (in politics)

There were a better description of it in somewhere in wikipedia. But what I understand is mainly this PYD was not hegemonic group at first and they signed a cooperation threaty with other parties (which are mainly Barzani) so I think the constiution is result of it. It might be written by PYD but it is written to be accepted by Barzani and so they will get support etc. and they would not just be imposing their own ideology to already plural Kurdish society in Syria.

And also this is my explanation of why direct democracy is not legally recognized. Such proposal would have zero change to be accepted by Barzani, who is against all forms of decentralization.

Therefore I think the direct democracy stuff Zaher mentions are either informally accepted, or informal parts of PYD (not the self-government as a whole) So they work in practice without real leagl basis and mostly thanks to PYD's political will. However the thing is this of course makes them vulnerable to influence from PYD which is bad. But I do not think PYD wish them to be so, it is result of existence of pro-barzani kurds in Syria (which are not just a few I guess)

Here's what the Wikipedia link says:
Wikipedia

The Kurdish Supreme Committee was an interim governing body of Syrian Kurdistan, which was founded by the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD) and the Kurdish National Council (KNC), following the signing on 12 July 2012 of a cooperation agreement between the two parties in Hewlêr, Iraqi Kurdistan under the auspice of the Iraqi Kurdistan President Massoud Barzani.[16] The member board consisted of an equal number of PYD and KNC members.[17]

boomerang

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by boomerang on October 22, 2014

Zaher's article says the Social Contract (constitution) was written by the DSA. It's hard to tell from the description but I think DSA might be (at least similar to) a parliamentary form of government. I think this is different than the Kurdish Supreme Committee, because it was elected in January 2014.

Does anyone know what role the Kurdish Supreme Committee plays today, if any?

I don't think Patriotic Assembly of Kurdistan in Syria (the umbrella organization for 12 opposition parties) is in the DSA, because Zaher says they refuse to participate. But Zaher also said 4 other opposition parties do participate. I'm not sure if the Kurdish National Council is one of them.

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 23, 2014

Hi everyone:
I am also listening this now, It is interesting. This is a new speech by Zaher on Rojova: http://www.mixcloud.com/workerssolidarity/anarchist-eyewitness-to-self-management-in-kurdish-syria-west-kurdistan/

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 23, 2014

https://www.opendemocracy.net/arab-awakening/necla-acik/kobane-struggle-of-kurdish-women-against-islamic-state

I found this. I recommend everyone to read it before sleeping :P Good night everyone!

klas batalo

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on October 25, 2014

boomerang

ZAHER BAHER - are you still there?

First, thank you for writing this article about what you witnessed in Rojava! :) These reports from direct witnesses are so important.

Can you tell us what is the People’s Assembly? You say this is what elected the Democratic Self Administration, but you don't explain what the People's Assembly is.

Also, to what extent is the decisions of the Democratic Self Administration controlled from below? Once the members of the DSA are elected, do they have ongoing meetings with local organizations of direct democracy to get a mandate from them? Or do they just make their decisions however they choose? And are they at least ‘instantly recallable’ (able to be voted out of the DSA and replaced in between elections)?

I'm excited by the direct democracy taking place at the level of the neighborhood, village, and district, but it sounds like when it goes higher than that, it becomes "representative democracy" (which is the way of "democratic" states – in other words, NOT real democracy).

My concern and anxiety about this is increased by the fact that the Social Contract (or constitution) of Rojava that the DSA created makes NO mention about direct democracy! The communes, assemblies, committees, House of the People, House of Women, etc., etc. -- not a word.

People in Tev-Dam say they decide, and the DSA just executes. Is this really true? I find that hard to believe, if they were able to write the Social Contract on their own, and without any mention of the direct democracy organizations that Tev-Dam believes are in control!

If DSA is not being controlled from below (by local direct democracy), then I don't see how it's different from a state, and the "Social Contract" it wrote shows that's what it intends to be! (While still claiming to reject the state!)

I'd like to hear your take on this, from someone who's been there.

(The situation is still developing, so I’m holding onto hope that people in Rojava will recognize the dangers of FAKE-democracy and change things so that higher levels of decision making and administration are always controlled from below.)

boomerang what is this from? did you talk to zaher? is this an interview with him? is this from the talk at the bookfair? is this him confirming that the DSA that was elected by the House of the People/People's Assembly that regroups the various delegates of the Tev Dem/communes movement actually operates as a representative democracy/legislative constituent assembly like i was wondering in my article for Ideas & Action?

klas batalo

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on October 25, 2014

oh i see these are questions of yours for Zaher

klas batalo

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on October 25, 2014

yes boomerang the new compass articles on the rojava situation have accounts of how people in society wanted the DSA because some people wanted parties and parliament not just a democratic movement from below...this mirrors many examples of this in history of such struggles

Democratic Autonomy in Rojava

The Highest Council, or Parliamentary Democracy?

While in many areas the Kurdish population already has decades of experience with the Kurdish movement’s concepts of women’s liberation and social freedom, here too there are of course also divergences. Some wish to organize in classical parties rather than in councils.

This problem has been solved in Rojava through a dual structure. On one hand a parliament is chosen, to which free elections under international supervision are to take place as soon as possible. This parliament forms a parallel structure to the councils; it forms a transitional government, in which all political and social groups are represented, while the council system forms a kind of parallel parliament. The structuring and rules of this collaboration are at the moment under discussion.

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 25, 2014

klas batalo
Did you wrote this? http://ideasandaction.info/2014/10/rojava-anarcho-syndicalist-perspective/
That is surprising.

By the way, Do you understand that in the article in new compass, the phare: "Some wish to organize in classical parties rather than in councils." actually refer to people who support Iraq Kurdistan related parties and thus refused to participate in direct democracy structures linked to PYD ? Zaher actually make interviews with members of such parties in his report above. You understood that correctly right?

klas batalo

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on October 25, 2014

yes i wrote that, it is signed K.B.

and yes i do understand this.

its not a good development.

don't hold up the DSA and the social contract as a good thing then, if you support the councils/communes from below... it is unclear if there are any class forces or if even those are cross class but as my article states it'd be better to support those and potentially more anti-statist women's initiatives than parties parliaments and para-militaries.

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 25, 2014

klas batalo,

So, Ok I did not know it was your signature, I will recognize it in the future. Thanks for your efforts.

I agree with you it is not the best solution however if they would abolished all other parties and "force people to be parts of direct democracy mechanisms" this would inevitably will be understood as they are not democratic at all by the wider society. Their ideals of democracy would be seen as hypocrisies. I think this situation had an affect on the final decision to form a dual government organization one on transnational representative level and other on local, on Canon level. Though it is still a mistery for me: how this structure will be affected by the Duhok Agreement for example.

klas batalo

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on October 25, 2014

why would not establishing a parliament be analogous to abolishing heterogeneity within the council movement? overal it seems the PYD has abolished other parties in both, but there can still be "civil society" politicians in the DSA?

it seems that agreement means that KNC/KRG party will be able to openly operate within the transitional government...

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 25, 2014

Because the councils are not firstly a movement in a social sense that appeared out of nowhere, they are parts of political aims of PYD/PKK and not those of other Kurdish parties ( this situation is similar also for other current progressive stuff in Rojova like: "real" gender equality, decentralized forms of government, forming a multi-cultural unity rather than a national one etc...). And definitely Iraq Kurdish parties felt it like this, that is why they opposed to it and refused to participate in them. So they (Direct democracy mechanism/councils) are "probably" organisations/mechanism independent of PYD but also at the same time part of its political influence and power in a very real sense. (just as the empowerment of women, benefits the PYD as well, similar examples can be multiplied).

However I would really wish to learn what does this new Duhok Agreement mean for direct democracy, for example as now there is agreement on keeping Rojova autonomous among Kurdish parties. Does that mean would Iraq Kurdistan parties now will participate in local councils etc (thus effectively reversing their previous political position) ??? Or would it have the opposite effect of nationalizing the inter-canton government.

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 25, 2014

it seems that agreement means that KNC/KRG party will be able to openly operate within the transitional government...

Why do you think so? I think they are already part of it. however they always accuse PYD and YPG for not being democratic. I do not know for sure how this agreement will help them keep PYD and YPG in line (if they wished so they could act democratic to KNC in the first place) what will this change? How it wil effect the current situation it is hard for me to predict. however I think it is mostly a question of who win on the table.

klas batalo

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on October 25, 2014

So you are saying the democratic movement (Tev Dem) that you and other leftists are holding up as autonomy was never really democratic at all...

Wow

kurekmurek

9 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by kurekmurek on October 25, 2014

No what I am saying is you have a reading problem.

Mark.

9 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on February 8, 2015

Another article by Zaher Baher

http://www.anarkismo.net/article/27864